Socializing Was I a dick? Is this salvageable?

[Bismarck]

'tsup fellas.

From 25 August to 1 October, 5/6 different times, I fucked this woman (let's call her 35yoF(former)F(fuck)B(buddy)) I met from a tour I had given earlier in August. Though I never let her sleep over, I may have sent mixed signals due to not only fucking her. During the first night smash, I called it a "date." Also, there was plenty of cuddling and intimate post- and in-between coital chit-chat (including eventually sharing past traumas).

The woman is 35 and says she lost her virginity via alleged rape (and that the first few other times she did it she was still "dissociating" herself from it). She first got drunk at the age of 11 years old (and was older when she was allegedly raped, even if she was really drunk the night it happened and the rape shtick may simply have been an in-retrospect reputation-saving measure). She has plenty of body art and used to have piercings on her tongue and nose and stuff. She drinks too much. She loves sex (and is very skilled in the horizontal arts). She's also a very nurturing and care-giving woman.

Even if at this stage I am open to the idea of sharing emotional intimacy with a (pretty and hot) girl, I would rather she were at least 10 years my junior, and had no tattoos, piercings, or alleged rape stories to share. I would also rather be in abundance, seeing other girls, and organically and slowly transition to greater exclusivity as the emotional intimacy matures with said potential "main." I would also rather she either be in college or be college-educated. And not Gender or Race Studies, or whatever other nonsense is being taught these days, either.

So, despite the fact that she's finishing her PhD, the above 35-year-old woman was never really a candidate for the girlfriend slot. Also, being post-wall, the clock was ticking from day one, which I was fine with. On Sunday 1 October, while she was at mine and we were smashing raw as per usual, during post-coital I told her I thought she was an amazing person and she took this as a cue (she had already attempted to inquire if I was sleeping with other girls, a question I had ignored) to say she wanted to have an exclusive relationship with me, to which I told her that I thought she deserved commitment, but that I wasn't that guy. Before she left she also said that, though she and her cool housemate (a guy I met through her) had invited me to a house party on Friday 13 October, she "didn't want me to flirt" at the party. I answered her that "I'm a naturally flirtatious personality," and left it at that.

When I arrived last night, she was dressed to kill, in this figure-hugging azure blue dress. I almost regretted letting her go - this thought must have appeared and lingered in my mind for a total of 5 minutes - the total amount of time it took for a hotter and prettier woman (HPW) at the party to begin doting attention on me. I noticed that as soon as we started hitting it off 35yoFFB seemed to keep interrupting us to either place a bottle of wine at the table close to us or to pour more wine into our glasses when we didn't need it. I may have been rude then in that I simply continued chatting to HPW and didn't acknowledge 35yoFFB.

Later in the night, 35yoFFB was already drunk (speaking more or less incoherent babble) as we stood with another woman in the kitchen when she invited me to dance. I went into the living room with 35yoFFB to dance. At that point, there were already a few other people there moving their bodies slightly to the music. Shortly into our dance, I noticed HPW in the corridor outside getting her purse. Believing her to be leaving (I was thinking of doing the same, having originally intended to stay at the party only for a short while before heading home in order to still get a good night's slumber), I told 35yoFFB to "wait a minute," and went out to exchange contacts with HPW. A quick chat later, I returned to the living room, at which point 35yoFFB stormed out, a move I ignored.

When she later returned to the living room (meanwhile she had gone upstairs, where there was a sort of separate party taking place (some guys were jamming)), we danced a bit. But, as against the sort of dancing I had been doing and was still doing with other women/girls there (spinning them around and holding hands but not really grinding), 35yoFFB just wanted to grind her ass on my dick, to sort of show ownership, which was a bit offputting. I also complimented the posters decorating the living room and kitchen, including this stylish native tribal print, which I even offered to buy from 35yoFFB, and she said she had others and could give me one for free. I responded that I couldn't take such an item from her gratis, and didn't really want to go upstairs to her room to "see the other prints," but she insisted, and then upstairs I had to tell her that I didn't want any (they weren't as stylish as the one downstairs on the living room wall), to which she sulked, stumbling down the stairs and hurting herself as she went, to which I - walking behind her - held her waist for the final steps in order to ensure she was ok, and then offered to get some ice for her, since she was rubbing her elbow, which she declined.

Later, it was 1:30 a.m. or so, and I wanted to leave in order to try to sleep some hours before the maid came over that morning. I started saying goodbye to different guests at the party, and when I went to bid my adieu to 35yoFFB she said she didn't feel good because I had flirted, against her admonitions. I told her I didn't think I'd done anything wrong, and - because I respect her - even went so far as to explain that HPW and I had agreed to go on a day trip together and that that was the reason I had wanted to exchange contacts with her (because while complaining 35yoFFB spun some yarn about HPW commenting negatively to her that I'd "approached her in such-and-such a way" which is hard to believe since the vibe between HPW and me was perfect the whole night, and we've been texting back and forth this morning). I added that if I was supposed to repress who I am then I'd rather not have come to the party. Here she backtracked, saying that's not what she meant, blablabla. I also said that she couldn't criticize me for dancing with other girls. She said "It's just that I still find you attractive" or something. She wanted me to apologize but I refused to, saying I'd enjoyed the party, thanking her for inviting me, and hoping she'd enjoy the gifts I'd brought them.

But now she sort of kept stalking me and walked downstairs with me to the front door, and as I hugged her to say goodbye, and moved as if to leave, she said that I "couldn't leave like this," and was about to start listing the things she didn't like that I had done when I interrupted her and said: "I don't believe I did anything reprehensible, so I don't really owe you an explanation. Thank you for inviting me to the party. I had a lot of fun, but in all honesty, you're starting to spoil the party vibe for me with this, so it's probably best if I leave. Thanks again, goodbye!" and I heard her shout "asshole!" and slam the door behind me.

Now here's the thing. I would like to be her friend, and the people at the party were cool, so I would like to continue having access to those social circles (or to similar house parties in the future). I enjoyed the time I spent with her over those 6 or 7 weeks. She's smart and has been through a lot. And from what I could understand - if the stories she told me were true - she has been good to various guys in the past (including stopping one from committing suicide).

Also, admittedly this is uncharted land for me since I don't have much social experience with handling jealous girls with panache and managing to keep them around. I'm also a bit low on empathy, due to repressing emotions for a good portion of my life as a coping strategy that began when dealing with adversity on the home front as a kid, so don't yet fully trust myself in situations such as these.

Questions:

• From the above, did I do anything wrong?
• What (if anything) can I do to make things right?

 

[Mr.SocialAcceptableHarem]

I mean if she wants relationship and you want fwb, how long can you really keep her around?

Eventually she’s gonna leave bc she’s not getting what she wants

And once you guys break it off, you can’t really have access to her friends

It’s the price of being a lover, you get to keep multiple women happy but can never commit to one, so things have an expiration date unless chose to be exclusive with one of them

and even ltr’s end at some point, just lasts longer

I don’t think you can be with this girl considering how things ended, and you already set boundaries so being around her is just being around someone who won’t except that frame and those boundaries which is bound to create tension, which is exactly what happened at the party

But everything else you did was solid, you didn’t fold even when she was bugging you, good to keep composure

nice report ,

Biggus

 

[rockstar]

Really well written FR

Questions:

• From the above, did I do anything wrong?

For holding your boundaries and trying to keep this as a fwb, I don't think so. It sounds like you did really well there.

For securing access to the parties/social circle, maybe. It would have been a good move to figure out if there was anyone else at the party who functions as a social organizer or connecter for that group to befriend. So that you had another hook into the group when things were going weird with FFB.

The blowout at the end was also pretty bad for you of course.

I don't believe I did anything reprehensible, so I don't really owe you an explanation.

You're holding onto the frame really strongly here. I think you do a really good job of not getting stuck in explaining or discussing this. But this response is really dominating. You're just shoving your frame over the top of hers. And I think her reaction is pretty predictable given her type.

Since it sounds like you'd rather be friends with her and have access to her parties, you don't need as much respect from her. I wonder what the result would have been if you went more in the frame-flip direction again like here:

I added that if I was supposed to repress who I am then I'd rather not have come to the party. Here she backtracked, saying that's not what she meant, blablabla.

So something like "I'm sorry, I really don't understand what you want from me here. Did you not want me to talk to anyone else here? Why did you even invite me? Listen, I appreciate that you asked me to come and I was looking forward to having fun and meeting your friends. But I feel like it's bothering you whenever I interact with anyone else. I don't want to upset you, but why am I here if I'm not allowed to enjoy the party? Honestly, this is all making me feel really uncomfortable and unwelcome." (you don't need to deliver it all at once of course, just take the general idea)

It's very possible she might have just kept arguing with you here. And you still would have had to just eject right after. But I also think leaving under the weaker, lower-power frame of "You're making me feel uncomfortable and unwelcome" is better than "I didn't do anything wrong and I'm not going to let you shame me into apologizing" for moving her to the friendzone, and being light enough on her ego so that she'll back down a bit or even apologize later.

What (if anything) can I do to make things right?

Ideally you would have friendzoned her before the party, but of course you didn't know that was something you wanted. I often try to feel out what girls' social lives are before sleeping with them as I value good female friend connectors more than hookups. But with these sorts of little private parties, you usually don't know the vibe until you go anyway (and most are lame).

I don't have a good answer here, but I'd be really curious if you figure something out. I imagine it's going to be hard to back off of how strong you were before, and her ego is not going to want to let her apologize there.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

The chick wants an exclusive relationship with you. That is entirely up to her. That is self generated and can't be modified. As the great poet said, when a woman's mind is made up, ain't nothing you can do about it. (c) Robert Kelly

If* you made a mistake, it's the amount and frequency of the hookups, along with not setting boundaries from the outset.

*I don't think you did. I think she made a mistake bringing you into her social circle and also being delusional about her options

But... women don't care about promises, rules, boundaries, contracts, marriage vows. Even when they tell God that they won't do something, they end up backsliding. I would say something about Top G here, but I don't want to derail the convo.

The FB relationship is inherently unstable. The only way to have played this was to sleep with the girl less, infiltrate her social circle and "deescalate" your "relationship".

Even that's not likely. Too many variables outside of your control.

In terms of remedy, you probably can sleep with her again, and keep that aspect going. You'll just be "using" the girl for sex, in her eyes. It doesn't matter if she materially benefits, you're still the villain because you won't give her exclusivity. That's their "logic". But girls sleep with "toxic" men like it's going out of style. It's as if they like the labor, they like trying to convince you.

You can intermittently reward that behavior to keep her fantasy going, but....

The question really is can you knowingly be that guy? Use the chick for sex and try to sleep with her friends. I'll leave that up to you to work out.

If it's just social circle access - you need to be the stronger draw than FB is. Possible if you're a local celeb (or drug dealer), otherwise no.

 

[Bismarck]

Thanks for your measured responses guys!

I just sent her an audio message basically taking excerpts from your suggestions rockstar ("Thanks for inviting me to the party, I had a great time meeting your friends until later, when I started feeling unwelcome and uncomfortable, because I felt like it was bothering you whenever I interacted with girls, in particular single girls, and then you seemed pretty angry at the end. Anyway, I hope you're feeling better. Sending you good thoughts and wishing you a wonderful week. Ciao", but I noticed that I still didn't apologize so this will probably lead nowhere...

Like you said, her ego was not appeased.

Edit - just saw your reply WIA. Thanks as well - just to be clear, I don't want to fuck her anymore. I just want to be her friend (in fact, I LJBF'ed her on Sunday 1 October. Apologies if I wasn't clearer about that in my OP). When I say "Is this salvageable?" I'm referring to the friendship with her and access to her social circles and house parties.

 

[TomInHo]

Yes you were a dick. But your intentions were in the right place, although could be handled better

Let me explain

From 25 August to 1 October, 5/6 different times, I fucked this woman (let's call her 35yoF(former)F(fuck)B(buddy)) I met from a tour I had given earlier in August. Though I never let her sleep over, I may have sent mixed signals due to not only fucking her. During the first night smash, I called it a "date." Also, there was plenty of cuddling and intimate post- and in-between coital chit-chat (including eventually sharing past traumas).

Calling the first meeting a "date" is not a problem so no need to overthink this. But the fact she is 35 and single should have raised some flags on how you should have proceeded with escalating this situation

The woman is 35 and says she lost her virginity via alleged rape (and that the first few other times she did it she was still "dissociating" herself from it). She first got drunk at the age of 11 years old (and was older when she was allegedly raped, even if she was really drunk the night it happened and the rape shtick may simply have been an in-retrospect reputation-saving measure). She has plenty of body art and used to have piercings on her tongue and nose and stuff. She drinks too much. She loves sex (and is very skilled in the horizontal arts). She's also a very nurturing and care-giving woman.

This may sound cold, but whenever I meet a girl and she starts telling me about how she has been raped early into knowing her, that's a red flag that she probably has tons of issues and could be crazy. So I proceed with caution

Even if at this stage I am open to the idea of sharing emotional intimacy with a (pretty and hot) girl, I would rather she were at least 10 years my junior, and had no tattoos, piercings, or alleged rape stories to share. I would also rather be in abundance, seeing other girls, and organically and slowly transition to greater exclusivity as the emotional intimacy matures with said potential "main." I would also rather she either be in college or be college-educated. And not Gender or Race Studies, or whatever other nonsense is being taught these days, either.

Okay so at this point you made the mental decision to slot her in the FWB category. I would have done the same as well but this is also were the mistakes started happening

On Sunday 1 October, while she was at mine and we were smashing raw as per usual, during post-coital I told her I thought she was an amazing person and she took this as a cue (she had already attempted to inquire if I was sleeping with other girls, a question I had ignored) to say she wanted to have an exclusive relationship with me, to which I told her that I thought she deserved commitment, but that I wasn't that guy.

In the beginning of every casual relationship expect women to probe you for commitment. It's a natural thing and they will all do it if they like you. But it's your job as the man to still lead and set the pace for how the relationship will run

And you do this not only with your words, but your actions

So sure, you saying she was amazing and cuddling with her could have cued her to probe more but there's no problem with having more emotional FWB arrangements. Only issue with them is that they take a bit more finesse to pull off because you are blurring the lines between FWB and GF

Before she left she also said that, though she and her cool housemate (a guy I met through her) had invited me to a house party on Friday 13 October, she "didn't want me to flirt" at the party. I answered her that "I'm a naturally flirtatious personality," and left it at that.

Big mistake was here.....

Remember this if you don't want drama. In the first 3 months of an FWB situation DO NOT MEET HER FRIENDS

This is extremely important and guys fuck this up all the time. Because when you go meet her friends you are sub-communicating that you are willing to be more present in her life

And in the beginning the uncertainty is high and you still haven't set a strong enough non-mono frame for that. Please believe me because I have made this mistake myself a few times. And learned that for smoother relationships, it's better to meet friends later when the dynamic between us is more settled

Ignore this at your own risk and if you get drama don't say I didn't warn you

When I arrived last night, she was dressed to kill, in this figure-hugging azure blue dress. I almost regretted letting her go - this thought must have appeared and lingered in my mind for a total of 5 minutes - the total amount of time it took for a hotter and prettier woman (HPW) at the party to begin doting attention on me. I noticed that as soon as we started hitting it off 35yoFFB seemed to keep interrupting us to either place a bottle of wine at the table close to us or to pour more wine into our glasses when we didn't need it. I may have been rude then in that I simply continued chatting to HPW and didn't acknowledge 35yoFFB.

Of course she is dressed to kill, she's trying to rope you into a relationship lol

I mean isn't it obvious?

Later in the night, 35yoFFB was already drunk (speaking more or less incoherent babble) as we stood with another woman in the kitchen when she invited me to dance. I went into the living room with 35yoFFB to dance. At that point, there were already a few other people there moving their bodies slightly to the music. Shortly into our dance, I noticed HPW in the corridor outside getting her purse. Believing her to be leaving (I was thinking of doing the same, having originally intended to stay at the party only for a short while before heading home in order to still get a good night's slumber), I told 35yoFFB to "wait a minute," and went out to exchange contacts with HPW. A quick chat later, I returned to the living room, at which point 35yoFFB stormed out, a move I ignored.

Wow!

So let me get this straight. This girl that wants to be your GF invited you to a party, then you ditch her to flirt and get the contact info from another girl directly in her face.... And now your are surprised that she stormed out???

I mean if you are going to flirt at least be more discreet about it. Just creating problems that don't need to exist

Later, it was 1:30 a.m. or so, and I wanted to leave in order to try to sleep some hours before the maid came over that morning. I started saying goodbye to different guests at the party, and when I went to bid my adieu to 35yoFFB she said she didn't feel good because I had flirted, against her admonitions.

See what I said above....

I mean it's her party, she wants a relationship from you, and she is 35, so there is no surprise that she's making demands but its your fault. This could have all been avoided with some patience

I told her I didn't think I'd done anything wrong, and - because I respect her - even went so far as to explain that HPW and I had agreed to go on a day trip together and that that was the reason I had wanted to exchange contacts with her (because while complaining 35yoFFB spun some yarn about HPW commenting negatively to her that I'd "approached her in such-and-such a way" which is hard to believe since the vibe between HPW and me was perfect the whole night, and we've been texting back and forth this morning). I added that if I was supposed to repress who I am then I'd rather not have come to the party. Here she backtracked, saying that's not what she meant, blablabla. I also said that she couldn't criticize me for dancing with other girls. She said "It's just that I still find you attractive" or something. She wanted me to apologize but I refused to, saying I'd enjoyed the party, thanking her for inviting me, and hoping she'd enjoy the gifts I'd brought them.

BS... you don't respect her and that's fine. Because if you really respected her you wouldn't shove other girls in her face like that.

It's different if one of your FWB sees you flirting with a girl in a random part of town, she just so happened to be at. It's another thing to flirt with another girl in her face, under same roof of her party. Especially when you know she caught feelings and is possessive

But now she sort of kept stalking me and walked downstairs with me to the front door, and as I hugged her to say goodbye, and moved as if to leave, she said that I "couldn't leave like this," and was about to start listing the things she didn't like that I had done when I interrupted her and said: "I don't believe I did anything reprehensible, so I don't really owe you an explanation. Thank you for inviting me to the party. I had a lot of fun, but in all honesty, you're starting to spoil the party vibe for me with this, so it's probably best if I leave. Thanks again, goodbye!" and I heard her shout "asshole!" and slam the door behind me.

Ooof

But it's still salvageable, because you can just hit her up in 1 or 2 weeks after some radio silence. Talk to her like nothing happened and if she's into you she will keep things going forward and put this drama behind her

Can blame the situation on her being drunk and acting a lil weird but you're over it now. But when you restart things I would cut out things like dates for a bit to make it a more casual vibe

Now here's the thing. I would like to be her friend, and the people at the party were cool, so I would like to continue having access to those social circles (or to similar house parties in the future). I enjoyed the time I spent with her over those 6 or 7 weeks. She's smart and has been through a lot. And from what I could understand - if the stories she told me were true - she has been good to various guys in the past (including stopping one from committing suicide).

Also, admittedly this is uncharted land for me since I don't have much social experience with handling jealous girls with panache and managing to keep them around. I'm also a bit low on empathy, due to repressing emotions for a good portion of my life as a coping strategy that began when dealing with adversity on the home front as a kid, so don't yet fully trust myself in situations such as these.

Easy way to handle jealous girls is don't put yourself in situations that drive up their insecurity. It's really that simple

The smart man is always trying to solve the problem while the wise man avoids it. So take notes on things that trigger that jealousy and drama and avoid them the best you can

And if she gives you drama, don't apologize and in fact tell her to knock it off. Kick her out or leave if you have to, so you can set a good precedent that you don't respond well to threats.... but recognize the drama was still your fault

You can still fuck this girl with minimal complications but you have to stick to the casual frame the best you can to do it

PS Forget about connecting with her friends, because that's obviously going to create a lot of issues at this stage of the relationship. It can change later but for now keep things more chill between you and her

 

[Bismarck]

Thanks for your response TomInHo! Appreciate it.

Like I said in the OP, this is all uncharted territory for me. From ages 25 to 31 I was mostly shagging tourists from my tours with no social circle involvement. I had two FWBs during that time, with whom I never met any of their friends.

So when I LJBF'ed 35yoFFB on Sunday 1 October, I thought she had got the message and wouldn't continue attempting to reel me into a relationship. My impression was she simply liked swallowing my cum these past few weeks.

And yes, I think she's nuts, even if she's smart and caring. The last time I was fucking her, I opened my eyes and looked at hers and saw the spark of craziness that Pablo Francisco so perfectly joked about in one of his skits.

So just to be clear again: I'm looking to salvage access to her house parties and a social relationship with her (friends, platonic), nothing more. I'll source my snatch from other sources. It's quite possible that HPW's opinion of me has been poisoned by 35yoFFB and that I will be unable to smash anything from the party as a consequence.

But there's plenty more fish in the sea.

Edit - I do respect her, intellectually. Not wanting her vag anymore, and never really having been her "property," what I do about securing toosh for myself should be none of her business, especially considering we fucked less than half a dozen times, no? Maybe I'm mistaken here too...

 

[TomInHo]

Thanks for your response TomInHo! Appreciate it.

No problemo

Like I said in the OP, this is all uncharted territory for me. From ages 25 to 31 I was mostly shagging tourists from my tours with no social circle involvement. I had two FWBs during that time, with whom I never met any of their friends.

Makes sense

So when I LJBF'ed 35yoFFB on Sunday 1 October, I thought she had got the message and wouldn't continue attempting to reel me into a relationship. My impression was she simply liked swallowing my cum these past few weeks.

Yeah I totally understand where you are coming from but emotions ain't logical. It will take her some time to get used to the frame you set and girls will always test to see if you're serious about what you said

After some testing, if your frame is solid they then settle down and become more understanding of who you are and how they need to show up.

So don't expect to set the frame once and she fully accepts because it usually takes some time to reach full acceptance

And yes, I think she's nuts, even if she's smart and caring. The last time I was fucking her, I opened my eyes and looked at hers and saw the spark of craziness that Pablo Francisco so perfectly joked about in one of his skits.

Those crazy girls make the best FWBs though lol.

So just to be clear again: I'm looking to salvage access to her house parties and a social relationship with her (friends, platonic), nothing more. I'll source my snatch from other sources. It's quite possible that HPW's opinion of me has been poisoned by 35yoFFB and that I will be unable to smash anything from the party as a consequence.

Okay so sex is off the table then. That means if you want to maintain that friendship, with minimal drama, you need to offer some other value beyond sex. Unless she is going to keep trying to get you in that BF role

Which means if you want to gain access to her friends you will need to deescalate things and do more platonic things with her to set the new frame. Maybe even set her up with a guy you know, so that she gets the hint that you like her as a friend but ain't selfish

So basically you still need to be warm with her and soften the blow of rejection. Because if she feels like you are only looking out for yourself she will be less likely to share her social value with you

But just like you said there's plenty fish in the sea, and this is not the only social circle that could benefit you.

Because correct me if I'm wrong, but you collected only 1 contact from that event and that was from a girl you wanted to fuck. Heard no mention of other cool guys that are connectors or cool girls that can be pivots for you in the future, so is that social circle really that valuable?

Again, correct me if I'm wrong because I can only go by what you mentioned in the report

 

[rockstar]

I just sent her an audio message basically taking excerpts from your suggestions rockstar ("Thanks for inviting me to the party, I had a great time meeting your friends until later, when I started feeling unwelcome and uncomfortable, because I felt like it was bothering you whenever I interacted with girls, in particular single girls, and then you seemed pretty angry at the end. Anyway, I hope you're feeling better. Sending you good thoughts and wishing you a wonderful week. Ciao", but I noticed that I still didn't apologize so this will probably lead nowhere...

Ahhh.... I'm not sure if trying to redo the frame over text like that is a good idea here. It's a little incongruent from your reaction at the party, and takes away from "unresolved drama" vibe you had before that might push her to reach out for more closure. I think this makes reconciling with you a little too attainable for her instead of making her feel "oh no, did I fuck it up?" which is easier to work with.

Also, the "unwelcome and uncomfortable" part might feel a little too measured for her at this point, and given her type, I imagine she's more likely to think "He's trying to sneakily blame me and take the high road", instead of "oh no, was I the asshole?" I also wouldn't have mentioned the single girls thing unless you wanted to actually wanted to try to call her out on being jealous. But I don't think this is a meaningful detail anyway.

I probably would have just let it sit for up to 2 weeks waiting for her to reach out again. I probably wouldn't have addressed if you had to be the one to text first either. I didn't say this before, just bc I'm still not that confident in this recommendation in the end. I haven't been in many situations that similar, so I'm just trying to imagine how her type is going to perceive this given your context with her.

(in fact, I LJBF'ed her on Sunday 1 October. Apologies if I wasn't clearer about that in my OP)

I missed this in the original post. I think that makes it even easier to take the frame I gave. But it's clear that in her mind she's still trying really hard to get you, and she is pretty unaware of your state of mind. As WIA said, her mind is made up, and to this kind of girl you're going to be the villian for not giving her what she wants

 

[Bismarck]

No, you're right Tom...that was defos a faux pas on my end. A black musician who seemed like an experienced player probably had the highest social value there.

And a South American girl, as well as her boyfriend. And another black dude. And an Italian. I would say these were the bangers, but there was more still. Could have at least insta'ed them.

Yeah, I just went for this hot French Canadian college student's insta (and she's ignored my ice-breaker) and the HPW who has also gone radio silent now that I proposed we meet again.

So it's safe to say I came out of there empty-handed.

 

[HoofHearted]

Good post. Lots of real world considerations in here.

What stood out to me, and what I have experience, is the sort of... symmetrical role switcheraoo, particularly as men get older. IMO, the role you played in this post ("being chased") is usually played by the woman. And the "chaser" is usually the man.

In this instance, because of the stage of life this woman is in, the typical roles were switched. Or really, it's just a value imbalance lowkey perceived by everyone involved. It's as though its unstated that you held all the sexual marketplace value, and she was chasing that because of the discrepancy. (I'm guessing, in this instance, the skewing factor is age).

Which is why we often see older women have such good game. IMO it's the flipside of the young guy punching up.

Unfortunately our heroine in the story didn't quite game you well enough...

Of course, decisions were made that led to this outcome. The post said stuff like "sharing traumas" etc etc which is lil' bit different then fuck and please get out.

I sense that you were probably never interested in anything beyond casual sex with this woman. I also sense this *was not* communicated before actually having a degree of intimacy with here. Right or wrong, whatever, but there's decision 1.

Decision 2 seems to be that you were acting like a possible future boyfriend, and maybe dangling yourself out there hoping that kitty will chase.

Decision 3, whole time, and maybe not so obviously written so feel free to easily write this off as my perspecitve-- she's gaming you. My sense is she runs better-than-average, but still not-quite-good-enough girl game. Point being, she isn't just doing nothing.


And now, since you're essentially 'being the girl' (you're goddamn gorgeous), you told her 'let's just be friends.' And, just like the girls who did this to you wayyy back when you were learning, you want to *use her for stuff*. You say you want to be 'friends'-- alright, call her on up to watch football with you. Cheeky, but what I'm really saying is you don't want to be friends. I think you want to not feel bad, and maybe not feel guilty, and still get the benefits of knowing her... just like girls used to do.

From the above, did I do anything wrong?

Such a broad question, and so vague. 'Wrong' in what sense? Toward achieving some end? I think my opinion about that is in your decisions about how to interact with her.

Morally? No one here can answer that.

I really want to believe there's a better way. A better way than those women used to deal me, when I was new and offering them too much, and them giving me nothing, in hopes that I could get something, aka 'the friendzone.' I'm not sure what this could be. Maybe, if I was in your shoes, I would consider thinking: "Fuck it. I know what you want, and I don't want that, and I'm not taking anything else from you either. Don't need it anyways, I'll get what I want somewhere else." Rather than treating a 'person' as an 'opportunity.'

You can get pussy elsewhere. And friends, and cool experiences. You're resourceful.

Having said that, I don't actually know, nor can I comment on, what you *should* do. Good luck.

 

[Bismarck]

Thanks for your thoughtful response HH!

A very interesting take indeed. You're right, operating from the "using" people for this and this frame is a bit crude, but couldn't one argue that so long as there is give and take - where you provide value and receive it in return - this is simply basic human social interaction? As Tom suggested, I can even introduce her to a male friend of mine so she can "move on."

Re. me being the "girl" haha yes I see what you mean. She's 35, which in man years is about 50. I'm slightly younger than her, so I'm hitting the age where I'm the ideal match for 18-24-year-old girls. If she was trying to game me I didn't notice. I never saw her as anything more than snatch with interesting conversation and social circle value potential.

Granted, leaving her hanging to grab the digits of HPW when she'd just invited me to dance was a bit rough. A more subtle way to stay in touch with HPW would have been to, as soon as the day trip idea was canvassed earlier on, ask her for her family name and make a mental note to later find her on Teams since she works for the same corporation as me, and then let it go, pretending I didn't want to fill her up with my juice.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

She's 35, which in man years is about 50.

 

[HoofHearted]

She's 35, which in man years is about 50.

I'm dying too. I also overvalue youth.

Just a side observation, but I've seemed to notice that dudes who are really 'sexual dudes'... don't seem to care. I've always wondered if this was a shortcoming in my own perspective, since I have never been able to hop on any grandmas myself.

Flipside, I talked to a 78 year old man and asked him for perspective. Kinda brought up the salient point that the older you get, the more 'younger' women there are to choose from...

 

[Skills]

The dynamics of a fb, then you get them friendzone and then you want to be in same social circle, is a total recipe for disaster and what happens to you is normal... is the don't shit where you eat type of stuff just a variation.... Even in clubs dealing with girls you been with and seeing them after while picking other girls is uncomfortable and stuff like this happens... She got rejected and friendzone, you have to give her time to get over it, and sometimes some women to get over it have to paint you as "enemy/or the bad man" to help with the coping get over it mechanism......

This is one of the issues with ss game and why i don't like it... Way around this is wait till enough time has passed she gets over it, and befriend again different frame sometimes this works, sometimes she just wants to try again or thinks you want to be with her again... This has nothing to do with age btw, it has to do with calibration and managing expectations and the downside of ss stuff...