FR++ what can I do to salvage this?

[girlsfollow]

Haven't been back in a while but just had an experience where I wish I had! - I made two major mistakes in reading this girl and that put off my usual solid confidence in dealing with LMR and thus missed a chance that was pretty much a done deal otherwise. What was the major mistake here and what can I do to reverse it?

SKIP TO SECOND MISTAKE FOR IMPORTANT PART

Met a girl on tinder, shes a yes+ very pretty, totally natural perfect strawberry blonde, nice skirt, and she's even brought some sexy heels along for later as I suggested. She driven and is earning very good money in a top job for her age (24).

She's quite late and has been generally quite disorganised in the lead up to the meet - Maybe partly because she is unsure about meeting someone from tinder (I'm her first). In the first nice bar I take her we connect well, shes quickly comfortable with hand touch and my arm around the back of the bench we are sitting on. Things are smooth - she's playing the game chasing very nicely, trying to not act like a fool - she is quite inexperienced clearly.... this is a walk in the park so far!

FIRST MISTAKE:
I tell her its fine shes late as she can buy the first drink (I like to see girls invest first - then generally I pay everything after that), she appears to playfully go along with that when I say it. BUT when we go to leave and I say "so you're getting this" theres a SUDDEN big change - she says really? Body language changes. She hesitates. Then seeing I did mean it - pays.... She says she almost walked off right then, she's never had to pay before and if a guy brings you somewhere its fair he pays.... - cue cold body language - not letting me hold her anymore to guide her etc - keeps space between us... generally her playfulness and chasing stops... I should have read her better and realised she would react this way - also she didn't seem to realise I was going to pay everything else - hadn't thought to mention it though I had implied it.

She warms up quite quickly int eh next bar, we sit in candlelight she really likes it - we get close again - shes more talkative now and playing again... we go and lie down outside shes totally fine about the drink now I kiss her gently and pull back.

SECOND MISTAKE:

As with all my other dates I suggest we go for pool - we have to get a train there and it happens to be where I live - usually this is sufficient to imply we are going to my place since I mention I have the table for it. She is initially resistant to getting on the train out of town (mainly because I for the first time also wasn't conviced she was down and it was a good idea).Well I plough on... we get in a taxi at the other end to go for pool

As we get to my place she realises its not a pool bar but my place and starts to get very upset - I say thats no problem lets go back, tell the taxi to turn around - damage is already done she FLIPS THE FUCK OUT (this is the first time i've had this reaction to exactly the same date on plenty of occasions - the only important variable i can see here is shes older than the average girl I date and she has a serious job). She orders a taxi to go home tell s me to leave her alone that I've ruined her night and deceived her leaving her in the middle of nowhere...

Against crazy odds i get her to take a bus back to the centre with me it was TOUGH....I try and explain I didnt mean to deceive her - but its a loosing battle initially her: "thats such a student thing to do - I'm not a student" - I feel bad and try to be nice - maybe OVERDO it- i tell her that I would be upset for months if I thought I'd ruined someones night - (its never happened to me and I pride myself on 100% happy dates so it would !)

I actually go over board and when she says actually she's enjoyed herself I say it almost makes me cry hearing her say that (Ok maybe I need to drink more when not on dates lol). Anyway all the bars are closed so she orders a cab to her place - surprised - I dont even ask. She pours me a drink we watch a film in her living room (she shares) I escalate very gently -, i get her simulating sex on top of me with her skirt hiked up - she gets super turned on, I flip her over and spank her she loves it, finger her through her thong get her to beg for me inside her and she does tells me "I desperately want you inside me but I'm a good girl, no matter how much I want to I wont" she tells me repeatedly she needs to go to sleep, I suggest I join her she says she wont be able to sleep with someone else there - basically NO - I could have probalbly broken this but after the earlier mistakes I decide to not seem desperate and leave without a fight (3rd mistake - I know what to do here!).. we walk out to wait for the taxi I finger her while we are waiting outside and put the fingers in her mouth as it arrives - she LOVES it make her tell me she wants it again but leave...

We text, also next day she sends me a breakfast pic. She says she's been signed up to a marathon I say:

I'll be super proud of you if you make it! Didn't realise you'd try to get so fit for me so quickly!

this was after she'd just asked why exercise was so important to me. - SHE HASNT REPLIED since i sent it SAT - I tried calling a few days later (we had called previously quite frequently) no pickup.... Ive left it since. Was I too cheeky? I'm guessing its something bigger - maybe she feels she can't date a "student" (even if I'm a grad student with a job that was out of school before returning)?

 

[Rtodd201]

Re: FR++ and FU - what can I do to salvage this?

Hey man,
I read your post and wanted to drop a line.

Mistake 1: This was more than likely just a miscommunication. If you're gonna do the "you're paying first" or even dutch routine you have to make it clear BEFORE wallets start coming out. You can't stammer or imply anything or you'll come across as cheap.

She probably didn't hear or comprehend what you were saying. You recovered like a champ so no big deal.

Mistake 2: Without the full context of the situation its hard to tell for sure but here goes. What I do if I get called for my "tactics" is just basically agree and amplify. So my frame would have been: Yeah, this is my place, I love it and its got a great pool table and bar. I want to fuck you and I'm going show you a good time mixed in with some surprises along the way. I'm a cool guy and if that doesn't match what you want, theres the door.

She met you on Tinder, she knows youve got options.

Finaly, that last text might not have helped. Ive noticed that sending a text calling a girl out for changing or doing something for you BEFORE youve slept together afew times usually doesnt go over well. Its a solid frame to throw out but it doesnt always hit.

Hope that helps, good luck out there

Rocco

 

[girlsfollow]

Re: FR++ and FU - what can I do to salvage this?

Hey man,
I read your post and wanted to drop a line.

Mistake 1: This was more than likely just a miscommunication. If you're gonna do the "you're paying first" or even dutch routine you have to make it clear BEFORE wallets start coming out. You can't stammer or imply anything or you'll come across as cheap.

She probably didn't hear or comprehend what you were saying. You recovered like a champ so no big deal.

Mistake 2: Without the full context of the situation its hard to tell for sure but here goes. What I do if I get called for my "tactics" is just basically agree and amplify. So my frame would have been: Yeah, this is my place, I love it and its got a great pool table and bar. I want to fuck you and I'm going show you a good time mixed in with some surprises along the way. I'm a cool guy and if that doesn't match what you want, theres the door.

She met you on Tinder, she knows youve got options.

Finaly, that last text might not have helped. Ive noticed that sending a text calling a girl out for changing or doing something for you BEFORE youve slept together afew times usually doesnt go over well. Its a solid frame to throw out but it doesnt always hit.

Hope that helps, good luck out there

Rocco

Appreciate your input dude, I agree with your points. Interesting way to deal with the call out - quite funny she's actually told me earlier on that she resented her ex for having used good old mystery tactics on her that worked (shed realised after reading the game lol). So anyway - yeh I should have just made it more clear to her - I will in future - if i'd made it more clear it would have been fine!


Update is that I left it for 3 weeeks and texted again, but as soon as I tried to even hint at anything sexual she cooled down totally again. I prob should have just been a little lame and played along talking neutrally for a bit to build back rapport but I've been with 2/3 other girls since and she's not a priority - they can waste time!

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

Re: FR++ and FU - what can I do to salvage this?

Hey homie,

Rtodd correctly identified the first problem. She thought you were kidding, you weren't. I always mention it before going to the bar/restaurant "hey, is it cool if we split the check?" The one time I waited until the end, the girl got pretty mad (not to me, but I heard it from her friends). It's all about setting expectations, in the same way you set expectations for a relationship, etc.

As for her freaking out when you brought her to your place and then flipping like a switch bringing you to her place...

I think this bitch is crazy.

I did not see her taking you back to her place - AT ALL. You obviously were quite genuine in your apology, but, something doesn't seem right. Very inconsistent, and not even in the typical "gurl logic" way. Just weird.

My advice: cut her off.

Anatman

 

[girlsfollow]

Re: FR++ and FU - what can I do to salvage this?

Hey homie,

Rtodd correctly identified the first problem. She thought you were kidding, you weren't. I always mention it before going to the bar/restaurant "hey, is it cool if we split the check?" The one time I waited until the end, the girl got pretty mad (not to me, but I heard it from her friends). It's all about setting expectations, in the same way you set expectations for a relationship, etc.

As for her freaking out when you brought her to your place and then flipping like a switch bringing you to her place...

I think this bitch is crazy.

I did not see her taking you back to her place - AT ALL. You obviously were quite genuine in your apology, but, something doesn't seem right. Very inconsistent, and not even in the typical "gurl logic" way. Just weird.

My advice: cut her off.

Anatman

Thanks for the input bro, I agree with the first part of your post totally. The second part though I disagree - I think I just came across as trying to deceive her and a liar. She still wanted to do something with me but that was overridden by the deception and anger... once I calmed her down she went back to wanting to spend time with me etc.. The question is how to fix it - this girl was good material

 

[Chase]

Re: FR++/FU: what can I do to salvage this?

GF-

Girls flipping out then warming back up is a great way to shoot sexual tension through the roof. If you make her hate your guts first, then like you again later, the sex energy in the air gets positively electric.

When she's clearly chasing you very hard, telling her to pay is iffy. Usually better if you just lean back and let her get it; if she's genuinely chasing, she will... if it was just a game and she was being flirty, she'll be weird about it or ask you to get it.

If you're going to tell her to pay (say, because she's late), especially if she isn't paying immediately after you say it but later on down the line, it's best to make it clear that a.) you mean it, but b.) you're not just trying to use her for her wallet (people detest feeling 'used'). A very good way to do this is to say, "Haha, all right, you can make it up to me by getting the first round of drinks. I'll get everything after that."

The pull back to your place is... yeah. Usually your reaction here is super important - stay smooth, calm, chill... but you already know all that, and sometimes girls will still freak out regardless of how smooth you are and how into you they were earlier if they aren't used to moving that quickly with you (also, the longer the distance you have to pull them to get there + the more overcoming of objections you had to do to get them there without firmly resolving those rejections, the more likely they generally are to flip out later due to the build up of unresolved questions and them consciously stuffing their uncertainty about traveling this far out into the middle of nowhere with someone they've just met).

You handled that whole episode amazingly well - I'm pretty impressed at the persistence you broke out there and your savvy at navigating the meandering emotions and accusations she was throwing out at you, to the point where she changed her mind and took you back to her home (girls are crazy, eh?).

Once you were at her place, you really needed to pull out all the stops to try and escalate though - you're never going to get a night with sexual tension ratcheted up as high as it is as one where she's fought with you repeatedly, then made nice with you, then almost left, then changed her mind, then proactively pulled YOU home HERSELF. There're really only two ways a night like that ends: sexual fireworks ("WOW, what a night!!!!"), or wet-noodle disappointment ("Ugh... I can't believe after ALL THAT BUILD UP he didn't give it to me and just went home. I feel like a popped balloon").

I understand not wanting to persist too strong but... she invited you to her place, homie. I'd try everything I could try here:

"Before I go, you haven't shown me all the rooms yet... kitchen... bedroom..."

(when reaching her bedroom) "I'll go in a minute, but here, let's warm up your bed for you so it's nice and cozy when it's bed time... we'll just be in it for a minute..." (climb under her covers and have her join you - escalation goes much more smoothly under covers)

Start blaming her for your arousal: "You are terrible... look at this... (put her hand on your cock) this is your fault... look at how you're affecting me... girls shouldn't be allowed to go outside looking at hot as you do..."

The marathon text: why not turn that into an invitation? Keep it sexual, not platonic / feelgood / buddy-like, that's not the role she wants you in. For instance:

"That's so awesome. We should get together again so I can help you prepare your body for that experience. I'm an expert at things like that."

Chase

 

[girlsfollow]

Re: FR++/FU: what can I do to salvage this?

GF-

Girls flipping out then warming back up is a great way to shoot sexual tension through the roof. If you make her hate your guts first, then like you again later, the sex energy in the air gets positively electric.

When she's clearly chasing you very hard, telling her to pay is iffy. Usually better if you just lean back and let her get it; if she's genuinely chasing, she will... if it was just a game and she was being flirty, she'll be weird about it or ask you to get it.

If you're going to tell her to pay (say, because she's late), especially if she isn't paying immediately after you say it but later on down the line, it's best to make it clear that a.) you mean it, but b.) you're not just trying to use her for her wallet (people detest feeling 'used'). A very good way to do this is to say, "Haha, all right, you can make it up to me by getting the first round of drinks. I'll get everything after that."

The pull back to your place is... yeah. Usually your reaction here is super important - stay smooth, calm, chill... but you already know all that, and sometimes girls will still freak out regardless of how smooth you are and how into you they were earlier if they aren't used to moving that quickly with you (also, the longer the distance you have to pull them to get there + the more overcoming of objections you had to do to get them there without firmly resolving those rejections, the more likely they generally are to flip out later due to the build up of unresolved questions and them consciously stuffing their uncertainty about traveling this far out into the middle of nowhere with someone they've just met).

You handled that whole episode amazingly well - I'm pretty impressed at the persistence you broke out there and your savvy at navigating the meandering emotions and accusations she was throwing out at you, to the point where she changed her mind and took you back to her home (girls are crazy, eh?).

Once you were at her place, you really needed to pull out all the stops to try and escalate though - you're never going to get a night with sexual tension ratcheted up as high as it is as one where she's fought with you repeatedly, then made nice with you, then almost left, then changed her mind, then proactively pulled YOU home HERSELF. There're really only two ways a night like that ends: sexual fireworks ("WOW, what a night!!!!"), or wet-noodle disappointment ("Ugh... I can't believe after ALL THAT BUILD UP he didn't give it to me and just went home. I feel like a popped balloon").

I understand not wanting to persist too strong but... she invited you to her place, homie. I'd try everything I could try here:

"Before I go, you haven't shown me all the rooms yet... kitchen... bedroom..."

(when reaching her bedroom) "I'll go in a minute, but here, let's warm up your bed for you so it's nice and cozy when it's bed time... we'll just be in it for a minute..." (climb under her covers and have her join you - escalation goes much more smoothly under covers)

Start blaming her for your arousal: "You are terrible... look at this... (put her hand on your cock) this is your fault... look at how you're affecting me... girls shouldn't be allowed to go outside looking at hot as you do..."

The marathon text: why not turn that into an invitation? Keep it sexual, not platonic / feelgood / buddy-like, that's not the role she wants you in. For instance:

"That's so awesome. We should get together again so I can help you prepare your body for that experience. I'm an expert at things like that."

Chase

Thanks chase - really appreciate your excellent insight!

I totally know what you mean when it comes to persistence, I've dealt with a great deal of LMR in my time - and as I say I'm sure I could have pulled through here if this had been a normal evening - without the silly slight calibration mistakes! She really was being very clear that she didn't want to do anything though, it felt like she had put up the walls big time after the second mistake. It is odd that she let me finer her though - I could tell it was very much unlike her and I think thats why she was enjoying it so much! I almost get the feeling I might have let loose a tiger that night - it was SOO close (probably the remaining 0.01% was left)! I texted her trying to just be nice a while later and she replied - then I pushed with a very slightly sexual reference and she just stopped responding. Not much to do - will try again in a month or so.

 

[Chase]

Re: FR++/FU: what can I do to salvage this?

She really was being very clear that she didn't want to do anything though, it felt like she had put up the walls big time after the second mistake. It is odd that she let me finer her though - I could tell it was very much unlike her and I think thats why she was enjoying it so much! I almost get the feeling I might have let loose a tiger that night - it was SOO close (probably the remaining 0.01% was left)!

Well, here's the issue. Most of the time when you pull off these crazy nights where the interaction was in the rubbish pail and then somehow by force of will or her changing her mind or sheer dumb luck the two of you end up together when you KNOW you probably shouldn't have because you blew it earlier or the two of you just didn't click... 99% of the time, if you do not close it out then, that's IT.

So even if you're not getting a sexual vibe, you go for it. Because the probability is much, much, MUCH higher that you get it if you go for it than that you get another night alone with her if you don't.

This is different from a girl who likes you a lot and is warm with you and enjoying her time with you. That girl you can skip escalating on a few times and probably see again. Maybe you even delay a bit because you're going the boyfriend route and you don't want to rush it.

In the situation where it's crashed and then resurrected and you know it probably have shouldn't but it's still kind of off, if you get the shot, you take it, because she goes colder than a vat of liquid nitrogen immediately after you leave. Not sure if you've had too many of these situations - I think you usually do a slightly slower dating process, right? If you're doing a lot of street pickup, you'll run into this a lot - the girl who's just "ugh" on you, but somehow you end up alone together at some point. You can say, "Let me put this off until I've warmed her up to me," but that almost never happens and that was the only shot you'll get. Odds you see her again are something like 10% in my experience and usually only as a friend. Or you can say, "She isn't feeling me but screw it; life's short," and then you go for it. What're the odds here? 30% of the time you sleep with her? 40%? It's low, but it's higher than the chance you even see her again in a friend role if you just choose to walk.

Also keep in mind that girls who wanted you as a boyfriend will sometimes flip; they'll go from: Wow, he might be my next boyfriend! with stars in their eyes to Ugh, he's not qualified as a boyfriend at ALL! I can't believe I wasted my time and emotions on this as they auto-reject, to You know what? This guy's a jerk loser that I'd never date in a million years, but what the hell; I'm going to put him in a position to sleep with me because I'll bet he's good at that and I could use a good emotion-free shag. Come on asshole, do your thing, and then they put themselves alone with you, cross their arms, and tap their foot and wait for you to screw their brains out.

And then you either do it and leave them with some good emotions, or you walk and leave them cursing themselves out for letting you fool them twice - not the boyfriend OR the lover!

Just generally good form that if it crashes and you somehow end up alone with her even though the vibe is off, you just go for it. She may have just logically decided she wants sex from you, even if she kind of hates your guts. She will NOT be warm to you in this situation, and will actually be cold, but she'll let logistics happen. And then once you're inside of her she just hate-shags you silly. Don't expect much snuggling after, though.

Chase