FR++ Why was it hard to escalate?

[determined]

First and only approach of the night was a girl sitting at Union Square. She's from LA and only here for the night. Seemed interested immediately, so I moved her quickly to another spot at the square.

On our short walk I gave her my elbow, but she declined. Told her she had to take it, and she did. Now we sat together and I deep dove her. Good conversation verbally - I got to know her very well, and she's really cool - but not so great a conversation nonverbally. The tension wasn't there. I tried taking her hand at one point and she said she wasn't feeling that. I considered cutting the interaction short and looking for a more receptive girl, but stuck with it, just to see what would happen. About 30 minutes in suggested we grab drinks and she agreed, to my surprise. On the walk I gave her my elbow, but didn't feel she was ready for the hand hold.

I'm very glad I stuck with this girl, because this interaction taught me that I can really turn things around. At the bar we really got verbally intimate. Same topics, but the feeling was deeper. I did a lot of cold reading and she was amazed, saying that most people claim she's hard to read. I said that she's very easy to read, and maybe they just don't get her.

More sex and chase framing here than at Union Square because it was landing much better. More smiles from her, better eye contact, some signs of nervousness. She asked if I knew a lot of people in the city since I'm relatively new, and if I met them through work. I told her that it's very hard to meet the kind of people I want in my life by chance at work, and that it's necessary to really go out looking. I told her that I meet lots of people on the street just like I met her (Not in a "I'm a player" way, I gave her an example of some guy I met a few weeks back whom I really hit it off with). However, I said that it usually doesn't pan out, that most people are just average.

Reading what I wrote it seems like I went off on a long monologue here, but I didn't. It was interspersed with questions from her, questions from me to her, and comments about her.

She said she hoped she wasn't one of those people who didn't pan out, and I replied, "I'm here with you, aren't I?" Which was true, she was awesome. Definitely the kind of girl I want. Shame she's leaving.

By the time we finished our drinks the mood had completely changed. I invited her home and she agreed. On the way there I held her hand. No problem this time.

Got to my place and she sat too far away from me on the bed. Didn't want to be too aggressive and trigger resistance, so I took my shoes off and lay on the bed. Told her she could take her shoes off, too, if she wanted, but she declined.

We were talking and I ramped up the tension with eye contact and pauses, and very soon she said she should get going. So I started to move: I got up and sat right next to her, changed the subject, and put her leg on mine, touching it. She said she had to go again. Again I changed the subject, commenting on her ring and taking the opportunity to touch her hand. We talked about the ring for a bit, then she said she had to go again. Kissed her. She made a "that's sweet, but no" gesture, touching my chest while displaying a facial expression. Then she got up. Walked her to the door, kissed goodbye.

Any insight as to what went wrong here? Was distance a problem - maybe the fact that I was too far away from her at first made it awkward for her and prompted that first "I should go?" Or maybe I wasn't physical enough before we got to my place? With Monday's girl I was so physical the whole time, and it was super natural as soon as we got to my place for me to have my way with her. With this one the transition from sitting on my bed to escalating was a little more forced. Or did I make a mistake earlier on?

 

[Grand Pooba]

Hey determined, nice FR and glad to see you stuck through the interaction despite initial resistance.

Comments/Observations:

I told her that I meet lots of people on the street just like I met her (Not in a "I'm a player" way, I gave her an example of some guy I met a few weeks back whom I really hit it off with). However, I said that it usually doesn't pan out, that most people are just average.

She said she hoped she wasn't one of those people who didn't pan out, and I replied, "I'm here with you, aren't I?" Which was true, she was awesome. Definitely the kind of girl I want. Shame she's leaving.

I question the kind of frames you set here, at least to me it seems to be more boyfriend-y or friendly, and less sexual. Would like to hear other people's thoughts on this, though, as I don't feel I have this arena under control yet to be able to give good advice.

I invited her home and she agreed. On the way there I held her hand. No problem this time.

How did you hold her hand? There are many different ways to hold a hand, and they communicate different things.

Got to my place and she sat too far away from me on the bed. Didn't want to be too aggressive and trigger resistance, so I took my shoes off and lay on the bed. Told her she could take her shoes off, too, if she wanted, but she declined.

It seems to me that this is the moment where things started to go bad. In playing it safe: not being "too aggressive," not having her take her shoes off when she walked into your place, and also not having her sit next to you in a more intimate setting, you sowed the seeds of her later resistance.

Kissed her. She made a "that's sweet, but no" gesture, touching my chest while displaying a facial expression. Then she got up. Walked her to the door, kissed goodbye.

It sounds like she was verbally (logically) giving you LMR, but physically (emotionally) she wanted to stay longer and wanted you to pull her back onto the bed when she got up and go for it. Have you read the GC article on the last 5%? https://www.girlschase.com/content/secre ... rls-last-5

 

[Mr.Rob]

Determined,
I really don't know exactly what it is that triggers LMR but over the past couple of weeks I've been doing some social circle game and I can only speculate. If you read my most recent field reports I have 2 girls I got intimate with. One of them gave a ton of LMR even though I was pretty sure she wanted sex. Another girl gave no LMR and was out of her clothes in seconds. What I think it came down to in the difference between those two nights was the vibe and how charged it was.

The night I got a ton of LMR was a vibe that wasn't fully charged and "on" yet it was just decent. On the next FR, actually LR, I had extreme sexual tension between the two of us and we were both wanting sex from the other. I don't have enough experience to say that interactions that aren't completely sexually charged will give mad LMR but in speculation it seems that the more sexually charged the vibe the less LMR. Though I'm highly inexperienced and can't really say either way, simply speculating.

It's kind of thought provoking as to why it seems so hard to create such a vibe with every girl you meet but I guess it improves as you level up in seduction.

Ozzo,

How did you hold her hand? There are many different ways to hold a hand, and they communicate different things.

Can you expound on this statement. I thought there was only one or two ways to hand hold and I thought they all communicated just about the same thing the only thing that would communicate different things is the vibe you project while "hand holding". For example if you hold her hand while leading her to a seduction spot whilst giving her sexy eye contact you will probably come off as a sexy lover. On the other hand if you hold her hand while giving off a "nice guy" vibe not trying to move to fast you will probably come off as boyfriend material.

-Robert

 

[Grand Pooba]

Ozzo,

How did you hold her hand? There are many different ways to hold a hand, and they communicate different things.


Can you expound on this statement. I thought there was only one or two ways to hand hold and I thought they all communicated just about the same thing the only thing that would communicate different things is the vibe you project while "hand holding". For example if you hold her hand while leading her to a seduction spot whilst giving her sexy eye contact you will probably come off as a sexy lover. On the other hand if you hold her hand while giving off a "nice guy" vibe not trying to move to fast you will probably come off as boyfriend material.

-Robert

Robert:

You correctly point out the importance of projected vibe, which is important as it shows how comfortable and confident you are in hand holding as well as moving fast, but I also think there is more nuance to it.

See this article: https://www.girlschase.com/content/datin ... who-let-go
About halfway down the page there is a section called "The Hand Test" which explains this better.

To expound on this further, I think there are many subtle ways to hold hands:
- In what position are you holding her hand? Are you "leading" her, or are you "interlocked" like a couple?
- How tight or firm is you grip into hers? How well does she reciprocate your grip and hand hold?
- Do fingers interlock? How tightly does she interlock her fingers with you? Does she interlock with you immediately or does it take her a while to get used to it?
- Is there tension in the hand hold/in your arms? What kind? It can be awkward/undesired, or it can be sexy and sensual, or it can be neutral.
- How does the rest of her body language change following the start of hand holding? Does she move closer in to you as you're sitting or walking together, so that you two are more of a "unit"? Does she follow it up by putting her arm in yours? Or is her body language cold and awkward and the physical space between you still apart?
- Is her arm firm, or is it more light? In the former she's putting in more effort; in the latter if you let go of the interlock would her arm just drop down and fall, or would she try to maintain the tension?

 

[determined]

Ozzo,

I question the kind of frames you set here, at least to me it seems to be more boyfriend-y or friendly, and less sexual. Would like to hear other people's thoughts on this, though, as I don't feel I have this arena under control yet to be able to give good advice.

Quite possible, I still make mistakes here regularly. She was only in town for the night, so being her boyfriend was out of the question. Would that make it ok to set the boyfriend frame, making her think, "this guy is great. I wish I could be with him, but since that's not a possibility at least we can share this night together?" In the future I think I'll avoid this subject. Most girls won't understand anyways.

How did you hold her hand? There are many different ways to hold a hand, and they communicate different things.

Damn, lots of subtleties here I've never thought about. Fingers interlocked, always. Usually I'll also stroke her index finger with my thumb, although with this girl I didn't. She reciprocated immediately, but didn't hold on tight; if I let go her hand would drop.

It seems to me that this is the moment where things started to go bad. In playing it safe: not being "too aggressive," not having her take her shoes off when she walked into your place, and also not having her sit next to you in a more intimate setting, you sowed the seeds of her later resistance.

Might have blown it here. Jake D. commented on this FR in my journal and made a similar comment, so it seems like the consensus. Still hard for me to read what exactly these girls' intentions are, so I don't know. Did she want sex, and I just didn't push hard enough? Or did she only want me as a friend, and pushing hard would only have sent her home more quickly? Maybe you guys only came to this conclusion because of the way I related the events, and things weren't really as "on" as it seems when we entered my place? Better safe than sorry, though, for sure, and I definitely should have commanded her more. Lesson learned.

It sounds like she was verbally (logically) giving you LMR, but physically (emotionally) she wanted to stay longer and wanted you to pull her back onto the bed when she got up and go for it. Have you read the GC article on the last 5%? https://www.girlschase.com/content/secre ... rls-last-5

Read the article again, been making that mistake lately. I should know by now that I'll never see these girls again if I let them go, so I have to stop being complacent. Gotta go all out. Physically pulling a girl who's trying to leave - have you ever done that? Sounds like a bit much.

Rob,

Read your 2 FRs, and yeah, that vibe. Seems like we're at the same spot when it comes to this, I can tell when it's on with a girl, but I can't control it. Just do my thing and hope I get lucky.

 

[Grand Pooba]

Damn, lots of subtleties here I've never thought about. Fingers interlocked, always. Usually I'll also stroke her index finger with my thumb, although with this girl I didn't. She reciprocated immediately, but didn't hold on tight; if I let go her hand would drop.

A non-tight hold is not necessarily a deal breaker; maybe you needed to build a little more comfort or be a little more dominant.
I'm a newbie with understanding hand holding but it's something I'm working to better understand, and hope to write a forum post on it in a few months as I get better. I think there is a lot of information hidden within the intensity of physical contact, hand holding in particular since it has many undertones related to a connection with someone.

Still hard for me to read what exactly these girls' intentions are, so I don't know. Did she want sex, and I just didn't push hard enough? Or did she only want me as a friend, and pushing hard would only have sent her home more quickly?

My opinion is that she seemed to be on the fence, and that a smooth push may have done the trick.

Physically pulling a girl who's trying to leave - have you ever done that? Sounds like a bit much.

xcrunner sent me this a while back when I was asking him about how to tell when a girl wants to be kissed, which shows a guy gently, then dominantly and smoothly pulling in a girl as she's about to leave, followed with a kiss. This is what I was envisioning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKHwI7xo2X4#t=60

Obviously you don't want to force her against her will, but if there's an underlying feeling that she does want it, and there's sexual tension, perhaps it could work?

 

[determined]

My opinion is that she seemed to be on the fence, and that a smooth push may have done the trick

Actually, thinking back on it, you're right. I remember feeling that she wanted to stay and wishing I knew how to help her. But I didn't... So next time I'll try this. Lets see how smoothly I can pull it off haha.

Here's my analysis, let me know if it makes sense: I created too much tension. It would have been ok had I commanded her more and made sure to position myself near her. That would have put me in control of the interaction, making it harder for her to leave (making her able to withstand more tension), and turned the tension into an anticipatory tension, which is good because she feels like it will be released soon, and she can't wait it to be released (allowing her to withstand more of it). But I didn't do those things, and so our tension was an awkward tension, quickly prompting her to leave. Does that make sense?