Your Insights Are Required

[pks391]

The religious/conservative people keep saying that sex is merely an act to reproduce and should not be abused for the sake of pleasure. I'm curious to know whether having premarital sex or casual sex is really that big of a sin? I mean is it really that wrong to sleep around? Isn't there more to sex than just babies? Please offer your insights as this is causing me a lot of moral issues. I want to have the freewheeling life but then people keep saying stuff like this. P.S. I am an over thinker. Please forgive my need to understand basic things like this.

 

[Howell]

The religious/conservative people keep saying that sex is merely an act to reproduce and should not be abused for the sake of pleasure. I'm curious to know whether having premarital sex or casual sex is really that big of a sin? I mean is it really that wrong to sleep around? Isn't there more to sex than just babies? Please offer your insights as this is causing me a lot of moral issues. I want to have the freewheeling life but then people keep saying stuff like this. P.S. I am an over thinker. Please forgive my need to understand basic things like this.

Don't worry about what these people think, they are clearly dogmatists. Don't blame them for their beliefs, pity them for their intellectual laziness.

Then quickly move on and figure out the shape of the world from an analytic perspective for yourself. Question what you mean by "sin" for starters. Then go on wikipedia and read about the history of human sexuality:

• https://www.wikiwand.com/en/History_of_human_sexuality

After that, I recommend reading some Jung, especially where he talks about the importance of developing an integrated personality and accepting and incorporating your shadow as part of your self. If you're more of a fiction guy, Ursula K. Le Guin wrote a fairly decent fantasy novel based on Jung's model of integration called "A Wizard of Earthsea".

Don't worry about what these folk say. They mean well, but they lack understanding of what they're talking about, and likely fuck like baboons (or not at all), being too ashamed of sex to view it as a sophisticated art... or even more than simply a mechanical yet shameful necessity.

Howell

Edit: P.S. I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but your title comes off as a bit entitled (in a bad way). I probably wouldn't have replied at all if I had looked more closely at it before I responded. If you want more people to respond to your posts, I recommend not saying stuff like "your feedback is required", or "you have to reply to this post", etc. It's just weird. I'm betting you just typed the wrong word in on accident though and you meant "requested" or something like that.

 

[pks391]

The religious/conservative people keep saying that sex is merely an act to reproduce and should not be abused for the sake of pleasure. I'm curious to know whether having premarital sex or casual sex is really that big of a sin? I mean is it really that wrong to sleep around? Isn't there more to sex than just babies? Please offer your insights as this is causing me a lot of moral issues. I want to have the freewheeling life but then people keep saying stuff like this. P.S. I am an over thinker. Please forgive my need to understand basic things like this.

Don't worry about what these people think, they are clearly dogmatists. Don't blame them for their beliefs, pity them for their intellectual laziness.

Then quickly move on and figure out the shape of the world from an analytic perspective for yourself. Question what you mean by "sin" for starters. Then go on wikipedia and read about the history of human sexuality:

• https://www.wikiwand.com/en/History_of_human_sexuality

After that, I recommend reading some Jung, especially where he talks about the importance of developing an integrated personality and accepting and incorporating your shadow as part of your self. If you're more of a fiction guy, Ursula K. Le Guin wrote a fairly decent fantasy novel based on Jung's model of integration called "A Wizard of Earthsea".

Don't worry about what these folk say. They mean well, but they lack understanding of what they're talking about, and likely fuck like baboons (or not at all), being too ashamed of sex to view it as a sophisticated art... or even more than simply a mechanical yet shameful necessity.

Howell

Edit: P.S. I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but your title comes off as a bit entitled (in a bad way). I probably wouldn't have replied at all if I had looked more closely at it before I responded. If you want more people to respond to your posts, I recommend not saying stuff like "your feedback is required", or "you have to reply to this post", etc. It's just weird. I'm betting you just typed the wrong word in on accident though and you meant "requested" or something like that.

Hey Howell, thanks for the feedback and for the link. It was really beginning to bug me about all these religious people trying to change my ideas by attacking my morals. Btw, you're right I made a mistake in typing the title as my head isn't working straight right now.

 

[trashKENNUT]

pks391,

sex is really that big of a sin? I mean is it really that wrong to sleep around? Isn't there more to sex than just babies?

This is a difficult question but since i am from decently religious background that went to religious school every sunday and the occasional tuition on tuesdays, i try to answer this the best way that i can.

sex is really that big of a sin?

I like to point that you can't have a satisfying answer for this. It's either you totally let go of your religion like most guys do or you go out there and study and research it for yourself. This might also mean you go meet many religious people, study histories and religious books. It does not necessarily mean you need to study everything but you essentially study to know why they are against it. For studying history, it helps you to let you know why sex is wrong was introduced at the time.

Don't tell people you want to know why. Because to find truth, you need to search for yourself. Okay, next question.

I mean is it really that wrong to sleep around?

According to historical reasons, there were reasons why it was in place. Just like Singapore, British made it a heaven for foreigners to not have tax, like modern day Monaco and Dubai.

So yea, go and read up abit.

Isn't there more to sex than just babies?

To be honest, it doesn't. The purpose of life from a biological standpoint is seeing ourselves in children. Which is why parents lie, and your parents generation and the subsequent generation will always have power struggle.

It's all about sex, power, survival. That is at biological/core level.

Conclusion:

I highly recommend go and find out for yourself. See through your religious teachers bullshit. See through my bullshit. See through your friends bullshit. Essentially go out there and find out for yourself. In the mean time while doing that, date and sleep with girls.

and if you ever find that religion is true for you, and not because other people influence you. Then you can be religious because as past religious teachers noted. Choice.

Choice, Decision.

Zac

 

[pks391]

pks391,

sex is really that big of a sin? I mean is it really that wrong to sleep around? Isn't there more to sex than just babies?

This is a difficult question but since i am from decently religious background that went to religious school every sunday and the occasional tuition on tuesdays, i try to answer this the best way that i can.

sex is really that big of a sin?

I like to point that you can't have a satisfying answer for this. It's either you totally let go of your religion like most guys do or you go out there and study and research it for yourself. This might also mean you go meet many religious people, study histories and religious books. It does not necessarily mean you need to study everything but you essentially study to know why they are against it. For studying history, it helps you to let you know why sex is wrong was introduced at the time.

Don't tell people you want to know why. Because to find truth, you need to search for yourself. Okay, next question.

I mean is it really that wrong to sleep around?

According to historical reasons, there were reasons why it was in place. Just like Singapore, British made it a heaven for foreigners to not have tax, like modern day Monaco and Dubai.

So yea, go and read up abit.

Isn't there more to sex than just babies?

To be honest, it doesn't. The purpose of life from a biological standpoint is seeing ourselves in children. Which is why parents lie, and your parents generation and the subsequent generation will always have power struggle.

It's all about sex, power, survival. That is at biological/core level.

Conclusion:

I highly recommend go and find out for yourself. See through your religious teachers bullshit. See through my bullshit. See through your friends bullshit. Essentially go out there and find out for yourself. In the mean time while doing that, date and sleep with girls.

and if you ever find that religion is true for you, and not because other people influence you. Then you can be religious because as past religious teachers noted. Choice.

Choice, Decision.

Zac

Hey Zac, Thanks a lot for patiently and systematically answering my questions. I appreciate it. I have done a lot of reading on this. But wherever I've read mostly it says that casual sex is damaging for a marital life as well as psychologically. Maybe I've been reading the wrong material. Somehow I don't want to believe that. Also, can't sex be something of a need to fulfill an inner desire other than baby making. I mean is it really anti-nature or a misuse of nature's gift of orgasm to sleep around and have birth control to prevent what nature originally intended? I would greatly appreciate your views on this.

 

[Howell]

pks391,

Here's a video that directly addresses your questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cCyZIbpG9k

Howell

P.S. The talking starts at the 53 second mark.

 

[pks391]

pks391,

Here's a video that directly addresses your questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cCyZIbpG9k

Howell

P.S. The talking starts at the 53 second mark.

Howell,
Nice video.
I just heard the whole thing. This guy does offer a new and fresh perspective to sex. But he also speaks of a balance. The existence of an enemy. So what he is trying to say basically is a sum of both your opinion and Zac's, that its purely a choice to do or not to do and either option is not wrong it's simply a part of the balance.
This is what I gathered from it anyways.

 

[trashKENNUT]

Howell, pks391,

I just heard the whole thing. This guy does offer a new and fresh perspective to sex. But he also speaks of a balance. The existence of an enemy. So what he is trying to say basically is a sum of both your opinion and Zac's, that its purely a choice to do or not to do and either option is not wrong it's simply a part of the balance.
This is what I gathered from it anyways.

I actually listen to the video. What he meant here is something else. IT is about the fundamentals of life. Hmm... I can't say he is wrong. However i offer my opinion and see where this goes. My opinion is noted as below.

The Human Consciousness needs an expression. This is why "truth" is boring. "Truth" is nothingness/emptiness/awareness. Awareness is awareness. It has no description other than 'to be aware'. If you notice, Religion is diluted. Diluted means being mixed or poison. Why is it diluted? Because it is mix up with human desire for power, control and survival. Our human body is an expression. Electricity.... needs a toaster.

IF you study religion, you also realize some religions do not allow "God" to be described. It has coincidence that reflects similarly like "truth".

Zac

 

[pks391]

Howell, pks391,

I just heard the whole thing. This guy does offer a new and fresh perspective to sex. But he also speaks of a balance. The existence of an enemy. So what he is trying to say basically is a sum of both your opinion and Zac's, that its purely a choice to do or not to do and either option is not wrong it's simply a part of the balance.
This is what I gathered from it anyways.

I actually listen to the video. What he meant here is something else. IT is about the fundamentals of life. Hmm... I can't say he is wrong. However i offer my opinion and see where this goes. My opinion is noted as below.

The Human Consciousness needs an expression. This is why "truth" is boring. "Truth" is nothingness/emptiness/awareness. Awareness is awareness. It has no description other than 'to be aware'. If you notice, Religion is diluted. Diluted means being mixed or poison. Why is it diluted? Because it is mix up with human desire for power, control and survival. Our human body is an expression. Electricity.... needs a toaster.
Yeah, the deeper you go in stuff like this..... the more your head starts to hurt..........
IF you study religion, you also realize some religions do not allow "God" to be described. It has coincidence that reflects similarly like "truth".

Zac

 

[trashKENNUT]

Why you post the same thing?

 

[Drck]

Hi pks391,

It all depends on how important religion is for you. If religion is very important to you and you believe that God will punish you for sleeping with many women and having premarital sex, and that having sex with women is a sin, you may have lots of internal conflicts.

You will be basically actively trying to do seduction/sleep with women, while at the same time believing that you will be punished by this behavior by God. Do you go out and steal things if you know that you will go to jail? Probably not, you want to avoid being punished.

So that is no good, there is a potential for high conflict, lots of guilt and shame, lots of suppression, denial, high anxiety, possible rebellion against your religion and so forth...

We cannot help you with solving issues with your religion, you believe what you believe.

With that being said, there are lots of distorted views in many religions. Some radicals believe that killing innocent people will get them to heavens. Some believe that their God is better than any other God, and that their God is the only one to believe. Some believe that God is very strict and punishing, yet others that God is loving and forgiving.

Who is right and who is wrong? I have no clue. To me it is just a matter of BELIEF, and belief as such is based on what were you thought, how were you raised, what your parents and society believes in...

Religion and believe in God is very sensitive issue. People are willing to kill because of their convictions/believes even today.

So with that being said, IMO Religion and God are two different things. You don't have to be religious to believe in God. You don't have to worship God on Sundays at church only, if you believe that God exists you can simply worship him everywhere you go, any day and any time. IMO, we don't know if God exists or not, it is a matter of Belief, personal conviction.

There are no facts that would prove or disprove God, everything that is presented as fact can be interpreted differently: For example, One believer can say that God created Earth and the whole Universe. Scientist can claim that Evolution exists because we have fossil records and DNA/Carbon dating analysis proving that Evolution is true, and thus it is disproving God. Another believer can however say that God exists and Evolution is only a way he created Earth/Life...

So who is right? Again, it is only a matter of personal interpretation and believe of that individual... Just because X billions of people believe in God doesn't really prove His/Her existence, and just because scientists start to understand Evolution and how our Universe was created doesn't really disprove God in any way...

So we don't know whether God exists or not, it is a matter of belief. But, at the same time, we know that Religion was created by people. Different people, different cultures, different believes, different ceremonies, different worshiping and behavior of people...

So religion has good and bad aspect in it. Some good things on religion are for example emphasizing of higher morals, respecting neighbors, feeding poor people, showing forgiveness and tolerance to strangers and so forth. This in essence shows sort of Love, and there is lots of good religious people.

At the same time religions is also responsible for lots of bad things: Suppression of natural desires, lots of wars in the name of God, strict rules (abortions, sex after marriage), gay rights, women rights,... This all creates lots of anxiety, suppression, guilt, shame, feelings of insufficiency and low self esteem.... So religion can also generates lots of Hate, e.g. if one is a gay and unbeliever he or she has hard time understanding why religious people do what they do... Thus there is also a lot of rebellion towards religion, even from people who believe in God because they just don't see any point in Religious worshiping....


Religion also creates lots of perversion, lots of unhealthy views on sex, and it is all because of suppressing natural desire for other sex. I mean, the guy wants to achieve some sort of sainthood, he gives up on women because he is a Nice Guy and thus is rejected by women he wants, so he goes and becomes a priest - and next thing you know is that he is molesting innocent children, and the whole church establishment covers it. Seriously?

Just couple of days ago, I read something from religious person in sense that only those who gave up on desire for women can go to Heavens. The others have no chance, because they are not pure yet. Really? It just pisses me off, because I love women, I don't see anything wrong with having a great relationship with them. So the logic is: if there is a God and he created us humans, and if one human loves another humans and tries to express the love in a healthy way - he will go to hell because of that love. Yet the other guy, who is avoiding women and any topic on sex, will go to Heavens because he is pure. It just doesn't make any sense to me, it is just aggravating to even listen to what nonsense people worship in their own heads...

So each Religion is only as good as its members make it...

I would recommend moderate approach, simply know that some religious believes are quite unhealthy even today. You probably don't want to beat yourself up because you love girls and want to have intimate relationships with them. IMO you don't have to fear God for loving his creation, women. You don't want to believe that you will burn in Hell just because you had sex before you marry that girl, it is IMO silly as marriage is also a creation of man. Know that it is year 2015 and not 1515, thus you probably want to express yourself in more healthier way then people who are stuck with everlasting punishment because are terrified by Sin of having sex with woman. Chances are, that people who are telling you that you will go to Hell because of your sins are exactly like you - they never saw God either, they only heard or read about him. They only heard what sins are, and they never even thought why Sin is considered Sin at first place. Chances are they that believe because they were raised in that religion and so on... Chances are, that they also desire opposite sex, thus if you go to Hell you will at least have a great company, LOL. At the same time, avoiding e.g. girls that are taken/married is not a bad idea either, if nothing else it shows respect to other men and it shows good morals as well...


But again, who am I to judge. The least thing I want is to bring some furious beast with ten horns and seven heads, spiting flames and burning every soul in dust upon you...

 

[pks391]

Hi pks391,

It all depends on how important religion is for you. If religion is very important to you and you believe that God will punish you for sleeping with many women and having premarital sex, and that having sex with women is a sin, you may have lots of internal conflicts.

You will be basically actively trying to do seduction/sleep with women, while at the same time believing that you will be punished by this behavior by God. Do you go out and steal things if you know that you will go to jail? Probably not, you want to avoid being punished.

So that is no good, there is a potential for high conflict, lots of guilt and shame, lots of suppression, denial, high anxiety, possible rebellion against your religion and so forth...

We cannot help you with solving issues with your religion, you believe what you believe.

With that being said, there are lots of distorted views in many religions. Some radicals believe that killing innocent people will get them to heavens. Some believe that their God is better than any other God, and that their God is the only one to believe. Some believe that God is very strict and punishing, yet others that God is loving and forgiving.

Who is right and who is wrong? I have no clue. To me it is just a matter of BELIEF, and belief as such is based on what were you thought, how were you raised, what your parents and society believes in...

Religion and believe in God is very sensitive issue. People are willing to kill because of their convictions/believes even today.

So with that being said, IMO Religion and God are two different things. You don't have to be religious to believe in God. You don't have to worship God on Sundays at church only, if you believe that God exists you can simply worship him everywhere you go, any day and any time. IMO, we don't know if God exists or not, it is a matter of Belief, personal conviction.

There are no facts that would prove or disprove God, everything that is presented as fact can be interpreted differently: For example, One believer can say that God created Earth and the whole Universe. Scientist can claim that Evolution exists because we have fossil records and DNA/Carbon dating analysis proving that Evolution is true, and thus it is disproving God. Another believer can however say that God exists and Evolution is only a way he created Earth/Life...

So who is right? Again, it is only a matter of personal interpretation and believe of that individual... Just because X billions of people believe in God doesn't really prove His/Her existence, and just because scientists start to understand Evolution and how our Universe was created doesn't really disprove God in any way...

So we don't know whether God exists or not, it is a matter of belief. But, at the same time, we know that Religion was created by people. Different people, different cultures, different believes, different ceremonies, different worshiping and behavior of people...

So religion has good and bad aspect in it. Some good things on religion are for example emphasizing of higher morals, respecting neighbors, feeding poor people, showing forgiveness and tolerance to strangers and so forth. This in essence shows sort of Love, and there is lots of good religious people.

At the same time religions also contains lots of bad things: Suppression of natural desires, lots of wars in the name of God, strict rules (abortions, sex after marriage), gay rights, women rights,... So religion can also generates lots of Hate, e.g. if one is a gay and unbeliever he or she has hard time understanding why religious people do what they do... Thus there is also a lot of rebellion towards religion, even from people who believe in God because they just don't see any point in Religious worshiping.


Religion also creates lots of perversion, lots of unhealthy views on sex, and it is all because of suppressing natural desire for other sex. I mean, the guy wants to achieve some sort of sainthood, he gives up on women because he is a Nice Guy and thus is rejected by women he wants, so he goes and becomes a priest - and next thing you know is that he is molesting innocent children, and the whole church establishment covers it. Seriously?

Just couple of days ago, I read something from religious person in sense that only those who gave up on desire for women can go to Heavens. The others have no chance, because they are not pure yet. Really? It just pisses me off, because I love women, I don't see anything wrong with having a great relationship with them. So the logic is: if there is a God and he created us humans, and if one human loves another humans and tries to express the love in a healthy way - he will go to hell because of that love. Yet the other guy, who is avoiding women and any topic on sex, will go to Heavens because he is pure. It just doesn't make any sense to me, it is just aggravating to even listen to what nonsense people worship their own heads...

So each Religion is only as good as its members make it...

I would recommend moderate approach, simply know that some religious believes are quite unhealthy even today. You probably don't want to beat yourself up because you love girls and want to have intimate relationships with them. IMO you don't have to fear God for loving his creation, women. You don't want to believe that you will burn in Hell just because you had sex before you marry that girl, it is IMO silly as marriage is also a creation of man. Know that it is year 2015 and not 1515, thus you probably want to express yourself in more healthier way then people who are stuck with everlasting punishment because are terrified by Sin of having sex with woman. Chances are, that people who are telling you that you will go to Hell because of your sins are exactly like you - they never saw God either, they only heard or read about him. They only heard what sins are, and they never even thought why Sin is considered Sin at first place. Chances are they that believe because they were raised in that religion and so on... Chances are, that they also desire opposite sex, thus if you go to Hell you will at least have a great company, LOL. At the same time, avoiding e.g. girls that are taken/married is not a bad idea either, if nothing else it shows respect to other men and it shows good morals as well...


But again, who am I to judge. The least thing I want is to bring some furious beast with ten horns and seven heads, spiting flames and burning every soul in dust upon you...

Nicely said drck, you just coined many of my own personal beliefs in your post. Thanks for that!!

 

[trashKENNUT]

pks391, Drck,

I like to say something but for now i guess i prefer to avoid digging deeper. I hope you get your answer pks391. That's the most important.

Zac

 

[ray_zorse]

Religion means "owning" as many people as possible for the benefit of those administering the religion. The ownership proceeds by generating mental investment. One way of generating mental investment is by banning people from doing things they basically can't avoid doing, such as masturbating, having sex, using birth control... another way is by having a long and complicated "book" that doesn't make much sense and is too long-winded and rambling to comprehend properly, thus requiring/allowing the sages of the religion to provide interpretations (the book itself being so self-contradictory that any desired interpretation can be teased out of it). This also, like the ban on sex, generates lots of mental investment in the form of guilt and worry at not knowing what the rules are.

Ethics, or morality if you want to call it that, on the other hand is an innately human characteristic that arises from our evolution as social animals that live in communities. Basically the community is more likely to survive if its members behave fairly and ethically. Psychopaths, through some genetic quirk or social maladaptation, lack this trait, their behaviour is so weird that it makes you realize how strongly the trait exists in the normal population. And, obviously, there is no ethical issue with consensual, casual, sex, or masturbation, or any similar practices such as anal/oral sex, or using birth control, for consenting adults. You will also find religious people engaging in exactly the same practices, and even more enthusiastically, but expediently and in secret with no form of moral restraint whatsoever (I'm sinning anyway, I may as well do it with an 11-year old child who has been entrusted to my care... or since my neighbour is a heathen it's fine to destroy him and take his shit [in this case the "book" is Mein Kampf obviously]... etc).

Ray

 

[trashKENNUT]

ray_zorse,

Religion means "owning" as many people as possible for the benefit of those administering the religion.

In some ways, yes. In history, it is noted that Prophets get fairer women. They call it spoils of war. The other members get their fair share of concubines later on after Prophets pick their share first.

There are many ways to look at it. Prostitution was high too. Some historians argue taking women for concubines as second wifes. You can say they are looking for sex just as much as men today. Also, Some historians argue that concubines and slave womens were preferred because of fear that women betray their harems of the owner and run back to their own family.

There are also arguments that slave womens were treated like first wifes. They ate the same thing. They wore the same thing. This can be bias as i have not yet dig deep and read other historians.

One way of generating mental investment is by banning people from doing things they basically can't avoid doing, such as masturbating, having sex, using birth control... another way is by having a long and complicated "book" that doesn't make much sense and is too long-winded and rambling to comprehend properly, thus requiring/allowing the sages of the religion to provide interpretations (the book itself being so self-contradictory that any desired interpretation can be teased out of it).

The thing about most humans is that they are operating from a bias perspective. There are only two ways to look at religion.

History mode
or
Objective mode

The point of looking at religion in history mode is to understand what actually happen at that point in time. The series of events that led to certain things being implemented. There are bias. So we need more than one history book to actually have an idea what is happening at that point in time of human lifes.

The point of looking at religion in objective mode is to understand why things were done in a certain manner. There is always bias. Then, we need to know whether the environment was explain in a non-bias manner so that we know that the things they done was actually to manage what happen at that point in time.

I understand people want to dismiss religion easily but if you learn more, you can deflect people and beat them at their own game. I highly recommend don't do this once you know more about religion and you know how to tear them down, plus you applying with emotions like moral superiority and tactics of argument like shutting people out. Most religious people argue with emotions and not humble and logic.


p.s: SORRY FOR THE UNEXPECTED OUTBURST. I know people who truly want to find truth for themselves. So pardon me.

Zac

 

[pks391]

pks391, Drck,

I like to say something but for now i guess i prefer to avoid digging deeper. I hope you get your answer pks391. That's the most important.

Zac

I did not get an 'answer' per se. But i did get an interpretation of what should be done. Thanks for your views, they helped me form a better understanding of stuff.

 

[trashKENNUT]

pks391,

I did not get an 'answer' per se. But i did get an interpretation of what should be done. Thanks for your views, they helped me form a better understanding of stuff.

What are you looking for, Do you feel something amiss?

Zac

 

[pks391]

pks391,

I did not get an 'answer' per se. But i did get an interpretation of what should be done. Thanks for your views, they helped me form a better understanding of stuff.

What are you looking for, Do you feel something amiss?

Zac

Zac,
Not at all, I found what I was looking for. Thanks for your help. .

 

[trashKENNUT]

pks391,

I did not get an 'answer' per se. But i did get an interpretation of what should be done.

Not at all, I found what I was looking for.

I won't go further details with two different answers that was given. Just apologies if i did do say things that you feel you get knock off.

Zac