LR Are there some girls whom you just cannot bed on the first date, or is it always an execution problem?

[Atlas IV]

Reflecting on a failed seduction that just happened. Here’s the rundown:

Met this girl on the plane heading back to Bangkok. She was sitting next to me, along with a friend. Very cute, 20 years old, spoke good English. We chatted a little and exchanged Instagrams.

A couple of days later, I replied to one of her stories and pinged her. She responded instantly, and we agreed to meet for coffee that afternoon.

Met her at a cafe a couple of metro stations from where I live (she took a taxi almost 45 minutes to get there, which I take as a massive sign of investment). She arrived, dressed very cute/sexy.

She mentioned she was hungry, so we went to get food first instead. We got noodles, I paid. Chatted about just travel, hobbies, life here, etc. I had originally planned this to be an Informational Date, but at this point I decided I was going to go for the full seduction.

After some time, she asked where are we going next. I said there’s a nice cafe a couple of stations away (close to my house), we can go there for matcha tea. She agreed, and off we went.

Did a little incidental touching (holding her forearm/hand while crossing the road, placing hand on her lower back, etc). She stood quite close to me on the metro, and we would chat here and there but the vibe was decidedly relaxed, which was nice.

We arrived at the cafe, ordered (I paid, again), and sat down. At this point I probed a little into her dating background. She told me she had just broken up with her boyfriend a few months ago (who was Asian-American), and was accompanying her (significantly less attractive) friend in her travels around Thailand, Hong Kong and Taiwan, who has a boyfriend in each country. Crazy.

I used that to ask about the difference between dating western guys and local guys. She told me she had only ever had two boyfriends - one local guy in high school which was just “puppy love”, and then the 1-year relationship with this Asian-American guy. She said she finds westerners treat girls better. I nodded in acceptance, but didn’t push that topic further.

I fractionated into talking about her cat, which she is very affectionate with. I said it’s scientifically proven that stroking a cat relieves stress. Then I asked what her love language was, to which she answered skinship and giving, to which I replied - “that makes sense, since you’re a cat person” - to end the thread full circle. (Maybe I should have turned this into a cold read rather than relating back to her cat…)

We also talked about music. She had mentioned on the plane that she plays guitar, and I seeded the pull by telling her about the guitar I bought in Spain and that I ought to show her sometime.

After 20 minutes, I suggested we go get some ice cream. She agreed. 100% compliance so far. We made a walk to 7-11, bought some ice cream, then I casually suggested we could go to mine, which is just nearby, have the ice cream, and I could show her my guitar. Again, she complied.

We got into my place, she settled on the office chair, I settled on the bed (as is usual - I like to her the girl first sit in the place that feels central and in command so that she feels comfortable in the environment - before later inviting her over to the bed).

I got out the guitar and played a few tunes, talked a little about the music, then I grabbed my laptop and asked what kind of music she’s into. Played some of my favourite Latin music first, then invited her to come select a song.

We watched a few music videos together, then after a while I made the first move which was to take her hand and inspect her ring. She didn’t comply so well to this - she sort of pulled her hand away and even took off the ring and said “you can look at it”. In hindsight, this is a move I should have done at the cafe.

Perhaps at this point I should have taken that lack of compliance as a sign to stop escalating, but I decided to keep going. I put my arm around her and pulled her closer. At this point, I could sense some hesitation on her part. She looked at her watch and mentioned she had to go in about 10 minutes to beat the traffic.

I interpreted this to mean that I needed to move quicker. I stroked her hair a little bit, then after a few minutes, turned her head toward me for a kiss. She pulled away and said “what are you doing?”

I acted nonchalant and went back to selecting music. She excused herself and went to the bathroom. I could already sense this was bad, as if I'd triggered a fight-or-flight response in her.

When she came back, she sat on the chair far from me and said she was going to book the taxi as she wanted to beat the traffic.

At this point I really didn’t know what to do. I tried reassuring her with a gambit about how I feel like there are three levels of connection to a successful relationship - explaining the social, emotional and sexual connections, and how they are all equally essential. I asked what she thought, she said “I agree… but I think I need more time for the third one”.

I thought “well fuck me, that really backfired.”

I went back to focusing on my laptop, then tried reassuring that I don’t want to do anything that will make her uncomfortable. She said “no, it’s okay, I understand”.

It was kind awkward at this point. I realised I’d fucked this up, and didn’t really know how to salvage the situation. She got the taxi, we said goodbye, and that was it.

Really gutted with this one because she was super cute, my type, and very compliant. Will try to get her out again, but I know the chances are very slim after a failed escalation. I just don’t know exactly what went wrong.

Here are my initial thoughts:
- I got a lot of compliance from her in terms of moving her around, but didn’t attempt much physical escalation besides incidental touch, until the bedroom. I probably should have done more physical compliance tests to gauge her readiness for a pull.
- I didn’t sexualise the date much, aside from talking about love languages. Perhaps I need to go back and revise Teevster’s gambits, I just struggle to transition smoothly into them with certain girls.
- Pretty sure she was sexually inexperienced (had only had a single proper boyfriend, and it sounded like he took things slow with her). I'm a believer that it's possible to bed most girls on the first date with the right skills, but maybe there are exceptions for young inexperienced girls from more conservative cultures?
- It was during the daytime (not a dealbreaker, but most of my first date lays have happened at night - it's easier to get into a seductive vibe).

I know I could have done things better with properly executed sex talk gambits, smoother physical escalation, and perhaps better comfort-building, but I can't think of anything I did that was critically wrong here to warrant the sort of knee-jerk bad reaction I got from her. This makes me wonder whether this is a girl I just couldn't have slept with on the first date, and I should have kept it an Information Date and saved the escalation for a second.

But again, I want to believe it is possible to sleep with any girl on the first date, so I'd like to figure this out.

What are your thoughts, gents? Would love to hear some outside opinions.

 

[Stark]

I had a similar first date(with a similar outcome) with a girl l met during daygame last week.

During the deep dive, she revealed that she only had 2 long term boyfriends. She's used to taking her time before getting to sex for the first time with someone new.

We also talked about music. She had mentioned on the plane that she plays guitar, and I seeded the pull by telling her about the guitar I bought in Spain and that I ought to show her sometime.

After 20 minutes, I suggested we go get some ice cream. She agreed. 100% compliance so far. We made a walk to 7-11, bought some ice cream, then I casually suggested we could go to mine, which is just nearby, have the ice cream, and I could show her my guitar. Again, she complied.

Great compliance so far.

At this point I really didn’t know what to do. I tried reassuring her with a gambit about how I feel like there are three levels of connection to a successful relationship - explaining the social, emotional and sexual connections, and how they are all equally essential. I asked what she thought, she said “I agree… but I think I need more time for the third one”.

I thought “well fuck me, that really backfired.”

During my date I had escalated hard physically and there was no resistance. I had my hands all over her except boobs, ass and pussy. She resisted sex talk and gambits by jumping in and derailing the conversation everytime. I couldn't completely deliver the gambit but got her to agree she loves sex but needs TIME.

Really gutted with this one because she was super cute, my type, and very compliant. Will try to get her out again, but I know the chances are very slim after a failed escalation. I just don’t know exactly what went wrong.

I don't think you have lost the chance. If anything she felt aroused, had a connection with you, and gave you massive compliance.

My logistics are temporarily not ideal, so I couldn't pull her to my place that night.

But I texted her the day after, and she admitted she had a fun time.

During the date I had mentioned that if we were to get intimate, it has to be private and a nice place with a view(I have successfully used this to lay many girls directly on second date in Airbnb's successfully). She didn't say 'Yes' but neither denied the offer.

Since then I have asked her to watch a movie at this Airbnb with a scenic view twice, but she has declined saying she prefer to do something else with me, but not meeting in private(yet).

As you would imagine, I have given her the boot, as I don't want to deal with a sexually frigid girl, however attractive she might be.

- I didn’t sexualise the date much, aside from talking about love languages. Perhaps I need to go back and revise Teevster’s gambits, I just struggle to transition smoothly into them with certain girls.

If I were to change anything, it would be to introduce a sexual frame over texts and deliver the sex gambits within about 30 minutes of the first date. The longer the date goes on without a sexual subcommunication, the lower the chances of sex with girls like this.
--

To conclude, there indeed exist some girls who are used to the longer dating format.

One of my earlier inspirations from daygame was a poster named Yarbles(from masf) - he used to date Asian girls exclusively.

He has talked about this type of girls who needs a little more time than the usual one date. He used to do 3 dates with these types if he really wanted to lay them. The caveat is there are girls who even don't crack with the 3 dates either.

So it depends on how hot you find her and your desire to lay her.

 

[KJ Francis]

She mentioned she was hungry, so we went to get food first instead. We got noodles, I paid.

We arrived at the cafe, ordered (I paid, again)

two instances of paying to me sounds like she is seeing you as a potential provider, which means she is going to put on her good girl act in hopes of not appearing too slutty and making you her boyfriend. maybe you could have used "second gen verbals" i.e. secret society type stuff. and sex talk gambits, like you said. basically to frame yourself as the lover.

she had just broken up with her boyfriend a few months ago

so she's ready for a new one

She said she finds westerners treat girls better.

was she referring to you? does "treating girls better" mean paying for them? i.e. "all men are pigs" and only think with what's between their legs? vs. wine and dine

turned her head toward me for a kiss. She pulled away and said “what are you doing?”

lack of early sexual frame?

I didn’t sexualise the date much

I want to believe it is possible to sleep with any girl on the first date

I think this comes down to boyfriend disqualification

I know Skills pays for dates too (albeit just cheap lover dates like you did, not fancy dinners or anything). but it's probably clearly offset with major sexual vibes (lover frame).

 

[Chad Tyrone]

his makes me wonder whether this is a girl I just couldn't have slept with on the first date, and I should have kept it an Information Date and saved the escalation for a second.

But again, I want to believe it is possible to sleep with any girl on the first date, so I'd like to figure this out.

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Best answers your question

I thought “well fuck me, that really backfired.”

It was kind awkward at this point. I realised I’d fucked this up, and didn’t really know how to salvage the situation.

Happens to all of us ...next time tho I'd suggest running things normal even after a bad reaction from her and not letting it get to you .

Do a post-mortem after the interaction not during it .

It's as easy as saying to yourself,''yeah, this isn't going anywhere" but still remaining unfazed and outcome -independent .

Cause trust me girls do pick up when you are disappointed/frustrated.Been there , done that.

Being disappointed also lowers your chances of seeing her again especially after a botched escalation.But hey we live to learn .

Couple other things to note:

You came off as a boyfriend to her in a way from hand-holding to paying for her stuff.

Probing into her past relationships.Lovers don't do that...unless they know what they are doing

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At this point I really didn’t know what to do. I tried reassuring her with a gambit about how I feel like there are three levels of connection to a successful relationship - explaining the social, emotional and sexual connections, and how they are all equally essential. I asked what she thought, she said “I agree… but I think I need more time for the third one”.

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Also sounds like she is in vetting mode .

Anyway...my thoughts.

Chad Tyrone.

 

[Atlas IV]

Thanks for the input @Stark, @KJ Francis and @Chad Tyrone, you guys have really given me a lot to think about.

If I were to change anything, it would be to introduce a sexual frame over texts and deliver the sex gambits within about 30 minutes of the first date. The longer the date goes on without a sexual subcommunication, the lower the chances of sex with girls like this.

I'll definitely be doing sexual framing on the next date, though doing so over text sounds delicate. How would you do that?

One of my earlier inspirations from daygame was a poster named Yarbles(from masf) - he used to date Asian girls exclusively.

He has talked about this type of girls who needs a little more time than the usual one date. He used to do 3 dates with these types if he really wanted to lay them. The caveat is there are girls who even don't crack with the 3 dates either.

So it depends on how hot you find her and your desire to lay her.

Interesting. I tried looking him up, but I guess all his stuff has disappeared.

@Gorili posted a great thread recently about a daygamer who consistently beds Asian girls on the first date, so it could be that there's just a different formula for sleeping fast with girls like this. I guess I'll be figuring this out through experimentation.

two instances of paying to me sounds like she is seeing you as a potential provider, which means she is going to put on her good girl act in hopes of not appearing too slutty and making you her boyfriend. maybe you could have used "second gen verbals" i.e. secret society type stuff. and sex talk gambits, like you said. basically to frame yourself as the lover.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head.

The lack of boyfriend disqualifier was a critical flaw in my game. Since she has only ever really dated this Asian-American guy (who I'm guessing treated her like princess), of course she would measure any other guy against that. I actually made the mistake of telling her I had recently gotten a long-term visa, which surely set a provider frame.

Another interesting tidbit I forgot to mention - when she was talking about her ex, she sort of implied that the reason they broke up was due to the age gap - "I'm 20 and he was 27". I told her it's not about age but about the connection you feel. I found this funny though because 1. that's not exactly a scandalous age gap, and 2. I wonder how old she thought I was (I'm 31 lol).

was she referring to you? does "treating girls better" mean paying for them? i.e. "all men are pigs" and only think with what's between their legs? vs. wine and dine

She was probably referring to her ex, and by extension me. She didn't offer to pay for anything or even thank me for paying, which makes me think she assumes all men (or at least western men like us) are providers by default.

Actually reminds me of a girl I dated a few weeks ago who was somewhat identical. I dated her three times (in which I paid for everything, and she also never thanked me or offered to pay) before finally closing the deal. After the sex though, there was a lot of drama and buyers remorse, with her claiming I just wanted her for sex. We went cold for a while, then I pinged her and we met again. I could see this time though that she was actually quite narcissistic (I guess before I was blinded by the prospect of sex with a hot girl), and I decided to end things with her.

A bit of a tangent there, but I see parallels. The commonality is that I'm setting provider frames instead of lover frames (which reminds me of something @Will_V actually told me a couple of months ago, that in places like Asia and Latin America, western guys like me automatically attract the types of girls who are looking for a provider, so one must be extra conscious of setting the lover frame).

1. Second gen verbals
2. boyfriend disqualifier
3. teasing and physical escalation/compliance tests on the date

Sounds like that's what I need to work on.

Happens to all of us ...next time tho I'd suggest running things normal even after a bad reaction from her and not letting it get to you .

Do a post-mortem after the interaction not during it .

It's as easy as saying to yourself,''yeah, this isn't going anywhere" but still remaining unfazed and outcome -independent .

Cause trust me girls do pick up when you are disappointed/frustrated.Been there , done that.

Being disappointed also lowers your chances of seeing her again especially after a botched escalation.But hey we live to learn .

Couple other things to note:

You came off as a boyfriend to her in a way from hand-holding to paying for her stuff.

Probing into her past relationships.Lovers don't do that...unless they know what they are doing

Great suggestions there @Chad Tyrone. You also found a lot of articles that are highly relevant to me. That's my homework now. Thank you!

 

[TomInHo]

Here are my initial thoughts:
- I got a lot of compliance from her in terms of moving her around, but didn’t attempt much physical escalation besides incidental touch, until the bedroom. I probably should have done more physical compliance tests to gauge her readiness for a pull.
- I didn’t sexualise the date much, aside from talking about love languages. Perhaps I need to go back and revise Teevster’s gambits, I just struggle to transition smoothly into them with certain girls.

A big reason why things played out the way they did is probably because of the above.

Seems like she was enjoying your company on a platonic level because you didn't sexualize the interaction much before the pull.

That's why she said "What are you doing?" when you tried to kiss her. She wasn't primed or ready for that level of intimacy yet because of previous actions

In my opinion to reduce LMR or resistance at home it's a good idea to sexualize before so she is expecting it to happen

- Pretty sure she was sexually inexperienced (had only had a single proper boyfriend, and it sounded like he took things slow with her). I'm a believer that it's possible to bed most girls on the first date with the right skills, but maybe there are exceptions for young inexperienced girls from more conservative cultures?

Ye that's possible

Because most girls know going back to a guys place means there is potential of sex happening. She could be naive or hasn't experienced a lot men that move quickly

- It was during the daytime (not a dealbreaker, but most of my first date lays have happened at night - it's easier to get into a seductive vibe).

Time of day shouldn't make tons of difference. I've pulled girls in day and smashed on first date many times

I know I could have done things better with properly executed sex talk gambits, smoother physical escalation, and perhaps better comfort-building, but I can't think of anything I did that was critically wrong here to warrant the sort of knee-jerk bad reaction I got from her.

You have your answer right there. The things you mentioned that could have been done better would have helped

This makes me wonder whether this is a girl I just couldn't have slept with on the first date, and I should have kept it an Information Date and saved the escalation for a second.

But again, I want to believe it is possible to sleep with any girl on the first date, so I'd like to figure this out.

What are your thoughts, gents?

So I do believe you can sleep with every girl on the first date. Meaning it is possible

But the reality is you won't

Sure there are somethings you can do to increase your odds. But some girls you just won't be able to bang on the first date no matter what you do

Still think it's a good goal to figure out how to get your percentage of first date lays up. But it also pays to learn strategies on how to run longer seductions to improve your calibration and long term success rate

For me personally I noticed sexualizing before the pull gives me better insights on if a second date is needed. Things I tend to look out for

- How is she responding to my touch? Is she neutral, melting into it, or squeamish
- How is she responding to sexual frames? Is she jumping into my frames, or showing lots of resistance and selling purity
- How is the vibe? Have we had moments when she just stares at me lustfully, or is she neutral
- Has she given me any windows to pull? Did she give me any cues she wants to see my place
- Has she escalating on me? Has she touched me or brough up sexual topics on her own

Pretty much I lay on the sexual vibe pretty thick and watch her reactions. If she doesn't seem fully sold and I don't want to risk dealing with LMR I would instead focus on getting another meet and pulling then instead

 

[Atlas IV]

Planning for a First & Second Date

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Wow, this might be one of the best articles I've ever read on GirlsChase.

So many epiphanies I had while reading it.

The biggest factor that impacts the number of dates you need is what a girl's expectations are coming into the date. If she expects to vet you as a boyfriend candidate or she's just using you for social momentum, her expectations are more or less opposite from "let me end up in bed with this guy." You need to reframe her expectations before you can escalate further, and that's often easiest to do by separating the steps:

1. Reframe her expectations on the first date
2. Fulfill her new (and cemented/accepted) expectations on the second date

This is what I should have done with this girl.

At first, it seemed like she showed up with no expectations (we had only had a very brief conversation on the plane). But after what she told me about her dating history, combined with the alluring way she was dressed to our date, I should have realized very quickly that she was "boyfriend vetting" mode, and that a reframe was required, in the way Chase outlines brilliantly in this article.

The first date can be either an informational date or a structured date, depending on how much time you have to devote to meeting this girl and how much time and how many changes of venue (if any) you need to reset her expectations. You don't always need to bounce around several different places to change the frame.

The main focus is going to be on you doing things that frame you as a lover and you getting her to gradually invest more throughout the date.

So for example, you may use deep diving with close proximity and sexy nonverbals, interspersed with some chase framing and boyfriend disqualifiers, to frame yourself as the sexy lover. Meanwhile in the course of your deep diving you ask her to qualify herself and reward her when she complies, while also having her move about physically a little (show you her jewelry, scoot over in the booth, switch to another part of the venue, etc.) so you're building both verbal and physical compliance.

Do this right and the way she sees you should be changing.

She begins to feel something awakening in her that wasn't there before... she has this desire to be with you, in addition to the desire to set aside the other things she wanted from you before (to vet you as a boyfriend, to just build social momentum with you, etc.).

This should have been the focus of that first date, not simply running through the motions of venue bouncing. It's true that compliance is king, but only if the right frame is set. Without the boyfriend disqualifier, her compliance is still only within the context of vetting me as a boyfriend candidate, hence it's not taking things closer to sex at all.

Now, sometimes you may pull off a masterful reframe and the girl gets very into you. So you opt to push further on the date... you start feeling her up, start kissing her, and she goes along with it. Or you go for the pull: you bring her back home and attempt to escalate physically to intimacy.

Here's the problem with that: all the new emotions she's experienced with you have not fully cemented yet.

She came onto this date with one set of expectations, experienced a whirlwind of new emotions, then made an impromptu decision to start kissing you or let you feel her up or go home with you or even sleep with you that was vastly different from what she planned to do and quite possibly totally out of character for her.

If you sleep with her, you can spend the night with her, make love to her a few more times, chat with her more, and have a nice breakfast with her the next day to help her adjust to her decision and validate that decision as her having made the right choice. See my article on preventing sex regret for more on that.

However, what is far more likely is you will not sleep with her... if you're not skilled enough to avoid falling into a boyfriend frame or a social-mode-momentum-builder-guy frame when she first met you, you're not likely to be skilled enough to a.) navigate out of that, then b.) remain out of it all the way through the escalation to sex.

What will end up happening instead is she'll start making out with you or you'll start feeling her up, and she'll enjoy it, and then female state control kicks in and she says to herself, "Whoa! Wait a minute! I didn't come out here for this! I wasn't thinking of this guy that way at all! What is happening here? I need to pull myself out of this situation and reassess."

At that point, you're done.

The date ends, she leaves, she evaluates everything, and concludes you 'tricked' her, because she came for one thing but was en route to getting something else.

You are a tricky seducer, and she doesn't want to be around you anymore. You might just trick her again!

This is just absolutely 100% spot on.

So what do you do instead? What you do is this: you change the frame and her expectations, then you end the date.

Right as she was getting all jazzed up about you, without feeling her up, without a heavy make-out, without inviting her home, you end things.

You can give her a little peck on the lips if you want... so long as it's light, it can help solidify things as "This is definitely headed somewhere different from what I intended... but it's also not going too fast, and I'm liking it" for her.

You end it, because you want to give her that time to process the reframe, let it percolate, and because you already have the second date planned out mentally.

You end it, because that's all part of the plan.

I sure wish I'd read this article first!

Now I know what to do next time. If the frame is not right (which is often the case, as girls tend to see me by default as a potential provider/boyfriend), I can plan a two-date process. The goal of Date One is to reset the frame, the goal of Date Two is to escalate to sex.

 

[Atlas IV]

For me personally I noticed sexualizing before the pull gives me better insights on if a second date is needed.

Yes, you're absolutely right. She was very complaint with everything I suggested (moving around), so I felt like we were building momentum and took it as a green light to keep moving forward. However without any attempts at sexual framing, I had no idea whether she was ready for intimacy. To pull a girl in that situation is like shooting in the dark.

- How is she responding to my touch? Is she neutral, melting into it, or squeamish

Didn't really try much aside from brief hand holding while crossing the road, and touching her back occasionally. Some proper hand touching (inspecting her ring etc) at the cafe would have given me the intelligence I needed as to her level of actual "physical arousal" compliance, not just "venue changing" compliance.

- How is she responding to sexual frames? Is she jumping into my frames, or showing lots of resistance and selling purity

Yes, perhaps a well-calibrated sex talk gambit would have given me that intel.

- How is the vibe? Have we had moments when she just stares at me lustfully, or is she neutral

Mostly pretty neutral.

- Has she given me any windows to pull? Did she give me any cues she wants to see my place

None. It was all me leading.

- Has she escalating on me? Has she touched me or brough up sexual topics on her own

Nope.

Pretty much I lay on the sexual vibe pretty thick and watch her reactions. If she doesn't seem fully sold and I don't want to risk dealing with LMR I would instead focus on getting another meet and pulling then instead

That's definitely what I need to do next time. More important than the escalation itself is getting her reactions. Otherwise it's like executing a battle strategy without any intelligence.

 

[iceberg slim]

Bummer it didn't work out! That's happened to me more than a few times with some real cuties, and it sucks for sure.

My question regarding Chase's article is: how do you know what her expectations are going into the first date? Do you gauge them through compliance and then adjust your strategy on the fly (whether to try to pull on the first date or plan for a second)? Or do you base it off your initial interaction and texting? It sounds like you had a very brief initial interaction, so how were you supposed to know her expectations?

Also, one suggestion that may be helpful: when I go to multiple venues with a girl, I usually buy drinks at the first and ask her to get the drinks (or ice cream or whatever) at the second. To my mind this lowers your boyfriend potential, gets her investing, and lowers the perception that you are chasing/supplicating.

 

[Will_V]

Planning for a First & Second Date

You won’t get together with a girl on the first date. Sometimes you’ll need several dates to get her. Plan the first and second date simultaneously and bolster your date success. Ever since I grew comfortable going for first date hookups, that became my norm. Yet there are times you fear you...

www.girlschase.com

Wow, this might be one of the best articles I've ever read on GirlsChase.

So many epiphanies I had while reading it.


This is what I should have done with this girl.

At first, it seemed like she showed up with no expectations (we had only had a very brief conversation on the plane). But after what she told me about her dating history, combined with the alluring way she was dressed to our date, I should have realized very quickly that she was "boyfriend vetting" mode, and that a reframe was required, in the way Chase outlines brilliantly in this article.


This should have been the focus of that first date, not simply running through the motions of venue bouncing. It's true that compliance is king, but only if the right frame is set. Without the boyfriend disqualifier, her compliance is still only within the context of vetting me as a boyfriend candidate, hence it's not taking things closer to sex at all.


This is just absolutely 100% spot on.



I sure wish I'd read this article first!

Now I know what to do next time. If the frame is not right (which is often the case, as girls tend to see me by default as a potential provider/boyfriend), I can plan a two-date process. The goal of Date One is to reset the frame, the goal of Date Two is to escalate to sex.

Sounds like you've got it figured out.

It's worth noting that different girls need different ways of setting the lover frame .. some girls assume right away you're sexually interested, others are completely uncertain about what you want, etc, that's why it's important to sexualize throughout and keep calibrating to her responses, so that she's getting an experience that fits her perception of an adventure (something that excites her without making her feel insecure).

 

[Gorili]

@Atlas IV,

The style that you're using here is what I would classify as more of an arousal-based style. You needed better execution of touch, escalation, sexual gambits, etc. to push yourself over her threshold. I'm specifically mentioning this because it's very different from Elon's compliance-based style that purposely omits the man-to-woman frame and is more push-pull.

Also, did you deploy the screening frame? I'm asking because after reading this, I still don't really know what type of girl she is other than that she's a bit inexperienced...

Since everyone's already commented, I'm just going to highlight the shaky areas only:

Did a little incidental touching (holding her forearm/hand while crossing the road

So you were holding her hand?

This move is very boyfriendy, and that message is being communicated to her loud and clear.

We arrived at the cafe, ordered (I paid, again), and sat down.

As @KJ Francis said, I wouldn't pay twice. I actually like @iceberg slim's suggestion of taking turns.

At this point I probed a little into her dating background. She told me she had just broken up with her boyfriend a few months ago (who was Asian-American)

I used that to ask about the difference between dating western guys and local guys. She told me she had only ever had two boyfriends - one local guy in high school which was just “puppy love”, and then the 1-year relationship with this Asian-American guy. She said she finds westerners treat girls better. I nodded in acceptance, but didn’t push that topic further.

This is a nuanced area. Like @Chad Tyrone mentioned, it's generally good to not discuss relationships. The reason is the relationship frame takes over as a result. Once most guys get into past relationship talk, they can't dig themselves out of it and fail to introduce the lover frame.

However, in this particular scenario, it's different. She just broke up with the guy a few months ago. You should've gotten a pulse on where her head is at now when it comes to dating. Some girls also need to vent about the breakup and feel understood. This helps with uncovering any hidden objections early on so you can reframe and address while you still have time. Otherwise, you'll potentially get LMR, and you won't even know what the root cause is.

Another interesting tidbit I forgot to mention - when she was talking about her ex, she sort of implied that the reason they broke up was due to the age gap - "I'm 20 and he was 27". I told her it's not about age but about the connection you feel. I found this funny though because 1. that's not exactly a scandalous age gap, and 2. I wonder how old she thought I was (I'm 31 lol).

Does this sound believable at all? So she figured out that he was 7 years older than her one year in and then realized that it was an issue? Come on. This sounds like a socially acceptable answer that's a cover for something else. I would've dug into this and gotten better intel and see what the real issue was. Then, go with any gambit that explores the need for adventure, connection, living in the moment, chemistry, etc. to introduce the lover frame.

and was accompanying her (significantly less attractive) friend in her travels around Thailand, Hong Kong and Taiwan, who has a boyfriend in each country. Crazy.

Major missed opportunity to frame her as somebody who needs more fun in her life. "Victoria, your friend is awesome. Look at how much fun she's having out there with all these guys. I wish more people were open-minded and more willing to put themselves out there like your friend. Life is short, and sometimes the best things happen when you least expect them to [gesture to yourself], so we should take full advantage of these moments while they last."

She looked at her watch and mentioned she had to go in about 10 minutes to beat the traffic.

I interpreted this to mean that I needed to move quicker.

Yes, if she just looked at her watch, this could mean that you're taking too long to escalate and she's getting antsy. However, her bringing up the traffic changes the meaning.

She pulled away and said “what are you doing?”

I acted nonchalant and went back to selecting music. She excused herself and went to the bathroom. I could already sense this was bad, as if I'd triggered a fight-or-flight response in her.

When she came back, she sat on the chair far from me and said she was going to book the taxi as she wanted to beat the traffic.

First reversal of the dominant / submissive frame. She takes the dominant frame from you and holds onto it for the rest of the interaction.

At this point I really didn’t know what to do. I tried reassuring her with a gambit about how I feel like there are three levels of connection to a successful relationship - explaining the social, emotional and sexual connections, and how they are all equally essential. I asked what she thought, she said “I agree… but I think I need more time for the third one”.

Like @TomInHo said, these gambits should've gone way earlier. If you did that, you would've known where she stood when it comes to her views on sexual connections. These gambits are a preventative measure to address concerns. If we're throwing them out there at the 11th hour, it is not a good move.

- It was during the daytime (not a dealbreaker, but most of my first date lays have happened at night - it's easier to get into a seductive vibe).

At your place, close all the curtains and blinds so that only a small amount of natural light slips in. People feel inhibited when an environment is too bright. The absence of light will better help with creating a liminal space.

 

[Skills]

You need to learn how to properly run a date... The bounces were good but you were having normie convos, and no escalation physical or verbal till one move at closing location... where she goes "oh dhit he has a dick"... The bounces were weird and no strategic from noodles to coffee to ice cream weird... Bounces ideally would have been noodle, well i went to a modern coffee place that could work but there you need to middle flirt or light sexualize a bit by micro escalating... The next bounce should be more secluded like a park were you will escalate more physically and verbally to see if you have it, then you pull... At the pull location you did great but she was confused, slso you play latin, and did not take advantage of dancing and escalating, at the end...you botched the whole thing by what I call, the oh shit he has a Dick he wants to fuck omg out of the blue... please check out these 2 post for context:

The difference between plausible deniability and bait and switch and when to use both.....

Alright guys, i already explain this in a thread of i Believe @Shawn but yesterday a dude in my crew face the same issue, so i will explain here for everyone, and if it happens i just can be lazy and link this post.... 1st what is plausible deniability (i kind of like this one from urban...

www.skilledseducer.com

Date Plans - The complete guide on How to date - Dating dynamics 101

Why listen to me on this, well i was never good at dating, i would either do ons or long texting (second gen/grandmaster) setting up sexual encounters or i would replicate what happened in the club a second time by doing a club date (since I am the highest value guy in the dance floor made...

www.skilledseducer.com

 

[Atlas IV]

@Will_V, @iceberg slim, @Gorili, @Skills Thanks for the feedback guys. This is why I love this community, its honest tough love like this that helps me grow as a seducer.

I realize now that there's a big piece missing from my game, and it's setting proper sexual frames on the dates.

A few months back I was obsessed with @Teevster's gambits, and was experimenting with lots of different kinds of sexual framing. That stuff was working well for me. But recently I've fallen back into old habits of leaning into a provider frame, doing "bait and switch" as Skills describes, and just freestyling too much and being sloppy.

Now I'm putting together some custom material that I can revise before all my dates.

My framework is @Karea Ricardus D.'s classic article on 9 ways to be a sexual man. This is basically a list of starting points for sexual framing:

1. Jealousy - sub-communicating non-monogamy by asking if she's jealous, saying you don't like jealousy
2. Women are sexual too (50 Shades of Gray, 8 Orgasms routine, etc)
3. Breaking societal norms - society's rules for sex are BS
4. Open-mindedness - convey non-judgemental frame, women are unfairly judged, society's double standards, etc (
5. Freedom - slut-shaming is BS, women should be sexually forward if they want to be (maybe throw in Strangers vs Lovers gambit by @TomInHo)
6. Secret Society - tell her that you don't like gossip, everyone's personal life is their own, you never share friends' secrets, etc
7. Power of Now - qualify her on how spontaneous, adventurous she is. James Dean: "Dream as if you will live forever, live as if you will die today."
8. Being single is awesome - most relationships fail because people get into them too quickly. Communicate that you are not looking for a serious relationship
9. Teasing/chase framing - e.g. she flips her hair, tell her tongue-in-cheek to stop seducing you, or to stop looking at you so seductively

These are some actionable things to focus on when on the date that should set the right frames and tell me whether she is ready for a pull. If I'm structuring it over two dates like Chase describes, I'll do a few of them on the first date and save the rest for the second. Also should go over 60YOC's material for physical escalation.

Also: a kinda bizarre development with this girl. We continued texting even after the date, and I pinged her today asking if she wanted to get a smoothie, since she is going to HK tomorrow for a week.
Her reply:
Sorry I'm too busy
Can we meet up when I'm back?
Promise I have time for you all day and night ;')

...the hell? I feel like I'm being thrown a freebie here. That's NOT the typical response you expect from a botched escalation. Maybe her slutty friend is just giving her FOMO. She could very well change her mind after a week though, so I'm not gonna expect too much. Will have to wait and see.

To be honest, I don't care much about getting this girl now compared to what I've gained from writing this report and getting all this feedback. Doing this has supercharged my growth in ways that will pay dividends with future girls, and that's the real payoff!

 

[theReason]

Promise I have time for you all day and night ;')

Fuck yeah! Go get that pussy, bro.

Turn this into an LR haha

 

[KJ Francis]

If the frame is not right (which is often the case, as girls tend to see me by default as a potential provider/boyfriend), I can plan a two-date process. The goal of Date One is to reset the frame, the goal of Date Two is to escalate to sex.

I went back to focusing on my laptop, then tried reassuring that I don’t want to do anything that will make her uncomfortable.

Promise I have time for you all day and night ;')

to be honest I think you pulled off the reframe. because you did not get needy, it was not exactly a botched escalation. rather than persisting against an LMR brick wall, you did a successful freeze-out.

you are understandably hard on yourself because you have high standards for a top notch seduction... but remember you picked this girl up off a plane, led her through a 3 bounce and back to your place, and never started chasing her when she put up resistance, which telegraphs abundance and implies preselection. that's super rare! she may have went back home and got huge horny.

I think in the future you could still aim for more lover vibe on the initial open, then one date. maybe the two-date reframe process would be more important for a single location date style. but if you can do a 3-bounce, that introduces time distortion. so with future girls you can do what Skills linked... at second location start micro-escalating and second gen, then third location get more isolated and start sex talk arousal. you also have less risk that way of attraction expiring or her state shift in between dates, life getting in the way (e.g. her traveling now).

definitely seems alive. her emotion might still change in an hour, but game on.

 

[Atlas IV]

to be honest I think you pulled off the reframe. because you did not get needy, it was not exactly a botched escalation. rather than persisting against an LMR brick wall, you did a successful freeze-out.

Yes that could be it. I also told her very clearly "I just want you to know, I respect your boundaries". She may have gone home and digested the whole situation, then changed her mind about me. Who knows lol.

I think in the future you could still aim for more lover vibe on the initial open, then one date. maybe the two-date reframe process would be more important for a single location date style. but if you can do a 3-bounce, that introduces time distortion. so with future girls you can do what Skills linked... at second location start micro-escalating and second gen, then third location get more isolated and start sex talk arousal. you also have less risk that way of attraction expiring or her state shift in between dates, life getting in the way (e.g. her traveling now).

That's definitely what I'll do next time.

I'm thinking that the micro-escalation and some very light sex talk gambits can be a way to assess whether I need to do the two-date reframe or do a three-bounce one date.

Keeping it flexible of course, but general structure:

Date 1
- First venue - brief chit-chat, then bounce
- Second venue - light 2nd-gen (maybe the first 3 in the list of sexual framing I posted above), gauge her response
- If not compliant, end the date, let her cement the emotions/reframe, restart the process on 2nd date.
- If highly agreeable/compliant, bounce to 3rd venue and run more sexual 2nd-gens and physically escalate. If still compliant, no resistance and objections are dealt with, pull.

Date 2
- Do the same structure - 3 venue bounce with more explicit 2nd gen verbals and escalation, then pull.

 

[KJ Francis]

If not compliant, end the date, let her cement the emotions/reframe, restart the process on 2nd date.

That's a great idea... Letting the compliance test dictate. I thought you were saying make it the plan to for two dates, but it sounds more like contingency planning and understanding the reframe need to sink in.

Solid! You are a very systematic thinker and self reflective. Can't go wrong constantly testing and refining.

She may have gone home and digested the whole situation, then changed her mind about me. Who knows lol.

Yeah "changing her mind is a woman's prerogative" lol it could change back and forth with the wind or whatever movie's playing on her flight home. "Don't change her mind, change her mood"

 

[Atlas IV]

Well it's sealed.

She texted me a few hours before leaving to the airport, inviting me to her place. I went over and that was that.

After the sex, I asked her why she changed her mind and decided she wanted to meet me again. She said she felt like she had been rude to me when she left on the first date, and that she was actually just anxious.

I soon found out what I think is the real reason though. She told me her ex-BF is a control freak with mental illness. He had phoned her that afternoon, yelled at her and called her a slut. I guess it was then that she invited me over. Then, in the time I was with her (about two hours) he tried ringing her like 6 times (I told her to just block him). They were in a long distance relationship, only seeing each other 2 out of the 12 months they were together, and it sounds like there was a lot of drama. I assume her decision to sleep with me was her way of "taking control".

Anyway, it was nice to get the girl in the end, but I really only consider it a bonus. The stuff I learned from posting this field report far outweighs it. Also, since I didn't have to seduce her again, it doesn't give quite the same feeling of triumph. Still, a win is a win!

 

[KJ Francis]

She texted me a few hours before leaving to the airport, inviting me to her place.

nice!! wasn't expecting that!

Also, since I didn't have to seduce her again, it doesn't give quite the same feeling of triumph

for sure higher investment = more attraction... which applies to us as well... so this makes sense.

but from an outsider perspective, this reads like a more successful seduction. going from LMR to having her flip into actually chasing you directly for sex seems like the highest level of compliance and more a testament to your game vs. you starting from lower compliance and re-seducing from that level.

to me, the non-neediness when she first left was a major key to the lay. if fucking lovers = gene shopping, then SMV market dynamics is a huge factor in seduction, right from body rocking down to letting her go. so much of attraction comes down to preselection. if you're the guy who can take it or leave it right up to the last step, you are seen as insanely attractive.

great job!

 

[Skills]

Well it's sealed.

She texted me a few hours before leaving to the airport, inviting me to her place. I went over and that was that.

After the sex, I asked her why she changed her mind and decided she wanted to meet me again. She said she felt like she had been rude to me when she left on the first date, and that she was actually just anxious.

I soon found out what I think is the real reason though. She told me her ex-BF is a control freak with mental illness. He had phoned her that afternoon, yelled at her and called her a slut. I guess it was then that she invited me over. Then, in the time I was with her (about two hours) he tried ringing her like 6 times (I told her to just block him). They were in a long distance relationship, only seeing each other 2 out of the 12 months they were together, and it sounds like there was a lot of drama. I assume her decision to sleep with me was her way of "taking control".

Anyway, it was nice to get the girl in the end, but I really only consider it a bonus. The stuff I learned from posting this field report far outweighs it. Also, since I didn't have to seduce her again, it doesn't give quite the same feeling of triumph. Still, a win is a

Though you may have uncovered that issue in the first meeting to get her to open up, and those mistakes by ex use them to your advantage with frames... But good job getting the lay on second encounter...i have 2 posts one called if the lay is not there, I didn't link before before because i didn't think you did everything possible to get the lay on first encounter... And another called the fallacy of the point of no return... See links for context:

How to increase your chances if the lay is not there on the meet

Disclaimer.- this will be a long comprehensive post but it will totally help you big time, so read it and understand it... Most of the dudes including seducers are still living in the wrong century, or flat out they are not out there gaming or are pretty much kj, because i really don't...

www.skilledseducer.com

Socializing - The fallacy of the point of no return...

The point of no return is a weird seduction concept (one of the worst ones i have seen).... It goes like this: "if you kiss or mess around with a girl and don't close game over" this is flawed strategy but i know were it comes from.... I personally believe the opposite happens and guys lose lays...

www.skilledseducer.com