Challenges when starting at mid or late 40's

[FFB]

This is a tricky age. Most early 40's can effectively blend in with late 30's & have little extra problems. But mid or late 40's (ML40s) is really when the show starts to go downhill for most: white hairs or hairloss, sagging face, tones of wrinkles, etc.

While we mentally feel great, youthful, grounded, happy to live in our own-defined spheres, not particularly needy for LTR or love,
most still will find girls in their 20's most attractive and more importantly least hostile to casual experiences (with anyone).

To name a few of challenges of ML40s:
Cold approach, daytime game, night clubbing, being considered creepy by most younger females, lack of tolerance toward behavior of most girls under 24, lack of time due to working average of 50 hpw and continuously being under life pressure, dealing with gold diggers & blackmailers, dealing with some cougars hardened & jaded & revenge-seeking, inefficiency of online apps, and more!

Is there any advanced user who started at ML40s that can write about what may work or not?
Or any article/book for ML40s' specific challenges?

Please keep this civil!

 

[Derek da man]

I started around 46 after divorce and all the complications that go with that.

white hairs or hairloss, sagging face, tones of wrinkles,

Got all of these although not too many grey hairs but keeping active and fit helps a lot.

Is there any advanced user who started at ML40s that can write about what may work or not?

Go out and do stuff and in that way you meet girls/people in a less "pick-up" type environment and their defenses are much lower. I started partner dancing but you can equally go to conventions, games nights, evening classes or whatever it is that you enjoy.

Girls/women love a man who is confident. This really comes through when you are enthusiastic about something. You don't need to be good but you do need to be interested and have fun doing it.

Not all the girls will be young and in their 20's but this gives you an opportunity to practice approaching and rapport building so that you don't come across as creepy. As you're not trying to pick them up you can try all sorts of things as being rejected doesn't matter although you do need to try and keep a good "social circle" reputation if you are going there repeatedly.

Hope this helps but like any of this you need to get out and practice, it's not good just reading articles.

 

[POB]

To name a few of challenges of ML40s:
Cold approach,

Can be done at any age.
Fundamentals are the same regardless of age:
- look for IOIs and AIs
- dress sharp
- be in shape
- develop good conversational skills
- have tight text game
- always plan ahead your logistics, etc

Only caveat is that your energy must match hers.
If she is super young, you probably won't be talking about crypto strats or that classical concert you attended last week.
Get into their stuff (10 minutes a day figuring out tik-tok trends won't kill you).

daytime game,

The best IMO.
You can do structured day game or "go about your day" game.
Both are worth it, but if you are starting, structured is better as a training ground.
Once you feel more comfortable, you can lay back a bit.

night clubbing,

I love the night.
But unless you shift your lifestyle to accommodate it, night game will quickly take a toll.
I plan to give it another crack soon, but first I'm getting back to doing bachata lessons.
Then I'm gonna look for latin clubs and hop on those as a regular
(usually they start early in the evening, which is better for me).

being considered creepy by most younger females,

Not a factor if you dress and act correctly.

lack of tolerance toward behavior of most girls under 24,

Now this is a problem.
What I would do is look for more mature girls that naturally like older dudes.
(some people call them type 3s)
My estimate is that they are 20-25% of the young crowd population.
Ignore the rest if you lack the patience.

lack of time due to working average of 50 hpw and continuously being under life pressure,

This is an excuse.
We always find time to do things that are important to us.

dealing with gold diggers & blackmailers,

To me this is a non-factor.
5 minutes talking with them and you can already spot those foul intentions.

dealing with some cougars hardened & jaded & revenge-seeking,

Totally your projection.
Cougars are some of the best women out there.
A bit slow to seduce for sure, but they are amazing in bed!

inefficiency of online apps, and more!

Apps:
- get pro looking photos (yes, if you have to, just pay a damn photographer and use photofeeler to help you choose the best ones).
- tight text game (use a script if you have to)
- lie about your age (but only if you look younger...I'm 43, but if I say 30 girls will believe it).
- always text to get dates
- use at least 3 apps (more is better)
- pay all the apps to get the best matches and do one month blitzes to avoid burnout (online is a numbers game)

Is there any advanced user who started at ML40s that can write about what may work or not?
Or any article/book for ML40s' specific challenges?

Blackdragon used to have a lot of stuff for older dudes, but recently he shifted to that sugarbaby bs, which is clearly not what you looking for.
Overall I think GS articles plus this forum is all that you need at the moment.
Of course, go out there and practice.

 

[Skills]

This is a tricky age. Most early 40's can effectively blend in with late 30's & have little extra problems. But mid or late 40's (ML40s) is really when the show starts to go downhill for most: white hairs or hairloss, sagging face, tones of wrinkles, etc.

While we mentally feel great, youthful, grounded, happy to live in our own-defined spheres, not particularly needy for LTR or love,
most still will find girls in their 20's most attractive and more importantly least hostile to casual experiences (with anyone).

To name a few of challenges of ML40s:
Cold approach, daytime game, night clubbing, being considered creepy by most younger females, lack of tolerance toward behavior of most girls under 24, lack of time due to working average of 50 hpw and continuously being under life pressure, dealing with gold diggers & blackmailers, dealing with some cougars hardened & jaded & revenge-seeking, inefficiency of online apps, and more!

Is there any advanced user who started at ML40s that can write about what may work or not?
Or any article/book for ML40s' specific challenges?

Please keep this civil!

there was one user that started in the 40s post divorce his name was the thinman, that i remember but he did not go for 20s demographic.... @POB gave you solid advice i would say if you do not look like you are in your 30s is going to be an uphill battle, when i go to younger clubs in the early 20s and i see guys in the 40s they don't look like they belong, usually they behave different, and dress different....I don't how to explain it they don't look part of the tribe.... other than that you may have to initially flirt (aka lie a bit the age maybe 35 to 36 is less polarizing with most)....

for nightlife i would advice you to join a dance social club (salsa, merengue, kazumba) stuff like that classes they develop a niche group social circle.... otherwise to start night game in your 40s is going to be challenging for the 20 demo....

 

[FFB]

Appreciate all advice above. Invaluable comments.
I'll keep it less personal to keep it useful for other ML40 dudes. Also, to get sth out of discussion, we'll need generalizations anyways.

Common sense & my limited observations: Women in 30's sure have much much less negative sensitivity to ML40 but they are less sedudable. Most of the time, they may be the seducer! Calculating & dominance-seeking. Few are there just for a good time.

"My estimate is that they are 20-25% of the young crowd population."
Let's say a dude's cold approach yield rate was 1 in 200 when in his 30's (not abnormal based on what we read), in ML40 that will go to 1 in 1000 just because of his age. So then this method is probably not the best use of time. Maybe it's better to use time to make money and use the money to buy high quality encounters.

 

[Chase]

Let's say a dude's cold approach yield rate was 1 in 200 when in his 30's (not abnormal based on what we read), in ML40 that will go to 1 in 1000 just because of his age.

1/1000 is moderately-functional autist territory. Or else a guy who is a deeply socially unskilled spam approacher who never pushes much farther than the opener.

I have coached potbellied, unattractive/poorly groomed, socially unsavvy men in their 50s, in nightclubs filled with young people, and had them chatting up women in their 20s who were into them. It’s obviously harder on your own without a coach leaning over your shoulder to tell you what to focus on and do, but you’re going to have to be actively self-sabotaging to have numbers that egregiously bad.

Here’s a question: is this a purely hypothetical post or are you a guy in his 40s who is in-field?

Maybe it's better to use time to make money and use the money to buy high quality encounters.

Well, what’s the objective?

If it’s just “get my dick wet, I’ve got money to burn, I don’t care about anything else, just my dick getting wet,” then it’s hookers. You’ll be up and running immediately; zero learning curve.

If it’s “I just want a wife, I want her ASAP, I’ve got money to burn, I don’t care about anything else, just a wife,” then it’s mail-order bride. Pick your ethnicity, pick a country, start writing messages, go visit, secure the paperwork, congratulations.

If it’s “I want the satisfaction of having women that want me because they want ME,” then you need to learn the social arts. Money can’t get you there:

5 Major Problems Rich Men Face Picking Up Girls

Rich guys have it easy with women. Right?Well… you might think so, if you’re NOT rich.Once you are, it’s a different story.ADVANCED TRAINING: How Rich Guys Get

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Although it can be a tool:

How Conspicuous Consumption Helps Men Get Laid

On this website, my usual advice is that men do everything in their power to not paint themselves as overly wealthy, in order to avoid coming across as a boyfriend candidate. Certainly, dress well; but don't let on too obviously that you have wealth, a prestigious job, etc., if you do. In fact...

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How Rich Guys Get Laid

Trying to use money to get girls often doesn’t work.Yet, with a little creativity, there are absolutely ways it can.PREVIOUS VIDEO: https://www.girlschase.tv/vi

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Chase

 

[Teevster]

1/1000 is moderately-functional autist territory. Or else a guy who is a deeply socially unskilled spam approacher who never pushes much farther than the opener.

100% Rodent-Style

-Teevster

 

[FFB]

The 1/1000 was in response to POB's comment that 20% of young crowd don't mind ML40 dudes. So just being in ML40 brings down yield rate to 20% of whatever the rate could be in let's say early 30's for the same person (regardless of his personality traits & skills).
I don't agree or disagree with POB on 20% comment for young women (POB: would you say roughly under 30 women as what you mean by young?).
It's certainly not that low for women in 30's. But they have other issues.

The point is that for unskilled beginners, if the yield rate of a particular method is going to go down to become one fifth just because of age, that method may not be the best to pursue for beginners.

Again, it's not a problem for players with already good success rate. Say their rate diminished from 1/10 to 1/50 from 35 yo to 48 yo, not a big deal!

 

[RedNeck]

Man, you misunderstood what POB said.

1- He said if you don’t like to deal with immature behaviors you can target girls who naturally like older guys and they are more mature . Those are the 20%. You can target all the population but then you have to deal with immature behaviors.

2- I don’t know about your experience, but I have encountered 30’s and 40’s years old women, and they were easier to bed because they had the husbands and they had the kids . They have completed the check list .

 

[Chase]

Well, if you're trying to figure out numbers before you get into the game, there's just no way.

Some guys are going to get in and be laying 1 out of 20 approaches right from the get go. Best-case beginners at any age. Some guys are going to get in and be doing your 1 out of 200 or even worse (worst case beginners). Many guys will be somewhere in the middle.

The vast majority of men I have seen join this forum at any age (most range from 25 to 45) disappear somewhere before 75-150 approaches; let's call that 100 on average. From those you hear from again later, it is much of the time because they got a girlfriend. So based on that small sample size I would offer that for your average man, somewhere between 25-45, getting into this semi-seriously, it is probably safe to estimate he will average maybe 100 approaches, spread out over the course of three to four months, and end that by taking a girlfriend.

(these men's girlfriends do not always come from cold approach, though some do. It seems like they come from a mix of cold, social circle, and online -- basically the guy gets his skills and awareness up with cold approach, then, with sharpened skills, either succeeds with a cold approach girl, or hits it off with a social circle or online girl and seals the deal)

Could you do better? Could you do worse?

Some others you'll hear from drop out after the ~100 approach mark due to lack of progress + letting themselves get sucked into other things.

Very few men stick around to make pickup a dedicated part of their lives beyond a few months.

So really you have:

1. Guys who put in ~100 approaches and get a girlfriend and perhaps a few lays along the way, then ditch pickup to go be with the girlfriend
   
   
2. Guys who put in ~100 approaches and fail to get any results they're all that satisfied with (perhaps a few sub-par lays), then ditch pickup out of frustration/apathy/shifting back to more rewarding or consuming pastimes for them like work, gaming, etc.
   
   
3. Guys who put in ~100 approaches, get whatever results they get, and commit to skill-building over the long haul

In my experience the guys who are fixated on numbers and forecasting prior to getting in-field tend to perform worse than average. They may be somewhat autistic or in any event certainly aren't chomping at the bit with gusto to go meet girls. If it's just a dry by-the-numbers mechanical experience for you it's going to be a slow climb to good results. You can still get there (many do) but without enthusiasm it's tougher.

(if you had enthusiasm, rather than asking the lifeguards questions about the water temperature and how far the average swimmer gets before fatigue sets in, you'd already be in the pool splashing around)

Chase

 

[Gladiator]

Well, if you're trying to figure out numbers before you get into the game, there's just no way.
In my experience the guys who are fixated on numbers and forecasting prior to getting in-field tend to perform worse than average. They may be somewhat autistic or in any event certainly aren't chomping at the bit with gusto to go meet girls. If it's just a dry by-the-numbers mechanical experience for you it's going to be a slow climb to good results. You can still get there (many do) but without enthusiasm it's tougher.

This deserves to be an article on its own. A lot of guys get into a maze of numbers game. I'm guilty of it myself up until recently. I wanted to bed X number of women within a certain period of time. It put me under undue pressure and my results went downhill. I had programmed my mind so deeply that I started to get restless when I thought of not achieving my goal.

In the book psycho-cybernetics, the author points out why having a goal is as bad as not having a goal. It was an eye-opener for me, albeit very late.

Women specially can sense if you're really feeling what you say and I'm guilty of approaching just for the sake of it. I remember approaching a girl in a pharmacy once and complimenting her hair although there was nothing special about that. She nodded in disagreement and it was as bad as a harsh rejection. I realised the true meaning of what women mean by "objectifying". I said it like I was saying it to a robot. My wing was laughing looking at the interaction. I felt bad for the girl.

Women like to be objectified the right way. I complimented a girl on her legs once at traffic signal when she was wearing shorts and I just had to say it and she walked AFTER me but I wasn't in a mood to chat to her any more than that and bid her farewell.

Anyway, having a goal with numbers in mind in any form is a form of objectification which women can sense and is surely going to end-up in diminishing returns. Unless one is so good with his fundamentals that he can mask it but ironically once you've got that level of fundamentals you don't need to be spam approaching anyway.

 

[RedNeck]

@Chase A little tangent here, are these numbers valid too for warm approach ( approach after AI’s)?
I think warm approach numbers are better.

 

[POB]

Man, you misunderstood what POB said.

1- He said if you don’t like to deal with immature behaviors you can target girls who naturally like older guys and they are more mature . Those are the 20%. You can target all the population but then you have to deal with immature behaviors.

Thank you, that's exactly what I meant.

2- I don’t know about your experience, but I have encountered 30’s and 40’s years old women, and they were easier to bed because they had the husbands and they had the kids . They have completed the check list .

True. Also recently divorced women are some of the easiest lays out there.
(no pipi in vagina for a long time, super horny but frustrated, and sexually craving new cock).
On top of that most of them are super hot because they spend that unused sexual energy and frustration at the gym.

The 1/1000 was in response to POB's comment that 20% of young crowd don't mind ML40 dudes. So just being in ML40 brings down yield rate to 20% of whatever the rate could be in let's say early 30's for the same person (regardless of his personality traits & skills).
I don't agree or disagree with POB on 20% comment for young women (POB: would you say roughly under 30 women as what you mean by young?).
It's certainly not that low for women in 30's. But they have other issues.

All women have issues.
Especially in this day and age of weak men.
One of our jobs as seducers is to teach them how to revert back to their natural feminine sensual state.

The point is that for unskilled beginners, if the yield rate of a particular method is going to go down to become one fifth just because of age, that method may not be the best to pursue for beginners. Again, it's not a problem for players with already good success rate. Say their rate diminished from 1/10 to 1/50 from 35 yo to 48 yo, not a big deal!

You are missing the point here...as a beginner, you gonna suck no matter what
(and believe me, a 16yo virgin starting out will suck way more than a 45yo man with previous experience with women under his belt).
But your numbers are def skewed, as Chase pointed out.

When I started at the age of 32, I needed aprox. 30 dates to get my first lay.
I was green, scared, lost, and fresh of a shitty break-up.
Furthermore, I thought I was too old to get after younger chicks (yes, at age 32 lol).

If you really put your heart into it, that "I suck" phase is gonna last 3-6 months, tops.
Most guys never start...or give up way before that.

Get in-field man, it's gonna change your whole perspective.

 

[FFB]

Gentlemen, thanks a lot for comments and clarification. I and future ML40 will really benefit from this thread.

As someone with lots of data analysis and optimization background, I can't help myself not playing with numbers!

Two more things to add:
1- Let's say someone does 50 approaches and gets a 1/10 yield.
He shaves and goes bald: 50 approaches and 1/20 yield.
He (more rightfully than mistakenly) contributes baldness to diminish his yield rate by 50%.

I don't do approaches (yet) but I've significantly improved my look and style. No noticeable change in (almost null) AI signals from any age group. Compare this to my 20's, when I, totally average guy in all aspects, was receiving lots of prolonged eye contacts, etc

2- Majority of girls hear on a daily basis not to date "much older men" and lots of other negative things (most from our natural enemies: mid-age women!).

I think in conclusion, we can say yeah just being in ML40 (downfall of everything above the neck) WILL diminish yield rate by itself, BUT there are multiple other factors, natural in that age, that WILL help (being grounded, not giving a S, no neediness, less fixation on looks and more interest in compliance, etc)

SO, all these positive forces CAN level off that one significant negative force, with thoughtful practice, best achievable fundamentals, etc

 

[Chase]

@Gladiator,

Good anecdotes, and I agree, it's a worthy topic for a better write-up. I'll see what I can do...


@RedNeck,

@Chase A little tangent here, are these numbers valid too for warm approach ( approach after AI’s)?
I think warm approach numbers are better.

Well, in seduction community parlance, "cold approach" = approach upon a female stranger you have zero social ties to; "warm approach" = approach upon a female you have one or more social connections with (friend group, classroom setting, workplace, yoga, etc.). AIs don't factor into the terminology. (I know Aaron Sleazy did a thing years ago where he was doing a "warm approach = approach with AIs" distinction but he's the only one I've ever heard use that definition)

Anyway... the guys who are better at eliciting and recognizing AIs tend to be the guys with the lowest number of approaches required to get a lay, yes. When you're looking at a new guy doing 1 lay out of 20 approaches he is very likely picking and choosing his approaches, targeting girls who have signaled him (or in general), etc. Guys doing significantly more approaches to get a lay tend to be in the mass approach lane, doing many more (often shallower) approaches with a lot less targeting.

Chase

 

[RedNeck]

If Daniel Craig- away from his celeb status- came to your town, would younger women date him?
I guess the answer is yes. Then look and behave like him.

Also, she might not date you to avoid social pressure , but you might well sleep with her.

I am not saying it is rosy out there. I am saying put the old thinking aside because the field is so different

 

[Skills]

@Gladiator,

Good anecdotes, and I agree, it's a worthy topic for a better write-up. I'll see what I can do...


@RedNeck,



Well, in seduction community parlance, "cold approach" = approach upon a female stranger you have zero social ties to; "warm approach" = approach upon a female you have one or more social connections with (friend group, classroom setting, workplace, yoga, etc.). AIs don't factor into the terminology. (I know Aaron Sleazy did a thing years ago where he was doing a "warm approach = approach with AIs" distinction but he's the only one I've ever heard use that definition)

Anyway... the guys who are better at eliciting and recognizing AIs tend to be the guys with the lowest number of approaches required to get a lay, yes. When you're looking at a new guy doing 1 lay out of 20 approaches he is very likely picking and choosing his approaches, targeting girls who have signaled him (or in general), etc. Guys doing significantly more approaches to get a lay tend to be in the mass approach lane, doing many more (often shallower) approaches with a lot less targeting.

Chase

They are both concidered warm approaches now a days...

 

[Ronnie]

In 70% of situations, age becomes a problem only if you turn it into one.
I am mid-30s, recently went back to gaming after a couple long relationships.
The first few times I was in my head all the time, self-conscious AF about my age. I ruined a set with a very cute early 20 girl in a bar because of that.
A couple of months after that, I am just doing it without a care. Frankly, various chicks in their early 20s on the street react much butter than when I was doing it in my mid to late 20s and was too anxious and less mature.
I was going for indirect approach at first and they were kinda disappointed when I ended the conversation, as if they they wanted more.

 

[Chase]

@FFB,

I don't do approaches (yet) but I've significantly improved my look and style. No noticeable change in (almost null) AI signals from any age group. Compare this to my 20's, when I, totally average guy in all aspects, was receiving lots of prolonged eye contacts, etc

Aside from age, what else is different between you now vs. you in your 20s?

Physique-wise, behaviorally, nonverbal interaction with women-wise, etc.

At 40, I may get somewhat fewer approach invitations than I did in my late 20s / early 30s. But I still get a lot of them, and plenty of heavy ones.

2- Majority of girls hear on a daily basis not to date "much older men" and lots of other negative things (most from our natural enemies: mid-age women!).

Most people are way less plugged into this stuff than you will think they are when you worry about it.

You can find anything online in plenitude if you go looking for it. You can find:

• Endless rants about how women should not date men at all, period, until men start to [whatever demand].
• Rants about how women should insist men treat them as full equals, never try to be 'gentlemen' because it is patronizing, etc.
• Rants about how women should insist men treat them as ladies, open doors for them, pull out chairs for them, foot the bill, etc.
• Rants about how actually women SHOULD date older men, because they are just so much better (1, 2, 3, 4, 5... need I go on?)

You're probably almost as likely to run into a girl who just read something about how dating an older man is so much better than some young and immature kid as one who just watched a rant about how women should only be dating younger men. Most women haven't been hearing much of either perspective though.

Remember: most of the "older men should date women their own age!" stuff is written BY older women FOR older men (it is not aimed at younger women). Either that or they are flaccid appeals to women to "not be traitors to their generations" and things of that nature... and let me tell you something about women, they HATE other women trying to tell them what to do. Women are constantly stabbing each other in the back and trying to pull one another down. A woman telling another woman not to do something is not going to be trusted by the vast majority of women, unless they already agree with whatever it is she's saying.

I think in conclusion, we can say yeah just being in ML40 (downfall of everything above the neck) WILL diminish yield rate by itself, BUT there are multiple other factors, natural in that age, that WILL help (being grounded, not giving a S, no neediness, less fixation on looks and more interest in compliance, etc)

That is your conclusion, based on zero field experience, and so far as I can tell not even reports of other guys who do have field experience.

What is this conclusion actually based upon... older women writing articles targeted at younger women telling them to stay away from "their" men?

You need to get into the field and talk to women, man.

Make 50 approaches and you are going to walk away with a completely different set of positions than the ones you're attempting to abstract out from the ivory tower with zero field experience and dismissals of the guys that have it, based upon conclusions drawn from a few dried-up old prunes' bitter online rants.

Chase

 

[Skills]

Ok so i thought about this, if i am going to start in my 40s i would first do the aa drills, day game...

-I would write a journal.

- Meantime i would still working On fundamentals, gy, nutrition, fashion. This will give me a state boost as well..

- as hobby i would take a martial art and group class community such as like a said some type of dance group, or fitness group such as orange fitness or cross fit or joga, coed sport in your city etc....

- i personally would read models by mark manson that book touches on friction, demogographics, polirizatiom, needines (ignore for the most part seduction advice subpar).... i would also read psycho cybernetics by maxwell, dan kennedy collaboration one.

- i would not make the goal of 20s, i will tell you why it could bring the i am not getting girls indian syndrome in other words you would say i am not getting girls cause i am in my 40s... i would start with girls 5 to 10 years younger i would still try on the 20s but no my main goal, as i am getting better and better, then 15 years younger in the mix till i reach the 20 year olds...