FR CrimeanKitten

[Marty]

This was a fairly straightforward number-close, which would normally be a bit uneventful for a FR, but there seemed to be so many directions this could go, and I have so many questions, that I've decided to post it up in the hope of getting a little help. Perhaps it's too late to save this interaction—I'd be interested in your opinion.

Questions:

• 1. How do I avoid getting into a "texting trap"? I've just sent her an icebreaker, she'll most likely respond "Nice to meet you too", and then what? I never know what to say.
  
• 2. Did I correctly shake off the "social frame" she attempted to impose, and will this further my aims, or was I too weak?
  
• 3. Mentally I tied myself in knots over not being able to figure out an instant date proposal... how can I deal with this better next time?
  
• 4. Am I deep in the boyfriend zone (or worse)? Is there any chance whatever of resexualizing this interaction? How?

Narrative:

It's raining and I take a post-prandial trip to the shopping mall. I don't need to buy anything

After some fruitless roaming among the boutiques, chiefly spent waiting for prospects to get out of line or off the phone so that I can open, but then failing to catch them before they dart out of reach, I return toward my car through the food court.

Sitting alone at a table near Chick-Fil-A is a girl with long dark-brown hair and a stunningly perfect face, speaking quietly on a cell phone. I pass her and as I eye her from the corner of my gaze, she finishes her conversation and put the phone away. I turn and get her attention.

• 
  Marty: Do you mind if I take this seat?
  
  CrimeanKitten: No, sure, go ahead.

I take a seat opposite her, first turning the chair to a 45-degree angle so that my body language doesn't come on too strong. I take up space and look at her sidelong.

• 
  Marty: I just saw you finish talking on the phone and wanted to come say hello. You're very pretty.

She eyes me with extreme skepticism. I assume I'm done for. Nonetheless, I press on.

• 
  Marty: What's your name?
  
  CrimeanKitten: CrimeanKitten.
  
  Marty: Good to meet you, CrimeanKitten. I'm Marty.

She takes my hand briefly.

• 
  Marty: Do you work somewhere nearby?
  
  CrimeanKitten: Not really.
  
  Marty: Uh-huh... are you just taking a break for lunch?
  
  CrimeanKitten: Sort of.
  
  Marty: Yeah, it's a bit wet outside... better to spend time at the mall. What do you do?
  
  CrimeanKitten: I work in a technology company. What do you do?
  
  Marty: I work in entertainment.

This is going spectacularly badly so far, and I assume I'm toast. There's a brief pause and I'm ready to eject. But then, miraculously, something spikes her curiosity.

• 
  CrimeanKitten: What did you say your name was?
  
  Marty: Marty.
  
  CrimeanKitten: Mart? That's an unusual name.
  
  Marty: Marty. Yeah, well my family's from Central Europe. (I name the country.)
  
  CrimeanKitten: Oh? I'm Ukrainian!
  
  Marty: Really... well, there's a lot going on over there just now.
  
  CrimeanKitten: Indeed.
  
  Marty: I'm following it very closely.
  
  CrimeanKitten: I'm sure you are.
  
  Marty: What part of Ukraine are you from?
  
  CrimeanKitten: The Crimea. But... I'm Ukrainian.
  
  Marty: (eyebrows raised) Do you have relatives still there? Do they keep you abreast of events?
  
  CrimeanKitten: Yes, I have some and they are in touch at the moment.
  
  Marty: How long have you been in the States?
  
  CrimeanKitten: Over 20 years.
  
  Marty: Right... you must have come over as a child.
  
  CrimeanKitten: Very small. My parents left as soon as it was allowed.
  
  Marty: (cautiously) Do you speak Russian?
  
  CrimeanKitten: Yes, I do.
  
  Marty: Do you WANT to speak Russian?

I should point out here that although I speak fluent Russian, I have no sympathy whatsoever for the Russian government's worldview or its current neo-imperial adventures. I am also acutely aware of the sensitivities in that part of the world. As mentioned above, my family is from a Central European country that also suffered Russian invasion and occupation.

The following part of the conversation takes place in Russian.

• 
  CrimeanKitten: Sure, we can... why? Do you speak Russian?
  
  Marty: Yes. But I wasn't certain you'd want to speak it, given the current circumstances.
  
  CrimeanKitten: My parents made sure that I kept my Russian up to scratch.
  
  Marty: And you speak Ukrainian too?
  
  CrimeanKitten: I do, yes. Do you believe in God?

Wow! Quite some curveball.

• 
  Marty: I must admit I take a more scientific, rather than religious, approach to life.

Translation: I am a committed atheist. She won't let it go, though. Still in Russian:

• 
  CrimeanKitten: But... you clearly have some spiritual beliefs?
  
  Marty: I'm impressed that you ask me such a question at five minutes' acquaintance. I do have immense respect for the wonder of life, and believe that ... how do I express this properly ... there is great poetry in the scheme of the Universe and how events play out. However, I do not ascribe that to a supernatural being as such.
  
  CrimeanKitten: So you do feel that there is something greater than yourself?
  
  Marty: I endeavor for a measure of humility and certainly feel the hand of guidance at times.
  
  CrimeanKitten: How long have you been in the States?
  
  Marty: Three years. I was raised in Great Britain.
  
  CrimeanKitten: Ah yes, I thought I detected a certain accent.

(At this point she asks about which of my parents is from what country, a matter I am not going to go into here.)

• 
  Marty: You have such beautiful eyes. A very unusual color.
  
  CrimeanKitten: A lot of people tell me that.
  
  Marty: I'm sure they do. Almost an almond-like shade.
  
  CrimeanKitten: It varies by context.
  
  Marty: Well, I would ask you to accompany me for coffee, but it appears that you're now sated in terms of both food and drink. (Indicating her empty plates with a sweeping gesture.)
  
  CrimeanKitten: Yes. And I have to get on. After working overtime earlier in the week, I took the afternoon off to get some shopping done. Look, if you understand Russian, you should come to my church some time.
  
  Marty: When I came over to speak to you, my intention was certainly not social. I want to get to know you properly. Will you get a bite to eat with me another time?
  
  CrimeanKitten: I'll think about it.
  
  Marty: Great, well why don't you leave me your cell phone number. (Handing her my phone.)
  
  CrimeanKitten: (Keying in her number.) But you should certainly come to my church. You'd find it interesting. We can talk there, too, get to know each other.
  
  Marty: I'd rather do that one-to-one. (Pocketing my phone.)
  
  CrimeanKitten: I understand.
  
  Marty: It was nice talking with you! Hope you find what you're shopping for!
  
  CrimeanKitten: Nice talking with you too!

In view of this odd exchange, where do you think I stand on questions #1 thru #4 above? Frankly, maybe I was right all along... perhaps I am toast.

Thank you!

-Marty

 

[Marty]

Okay, she's either testing hell out of me, or I'm very forgetful, or both.

90 minutes after my icebreaker I get the following text:

"Marty, it was very nice to meet you... I remember you quite well but I'm not {CrimeanKitten}... It might've been the girl you met before/after me..."

Now I know I'm a bit older than the majority of members of this forum, but I don't exactly have memory loss. I used her name back to her several times and I'm pretty sure I got it right. I might have misheard at the beginning, of course. And I didn't meet anyone else today (shhh!)

Plus I used some specific references ("nice to meet a fellow-European") in my icebreaker which were directly relevant to her.

So I'm not sure how to reply. Perhaps as follows:

"I'm looking for the Ukrainian girl with the remarkable hazel eyes. I'm not very good with names "

Suggestions, please?

 

[Richard]

Marty,

I'm not quite sure how to put this - reading through this FR I got a few gut instinct reactions that throw me off. I'm writing this while I review the FR so bear with me if I lack consistency =P

1) This girl seems like a, for lack of a better term, bitch. Her responses are pretty harsh and don't seem to flow with the direction you were taking, and instead she started to steer the conversation for you. You can see and feel the shift in the conversation - she was clearly the dominant one here. A few instances:

I do, yes. Do you believe in God?

and you answered.

But... you clearly have some spiritual beliefs?

She persisted and you complied.

So you do feel that there is something greater than yourself?

She re-framed and persisted, and you complied.

How long have you been in the States?

She sensed the lack of connection here and changed topics, and you complied again by answering.

Yes. And I have to get on. After working overtime earlier in the week, I took the afternoon off to get some shopping done. Look, if you understand Russian, you should come to my church some time.

She asserted herself, made a demand, then persisted again.

Personally, I would throw this girls number away and never think about her again.

Also, another few notes:

Will you get a bite to eat with me another time?

<-- Don't ask for her approval, and don't ask for her opinion. State it like a question. A more reasonable phrase would've been "Let's get another bite to eat some time"

Okay... I feel like this girl is only keeping in contact with you to try to convert you to a more religious view -- not interested sexually and probably won't be either.

The conversation feels forced as well - like she was saying just enough to not piss you off, and it worked because you kept asking questions, until she grabbed the reigns and steered the conversation for you - basically a battle where she was winning and you had no idea there was a battle going on.

Anyway to your questions:
1) If all she says is "Nice to meet you too" then you don't have to reply. Send her another text a few days later, or the next day about something the two of you either a) clicked about or b) something she mentioned she was doing or would be doing.

Hey CrimeanKitten =P, how did your little shopping spree turn out the other day?

2) I kind of answered this one already through my thoughts up above.

3) In this situation, I doubt anyone could've found a reasonable instant date. She was clearly busy, had an agenda and was assertive in keeping to it. Unless you proved yourself to be fffaaarrrr more important than that agenda then she wasn't going to go anywhere. However, if the two of you clicked on religion (which you didn't) then she probably would've voluntarily invited you to accompany her to talk about it while she shopped (sort of an instant date).

Her religious dedication is evident in her persistence/framing, and you absolutely did not pass that screen (which is why she's trying to get you to come to her church --- to convert you, not to chase you)

4) You seem to be deep in the friend zone, but again, I wouldn't worry too much because she's not the kind of girl for you Marty. I wouldn't even bother trying to do anything with her -- don't text her, and don't make plans with her unless she absolutely texts you to do so -- and if she texts you to go to church with her, I'd decline.

So, only advance things along if she texts you first and offers anything outside of going to her church.

 

[Franco]

To add one more perspective to what Richard wrote, it actually sounds to me like she's genuinely religious and wants to slot you into a "husband" role. Very religious women will first try to convert you to their religion, and then they'll suddenly start rushing things toward marriage so they can sleep with you.

That's not necessarily a bad thing... if you want to spend the rest of your life as a married, devout Christian/Catholic/Buddhist/etc. It's not really my cup of tea, anyway.

The only way to sleep with a girl like this within the time frame of a first date (or usually an instant date) is to completely remove yourself from being boyfriend/husband material (to the point where you basically argue that you will never be open to becoming XYZ religion devotee). However, you need to do it in a way where you sound educated AND sexual, and you need to talk about sex as a beautiful thing that should not be limited to only marriage between two people. As you're doing this, you should also be making very light sexual banter -- enough that she knows that you're making sexual jokes, but not so much that she's taken aback.

The idea is to get her so turned on by you that she feels like she can have one quick "sinful" getaway and indulge in her sexual desires, then she can go back to church the next day and ask for forgiveness (or whatever the equivalent is for her religion).

In general, I don't really like to deal with all of this, though. You'll be busting your balls and possibly sending her into an "awakened" state where she'll begin to question everything she thought she knew about men and religion, and she'll likely have an internal struggle that can mess up her life for awhile. It's usually not worth it.

The last thing I'd like to mention is that I've heard Ukrainian women are complete gold diggers (which is why Richard might have picked up on the "bitchy" attitude). If you're not going to be her provider and meet her social status requirements, then you're wasting her time. If you noticed, she wanted to know where you were from, which generally means she wants to get an idea of your status and upbringing. I'm not saying this is EVERY woman from Ukraine, but it's just something to keep in mind when you're dealing with Ukrainian women.

- Franco

 

[Richard]

In general, I don't really like to deal with all of this, though. You'll be busting your balls and possibly sending her into an "awakened" state where she'll begin to question everything she thought she knew about men and religion, and she'll likely have an internal struggle that can mess up her life for awhile. It's usually not worth it.

^^^ This right here is the point I was going to make but forgot in my writing haste.

Not so much the part about questioning everything - but the effort that's needed to actually make this sexual . I'd much rather spend that time on a more worthwhile girl =P

-Richard

 

[Marty]

Okay, Franco, Zphix, I appreciate your quick responses, those raise all sorts of interesting points, and I'd love to discuss them, but there is a more immediate issue right now.

I'm being teased. Over text.

Here's the exchange:

• Fri 4:25 PM—Marty: Hey {CrimeanKitten}, this is {Marty}! Hope your shopping expedition was fruitful Good to meet a fellow-European.
  
  Fri 5:57 PM—CK: {Marty}, it was very nice to meet you.. I remember you quite well but I'm not {CK}.. It might've been the girl you met before/after me..
  
  Fri 7:51 PM—Marty: So: Ukrainian zealot with hazel eyes, what may I call you? I must've gotten your name wrong at least 3 times during our chat, oops!
  
  Fri 9:50 PM—CK: Blimey! We are way off! good luck remembering..

I know it's her. That's to say, I know she didn't give me a fake number and now this is some random-ass dude taking the piss, because she used the Brit expression "Blimey!" and we chatted about how I grew up in GB and how she'd visited the place quite a few times on business with her current company. I totally get that she works with Brits and may have picked up the expression from them. Also the "double-period" ellipsis (..), as opposed to triple, is absolutely classic East European usage.

But I'm way out of my depth here. I'm bad enough at texting as it is, without my texting interlocutor having fun at my expense...

Is there a dominant/masculine way I can handle this?

Maybe phone her tomorrow morning? Or I could switch to Russian and text her Сдаюсь. Расскажи. (which has the advantage of being only 2 words) meaning "I give up. Tell me."—however I'm afraid that this might be submitting to her frame, no?

-Marty

 

[Franco]

Marty,

Given that texting is my strong point, I'll throw a quick bone out for ya:

Fri 9:50 PM—CK: Blimey! We are way off! good luck remembering..

You: What a shame... I was on the fence about checking out a new church with her too, given her recommendation. Maybe next time!

If she doesn't give herself up after that one, just cut contact. She'll be wondering whether or not she actually had you on the verge of converting...!

NOTE: This might just be playing games at this point, but... I love winning games.

- Franco

 

[Marty]

Given that texting is my strong point, I'll throw a quick bone out for ya:
...
You: What a shame... I was on the fence about checking out a new church with her too, given her recommendation. Maybe next time!

Oh, thanks Franco, you're a fucking ROCK. Any observation on timing of this text? I think it's brilliant.

I can't imagine why she'd want to convert me if she doesn't care about me, but maybe they give her a bonus for each new parishioner reeled in or something. I wouldn't mind "converting" her as per your "awakening" comment earlier, actually, but that's way beyond my current ability... that'd be something for you, Z, NJ or Anat.

 

[Casanovelis]

Well think about it. If you had nailed her now maybe in awhile Russia will take it and you can say you've slept with a Crimean AND a Russian! 2 for 1!

 

[TheWiseFool]

As soon as she asked if you believe in God I started laughing because Christian people always go to Chick-fil-a and I was thinking, o man..... Richard hit the nail right on the head.

 

[Marty]

Richard,

Okay, since this interaction's almost certainly dead I may as well learn something from it. Thanks for your commentary so far!

Her religious dedication is evident in her persistence/framing, and you absolutely did not pass that screen

This is where I'm very confused. I thought "screening" was about testing to see how masculine/dominant I am. What has religion got to do with that? Or are you saying that "passing" would mean asserting my point of view in a much more aggressive and contrarian manner?

I wouldn't worry too much because she's not the kind of girl for you Marty.

What makes you say that, Richard? I'm sorry now that I didn't describe her in as much detail as usual... I thought she was great actually.

which is why she's trying to get you to come to her church --- to convert you

As mentioned above, I'm puzzled as to why she'd want to convert me if, as you say, she's not interested in me. Do you think the church gives her some kind of financial incentive for each additional soul signed up? Or is it another example of a woman following different laws of logic from the rest of us?

Okay, I should go back to sleep. Waking up at night worrying about it is not a good sign. I'll send Franco's text in the morning I guess... I really don't want to be dragged anywhere near a church though.

-Marty

 

[Richard]

Marty,

I thought "screening" was about testing to see how masculine/dominant I am

Not necessarily - it really depends on the woman. While most women will "screen" for masculine qualities, like us guys who screen, they also "screen" for qualities that they like in people as well. Everyone "screens" for qualities that they personally find attractive - which is, but not at all limited to, masculinity and dominance as a man.

If she's highly religious, she would be "screening" you for the qualities she likes in people: namely how religious you are. So, because she "screened" you for your religious views which did not line up with hers then you "failed" her particular screen. It wasn't about your dominance but more or less your major similarity to her.

What makes you say that, Richard? I'm sorry now that I didn't describe her in as much detail as usual... I thought she was great actually.

I had to use what you wrote - and I read her reactions and pinned her as a bitch for lack of a better term. I was running on that assumption --- but, I was not in your shoes so I could very well be wrong about the kind of girl she actually was with you.

Side note for future clarity - When you write FRs try to include details on things other than just conversation (which you did slightly), but when you look at a FR or LR by NJ, or any of mine before I was committed you'll see emoticons, bracketed kinesthetics (warm hug, and a long manhandle kiss! =P) because they help give readers a better feel for the emotional state of the affair at hand

As mentioned above, I'm puzzled as to why she'd want to convert me if, as you say, she's not interested in me. Do you think the church gives her some kind of financial incentive for each additional soul signed up? Or is it another example of a woman following different laws of logic from the rest of us?

Okay, I've got two thoughts on the matter now because you thought she was great (which has given me a different plausible read of the girl).

1) My original thought was that she's religious --- and die hard religious fanatics almost always try to get you to convert or at least think about their view. To this day, friends of mine try to get me to come to their church (both girls and guys). It doesn't matter if you're just a friend, a stranger or whatever, die hard fanatics try to get their point across. Even if she's not attracted to you, she might be trying to convert you simply because she's a die hard fanatic.

2) Because you've given me a different read on the girl, she may be interested in you --- and she may pursue something "real" with you if you go to her church. These girls tend to look for LTRs and not one-night stands or FWBs type things (usually anyway ) and by getting you to convert to her religious view - it would put you in the boyfriend role. So my 2nd idea is that she might be looking to convert you because she's interested in you (to a degree) and will only push ahead if you commit to her religious view.

Questions, comments, concerns?

-Richard

 

[Marty]

Franco, I owe you one! Actually, by now, I owe you several

The embarrassing thing is that I did actually get her name wrong.

Saturday at 8:20 AM I send her the "church" text you wrote for me, verbatim. No response. I'm determined to draw a line under it at this point... I figure she's bad for me. I steel myself to the fact that if I want to play in the big leagues, I'm gonna meet the occasional girl who seems mean and nasty to me as the price of participating. The compensation is occasionally meeting one like SexySculptress, whom I texted last night for the first time in over 7 weeks to receive a response from her within the minute, twice in succession, promising she'd see me next time she was in town.

Then today, Sunday, at about 6 PM I am driving and I think "fuck this" and call CK. Might as well find out her real name if only to correct my records, LOL =) No answer, but I get her voicemail greeting which tells me her real name. The odd thing is I don't even remember hearing that... maybe I am getting memory loss

So five minutes later I stop the car, switch my iPhone to Cyrillic and shoot off a very brusque text, in Russian, saying the following:

"{KC}. Not {CK}. So, I got it wrong. Now what?"

Well, would you believe at around 8:45 PM I get a call from her. I answer and she says in English: "Hey, may I speak with Sasha please?"

I switch to Russian and tell her: "My name's not Sasha. It's {Marty}. You know that."

She goes back to English with "There must be some mistake, I'm sorry."

I figure she's gonna hang up but I say anyway: "Okay, we got each other's names wrong once each. That makes us even."

She comes back with: "Yeah, 1-1" and we both burst out laughing.

After some small talk I say: "Look, I think you and I got off on the wrong foot." She agrees, and we put our house in order. We go into a very comfortable conversation.

At one point I assure her that my lunch break was too short to meet dozens of women and get all their names mixed up, to which she replies sarcastically: "Yeah, it must be so hard for you to have that job on the side" She actually apologizes for missing my call earlier; I tell her it's fine as it gave me the opportunity to get her real name from the voicemail greeting, and she says: "Yes, I wouldn't do that to you."

We chat for 10 minutes before I politely break it off, kidding her that she dare not call me Sasha again

Now we have a date this Friday! =)

-Marty

PS: I think I have learned something very important from this interaction... I just need time to figure out what it is, haha!

 

[Marty]

Well... this is very odd. I hardly know where to start. Either she's very adept at sending mixed signals to confuse and intrigue men, or on the contrary she's a little nervous and unsure how things are supposed to proceed. I think I should stop with the speculation and stick to the facts—clearly I do not have the experience or ability to be able to interpret them, so let's not pretend I do.

That's one of the great things about going through this process actually... it's taught me just how ignorant I am.

First things first: about 90 minutes after the date ended I received (somewhat to my surprise) a text reading: "Marty, thanks for this evening I had a great time. I hope you have a great rest of the night." Not quite sure how or when to respond... I'm thinking of waiting like another 90 min and writing: "Delighted to hear that you consider your time well-spent Good night"

So: the facts. In no particular order...

• This girl is ultra-high value. I've been on this forum long enough I hope that members who know me will not think me prone to exaggeration. She's certainly the finest girl I've taken on a date (ever—not just off of cold approach), and of the 200+ girls I've cold-approached recently, she's in the top 2 or 3 looks-wise. What's more, I'm sure she's perfectly aware of it. She's about two years out of college, I'd say she's probably 24 or so. Career-wise early days but with a globally respected company.
  
• Underneath the sarcastic, hard-testing exterior lies a gentle personality very concerned about others. For example, she ordered food at the date and I had a suspicion that she was only doing it because she felt I hadn't eaten and she wanted me to be comfortable eating in front of her. I actually called her out on this and she admitted it. There were a couple other things like that directed at me, as well as at others in the stories she told.
  
• We connected rather well on a number of deep issues, however I am uncertain whether it is worth pursuing things because she appears quite conservative (and/or I don't know how to handle it—I'm perfectly willing to concede that others here might have no issues with this and would know how to speed things up properly) and I'm concerned that the resulting slow-moving process is likely to derail the seduction under the weight of its own expectations. It's a measure of how I've changed that as recently as August last year, if I'd been in the same situation I'd be head-over-heels in love with her right now. No question. As it is, I'm reasonably outcome independent in this case... that may be partly because there is a possibility I'll be leaving town. But I would like to see how far matters can be brought to a head, out of curiosity and a desire to learn.
  
• The girl was nervous throughout the earlier part of the date. (Amusingly, I was not, although I will admit to being nervous before the date, purely because this lady is a world-beater in terms of looks, and because she tested me so hard beforehand.) She was playing with her hands, taking a ring of off the middle finger on her right hand and placing it on the marriage finger of her left(!), then taking it off again, fiddling with other stuff, messing with her hair, etc. I was actually quite surprised, due to the tough sarcastic exterior as well as the (possibly invalid) assumption that a woman as beautiful as her must be accustomed to this sort of thing.
  
• Part of the testing thing is telling outrageous jokes in a deadpan manner. She does it quite well actually. My response was to hold eye-contact and stare back immobile until the tension broke of its own accord. Sometimes it's like she'd planned the joke ahead of time and it came out in a ponderous manner, like with her dialing me last weekend and asking for "Sasha" as described above. She threw me one of those right at the start of the evening and it was obvious it was planned and designed to test me.
  
• This one's fun. We walked a little after the date and I walked her back to her car. She was a bit funny about taking my arm (took it initially, then decided she didn't like it), but then a strong wind blew up, she started shivering (and was a little underdressed for the weather) and was extremely positive about my placing my arm around her and holding her tight to keep her warm for the rest of the walk. It's like she wanted the physical contact for comfort, but she didn't want the "date-y" implications of taking my arm with all the "pressure" that this implies. She was actually comfortable with a lot of leading touch throughout the date.
  
• At the point of bidding farewell (as advised a while back by NarrowJ), I was planning to go for the gentle, sensual, teasing kiss as suggested by Anatman, with lots of sexy eye-contact. I got the cheek-turn and said a very strong, confident, but quiet and gentle "Don't be shy..." exactly as Anatman advised, but got the response "Oh no, I'm not like that"—very gently, with no giggling, flirting or messing around, just all very sincere. This was interesting. I looked at her levelly and said in a neutral, firm tone: "I'm not making any assumptions about what you're like", in a reassuring manner. Then I said goodbye. It almost seemed like the "I'm not like that" comment was a self-qualification. Sure, it could have been a polite means of refusal, or a resistance test—but it didn't seem like either, especially in view of the follow-up text as described above. Crucially, there was no weirdness afterward: I'm glad I made the attempt as that served as insurance against her auto-rejecting, but she was still very lovely to me right before leaving.
  
• If she is contemplating spinning things out into a relationship (far from certain—I'm not fool enough to flatter myself on this account), then yeah she's exactly the sort of girl I'd consider for long-term stuff. Due to the caveats above, however, I'm extremely skeptical that this will be possible.
  
• Possibly the oddest thing of the night. She attended the technical university in our city, and upon prompting she told me a little about university life. She told me it was hard socially because the men were "very scared" (of her presumably); it being a technical university she asserted that the males outnumbered the females 3 to 1 (though I've certainly never noticed that when conducting day-game there, LOL!). I felt I didn't miss any escalation windows and this is probably why... she's accustomed to men moving extraordinarily slow, so even what I did even though it was ludicrously gentle by GC standards may have seemed on the aggressive side to her. I'm pretty ignorant though so could well be wrong about this... and that might have been the (false) impression she was trying to put across for whatever reason. If it's genuine though then I need to manage my attainability—as evidenced by the heavy sarcasm on the approach as well as the initial texting.
  
• Neutral topics of conversation were almost totally avoided (I say "almost" because they only acted as a lead-in to a deep-dive each time). We got into some very personal stuff, and I broke the tension occasionally with a harmless, unrelated joke.

So like I say she's gotten me intrigued. I'm certainly not counting on anything, and it goes without saying that I continue to pursue other avenues very assertively, but I have to say this girl has some class.

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

Hey, Marty, sorry for taking so long to reply.

To put it concisely and curtly: hard next her.

This girl is ultra-high value. I've been on this forum long enough I hope that members who know me will not think me prone to exaggeration. She's certainly the finest girl I've taken on a date (ever—not just off of cold approach), and of the 200+ girls I've cold-approached recently, she's in the top 2 or 3 looks-wise. What's more, I'm sure she's perfectly aware of it. She's about two years out of college, I'd say she's probably 24 or so. Career-wise early days but with a globally respected company.

You're a boss for getting the attention of a girl who probably ignores half of the approaches she gets, so be proud of that! But, don't let her mesmerize you. Break free of the pussy spell. A small dose of Tucker Max will do that for ya (i.e., "she just a vagina").

Underneath the sarcastic, hard-testing exterior lies a gentle personality very concerned about others. For example, she ordered food at the date and I had a suspicion that she was only doing it because she felt I hadn't eaten and she wanted me to be comfortable eating in front of her. I actually called her out on this and she admitted it. There were a couple other things like that directed at me, as well as at others in the stories she told.

Do not try too hard to see the "gold beneath the rubble." Juxtapose this against the girl who sees the "the badboy who really has a heart of gold," and continues to see him despite consistent cheating and physical violence.

Everyone has some good inside of them - but those unwilling to express it are weak and not worth your time.

We connected rather well on a number of deep issues, however I am uncertain whether it is worth pursuing things because she appears quite conservative (and/or I don't know how to handle it—I'm perfectly willing to concede that others here might have no issues with this and would know how to speed things up properly) and I'm concerned that the resulting slow-moving process is likely to derail the seduction under the weight of its own expectations. It's a measure of how I've changed that as recently as August last year, if I'd been in the same situation I'd be head-over-heels in love with her right now. No question. As it is, I'm reasonably outcome independent in this case... that may be partly because there is a possibility I'll be leaving town. But I would like to see how far matters can be brought to a head, out of curiosity and a desire to learn.

So long as you TRULY believe yourself to be outcome independent, then persist and learn (i.e., she will not occupy any mental space other than when you're interacting with her in the present moment or just before/after you do see her).

The girl was nervous throughout the earlier part of the date. (Amusingly, I was not, although I will admit to being nervous before the date, purely because this lady is a world-beater in terms of looks, and because she tested me so hard beforehand.) She was playing with her hands, taking a ring of off the middle finger on her right hand and placing it on the marriage finger of her left(!), then taking it off again, fiddling with other stuff, messing with her hair, etc. I was actually quite surprised, due to the tough sarcastic exterior as well as the (possibly invalid) assumption that a woman as beautiful as her must be accustomed to this sort of thing.

Call her out on it. It's one of my favorite things to do. It either evokes some hard shit tests that you can learn from, or you catch her (if she stutters, hesitates, blushes, or continues the aforementioned actions). If you catch her, she's yours.

Part of the testing thing is telling outrageous jokes in a deadpan manner. She does it quite well actually. My response was to hold eye-contact and stare back immobile until the tension broke of its own accord. Sometimes it's like she'd planned the joke ahead of time and it came out in a ponderous manner, like with her dialing me last weekend and asking for "Sasha" as described above. She threw me one of those right at the start of the evening and it was obvious it was planned and designed to test me.

You're going to learn a lot from this girl. Like I said, if you can continue without too much stress, learn all you can.

At the point of bidding farewell (as advised a while back by NarrowJ), I was planning to go for the gentle, sensual, teasing kiss as suggested by Anatman, with lots of sexy eye-contact. I got the cheek-turn and said a very strong, confident, but quiet and gentle "Don't be shy..." exactly as Anatman advised, but got the response "Oh no, I'm not like that"—very gently, with no giggling, flirting or messing around, just all very sincere. This was interesting. I looked at her levelly and said in a neutral, firm tone: "I'm not making any assumptions about what you're like", in a reassuring manner. Then I said goodbye. It almost seemed like the "I'm not like that" comment was a self-qualification. Sure, it could have been a polite means of refusal, or a resistance test—but it didn't seem like either, especially in view of the follow-up text as described above. Crucially, there was no weirdness afterward: I'm glad I made the attempt as that served as insurance against her auto-rejecting, but she was still very lovely to me right before leaving.

I think "I'm not like that" was a continuation of the rejection, not a response to "don't be shy." Sorry that my suggestion didn't work out for ya. Maybe you needed to go for the Manhandle kiss with her and JOLT her out of auto-pilot. If what you've been doing isn't working, then you need to come from left-field, because 1. You're already losing, might as well hail-mary 2. It might be the missing key to her pussy.

As for the "don't be shy" comment, grab her chin as you do it and turn it towards her, then say it. You have to say it REALLY calm. It's a high-risk maneuver, because it can come off REALLY FUCKING CREEPY (a lot of my game is super high-risk-high-reward and I sometimes get the "creepy" reaction). But that's the point of Hail Marys: high risk, high reward (well, high risk for her perception of you; as for yourself, not much if she isn't tied to your social circle, since you really don't lose much).

If she is contemplating spinning things out into a relationship (far from certain—I'm not fool enough to flatter myself on this account), then yeah she's exactly the sort of girl I'd consider for long-term stuff. Due to the caveats above, however, I'm extremely skeptical that this will be possible

Beware of this thinking; the moment you start making genuine exceptions for girls you haven't slept with, you're fucked. Learn from this fuckup of mine.



I guess I've contradicted myself by presenting two options. For the sake of your sanity, HARD NEXT HER. But if you really, really, really, really, really think you can see her again without getting sucked in, then go for it, my friend.


Anatman

 

[Marty]

Hey Anatman,

Thanks for getting back to me. I get the feeling everyone's sick to death of this field report

You're a boss for getting the attention of a girl who probably ignores half of the approaches she gets, so be proud of that!

I swear to you what got her attention was my refusal to bow to her initial shit-test. In reality that was because I thought I'd blown it, and I just felt like letting her know she'd been a bitch. I can hardly believe it worked.

I actually got her name wrong and she immediately started ribbing me for playing the field. Kinda serendipitous; if I'd gone with a warm icebreaker containing the correct name, I might have gotten a brush-off. What really kicked her out of autopilot was that I then called her to get her name off of her voicemail (I knew she wouldn't pick up) and then immediately texted her as brusquely as possible to tell her she was making way too big a deal out of it.

But, don't let her mesmerize you. Break free of the pussy spell.

Heheh, yeah that's exactly the right advice!

Do not try too hard to see the "gold beneath the rubble." Juxtapose this against the girl who sees the "the badboy who really has a heart of gold," and continues to see him despite consistent cheating and physical violence.

Took me a while but now I see what you're getting at. Basically, you're saying I should treat her like an incredibly bitchy girl who has a few minor redeeming features, one of which being that she looks like she belongs on the pages of a lingerie catalog. Because in a sense, if she keeps her supposedly kind heart so well hidden, it's of little use.

So long as you TRULY believe yourself to be outcome independent, then persist and learn (i.e., she will not occupy any mental space other than when you're interacting with her in the present moment or just before/after you do see her).

You're going to learn a lot from this girl. Like I said, if you can continue without too much stress, learn all you can.

I think I can do that. I might try the old three-date fallback that Franco and others describe (first date fail, second date don't attempt, third date push to close or hard next) as for some reason it seems to be indicated in this case.

Call her out on it. It's one of my favorite things to do. It either evokes some hard shit tests that you can learn from, or you catch her (if she stutters, hesitates, blushes, or continues the aforementioned actions). If you catch her, she's yours.

Okay, next time. How about this (grabbing her hands): "You're fiddling with your hands... are you nervous? Do you get nervous around men? ...Or just around me?!"

But that's the point of Hail Marys: high risk, high reward (well, high risk for her perception of you; as for yourself, not much if she isn't tied to your social circle, since you really don't lose much).

You know what? Yeah. But I'm going to stick to the risk in person. What I don't want is some pointless gambit that teaches me nothing, e.g. I text her tomorrow asking her over to dinner at my house and she never responds ("Doesn't he get it? I refused a kiss first time and now he's trying to isolate me! Oh, this fellow's clueless.") Better to go for the three-date fallback as discussed above and take the risks on the spot, preferably when I detect open escalation windows.

I've not contacted her since Friday night, so I need to figure out how to reengage. She mentioned she likes crêpes, so maybe I'll take her to a cool little French place.

For the sake of your sanity, HARD NEXT HER.

How could I do that when there's so much to learn, Anatman?

Don't worry about my sanity—my sanity's fine. I'm not pining, I'm not ruminating, the only mental energy I'm spending is on when and how to contact her next. Meantime I'm having fun elsewhere: I hit a new mall Sunday and opened three real cute girls, none of them a real prospect but all three delighted by my attention. There's plenty of fun to be had with or without CrimeanKitten, but I'm kinda curious to see where this goes!

Thank you for leading the way

-Marty

 

[Marty]

Update... left a voicemail Thursday evening, she texted back very warmly within a couple hours letting me know she was free to talk. We spoke for about 15 minutes on the phone.

She isn't really free to meet in the coming week owing to family preparations for Easter, and the following week she has visitors from out-of-town. I think the best policy for me is to cut contact with her completely for 2 weeks before reengaging.

 

[Marty]

I think this one's lost. What a pity.

I sent her a text message 48 hours ago, but she didn't see fit to respond, which Franco says is usually the point when you can start getting worried. She said she'd be done with her relatives by now.

I don't really understand, we had a nice phone conversation 2 weeks ago. Never was there any suggestion I'd done anything wrong.

Does anyone see a mistake in my behavior? It's a shame I could lose such a high-class girl so easily!

-Marty

 

[Grand Pooba]

I think this one's lost. What a pity.

I sent her a text message 48 hours ago, but she didn't see fit to respond, which Franco says is usually the point when you can start getting worried. She said she'd be done with her relatives by now.

I don't really understand, we had a nice phone conversation 2 weeks ago. Never was there any suggestion I'd done anything wrong.

Does anyone see a mistake in my behavior? It's a shame I could lose such a high-class girl so easily!

-Marty

I think attraction expired. But try again in a day or two and see where she is at? Perhaps the style of text that says "hey, never heard back on a date or time for getting together. If you changed your mind, that's cool too. Ball's in your court, missy!"

 

[Marty]

Ozzo:

I liked your idea, especially since this girl seems to respond better to curtness and brusqueness, believe it or not, than to kindness and gentleness... yes there is probably something messed up with her head, but I get a kick out of these bitchy girls. Know "Hildy" from Mad Men? That's the type of "soft", resentful bitchiness I'm talking about... drives me nuts. In a good way. Like she's just asking to be made to submit.

But ultimately, your suggestion was unneeded since she texted me around 10 this morning (Monday). Lots of "sorry"–ing and "I haven't forgotten about you"–ing... my last message was Thursday afternoon.

Do you think I should wait a day or so before responding, so as not to reward bad behavior, or would that be real pissy and unnecessary and lead to a "cycle of violence"?

-Marty