This is my first public FR, so I appreciate feedback on both my game and the format, such as what to include more of and what to include less of.
Also this wound up longer than expected, so I may be including more things than needed, and/or should change the way I format it. I appreciate people taking the time to read it and give feedback.
Some background - Just starting to go out seriously again. A number of things including monogamy for a period, as well as moving contributed to this. So I'm also in the process of scouting out and locking down new venues (it was my first time at this place). Also, this is within the area with gay bars, and in fact we accidentally head to one of the nearby gay bars (didn't go in. also, don't let drunk girls lead, haha) before realizing we needed to go to another venue with a similar name (I'm willing to try going out to the gay bars too, but could use some specific advice as I'm not well versed in it).
Also this was a "one shot, one kill" type of night (even though I failed to pull, I believe it was there), in that the first non-working girl I opened I spent the rest of the night with. I always appreciate those. And I do feel socially warming up helps so that once I opening a girl I am interested in, I'm already loose.
Went out early, say 9:30-10:00PM (really my goal is 9:00-9:30PM, but I'm getting used to going out again), the place had not transitioned to the club atmosphere and dj, which it did around 10:30-11. Wearing gray chinos, gray merlino wool sweater (different shades), brown Chelsea boots, and a black peacoat that looks like a suit jacket (so I'm told) which is custom made to my measurements from a seamstress in Vietnam (based on a $600+ Italian coat worn by James Bond in Starfall, mine was $150).
Before going out I meditate, this time I think 10 mins, but ideally 30 with enough lead time. The idea is to clear my mind and be calm and focused. I then listen to fun music, edm and other stuff that puts me in a good mood, dance around a bit as I get ready.
In the uber I make a point to talk to the driver, relate at least, but joke and have fun if possible. Socially warm up.
Outside the venue a girl is smoking a juul and standing apart, I joke that she needs to get one last hit before she goes in. The guy to the side, who seems like he might work there, asks to hit it. I tell her she has to let him, that's the rule for juuling in front of someone. She doesn't respond. I continue to joke with him a bit. This is just me warming up and also potentially creating a connection with someone in the venue, the girl is not particularly attractive and with a guy. Side Note: I didn't do this, but I could have re-opened inside and been nicer instead of so challenging, particularly if she had an attractive friend (or friends). Also, I could have just done this to remove a potential negative if later in the night I met an attractive girl and she happened to be friends with this girl. Further, that could have been part of my social warmup.
I scope the place, many interconnected rooms, including three floors, and its basically two restaurant/bars back to back connected by a corridor with bathrooms. A big place, which I like as it gives me options and the ability to move around and find sets that I like.
The next interaction of note, I go to use the bathroom and the sinks are common while the men's and women's toilets are separate (I like this design, more opportunities to talk to girls). I joke to the two girls standing by the sinks as I walk in (hesitantly, again first time here and I don't know the place), that I didn't want to rush in if it was the women's room. Didn't want to be a pervert (or some such notion). They smiled and were friendly, again, warming up.
I'll note here that for me choosing to have these little interactions gets me out of my head and into social mode and into the moment. Then when I need to say or do something quickly, I'm better prepared.
I continue to explore the bar, and then I have the first flirtation of the night, but with a waitress/bartender who was working.
I came up to her to ask where the coat check was (which I legit wanted to know, but why not ask the attractive girl?), and she started explaining it. For a moment it's me bridging to how I'd be surprised if a nice place like this didn't have one, and I believe I make a comment like how as a "sophisticated older man" I appreciate it (or something like that), in order to turn it from professional to personal.
She bites and starts flirting a bit, saying she's older than me (a slight disqualification). This is actually standard with me, I look younger than I am (she guessed 27 or 28), where I am 34 soon to be 35. I get as young as mid to early 20's even.
I challenger her on this, saying I bet I'm older than she is (she looks late 20's, which for women is a bit old / past their prime in some sense, but definitely still looks good). Here I could have possibly attached something to this bet to get later compliance or just pump my state, for instance I could have said "The loser has to give the winner one sincere compliment", which then leads to either her showing interest or at least some fun banter, or me showing interest under the guise of losing the bet. Either way, that could have been useful for another step in the right direction.
So, she guesses 27 or 28, to which I respond "wrong decade". She complimented me, saying in a round about way that if I was 27 she wouldn't be interested but since I'm 34 she was (not in those exact words, and I don't remember her exact phrasing).
I actually rephrased it as "So if I was 27 I would just be cute, but not dateable, but since I'm 34 I'm handsome." This was a fun "assume the sale" line, and also showed knowledge of her experience and belief i.e. older men / younger women, which I share.
She said "that's what happens to men when they get into their 30's, they become handsome" to which I reply "what happens to women, and when?"
And she says "after 26 they get... real" (As an aside, I like her already. I appreciate a girl with a realistic view of dating and relationships).
I inquired what she meant about real and she said women in their late 20's "see through the bullshit" and also know how to pick the right guys.
To which I replay "Same happens to men in their 30's, but we're about 5 years behind" (she nods in agreement, of course, I'm roughly 5 years older than her, really 7, but it was more the concept and connection between us than the exact number). Framing compatibility and creating rapport right away.
I feel she was with it but she was setting up her bar.
Around this time this girl walks in (hbclassy) and I check her out, cute and nice body, and then she asks me if it's ok if she can take some chairs (they wanted to move chairs in order to put them at their friend's table). This may have been due to me talking to the bartender, me being dressed well with an almost suit jacket, me having a professional or commanding presence... or maybe she just thought I was cute (hadn't thought about that till now, but actually that would have been a good tease).
I then start in on how the chairs are very carefully arranged... by a designer flown in by France... to mimic the way Notre Dame was setup... but since they seem nice (and her friend is holding two chairs this whole time)... I'll make an exception. Plus I comment on her friend (hbshort) holding the chairs. I'm fun and flirting with them for just a little while longer, and then I go back to the bartender. She is setting up still, and busy, so I tell her I will come back to her later.
I explore the bar (first time there), go to coat check, don't check my coat (they had a problem), and just have little joking exchanges with people (the coat check girl, guys in line). And then I make my way back to the original area of the bar (resolved to not check my coat if it meant waiting any longer).
I start with the bartender, who I know it was on with, and get water, change, tip her and then she immediately leaves (still setting up apparently, she later came back with some more bottles). I talk to her replacements for a minute, getting the lay of the land, and then I go over to the other bar with the chair girl is with her friend. I smoothly cut in next to my target between another guy, with her friend on the right. And from here I get to work (I spent the next 3-4 hours with this girl).
At the start I spoke to them both, hbclassy next to me and her friend on her other side. I let lie the idea that maybe I did work there for a while, it could make a good callback or spike. So we all chatted for a bit, I could tell hbclassy was into me (I don't think her friend would have minded either), but it was nothing too complex just basic flirting. Complimented her, some light teasing (of them both), worked in a nice self-compliment about my eyes that hbclassy agreed with. Generally felt a very friendly vibe from her.
I qualified her on her personality, which I genuinely liked, and it gradually turned into me and her talking more and her friend contributing less (although I kept her engaged a bit). Then I asked what she did, and it turns out we were in the same industry. We bonded over this, we were both excited as we're both passionate about what we do, and I then went overt and direct:
"I liked you before when you were just attractive with a good personality. Now that I know we're both in _____, I'm really interested."
Now, this had the effect of really hooking her strongly, but it also may have created too much of a boyfriend frame. Truthfully I do actually like having someone to collaborate with, and we could probably help each other, but I know the real connection will come from penis in vagina, and that should be my priority. Planning too far in the future, without getting that done first, can be bad.
In her returning my interest, her friend sees this as the opportunity to excuse herself, and goes to talk to the rest of the group (about 4-6 other girls, maybe a guy or two, didn't pay attention). I then decide to get another water, and I offer to get her a drink (we're still both at the bar) at the same time (which I consider just standard socially, but especially now that we're making our interest overt. Also, she doesn't try to abuse this). I don't remember if I bought her one then or if she was still rather full. Either way, I get my water, and the lights get lower and the music louder.
At this point I suggest we move to a place "A little quieter" where we can both hear each other better. This is somewhere that the weather works against me, because going outside is not really an option (but is closer to a pull, and more secluded. With an outside smoking area or after we both finish or drinks, this could be good). However I settle for leading her to a long cushioned booth by one of the entrances. She tells her friends before we go, and once there we are out of their view and more or less isolated.
I sit down with my legs facing outwards, she sits with upper body and legs facing me, on the diagonal. Good sign of body language.
We talk and flirt for a while. She's easy and compliant. Laughs plenty. Nothing fancy here. I do take advantage of the leg closest to me which I feel she's "offering me" by resting my hand on it and stroking it gently from time to time.
At some point she wants to show me pictures of her work (again, we have this in common), and when she takes out her phone I use that as an excuse to exchange numbers. Now, I didn't have to do this, and in fact there may be something to be said to not doing this and having that tension there, but I could see it was on and I didn't want her group of friends to mess it up later.
Actually, this speaks to a greater issue, which is I should have been screening logistics better at this point. At this point I didn't know her friend was staying with her, and I didn't even know her relationship to her other friends. I think my thought process was mentioning them may lead to her thinking about them and to her thinking we should rejoin them i.e. bursting our little bubble. I don't think this is accurate in the cold analysis of right now, but I believe that was my thought then. Further, knowing the logistics was probably worth the risk.
So as we go through that, and she shows me her work, it turns out we have a common friend, one who is fairly close to both of us. This was a very fun revelation, in the sense that we met without their knowledge or setup but they would be happy if we got together, but may have been a double edged sword. So on the one hand while I'm now even more safe from this connection, if she was considering fast sex with me, she may choose not to do so for fear of reputation backlash.
At this point she suggests that we don't tell them we've met, but that we meet them out at a bar and I just come in and reveal that I know her (she may or may not have suggested we kiss at that). I suggest if we do that, I just walk up without saying a word and make out with her, and use as an example that sailor coming back from WW2 picture. She agrees with this. I then say that before I agree to this know, I need to know if she's a good kisser (turns out she really isn't! lol), and from here is a simple kiss close (her only objection is that it's only one kiss, she winds up kissing me four times, was not in any rush to stop. Also I could have been more conscious here of it and pulled back first).
On the kiss close, I go back and forth with it. On the one hand it creates the "It's On Moment" cred: 60yoc, but on the other it does release some tension, give her some validation, perhaps removes some mystery. I'm willing to hear different opinions on it i.e. should I make kissing her conditional on her leaving with me. And the other part, some girls are just shy about kissing in public, especially with a guy they are just meeting.
From here we have lots of relating and rapport, perhaps too much with me squandering the opportunity for setting some good frames or some good SOT's, or a push for that matter.
I think the "purity gambit" would have been good here,
SOT's like the honestly one I discussed with @Bacchus https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/poetic-injustice.21808/
The "who is the lucky one" with @Teevster https://www.skilledseducer.com/thre...discussing-old-lay-reports.21915/#post-107574
TVA: yeah, something really natural! I am not very much into getting laid, I mean if I get laid, she is the lucky one because I am going to fuck the shit out of her! but if I don't get any laid I don't really care, because I have some cool female friends (okey I wasn't sure if i would get away with this one
Or just some general non-judgmental sexual frames such as my new favorite one also from the same thread with Teevster.
"Why is it cool for me to lay 10 girls, and bad if you do so... by the way you really deserves it.", all would have been better to do here. I feel I spent too much time in comfort when I could have moved the seduction forward.
And I did use the "relaxed, expressive and enthusiastic" from Glow but not till later in the night. https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/seduction-oriented-topics.21690/
Also at some point she asks me if I'm a "thrill seeker", to which I reply "not in most things, probably business and romance are the only two. I'm excited to make money and also to meet a beautiful woman and be swept up in a passionate romance." She likes this answer. I ask her if she is one, to which she replies she is, and I ask her how. She then says she wants to go skydiving, and asks if I would go. I say "sure, let's go tomorrow, but we need to get up early for something like that so you'll have to sleep over." (this is all before I know her logistics by the way). She wants me to pinky promise, to which I'm hesitant (I don't know why, I could just lie to get out of it the next day, I'm not just going to jump out of a plane with this girl! lol), all the while I'm saying "but you have to spend the night." This kind of fades away.
Our relating continues, and hbshorty comes up to "check on us". She mentions our common friend, I say "we're very compatible" (to her agreement), all parties seem satisfied but again, too much boyfriend not enough lover and missed opportunities for good sexual frames. It may be here that her friend mentions going to the other bar, or they just mention going to the dance floor, I don't remember. Either way, they leave and we stay for a bit, continue to talk, and then decide to follow them after using the bathroom.
It is at this point I believe she mentions that hbshorty is staying with her.
I didn't consider a bathroom pull here, or any serious escalation, but something might have been possible if I had used the previous isolation more effectively.
We then find her friends on the dance floor. Her one friend gets low and starts popping her ass aggressively, I look instinctively, and she notices (and doesn't like it). I say "I noticed her dancing, not her. I like looking at you." and then she dances a bit with enthusiasm (she actually was on her college's dance team).
Now here's where I think the actual pull was make or break:
Her friend came over and said they were thinking about going to another bar, more of a club, down the street. It would be a loud dancing place. Now my excuse to not go was that we were having a great conversation (we were) and that place isn't built for talking. If we stayed at the first bar it would also mean total isolation with my girl. Basically, I believe I could have pulled like that.
What I wanted to do, which I've done before, is to pull my girl, fuck her, and then bring her back to her friend as if nothing happened. This was 100% possible, at this time of night it was around 12, 2 hours from bars closing. What I didn't do is A) pursued this full force once her friend mentioned it (I laid the groundwork saying it was louder there, and not our scene, but I needed to make it airtight) and B) when the moment of truth came, I didn't push it with the friend for concern of coming off poorly.
The objection was that her friend was staying with her and wouldn't be able to get back to her house, even though they were in a large group of girls. I mentioned giving her friend her address, but I felt it came off poorly at the time. I should have had my girl get a text ready with her address, and then had her tell her friend the plan (not do it myself). This is my guess, I'm open to alternative solutions.
Regardless, we all agreed to go to the other bar together.
While there her and I danced very close but she was careful not to kiss me in front of her friends (not that I cared much, and actually there really is no good reason to kiss her in front of them and plenty of reasons not to). Plenty of grinding though.
I saw a girl approach our group, who may have known someone in it, who looked vaguely familiar. Funny enough I knew I had met her before, but couldn't place where (I've narrowed it down to two possibilities), and I just figured it was probably at least vaguely negative haha (like, a girl I was talking to where it didn't work out). So at that point I told my girl I wanted to get a drink of water, and she followed me.
At the bar, and here is an example of how dressing well helps, one guy gave up his spot because he liked the way I dressed (and I've been getting a mix of compliments and challenges on my fashion lately, which I see as a positive).
Here she asks me why I don't drink. I tell her I'll tell her when she kisses me (again). She says maybe she'll kiss me. I tell her she will, and not to deny me affection, haha (playing around with dominance, but perhaps hurt me later. Regardless, she was being coy). She kisses me, and I move her over to a quiet place to talk.
I tell her I gave up drinking years ago when I realized it was something I do to release tension and be social, after a week of being tense and not social. I didn't like the pattern. She related to this and agreed she felt the same way. I think this question was asked because she felt odd that I was buying her an alcoholic drink but not drinking myself, and thought that might mean I was going to take advantage of her (a common notion with me not drinking and being at bars). Anyway, I think she was satisfied.
At this point I decided to take things sexual. I started with the relaxed, expressive and enthusiastic SOT, stating that her outfit was sexy yet classy, and that it seemed to me she was relaxed and expressive about her sexuality, that it meant I could be relaxed and expressive with mine, and that she and I could be enthusiastic together. This went over well. I then asked her if there was anything she didn't like sexually (decided to start there), to which she pushed back a little "why are we talking about this", and I replied "because I want to know if there are things not to do before we do them. Like I don't want to go down on you and then you tell me you don't like that" (she started to get excited by this).
She says she does like it when guys go down on her, but there was one guy who was all about her feet (haha). So I said, "I'm more of a boob guy. Which works out, since you have nice boobs." (She had already told me they were her favorite physical asset of hers, and they were very nice).
I then ask her about what she does like, she tells me hard sex, generally. Getting picked up. Thrown down. I also inquire about choking, which she says she likes, also hair pulling. She then tells me how when she cut her hair she realized she couldn't have her hair pulled like that anymore. And then, she went to her housemate and showed her that her hair couldn't be pulled anymore, haha. I asked how much information they share, and she said she knows when she brings guys back home, to which I reply "how many guys?" (and with a smile, not serious) which is open to interpretation for the answer but she actually ignores it (which is a good time to mention I never asked about her relationship history or status, just assumed she was single and went from there. A little background might have been useful).
At this point I ask her if she has any fantasies she hasn't tried, she starts to think and then hbshorty comes up. She's just complaining about creepy guys hitting on her on the dance floor. She asks her to come with her, and I say we're actually really enjoying it here (talking). And I can see my girl is a little torn, she mentions going to see people "who are only here for the night" (honestly don't know if she meant hbshorty or any of her other friends, again didn't probe logistics well), and I tell her "it's up to her" Could maybe have lead or been more dominant here.
We go back to the dance floor and I protect her from a drunk guy. Her friend actually thinks she needs to protect her from me and comes over to her, she sends her away (she tells me she didn't realize we were together already). She's a bit colder here, not grinding as much on me. My thought is that I overcooked her a little. I got her hot and bothered with the sex talk and then we went back to her friends, so then she's thinking that if we leave together we're probably going to have sex. But she doesn't think she wants that.
So when the lights go on, she stands in place and tells me we aren't going home together. I actually have to persuade her to come back to our original quiet spot to talk, because we really can't talk there, and I don't like this 180 attitude shift. We go over and then comes some of the good old standby's:
"I'm not that type of girl."
"I've been fucked over before, had sex too soon when I wanted a relationship."
the impractical
"What am I going to do, throw hbshorty out of the bed?"
and even
"I'm not going home with someone random" - I push back hard on this. Telling her it's insulting to call me someone random. And she apologizes.
Also, generally it was clear she was triggered, not feeling very good after we had come off the dance floor.
Edit: One somewhat successful frame I set here, in response to the above was to say I wanted passion in a relationship, that a good relationship always starts with passion, and that I want my women to be passionate. I feel this was helping some, although too little too late.
But I do feel that application of some of the better frames would have helped here. Also, had I gotten separation at 12 (instead being with the group at 2), I think I could have pulled on a plausible premise within 30 minutes of true isolation.
Another development is hbshorty came over and tried to take her to the bathroom. She said she didn't need to go. Hbshorty said come with me anyway. She said "No". So hbshorty leaves us alone.
Hbclassy suggests we meet soon but not stay over tonight, we discuss a late lunch tomorrow (never materializes), and leave it at that.
However on leaving my phone messes up with uber, so she reluctantly agrees to share and uber and then have me go home afterwards (she thinks even with this I can't be trusted, a real change). I wasn't even thinking of pushing this, since she was being way too erratic for my taste and I really don't know what her issues were/are. But we take an uber back to her place, I stay in it and then go home.
One possible change in her attitude I thought might have been that girl who I vaguely knew who might have knew a girl from the group, and that being part of the interference that happened when we returned to the dancefloor.
Finally, while we are in the uber, some other guy sends her a picture of him, telling her he's in town. He has some corny nickname for her so I say "is he gay", to which she responds "no" but agrees the nickname is bad/weird. I think about amoging some, but just let it go. Of course I also considered that she was going to meet up with him instead after, but she didn't leave my side the whole night (except in the bathroom in the first spot) and unless she sneakily checked her phone while she was on the dancefloor, I don't think that was what derailed me. But it's possible I suppose.
On a personal level it does make me disengage with any serious texting, knowing that there was a chance for an SNL and a real connection (and great experience) between us, and now she expects me to "get in line" or submit to the boyfriend interview process.
The next day I did wake up and text her about lunch, and she responded 30 mins prior with a long message about "not seeing this", that she dropped off hbshorty and was headed back to her parents, but "Definitely still want to meet up sometime!!".
I'm not optimistic (or enthusiastic) about it, but that's where it stands.
Key Points:
All constructive comments and insights welcome.
Also this wound up longer than expected, so I may be including more things than needed, and/or should change the way I format it. I appreciate people taking the time to read it and give feedback.
Some background - Just starting to go out seriously again. A number of things including monogamy for a period, as well as moving contributed to this. So I'm also in the process of scouting out and locking down new venues (it was my first time at this place). Also, this is within the area with gay bars, and in fact we accidentally head to one of the nearby gay bars (didn't go in. also, don't let drunk girls lead, haha) before realizing we needed to go to another venue with a similar name (I'm willing to try going out to the gay bars too, but could use some specific advice as I'm not well versed in it).
Also this was a "one shot, one kill" type of night (even though I failed to pull, I believe it was there), in that the first non-working girl I opened I spent the rest of the night with. I always appreciate those. And I do feel socially warming up helps so that once I opening a girl I am interested in, I'm already loose.
Went out early, say 9:30-10:00PM (really my goal is 9:00-9:30PM, but I'm getting used to going out again), the place had not transitioned to the club atmosphere and dj, which it did around 10:30-11. Wearing gray chinos, gray merlino wool sweater (different shades), brown Chelsea boots, and a black peacoat that looks like a suit jacket (so I'm told) which is custom made to my measurements from a seamstress in Vietnam (based on a $600+ Italian coat worn by James Bond in Starfall, mine was $150).
Before going out I meditate, this time I think 10 mins, but ideally 30 with enough lead time. The idea is to clear my mind and be calm and focused. I then listen to fun music, edm and other stuff that puts me in a good mood, dance around a bit as I get ready.
In the uber I make a point to talk to the driver, relate at least, but joke and have fun if possible. Socially warm up.
Outside the venue a girl is smoking a juul and standing apart, I joke that she needs to get one last hit before she goes in. The guy to the side, who seems like he might work there, asks to hit it. I tell her she has to let him, that's the rule for juuling in front of someone. She doesn't respond. I continue to joke with him a bit. This is just me warming up and also potentially creating a connection with someone in the venue, the girl is not particularly attractive and with a guy. Side Note: I didn't do this, but I could have re-opened inside and been nicer instead of so challenging, particularly if she had an attractive friend (or friends). Also, I could have just done this to remove a potential negative if later in the night I met an attractive girl and she happened to be friends with this girl. Further, that could have been part of my social warmup.
I scope the place, many interconnected rooms, including three floors, and its basically two restaurant/bars back to back connected by a corridor with bathrooms. A big place, which I like as it gives me options and the ability to move around and find sets that I like.
The next interaction of note, I go to use the bathroom and the sinks are common while the men's and women's toilets are separate (I like this design, more opportunities to talk to girls). I joke to the two girls standing by the sinks as I walk in (hesitantly, again first time here and I don't know the place), that I didn't want to rush in if it was the women's room. Didn't want to be a pervert (or some such notion). They smiled and were friendly, again, warming up.
I'll note here that for me choosing to have these little interactions gets me out of my head and into social mode and into the moment. Then when I need to say or do something quickly, I'm better prepared.
I continue to explore the bar, and then I have the first flirtation of the night, but with a waitress/bartender who was working.
I came up to her to ask where the coat check was (which I legit wanted to know, but why not ask the attractive girl?), and she started explaining it. For a moment it's me bridging to how I'd be surprised if a nice place like this didn't have one, and I believe I make a comment like how as a "sophisticated older man" I appreciate it (or something like that), in order to turn it from professional to personal.
She bites and starts flirting a bit, saying she's older than me (a slight disqualification). This is actually standard with me, I look younger than I am (she guessed 27 or 28), where I am 34 soon to be 35. I get as young as mid to early 20's even.
I challenger her on this, saying I bet I'm older than she is (she looks late 20's, which for women is a bit old / past their prime in some sense, but definitely still looks good). Here I could have possibly attached something to this bet to get later compliance or just pump my state, for instance I could have said "The loser has to give the winner one sincere compliment", which then leads to either her showing interest or at least some fun banter, or me showing interest under the guise of losing the bet. Either way, that could have been useful for another step in the right direction.
So, she guesses 27 or 28, to which I respond "wrong decade". She complimented me, saying in a round about way that if I was 27 she wouldn't be interested but since I'm 34 she was (not in those exact words, and I don't remember her exact phrasing).
I actually rephrased it as "So if I was 27 I would just be cute, but not dateable, but since I'm 34 I'm handsome." This was a fun "assume the sale" line, and also showed knowledge of her experience and belief i.e. older men / younger women, which I share.
She said "that's what happens to men when they get into their 30's, they become handsome" to which I reply "what happens to women, and when?"
And she says "after 26 they get... real" (As an aside, I like her already. I appreciate a girl with a realistic view of dating and relationships).
I inquired what she meant about real and she said women in their late 20's "see through the bullshit" and also know how to pick the right guys.
To which I replay "Same happens to men in their 30's, but we're about 5 years behind" (she nods in agreement, of course, I'm roughly 5 years older than her, really 7, but it was more the concept and connection between us than the exact number). Framing compatibility and creating rapport right away.
I feel she was with it but she was setting up her bar.
Around this time this girl walks in (hbclassy) and I check her out, cute and nice body, and then she asks me if it's ok if she can take some chairs (they wanted to move chairs in order to put them at their friend's table). This may have been due to me talking to the bartender, me being dressed well with an almost suit jacket, me having a professional or commanding presence... or maybe she just thought I was cute (hadn't thought about that till now, but actually that would have been a good tease).
I then start in on how the chairs are very carefully arranged... by a designer flown in by France... to mimic the way Notre Dame was setup... but since they seem nice (and her friend is holding two chairs this whole time)... I'll make an exception. Plus I comment on her friend (hbshort) holding the chairs. I'm fun and flirting with them for just a little while longer, and then I go back to the bartender. She is setting up still, and busy, so I tell her I will come back to her later.
I explore the bar (first time there), go to coat check, don't check my coat (they had a problem), and just have little joking exchanges with people (the coat check girl, guys in line). And then I make my way back to the original area of the bar (resolved to not check my coat if it meant waiting any longer).
I start with the bartender, who I know it was on with, and get water, change, tip her and then she immediately leaves (still setting up apparently, she later came back with some more bottles). I talk to her replacements for a minute, getting the lay of the land, and then I go over to the other bar with the chair girl is with her friend. I smoothly cut in next to my target between another guy, with her friend on the right. And from here I get to work (I spent the next 3-4 hours with this girl).
At the start I spoke to them both, hbclassy next to me and her friend on her other side. I let lie the idea that maybe I did work there for a while, it could make a good callback or spike. So we all chatted for a bit, I could tell hbclassy was into me (I don't think her friend would have minded either), but it was nothing too complex just basic flirting. Complimented her, some light teasing (of them both), worked in a nice self-compliment about my eyes that hbclassy agreed with. Generally felt a very friendly vibe from her.
I qualified her on her personality, which I genuinely liked, and it gradually turned into me and her talking more and her friend contributing less (although I kept her engaged a bit). Then I asked what she did, and it turns out we were in the same industry. We bonded over this, we were both excited as we're both passionate about what we do, and I then went overt and direct:
"I liked you before when you were just attractive with a good personality. Now that I know we're both in _____, I'm really interested."
Now, this had the effect of really hooking her strongly, but it also may have created too much of a boyfriend frame. Truthfully I do actually like having someone to collaborate with, and we could probably help each other, but I know the real connection will come from penis in vagina, and that should be my priority. Planning too far in the future, without getting that done first, can be bad.
In her returning my interest, her friend sees this as the opportunity to excuse herself, and goes to talk to the rest of the group (about 4-6 other girls, maybe a guy or two, didn't pay attention). I then decide to get another water, and I offer to get her a drink (we're still both at the bar) at the same time (which I consider just standard socially, but especially now that we're making our interest overt. Also, she doesn't try to abuse this). I don't remember if I bought her one then or if she was still rather full. Either way, I get my water, and the lights get lower and the music louder.
At this point I suggest we move to a place "A little quieter" where we can both hear each other better. This is somewhere that the weather works against me, because going outside is not really an option (but is closer to a pull, and more secluded. With an outside smoking area or after we both finish or drinks, this could be good). However I settle for leading her to a long cushioned booth by one of the entrances. She tells her friends before we go, and once there we are out of their view and more or less isolated.
I sit down with my legs facing outwards, she sits with upper body and legs facing me, on the diagonal. Good sign of body language.
We talk and flirt for a while. She's easy and compliant. Laughs plenty. Nothing fancy here. I do take advantage of the leg closest to me which I feel she's "offering me" by resting my hand on it and stroking it gently from time to time.
At some point she wants to show me pictures of her work (again, we have this in common), and when she takes out her phone I use that as an excuse to exchange numbers. Now, I didn't have to do this, and in fact there may be something to be said to not doing this and having that tension there, but I could see it was on and I didn't want her group of friends to mess it up later.
Actually, this speaks to a greater issue, which is I should have been screening logistics better at this point. At this point I didn't know her friend was staying with her, and I didn't even know her relationship to her other friends. I think my thought process was mentioning them may lead to her thinking about them and to her thinking we should rejoin them i.e. bursting our little bubble. I don't think this is accurate in the cold analysis of right now, but I believe that was my thought then. Further, knowing the logistics was probably worth the risk.
So as we go through that, and she shows me her work, it turns out we have a common friend, one who is fairly close to both of us. This was a very fun revelation, in the sense that we met without their knowledge or setup but they would be happy if we got together, but may have been a double edged sword. So on the one hand while I'm now even more safe from this connection, if she was considering fast sex with me, she may choose not to do so for fear of reputation backlash.
At this point she suggests that we don't tell them we've met, but that we meet them out at a bar and I just come in and reveal that I know her (she may or may not have suggested we kiss at that). I suggest if we do that, I just walk up without saying a word and make out with her, and use as an example that sailor coming back from WW2 picture. She agrees with this. I then say that before I agree to this know, I need to know if she's a good kisser (turns out she really isn't! lol), and from here is a simple kiss close (her only objection is that it's only one kiss, she winds up kissing me four times, was not in any rush to stop. Also I could have been more conscious here of it and pulled back first).
On the kiss close, I go back and forth with it. On the one hand it creates the "It's On Moment" cred: 60yoc, but on the other it does release some tension, give her some validation, perhaps removes some mystery. I'm willing to hear different opinions on it i.e. should I make kissing her conditional on her leaving with me. And the other part, some girls are just shy about kissing in public, especially with a guy they are just meeting.
From here we have lots of relating and rapport, perhaps too much with me squandering the opportunity for setting some good frames or some good SOT's, or a push for that matter.
I think the "purity gambit" would have been good here,
SOT's like the honestly one I discussed with @Bacchus https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/poetic-injustice.21808/
The "who is the lucky one" with @Teevster https://www.skilledseducer.com/thre...discussing-old-lay-reports.21915/#post-107574
TVA: yeah, something really natural! I am not very much into getting laid, I mean if I get laid, she is the lucky one because I am going to fuck the shit out of her! but if I don't get any laid I don't really care, because I have some cool female friends (okey I wasn't sure if i would get away with this one
Or just some general non-judgmental sexual frames such as my new favorite one also from the same thread with Teevster.
"Why is it cool for me to lay 10 girls, and bad if you do so... by the way you really deserves it.", all would have been better to do here. I feel I spent too much time in comfort when I could have moved the seduction forward.
And I did use the "relaxed, expressive and enthusiastic" from Glow but not till later in the night. https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/seduction-oriented-topics.21690/
Also at some point she asks me if I'm a "thrill seeker", to which I reply "not in most things, probably business and romance are the only two. I'm excited to make money and also to meet a beautiful woman and be swept up in a passionate romance." She likes this answer. I ask her if she is one, to which she replies she is, and I ask her how. She then says she wants to go skydiving, and asks if I would go. I say "sure, let's go tomorrow, but we need to get up early for something like that so you'll have to sleep over." (this is all before I know her logistics by the way). She wants me to pinky promise, to which I'm hesitant (I don't know why, I could just lie to get out of it the next day, I'm not just going to jump out of a plane with this girl! lol), all the while I'm saying "but you have to spend the night." This kind of fades away.
Our relating continues, and hbshorty comes up to "check on us". She mentions our common friend, I say "we're very compatible" (to her agreement), all parties seem satisfied but again, too much boyfriend not enough lover and missed opportunities for good sexual frames. It may be here that her friend mentions going to the other bar, or they just mention going to the dance floor, I don't remember. Either way, they leave and we stay for a bit, continue to talk, and then decide to follow them after using the bathroom.
It is at this point I believe she mentions that hbshorty is staying with her.
I didn't consider a bathroom pull here, or any serious escalation, but something might have been possible if I had used the previous isolation more effectively.
We then find her friends on the dance floor. Her one friend gets low and starts popping her ass aggressively, I look instinctively, and she notices (and doesn't like it). I say "I noticed her dancing, not her. I like looking at you." and then she dances a bit with enthusiasm (she actually was on her college's dance team).
Now here's where I think the actual pull was make or break:
Her friend came over and said they were thinking about going to another bar, more of a club, down the street. It would be a loud dancing place. Now my excuse to not go was that we were having a great conversation (we were) and that place isn't built for talking. If we stayed at the first bar it would also mean total isolation with my girl. Basically, I believe I could have pulled like that.
What I wanted to do, which I've done before, is to pull my girl, fuck her, and then bring her back to her friend as if nothing happened. This was 100% possible, at this time of night it was around 12, 2 hours from bars closing. What I didn't do is A) pursued this full force once her friend mentioned it (I laid the groundwork saying it was louder there, and not our scene, but I needed to make it airtight) and B) when the moment of truth came, I didn't push it with the friend for concern of coming off poorly.
The objection was that her friend was staying with her and wouldn't be able to get back to her house, even though they were in a large group of girls. I mentioned giving her friend her address, but I felt it came off poorly at the time. I should have had my girl get a text ready with her address, and then had her tell her friend the plan (not do it myself). This is my guess, I'm open to alternative solutions.
Regardless, we all agreed to go to the other bar together.
While there her and I danced very close but she was careful not to kiss me in front of her friends (not that I cared much, and actually there really is no good reason to kiss her in front of them and plenty of reasons not to). Plenty of grinding though.
I saw a girl approach our group, who may have known someone in it, who looked vaguely familiar. Funny enough I knew I had met her before, but couldn't place where (I've narrowed it down to two possibilities), and I just figured it was probably at least vaguely negative haha (like, a girl I was talking to where it didn't work out). So at that point I told my girl I wanted to get a drink of water, and she followed me.
At the bar, and here is an example of how dressing well helps, one guy gave up his spot because he liked the way I dressed (and I've been getting a mix of compliments and challenges on my fashion lately, which I see as a positive).
Here she asks me why I don't drink. I tell her I'll tell her when she kisses me (again). She says maybe she'll kiss me. I tell her she will, and not to deny me affection, haha (playing around with dominance, but perhaps hurt me later. Regardless, she was being coy). She kisses me, and I move her over to a quiet place to talk.
I tell her I gave up drinking years ago when I realized it was something I do to release tension and be social, after a week of being tense and not social. I didn't like the pattern. She related to this and agreed she felt the same way. I think this question was asked because she felt odd that I was buying her an alcoholic drink but not drinking myself, and thought that might mean I was going to take advantage of her (a common notion with me not drinking and being at bars). Anyway, I think she was satisfied.
At this point I decided to take things sexual. I started with the relaxed, expressive and enthusiastic SOT, stating that her outfit was sexy yet classy, and that it seemed to me she was relaxed and expressive about her sexuality, that it meant I could be relaxed and expressive with mine, and that she and I could be enthusiastic together. This went over well. I then asked her if there was anything she didn't like sexually (decided to start there), to which she pushed back a little "why are we talking about this", and I replied "because I want to know if there are things not to do before we do them. Like I don't want to go down on you and then you tell me you don't like that" (she started to get excited by this).
She says she does like it when guys go down on her, but there was one guy who was all about her feet (haha). So I said, "I'm more of a boob guy. Which works out, since you have nice boobs." (She had already told me they were her favorite physical asset of hers, and they were very nice).
I then ask her about what she does like, she tells me hard sex, generally. Getting picked up. Thrown down. I also inquire about choking, which she says she likes, also hair pulling. She then tells me how when she cut her hair she realized she couldn't have her hair pulled like that anymore. And then, she went to her housemate and showed her that her hair couldn't be pulled anymore, haha. I asked how much information they share, and she said she knows when she brings guys back home, to which I reply "how many guys?" (and with a smile, not serious) which is open to interpretation for the answer but she actually ignores it (which is a good time to mention I never asked about her relationship history or status, just assumed she was single and went from there. A little background might have been useful).
At this point I ask her if she has any fantasies she hasn't tried, she starts to think and then hbshorty comes up. She's just complaining about creepy guys hitting on her on the dance floor. She asks her to come with her, and I say we're actually really enjoying it here (talking). And I can see my girl is a little torn, she mentions going to see people "who are only here for the night" (honestly don't know if she meant hbshorty or any of her other friends, again didn't probe logistics well), and I tell her "it's up to her" Could maybe have lead or been more dominant here.
We go back to the dance floor and I protect her from a drunk guy. Her friend actually thinks she needs to protect her from me and comes over to her, she sends her away (she tells me she didn't realize we were together already). She's a bit colder here, not grinding as much on me. My thought is that I overcooked her a little. I got her hot and bothered with the sex talk and then we went back to her friends, so then she's thinking that if we leave together we're probably going to have sex. But she doesn't think she wants that.
So when the lights go on, she stands in place and tells me we aren't going home together. I actually have to persuade her to come back to our original quiet spot to talk, because we really can't talk there, and I don't like this 180 attitude shift. We go over and then comes some of the good old standby's:
"I'm not that type of girl."
"I've been fucked over before, had sex too soon when I wanted a relationship."
the impractical
"What am I going to do, throw hbshorty out of the bed?"
and even
"I'm not going home with someone random" - I push back hard on this. Telling her it's insulting to call me someone random. And she apologizes.
Also, generally it was clear she was triggered, not feeling very good after we had come off the dance floor.
Edit: One somewhat successful frame I set here, in response to the above was to say I wanted passion in a relationship, that a good relationship always starts with passion, and that I want my women to be passionate. I feel this was helping some, although too little too late.
But I do feel that application of some of the better frames would have helped here. Also, had I gotten separation at 12 (instead being with the group at 2), I think I could have pulled on a plausible premise within 30 minutes of true isolation.
Another development is hbshorty came over and tried to take her to the bathroom. She said she didn't need to go. Hbshorty said come with me anyway. She said "No". So hbshorty leaves us alone.
Hbclassy suggests we meet soon but not stay over tonight, we discuss a late lunch tomorrow (never materializes), and leave it at that.
However on leaving my phone messes up with uber, so she reluctantly agrees to share and uber and then have me go home afterwards (she thinks even with this I can't be trusted, a real change). I wasn't even thinking of pushing this, since she was being way too erratic for my taste and I really don't know what her issues were/are. But we take an uber back to her place, I stay in it and then go home.
One possible change in her attitude I thought might have been that girl who I vaguely knew who might have knew a girl from the group, and that being part of the interference that happened when we returned to the dancefloor.
Finally, while we are in the uber, some other guy sends her a picture of him, telling her he's in town. He has some corny nickname for her so I say "is he gay", to which she responds "no" but agrees the nickname is bad/weird. I think about amoging some, but just let it go. Of course I also considered that she was going to meet up with him instead after, but she didn't leave my side the whole night (except in the bathroom in the first spot) and unless she sneakily checked her phone while she was on the dancefloor, I don't think that was what derailed me. But it's possible I suppose.
On a personal level it does make me disengage with any serious texting, knowing that there was a chance for an SNL and a real connection (and great experience) between us, and now she expects me to "get in line" or submit to the boyfriend interview process.
The next day I did wake up and text her about lunch, and she responded 30 mins prior with a long message about "not seeing this", that she dropped off hbshorty and was headed back to her parents, but "Definitely still want to meet up sometime!!".
I'm not optimistic (or enthusiastic) about it, but that's where it stands.
Key Points:
- I have to remember to check off all the boxes. I know to get logistics but I didn't do it. A consequence of rust.
- Make good use of my time in isolation. I remember reading something by @K__ a while ago about doing just the minimal amount of comfort to let her know I wasn't a serial killer. That would have been good advice here.
- Building on the previous point, there are a ton of good SOT's and sexual routines that I could have used there, I need to be more diligent about getting through them because they will prevent some common objections "I'm not that type of girl" and also build excitement.
- I knew the right move but I wasn't willing to risk for it, and I already had her number. So worst case if I pushed for us to stay here, or said "I'm staying here, I really don't like that place" there was always the possibility of texting later for a meetup. And it was early enough and with no shortage of cute girls.
- See clearly the consequences of going sexual but not pulling. There was another possibility that had I stuck more stubbornly to us hanging out together, and her telling me her fantasies, I could have kept turning her on to the point where the fact that we'd have to fuck on the couch would have been a moot point. Actually, her roommate was gone, so really she had a spare bed anyway, and I didn't even think of that because again, I was reacting to logistics instead of planning ahead.
All constructive comments and insights welcome.
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