Getting that first kiss and reading her signs

[Skippy]

I had the girl come over for a movie.

So we get under the sheets and I put my arm around her and we were watching the movie. In the middle, I started to hold her hand. She wasn't responding to my touch, but she didn't move her hand. She kept it there and let me hold it. I think she shifted her hand to help me out actually, but she didnt really hold back. It was just chilling in my hand like a dead fish. Then later, she removed her hand to get a drink of water, but she then took my hand again "because there was a scary part in the movie".
After, I mentioned a poster in my room and transitioned to talking about cats (In order to use Richard's cat nudge) (I still had my arm around her and we were still under the sheets)

Me: "do you know what cats do when they feel comfortable with someone? They nudge their face against yours" I nudge my face towards her(but it doesnt work out so well because we are sitting side-by-side. She pulls her face away. I just continued to talk about cats

The second time I tried to kiss her, I decided to just pull her chin towards me, but she resisted.(I think she thought I was trying to tickle her? idk)
I just framed it as her being ticklish.

Third time, was when she had to leave so I just said, before you leave, I have to give you a kiss and she said thanks! and came closer, but only offered her cheek. So I just kissed her cheek.
After she left, she messaged me:

Her: Thanks so much! I had a great time cooking and watching movie with you tonight~
Me: yeah I had a great time too I think next time, we can watch something more artsy
Her: Sure, I have absolute trust in your selection of movie. I'm back at the dorm now. good night!

Kind of unsure how to feel about this one. First of all, the positives: 1. I pushed my boundaries, and was more "unapologetic" about making moves such as putting my arm around her, or taking her hand. 2. I actually tried to go for the kiss(sort of).

Ultimately, I'm a little bit disappointed with the night because I was hoping for a first kiss at least, and I'm not sure if I blew my only chance with her. (She seems down to watch more movies so I don't know what that means)

Things, I could've worked on: 1. understanding her signs better. 2. being more persistent with the kiss.
I don't know if she likes me, or if I'm just deep in the friendzone. I've identified the two weakest parts of my game though: approach anxiety, and kissing.

Questions:
Do you guys have any insight this situation, how to proceed, what I could've done better etc...? I'll definitely invite her over for a movie again haha.

 

[ray_zorse]

From your description she seemed somewhat into you, guardedly attracted you might say. She did help you a little by taking your hand again, although she had to frame it as something else (shyness or anti slut defense? Anyway par for the course, maybe if you had done a better job of expressing attraction without being too explicit, or set some frames about sexual openness, she might have been more comfortable taking your hand). Anyway we've all had those dates where we hesitated to make a move because her body language and general demeanour just didn't seem receptive. So if that's your feeling then so be it. However I think you could have been much more of a badass. Why don't you try the "drinks kiss" instead of the cat nudge next time. Also if you did not escalate during the cooking process I think this might have been a big part of the issue. The more time she spends with you platonically the closer you get to "didn't make a move, attraction expired". Sounds like over half the date was finished before you made a move, and it was a pretty tentative one from which you backed off quickly. If you're planning to spend 3hrs together I would say touch her within 20 minutes (for me 5 minutes, but then I am a very touchy person), and be touching a lot more of her body by 40 minutes. Award her a break when dinner goes in the oven (say 60 minutes in) and make out with her leaving her wanting more, then eat and put video on and keep going. With this kind of girl you will need at least 2hrs to smash LMR so plan accordingly. Also in regards to the kiss at the end (1) don't kiss her if you can't lay her, it ruins the tension, rewards her resistance and signals you are going to court her (2) don't verbalize your intention, that's weak, practice your smouldering sexual vibe to get her horny and then gather your balls and do it (3) if she offers a cheek or a handshake don't comply e.g. "I kiss my grandma on the cheek... are you my grandma?" ... "my what edible lips you have grandmama" etc, turn it into a joke but DON'T accept her friendly frame. All things considered it may be game over now.
Ray

 

[Skippy]

Ray,

Why don't you try the "drinks kiss" instead of the cat nudge next time

What is the drinks kiss? This sounds familiar, but I can't quite remember.

Anyway par for the course, maybe if you had done a better job of expressing attraction without being too explicit, or set some frames about sexual openness, she might have been more comfortable taking your hand

yeah, I think I could've been more subtle. Once I brought up piano players' large hands and used that as an excuse to compare hand sizes with her. From there, I just intertwined my fingers with her. but then she rather quickly pulled them away. I'm probably missing something simple, but what would be some ways of expressing attraction without being too explicit?

Also if you did not escalate during the cooking process I think this might have been a big part of the issue.

Oh yea I forgot to mention the cooking, actually. What happened was I hugged her when she first came in. some other incidental contact, and then when she was sauteing the tofu I said
Me: very good! "but you need to be more relaxed" I start massaging her shoulders "The tofu can feel it if you are relaxed"
Her: but I am relaxed! (I think she turned a little red at that point? not sure"
(I got this idea from something similar in your field reports, Thanks! unfortunately, my execution was a bit clunky on that one)

I hugged her once we finished cooking, for "being a good helper". but that also came off as clunky to me.
I guess my touch was mostly platonic, though

Also in regards to the kiss at the end (1) don't kiss her if you can't lay her, it ruins the tension, rewards her resistance and signals you are going to court her (2) don't verbalize your intention, that's weak, practice your smouldering sexual vibe to get her horny and then gather your balls and do it

Yeah, I really need to stick to these two tips. I think what happens is I get frustrated when my attempts at a kiss fail and so I end up verbalizing intention as a last ditch effort. I was focusing too much on the kiss at that point and honestly didn't even care about getting laid, as long as I kissed her-- not a good mindset, I know. Also, it never occurred to me that kissing if you can't lay her rewards her resistance. Thats great insight. Thanks!

(3) if she offers a cheek or a handshake don't comply e.g. "I kiss my grandma on the cheek... are you my grandma?" ... "my what edible lips you have grandmama" etc, turn it into a joke but DON'T accept her friendly frame. All things considered it may be game over now.

Thats a cool technique! I can sort of see how it generalizes.

And yeah I do agree that I probably blew it On the bright side, I certainly learned a lot from this experience: 1. asking a girl back to my place is at least something I feel comfortable doing now! It also taught me that I can move much faster than I thought, in terms of bringing women back. 2. I've gotten more experience with touching a girl and I've had to think about "plausible deniability" more. I'm still a bit clunky with some moves, but more experience means I'll get smoother with it as time goes on. 3. As mentioned before, I now have a clearer idea of what to focus on. Honestly, if she hadn't approached me, none of this might've even transpired. It reminds me that I need to have some cajones and open girls first, otherwise, Its not under my control.

If I do manage to get her back for another movie should I basically run it as a repeat of this, with all the mentioned improvements?

Thanks for the feedback, Ray! Some really enlightening stuff
ShuaiGe

PS Even though last night, I started catching the feels for her(snuggling with a girl really does it for me), I realized that my feels were no different from other girls that I've fallen for. So I'm still almost completely okay with losing her. This is quite different from before...but maybe its still too early to tell.

 

[ray_zorse]

Hey mate from your description your escalation sounded just fine, what you probably needed was just a little more confidence to pull it off. Something like "but I'm already relaxed" sounds a lot like a test to me. First principle to remember is she really wants your touch. She wouldn't have isolated with you if she didn't. Keep this frame firmly in mind and ignore any conflicting evidence. Anything counter to your frame has another explanation such as ASD, lack of comfort, a test etc. So just hold your frame, assume attraction and you'll be sweet. She says this kind of thing for the purpose of seeing how you'll react. Here you could laugh and say "we will make you MORE relaxed" and then tickle her or something. Just treat it all as a game, don't take anything too seriously!

The drinks kiss is: Bring her in your apartment and get her comfortable (have her take off her shoes, give her the tour, let her use the toilet, fluff talk a bit, etc etc). In the process pour you both a drink and you'll end up sitting on the couch with your drinks. At a high point in the conversation give her some silence and strong sexual EC. Slowly put your drink down on the coffee table maintaining EC. Gently take her drink out of her hand and do the same. This is a real boss move and will have her thinking "oh oh, what happens next! OMG he is full of surprises! what a sexy dominant man". You then lean in to kiss her (I would also generally put my open palm on her cheek first to draw her in and guide her to mouth but you have to find your own style that you are comfortable with). Anyway that's my version, the version in the boards was a bit more bare-bones.

Expressing attraction: Your body language and sexual vibe. Make her feel she is the only one in the room. Don't break circle, move slowly, hold EC for slightly longer than is comfortable. Narrow your eyes a bit and think sexual thoughts. Add to this some deniable sexual frames. Eg the other night I am talking to a bar staff girl, actually a new girl at a place I know well. We are discussing the manager: "He is useless, just socializing all night while I am blah blah" I reply "It's good to entertain the customers... you would be very good at entertaining clients, wouldn't you", leaving half a beat of silence with strong EC as she considers what form this entertainment might take... and gets it... and gives a slow smile. Also using a lot of touch... and if you feel it appropriate, some attainability techniques such as qualifying her a lot. You can also just come right out and tell her you find her unbelievably sexy and you're going to violate every part of her body, but this is a very risky move and can only be used after significant investment on her part, otherwise you're supplicating to her beauty and attractiveness, don't do that.

As to the grandma technique it is a form of reframe called an outframe. Thing is, if you accept her frame (kiss her cheek), or fight her frame (I'm not kissing your cheek -- I'm not your girlfriend -- or try to use logic: Is that how you would normally end a date? I like you, I gave you a good time and now I want to kiss you)... either way it acknowledges her frame and you lose. What an outframe does is put a larger frame around the incident in which her actions make sense (the make-believe that she is your grandmother), overriding her frame.

Ray

 

[ray_zorse]

Ahh yeah in regards to your question about next steps: Read this article and plan accordingly. As you did not breeze past her tests (but also did not fail spectacularly either), my guess is you disqualified yourself as a lover but still have significant boyfriend value.

Honestly to me you sound like a really awesome guy, that's why I enjoy helping you (or trying to, to the best of my ability). I admire your persistence and willingness to try stuff and say "well I tried XXX and YYY happened, I didn't expect that, what should I change to have ZZZ happen"... girls seem to like your attitude too.

So, what I will suggest here might sound a bit risky but I have had (varying) success with it. I suggest you meet her on campus for a coffee before class or similar... something with a time limit, make no attempt to escalate... be a little flirty or teasing, but mainly just hang with her and see if an interpersonal connection really exists. Deep dive her and when it gets heavy, lighten the tension with a chase frame and continue.

Qualify her as appropriate and use this to turn her into the type of girl you want -> you: "I like sexually adventurous girls" her: "I'm sexually adventurous" you: "damn girl I don't believe you, what's the most sexually adventurous thing you've done" her: "I had public sex" you: (qualifies her, she is then committed to be/become this type of person around you, even though she wasn't before). A contrived example, in reality you'd be a lot more subtle and she would not even realize she's being qualified, but you get the idea.

By doing this you subtly turn things around so YOU are interviewing HER for the girlfriend role and not vice versa. She will be expecting you to isolate and escalate and her to put up a lot of resistance to both. By not doing so (temporarily) you put her guard down. The risk here is becoming a platonic girlfriend. To guard against this, keep your dates short, challenge her a lot, have solid fundamentals (your sexy vibe) and use chase frames. A few subtle sexual frames is nice but don't over-egg the pudding or you will scare her away.

Then if you want to be a real badass I suggest after a few platonic dates, a picnic in a public but rarely trafficked area and fuck her on the picnic rug. She will NOT be expecting this. But anyway the principle is semi-friendzone her to keep her guessing as to your intention, then when the moment is right, suddenly escalate and go all the way. This has worked for me after at least one failed escalation, but more to the point when I didn't do it I had a 0% success rate, you can't be a regular Joe here IMO.

Ray

 

[Skippy]

Thanks Ray for all your help and encouragement! You know, you've really helped me expand my comfort zones and I have a much better understanding of what it takes to go from "Hi, whats your name?" to "Good morning!". Many things which were "unicorns" for me, like bringing a girl home on the first or second date, are actually conceivable now, thanks to your advice.

Then if you want to be a real badass I suggest after a few platonic dates, a picnic in a public but rarely trafficked area and fuck her on the picnic rug. She will NOT be expecting this. But anyway the principle is semi-friendzone her to keep her guessing as to your intention, then when the moment is right, suddenly escalate and go all the way. This has worked for me after at least one failed escalation, but more to the point when I didn't do it I had a 0% success rate, you can't be a regular Joe here IMO.

A little bit about my situation. It's getting really cold where I live, so I probably wont be able to do it outdoors, but maybe I could try a classroom building?

Theres a building on campus that is always unlocked. What I'm thinking is I could tell her "we're going on an adventure" and then we'd get takeout from a nearby restaurant, go to the 3rd floor of the building, where there is a lounge with some sofas. Its technically a public place for students, but very few people are there at night since not many know it is unlocked. Some grad students and janitors are there, but the grad students are mostly in the basement, and janitors come at a fixed time. not too sure about that.

Timing wise, I only have two weeks because I will be gone for winter break, and because of finals week, I'll really only have time to do this thursday or friday the following week (at the end of finals week). So there is a slight risk she may be busy, but she will still be on campus then. If it turns out the lounge is not empty, there are a couple other rooms that we could use, but they will not have a sofa. oh and I'll be able to fit in the other dates anytime since they are supposed to be short.

In general, would a classroom building cause her to expect something and put her guard up? we will most likely have complete privacy(end of finals week+ late at night=no students).

 

[ray_zorse]

My rule is, if you are thinking it, do it. I got into many funny situations by following this rule. No consequences that I can think of. Only thing I would suggest is not to tell her what's up beforehand. Make some reason to meet near there at an appropriate time. Having said that, this might be just as challenging as a traditional style pull to home. The beauty of the picnic idea is it sounds totally innocent. If you had sufficient abundance you could just try another easy date (and just ditch her if she doesn't comply), but she'll know what's up and likely get cold feet or wriggle out of it somehow. Anyway I wouldn't invest too much mental energy in this girl, just be chill and let it tick over and you'll soon find out whether she's DTF.
Ray

 

[Skippy]

I met up with her for shakes before finals week. We just talked and I tried to set some frames about having crazy stories being a good thing. I only used eye-contact to show interest, but what would happen is we would just end up staring at each-others eyes until one of us (usually her) broke the tension.

Afterwards, I went back to the library to study, but I just had to message her this:

Me: just realized I especially liked your outfit today. I bet it's because you were meeting a cute guy for shakes
Her: Haha thanks! Your outfits always look good, too. I'm thinking I'll gradually replace my over sportsy clothes from China to more casual ones over the year~

^maybe that was a bit weak on my part. but lately I've been trying to add chase frames more

Through out the week, I talked to her a little bit on fb, but only because she initiated. Unfortunately, they started locking the classroom building because of the upcoming winter break, so I just messaged her to hang out at my place friday night. I didn't want to do any cooking with her, since I didn't want left-overs(I'd be gone for the break and my fight was the next morning) We went to an asian restaurant which kind of had a datey vibe to it, so that was probably not ideal, maybe we should've gotten takeout instead. She, as usual, ordered what I ordered. Then we went back to my apartment to watch movies.

Ray, you were absolutely right.

she started to get cold feet.
When we reach my room, she says:

Her: Since your roommates have left, can we sit in the living room and watch the movie?
Me(realizing what's probably going on): Well actually the couches are kind of dirty, as we haven't vacuumed them.

-- We end up talking about math, and we sit at my desk as I show her some cool proofs she was wondering about. Then I get up to set up my laptop for the movie:

Her: How about we just watch it at your desk?
Me: thats so uncomfortable!
Her: Well okay, I have to tell you something. Last time I was actually very nervous because I've never been this close to a guy before. My friends say they don't do that either. Sorry for making this awkward
Me: Let's just sit on the bed, we don't have to get under the sheets
Her: okay fine. Do we have to sit on the bed though?
she complies anyways

I sit down with next to her, but close off my body language. The movie we watched was pretty funny and I sense she is getting comfortable. She gets up to use the bathroom, and when she comes back I just instinctively put my arm around her(this is probably the smoothest I've been in my life haha). I can tell she's getting very comfortable with my arm around her because she seems to be pushing her shoulder into me more. I start tracing circles and figure 8's on her arm with the hand that was around her. I think it really raised the tension during the serious parts. However, she eventually told me to stop because it was getting distracting. (In hindsight, I was doing it for a pretty long time actually.) I would occasionally kiss her cheek and she would say "thanks".

We binge watched some episodes and she was getting tired so we checked the shuttle routs to see when the next shuttle would arrive. It would be for a long time, so we watched some more. Then she checked the time again and saw that it was past midnight.

She: "Happy 21st, birthday!" (damn! she remembered it was my birthday before I did)

We finally finished watching movies and we just had some deep conversation about our relationship with our parents(I made sure to show as little emotion so she doesn't think of me as her girlfriend, and I made sure to keep it positive even though my dad can be extremely frustrating haha, my mom's chill though), we talked about other deep topics. At this point she had forgotten all about the shuttle.
During this time, I was trying to triangulate and I thought maybe she was also looking at my mouth, but it was hard to tell since we were sitting side-by-side and her downward glances would be to the side. Whenever the conversation died out, she would resume it after about two seconds or so. Maybe I should have been faster with going for the kiss there.

I have to admit, her resistance about the bed really threw me off and I was too much of a wuss to go for the kiss. In hindsight she was dropping so many hints that she really liked me, she was complimenting my muscles, my teeth and my hair and she told me "you look really nice". Last time a girl did half of that, she was into me. I just kept second-guessing myself.

4am rolled around and she realized she was almost on the verge of pulling her first all-nighter. Since I needed to be up at 6, we decided to stay up the remainder of the night just talking and trying not to doze off. I was still using touch, but nothing that was too ballsy for me. around 8, she helped me carry my suitcases to the shuttle and then she went to her dorm to go sleep.


Thoughts:

I acted like quite the wet dishrag lol. I really need to figure out how to not chicken out. Honestly, I could've just told her to close her eyes and gone for it. I was just too worried she would freak out, given her conservative background. In fact, in my mind I had already assumed she would resist the first attempt and then I would have to muster up the courage to try again and I just couldn't get out of my head. That aside, though, I had a really good time, unlike the first movie date where I felt bad at the end. I feel like we have a tighter emotional connection, but I'm not sure if I'm attracted to her as much as I was before. Next time, taking her to the classroom building is sill an option, I guess. It's whatever. On the bright side, she wants to bake me a cake for my birthday! I don't think anyone has done that for me before besides family. She was one of 3 people(besides family) to remember it was my birthday since I didn't show it on facebook.

I think I'm not as worried about losing her as I was before. Also, I've been meeting with another girl(Daisy) who is already graduated. I'll try to invite her to my house for shenanigans. currently I'm back at home for winter break. This has overall, been the best semester for me girl-wise.

 

[ray_zorse]

Yeah dude, story of my life haha.

Still kicking myself over a beautiful Chinese girl this year who I approached at 9pm on a Sunday night, ended up taking her for darts and then pulling to home, kept escalating and got her quite turned on but the comfort level just wasn't QUITE there yet... I walked her to her home at 2am which took 45min or so, and built a shitload more comfort during the walk (holding hands and discussing deep personal topics) and basically she was begging to be pushed into her room and slammed down on the bed and fucked, but I did not realize (that I'd now built more comfort) and after much fucking around with an umbrella as she tried to buy time for me to escalate, I ended up settling for a kiss goodbye... FUCK realized my mistake the next morning.

Or another case last week during my Japanese holiday (my first cold approach date in a while), I built shitloads of comfort in the initial 45min insta-date and on the second meeting she docilely followed me straight into my hotel room to make tea, expecting me to throw her down on the bed and fuck her, but I actually could not quite believe it was that easy and missed my window. FUCK FUCK.

My mantra with conservative Asian girls: MOVE FASTER and hit your windows. Conservative girls crash very hard. Oh oh.

Drexel I am very keen to hear your thoughts. One question though, if you have a script or a transcript for your video coukd you send it to me? I watched some of your videos before and they were excellent, your speaking voice is very clear and your sentence structure is clear and concise, unlike most material on the web I could understand quite well, but not 100%.

Ray

 

[Big Daddy]

This thread is amazing, and I'm going to make a video about it tomorrow. I'll answer your questions and give you some insight into what's going on here. Cheers

This would be appreciated beyond human comprehension.

Please share the link here once it's up.

 

[Skippy]

Drexel- Thanks so much! I'm really curious to see what you have to say about this in your video. it seems this relates to a more general question that you want to address

Ray- I'll keep that in mind and move faster next time. Also, if there's no script for the video, I could just transcribe it for you.

 

[Skippy]

Just waiting on Chase to approve it, and then if he does he will put it in the article schedule. Cheers!

Really looking forward to it

Actually, this got me thinking about how this thread generalizes. I thought back to the other time a girl came over for a movie and I realized in both cases, the girls ended up prolonging the movie date. For example, this girl prolonged it by saying she was down to pull an all-nighter and she also prolonged it by asking about another movie that I had mentioned and we ended up watching it after the first one finished (before that she was saying that she was tired and wanted to take the shuttle back).
The girl from last year, Angela, prolonged the interaction by saying she wanted to show me another movie(and earlier she was saying it was late and she should go)
Honestly, it was just mind blowing to see such a pattern.

I decided to flesh out as much of my interaction with angela as I could remember. I'm going to look for more patterns between the two. I've already found a couple more actually. This is pretty exciting stuff.

 

[Big Daddy]

No idea when it's coming out? I've been checking the homepage ever since you mentioned the articles and there's only a couple of articles from other authors.

 

[Big Daddy]

Thank you Drexel

 

[Skippy]

I feel like I owe it to this thread to document the rest of my interactions with Kat until/(if?) it burns down. so here's what happened this time when she came over to my place tonight.
I had stopped talking to her after christmas because I was busy with stuff and I also wasn't sure if I was still attracted to her...But she messaged me a week after classes started to hang out. She was mainly the one trying to get it set up.

When I saw her, she looked amazing. I think she had done something to her eyebrows and she was wearing eye-liner. even though she was wearing a sweater, her boobs looked really big. She baked me a bag of cookies for my birthday last month. We went to eat dinner at a restaurant across the street and then we came back to watch movies again(this time, I picked an intense horror movie and when the scary parts came, I used it as an excuse to wrap my arms around her to make her feel safe). She's super comfortable with my touch, would eventually start leaning into me when my arm was around her and when I kissed her neck, she really liked it.

I shifted the conversation to "spontaneous things" that we had done and told her to close her eyes. After some coaxing, she finally closed her eyes. I didn't want to kiss her without warning, so I tried to turn her chin towards mine with my finger, but she wouldn't budge her chin. Then she opened her eyes and asked "why would you do that" but not in an angry tone, more so curious/confused I think?

One thing which came up that I wasn't quite sure how to respond to(other than the kiss attempt getting rejected) was when we were watching kpop videos and she said "maybe you should date a korean girl" referring to the fact that guys and girls like kpop because they're really attracted to the musicians.(although who isnt )

I just replied "yea, I mean there's a bunch of korean girls out there" and brushed it off. She left around 3:30 because of shuttle routs and the fact that she was tired. I tried to convince her to stay over but I wasn't too persistent

Me: Why don't you crash over here tonight?
Her: Oh no, but thanks for the offer
Me: I mean you wouldn't be imposing or anything...In fact I even have a spare toothbrush
Her: I'm sorry, but It just wouldn't be the same as sleeping in my bed. It would feel more like a nap, but thanks for offering.

(also, even if I convinced her to stay over, I wasn't mentally prepared to also try and convince her to cuddle in the same bed with me, So I dropped it.)

One thing I noticed is that it's much easier to try and kiss a girl again, if you've already mustered up the courage to try the first time, but I just didn't create the opportunities to try it again.

 

[Skippy]

Thanks Drexel! You gave me tons of advice which I'll now apply on future dates. and as for the situation, you were right, it was a combination of 2 and 3. she was nervous but she also had some weird hangup about sex and physical contact in general. We went out on Valentine's day so I figure I probably could've gone the traditional boyfriend rout if I wanted to, but nah. she still comes over occasionally, but I've been dating other girls now so I've lost interest in her. she's still a good friend though.

 

[HellAtlantic]

Thanks Drexel, loved the video article.