Girl rejected hug at the end of date. How bad is it?

[Whiteheart]

I meet this girl on Tinder and we scheduled date for the next day. Because it happened to me earlier that girl panics before date and flakes due to that, I told her on Tinder to stay cool, relaxed and that date is unofficial.

Date was the walk near lake in park. We hugged at the beginning of date when we meet in person. Date went well, she was little bit awkward and shy and didn’t reacted especially well on my arousal attempts (I wanted to break rules with her and she said she is type of person that respect rules. Then, later I still broke some smaller rules) but we build amazing connection. I mean nearly 100% similarity. Personality, interests, everything,… It rarely happens to me. What I didn’t like on date were three things:

• I proposed her some options for the second and third date; she agreed for both of them but said she is available for the second date for about 7-14 days and for the third date for about 14-21 days after our first date. I didn’t like this because it ”dilute” time for the escalation and maybe shows she is not all that interested.
• She often tried to lead date, i.e. length of path we will walk and time for ending to date. This could mean nothing bad, but also I know that girls do this when they want to friend zone somebody, i.e. they take the lead and decide what will do with him on date.
• At one point I asked her what she thinks about me. She told me I not the type of person that repels her and she wants to spend more time with me, but also because I on Tinder used word ”unofficial” and told her ”to be cool and relaxed about date" she acts friendly toward me. I didn’t like that, but just smiled and playfully told her that maybe consider me more than that. I wanted to know clearly her opinion so I asked her more and only got vague responses. I didn’t want to validate her so I told her that I don’t have formed completely formed opinion for her, and like to know people better before I slot them in categories. Then I mentioned stories about my experience with some of my ex gf (tried to pump value and build preselection).

Date was approaching near the end and I tried to hug her for goodbye. She rejected hug and said she doesn’t like hugging and it is not her style. I smiled and we made ”high five” punch with closed fists.

Now I am worried, if she already friend zoned me and how bad is that she avoided hug? Due to these doubts I am not sure if I will want to ask her out more. What little bit upsets me is female ingratitude. I understand that I am not the most attractive guy, but we had amazing connection, I used some tech to actively build arousal and improved my nonverbals as I could. Honestly failed first dates and the thing that hurts me the most in seduction especially if girl is somewhat similar to me and is clear that we can have some good relationship. Your opinion please?

 

[Will_V]

Don't take anybody's opinion as gospel, if she wants to go out again then go ahead and see what happens.

Did you escalate? Telling her to maybe consider you as 'more than that' is not escalation. Did you use touch, heavy eye contact, teasing, sexual tension, even sexual topics of conversation? Did you lead the interaction, move her around, suggest going to yours?

Beware than similarity and connection is NOT the same as sexual arousal. A woman can be hot and wet for a guy she has nothing in common with and even dislikes, and similarly she can have a male buddy she can talk to until the morning light without so much as considering kissing him.

The point is that if you want something to go somewhere, you have to make it happen. It sounds honestly like she wasn't feeling a sexual vibe from you, and has maybe already friendzoned you.

Also, planning the second and third date .. ? This is tinder my friend.

 

[Whiteheart]

I tried to escalate but she was not into it. Also, she didn't react on standard arousal tech. That is thing that also annoys me, when girls from the beginning decides I am not sexy enough (although I look, dress and sound good) and gives me hard time with making her more horny. My vibe generally isn't good, sometimes I am nervous and tired, sometimes I am more or less horny, but I also know a lot of guys who are not ideal with attractiveness and still get the girl. What sorrows me is that I do my things the best I can i.e. building similarity, arousal as much as how I know and still it is not attractive enough.
I had plans for the second and third date, she agreed she would like (she can change her mind anyway) but I am not sure if I will proceed further with her. Thanks for your time.

 

[Will_V]

I tried to escalate but she was not into it. Also, she didn't react on standard arousal tech. That is thing that also annoys me, when girls from the beginning decides I am not sexy enough (although I look, dress and sound good) and gives me hard time with making her more horny. My vibe generally isn't good, sometimes I am nervous and tired, sometimes I am more or less horny, but I also know a lot of guys who are not ideal with attractiveness and still get the girl. What sorrows me is that I do my things the best I can i.e. building similarity, arousal as much as how I know and still it is not attractive enough.
I had plans for the second and third date, she agreed she would like (she can change her mind anyway) but I am not sure if I will proceed further with her. Thanks for your time.

Don't blame the girl. A girl doesn't really control her horniness, she's just reacting to something you said or did or didn't do or just your whole vibe.

Sexual escalation is not 'tech', it is about desire and the correct expression of it. It starts with her turning you on, and then you finding ways to express that energy in intentful and leading behaviour. It has nothing to do with her gratitude or help, only her acceptance of and submission to your will.

 

[Whiteheart]

I don't blame anybody. Are my vibe and game perfect? No. But, is she the most beautiful girl on earth? No. Thing is that girl from the beginning will be closed off or will decide after a very short time (minute or less) if she is into me or not. After that, everyting I do is irrelevant. Also, in the beginning of interaction I may be a little bit nervous that would block showing good vibe or something like that, and girl will have zero tolerance for that.

Thing is that I probably don't have good vibe, but have good nonverbals that show masculinity and some verbal tech. Girls watch porn as well as men do. This also decreases their hornyness and put men in situation that have to be attractive more and more for the same level of arousal requared for interesting them. Also, often it is not situation that I am declared as somewhat attractive and similar a lot which will give me at least boyfriend zone. This is no attrative at all and friend zone. But life goes on...

 

[Beck Bass]

some options for the second and third date

Why would you plan a third date before you even went to the second? lol
Not to be an ass, but I think this already shows too much investment from your part of wanting to hangout with her not only again, but multiple times (what if second date is awkward? Will you expect a third still? She will be thinking those types of things and chances are she won't even come on a second...). Also you should be trying to close everytime, hopefully you're banging her on second date, not waiting for the third for no reason.

She often tried to lead date, i.e. length of path we will walk and time for ending to date. This could mean nothing bad, but...

Depends a lot on how she "leads" and how you accept it/reframe it.
I myself love when girls make minor decisions for me, like where we going or what type of food we'll have (I eat pretty much anything and as a stereotypical Libra have a hardtime making decisions, I like to think about all the minor details to make sure I'm making the best decision, but of course this many times backfires). If a girl starts doing something that's counterproductive to the seduction, though, you gotta reframe and take control, in a smooth way, like say you wanna isolate to escalate physically on the park and she wants to go closer to a crowd there, you could say "don'tchu think those trees over there look like a better place to chill? there's so much people there I won't even be able to hear you. We can always go back there later if you still want to ".

Your opinion please?

Tbh I think you're obsessing too much about not being attractive enough and not paying enough attention to game, to the process. As @Will_V said, you gotta be getting compliance, touching, deepdiving (I assume you did a bit at least since you said you were both very similar, still), that type of stuff, and only talking is not enough most of the time, unless you have that supersexual aura where just talking and eyefucking a girl she gets turned on and feels closer to you, you HAVE to touch, at least a bit, to break that barrier.
You will only know how she truly feels about you sexually if you try to get sexual (with calibration, of course, don't put your D out after saying hello to a girl lmao), so basically you gotta be trying to get more and more compliance. Forget about trying to get her opinion of you verbally, the way you're doing it does you no favors, you just come across as needy (again, I don't wanna offend, and there's no way to give 100% accurate help without knowing everything that went on).
So believe that you're attractive first man, and then go out there and see the girls that are really into you. There are many more reasons to a girl rejecting you or not giving you a chance on something than just you not being attractive. Get that out of your head. Try to improve your fundamentals everytime you can, yes, but you have to assume you're attractive, otherwise how do you even approach girls or try anything?

Best of luck to you man, peace

 

[Beck Bass]

Your opinion please?

After thinking a bit, actually, I feel like she's getting that pl-pl-player vibe from you, I mean, you met on Tinder, then you say it's "nothing official" (she mentioned it herself, so probably she wanted more?). Maybe she wants something more serious, so she's boyfriend hunting and you seem like too casual of an option (you did good I think on saying something along the lines of "maybe you can change my mind"). Also maybe she just wants you to say you want more with her but it's just for her ego, like she's not even interested in you. It's really hard to tell from what I read, but if wants to go on more dates I suppose she's into you. If I was in your shoes, I would dial back the whole "I must DHV!" ex-gf type of stuff and focus on creating a bond with her and making her confortable with you. Also, I would say that I'm not really looking for something serious (setting expectations is important), but that I'm open to more if I find a girl I really like.

 

[Whiteheart]

Why would you plan a third date before you even went to the second? lol
Not to be an ass, but I think this already shows too much investment from your part of wanting to hangout with her not only again, but multiple times (what if second date is awkward? Will you expect a third still? She will be thinking those types of things and chances are she won't even come on a second...). Also you should be trying to close everytime, hopefully you're banging her on second date, not waiting for the third for no reason.

In fact I proposed her multiple options for the second date. I started to use this strategy, so girl can choose what she likes the most so it lowers the possibility to flake later. In this case she said she liked both of my proposals so it came out that we will go on two more dates.

Depends a lot on how she "leads" and how you accept it/reframe it.
I myself love when girls make minor decisions for me, like where we going or what type of food we'll have (I eat pretty much anything and as a stereotypical Libra have a hardtime making decisions, I like to think about all the minor details to make sure I'm making the best decision, but of course this many times backfires). If a girl starts doing something that's counterproductive to the seduction, though, you gotta reframe and take control, in a smooth way, like say you wanna isolate to escalate physically on the park and she wants to go closer to a crowd there, you could say "don'tchu think those trees over there look like a better place to chill? there's so much people there I won't even be able to hear you. We can always go back there later if you still want to ".

Thanks a lot. Now I see that isn't everything pessimistics I as thought.

Tbh I think you're obsessing too much about not being attractive enough and not paying enough attention to game, to the process. As @Will_V said, you gotta be getting compliance, touching, deepdiving (I assume you did a bit at least since you said you were both very similar, still), that type of stuff, and only talking is not enough most of the time, unless you have that supersexual aura where just talking and eyefucking a girl she gets turned on and feels closer to you, you HAVE to touch, at least a bit, to break that barrier.
You will only know how she truly feels about you sexually if you try to get sexual (with calibration, of course, don't put your D out after saying hello to a girl lmao), so basically you gotta be trying to get more and more compliance. Forget about trying to get her opinion of you verbally, the way you're doing it does you no favors, you just come across as needy (again, I don't wanna offend, and there's no way to give 100% accurate help without knowing everything that went on).
So believe that you're attractive first man, and then go out there and see the girls that are really into you. There are many more reasons to a girl rejecting you or not giving you a chance on something than just you not being attractive. Get that out of your head. Try to improve your fundamentals everytime you can, yes, but you have to assume you're attractive, otherwise how do you even approach girls or try anything?

Thanks a lot. You gave me new mindsets.

Best of luck to you man, peace

 

[ulrich]

I think some important context is missing.
You’re saying that she did not react well but you don’t seem to have picked up on her feelings or mental state.

These signals can mean a lot of different things depending if she was:

a) feeling anxious because she is a shy person
b) feeling in danger because it’s her first Tinder date
c) feeling disappointed because you don’t look like your pictures
d) feeling forced because you were too straightforward
Etc...

Tinder and apps can sometimes get you some nutcases... and you also get a lot of girls to whom your attainability is nonexistent from the start (“this Tinder guy surely just wants to fuck”).
So this might be something that you did as much as something she is carrying already in her mind.

I have met girls who don’t like to be touched at all before they are deep into seduction. They are usually conservative and shy.
That is her, not you.

So how do you think SHE was feeling at the moment?

 

[Whiteheart]

Thanks a lot. Hope some of these things mentioned above is the case and not that she is fully uniterested. Maybe she was uniterested and it was her way to show me that doesn't like proximity with me and maybe it is some of the things above. Who knows.

I don't know honestly how she was feeling. Conversation was awesome but I know that some women are too picky and minor thing in fundamentals, game or vibe can make them uninterested. She gave some vague silly responses at my "what do you think about me" like "bla bla bla I don't want to say to you in face"... And "due to you wrote on Tinder that I should be relaxed I possitioned myself friendly". If she came on date with mentally friend zoning me its her problem.

She was little bit shy and awkward that is sure. Didn't reacted much on my spontaneity. Like she already planned how long date will last and how far we will go. There were cases when girl liked my personality but didn't like my style and wanted to spend time with me in the limits of friend zone. I honestly hope this isn't that case. I will think more about it. Based on above opinions and hope more others that will be posted and my evaluation of date once again with cold head I will decide if I will invest more time in this girl.

I gave my best: deep diving, storytelling, some rule breaking, said some silly things, once or twice touched her. My vibe (and mood) was neutral, not good or bad. If all that wasn't enough and she doesn't care about good things I provided and wants someone more attractive and surely less similar that is her problem. My conscience is clear.

 

[Will_V]

Thanks a lot. Hope some of these things mentioned above is the case and not that she is fully uniterested. Maybe she was uniterested and it was her way to show me that doesn't like proximity with me and maybe it is some of the things above. Who knows.

I don't know honestly how she was feeling. Conversation was awesome but I know that some women are too picky and minor thing in fundamentals, game or vibe can make them uninterested. She gave some vague silly responses at my "what do you think about me" like "bla bla bla I don't want to say to you in face"... And "due to you wrote on Tinder that I should be relaxed I possitioned myself friendly". If she came on date with mentally friend zoning me its her problem.

She was little bit shy and awkward that is sure. Didn't reacted much on my spontaneity. Like she already planned how long date will last and how far we will go. There were cases when girl liked my personality but didn't like my style and wanted to spend time with me in the limits of friend zone. I honestly hope this isn't that case. I will think more about it. Based on above opinions and hope more others that will be posted and my evaluation of date once again with cold head I will decide if I will invest more time in this girl.

I gave my best: deep diving, storytelling, some rule breaking, said some silly things, once or twice touched her. My vibe (and mood) was neutral, not good or bad. If all that wasn't enough and she doesn't care about good things I provided and wants someone more attractive and surely less similar that is her problem. My conscience is clear.

Look man I understand how this kind of interaction can rub the wrong way. It sounds like she was guarded, to say the least, and maybe slightly antagonistic, which is definitely not the kind of attitude that makes for a good date. And it sounds like you did a decent job throughout in terms of fundamentals.

But here's the problem, whether you like it or not, she stole the frame, and you didn't get it back. The way you are now reacting to her attitude toward you - an attitude which appears to be aloof, low investment, making the other person give more than you do - is ideally what you want her to be feeling about you. Because she is supposed to be the follower, and you the leader.

And the feeling that something the other person did was 'unjustified' or 'uncaring' is typically the kind of reaction that someone with a weaker frame has toward someone with a stronger frame. Girls are always thinking guys do things that are just a tad unjustified or uncaring - and that's what keeps the guy in the zone of having a stronger frame - one of 'I do what the fuck I want and that's it, you toddle along if you want to.'

So it seems to me that you failed to handle her brattiness, and she felt that. You showed a lot of investment (suggesting multiple more dates) and expressed your interest (telling her that she should see you as something more than a friend) without her earning it, and even after she had already said/done things you didn't like. She felt like she could get away with doing things on her terms.

In my opinion, you should have pressured her. Whenever she gave a weird comment or refused to answer your question, you need to press her on it, with a mix of seriousness and playfulness. This is making her jump through your hoops. If she can't or won't, she's failed to measure up. Escalation is a series of compliance requests of greater and greater magnitudes, and the moment one fails, you have to figure out how to fix it before you can get to the next one.

Don't worry about it, this happens. When you're feeling great and in the moment and just want to share a good time with somebody, taking them to task requires a mental shift, and it feels easy to just let it go and hope all the good vibes smother it (it won't).

Same thing happened to me, had a date not long ago with a testy girl and I just kept ignoring her stuff and giving her lots of eye contact, deep diving and attention. It seemed to work for a while - she was vibing a bit better toward the end - but ultimately she just wasn't feeling it, and never responded to text after that. And it was because she knew she was a bit of a brat, and could not allow herself to be given to someone who came across as incapable of tackling it.

 

[Whiteheart]

Look man I understand how this kind of interaction can rub the wrong way. It sounds like she was guarded, to say the least, and maybe slightly antagonistic, which is definitely not the kind of attitude that makes for a good date. And it sounds like you did a decent job throughout in terms of fundamentals.

But here's the problem, whether you like it or not, she stole the frame, and you didn't get it back. The way you are now reacting to her attitude toward you - an attitude which appears to be aloof, low investment, making the other person give more than you do - is ideally what you want her to be feeling about you. Because she is supposed to be the follower, and you the leader.

And the feeling that something the other person did was 'unjustified' or 'uncaring' is typically the kind of reaction that someone with a weaker frame has toward someone with a stronger frame. Girls are always thinking guys do things that are just a tad unjustified or uncaring - and that's what keeps the guy in the zone of having a stronger frame - one of 'I do what the fuck I want and that's it, you toddle along if you want to.'

So it seems to me that you failed to handle her brattiness, and she felt that. You showed a lot of investment (suggesting multiple more dates) and expressed your interest (telling her that she should see you as something more than a friend) without her earning it, and even after she had already said/done things you didn't like. She felt like she could get away with doing things on her terms.

In my opinion, you should have pressured her. Whenever she gave a weird comment or refused to answer your question, you need to press her on it, with a mix of seriousness and playfulness. This is making her jump through your hoops. If she can't or won't, she's failed to measure up. Escalation is a series of compliance requests of greater and greater magnitudes, and the moment one fails, you have to figure out how to fix it before you can get to the next one.

Don't worry about it, this happens. When you're feeling great and in the moment and just want to share a good time with somebody, taking them to task requires a mental shift, and it feels easy to just let it go and hope all the good vibes smother it (it won't).

Same thing happened to me, had a date not long ago with a testy girl and I just kept ignoring her stuff and giving her lots of eye contact, deep diving and attention. It seemed to work for a while - she was vibing a bit better toward the end - but ultimately she just wasn't feeling it, and never responded to text after that. And it was because she knew she was a bit of a brat, and could not allow herself to be given to someone who came across as incapable of tackling it.

Honestly, it is a little bit my fault because she stole my frame. You see, at the beginning of interaction I decided to experiment a little and let her to lead conversation by asking me things. Also, I let her choose the path we will go. Hoped that I will get more investment from her on that way. And it did work, later the conversation was active with both parts talking and listening. BUT in backfired and looks like she decided that she can control situation and lead date how she wants. I wasn’t counting on that.

No, I proposed multiple options for the second date before I asked her what she thinks about me. Not later. I always propose second date in the middle of date when conversation is good. Then, when she started to mention friendship, I mentioned that should maybe consider me more (you are right I should not do this) and told her that I haven't yet formed opinion about her. Somewhere I have read that women are most attractive to guys where they don’t know what they think about them.

You gave me good notice that I should care more about dominant frame in interaction. Looks like women should be dominated from the beginning and without exception. Hope that not all is lost with this girl, anyway because she was not very warm I will not invest in her as much as I planned and won’t expect something will happen. Life is cruel, and especially when you have situation like this when two people are potentially great partners and where low level of tolerance for man’s mistakes and mutual misunderstanding prevent good things happen. I am not SIMP but I liked this one. Anyway there are other girls.

 

[Will_V]

Honestly, it is a little bit my fault because she stole my frame. You see, at the beginning of interaction I decided to experiment a little and let her to lead conversation by asking me things. Also, I let her choose the path we will go. Hoped that I will get more investment from her on that way. And it did work, later the conversation was active with both parts talking and listening. BUT in backfired and looks like she decided that she can control situation and lead date how she wants. I wasn’t counting on that.

No, I proposed multiple options for the second date before I asked her what she thinks about me. Not later. I always propose second date in the middle of date when conversation is good. Then, when she started to mention friendship, I mentioned that should maybe consider me more (you are right I should not do this) and told her that I haven't yet formed opinion about her. Somewhere I have read that women are most attractive to guys where they don’t know what they think about them.

You gave me good notice that I should care more about dominant frame in interaction. Looks like women should be dominated from the beginning and without exception. Hope that not all is lost with this girl, anyway because she was not very warm I will not invest in her as much as I planned and won’t expect something will happen. Life is cruel, and especially when you have situation like this when two people are potentially great partners and where low level of tolerance for man’s mistakes and mutual misunderstanding prevent good things happen. I am not SIMP but I liked this one. Anyway there are other girls.

Don't be hard on yourself, it sounds like the type of date that would have gone well with a more chill girl. And there's nothing wrong with still wanting her, it doesn't make you a simp. Personally I like girls that are a little bit testy and rebellious, because I like the feeling when they do accept my frame. Especially when the attitude is more of a defense mechanism protecting a soft core, they can be a lot of fun when they start to comply.

But every girl is different.

Also, I don't think it was necessarily a bad idea to let her lead a little bit. The important thing is to be able to take the frame back at any time, and especially at points when she has done something you don't like. Like every art that involves more than one person, seduction is not so much about technique, but more about timing.

If I was you, I would look at it as a test of certain set of your abilities. The ability to lead from behind. The ability to apply pressure when needed. And the ability to stop yourself from doing anything that you don't want to do with a girl who has a strong (but not as strong as yours) frame.

 

[ulrich]

I really don’t want to jump to conclusions... hence why I was asking about how she was feeling.

But if I had to guess, I would say probably that was her first Tinder date... maybe she was feeling anxious... and maybe she was thinking that you are a player and were just looking to score... you keeping the date “informal” and “low commitment” fed her suspicions even more.

So, too low attainability perhaps.

 

[Whiteheart]

I really don’t want to jump to conclusions... hence why I was asking about how she was feeling.

But if I had to guess, I would say probably that was her first Tinder date... maybe she was feeling anxious... and maybe she was thinking that you are a player and were just looking to score... you keeping the date “informal” and “low commitment” fed her suspicions even more.

So, too low attainability perhaps.

Definitely agree about she was nervous, suspicious, anxious, etc. Just don't know this about low attainability. I am afraid that maybe low value was cause. There is one Chase's article about using hugs where he say that high value man should use hugs for raising attainability while the other men should avoid it. Also, drawback of hugs are that due to high attainability can lead to friend zone.

Since she rejected my hug this could mean that she doesn't see me as high value man so there is no need for hugging and could also mean that she feels too much tension or is just nervous (suspicious about Tinder date and I did something that increased that) so doesn't want to be touchy. Anyway we hugged at the beginning of date (she was little bit suspicious then but still hugged me) but not at the end of date. I found on internet various female comments, i.e. some of them doesn't like to be hugged at all, some of them only hug men they like, some of them can hug everybody.

If Chase has time I would appreciate his judgment about this. One more things about hugs. A lot of time I got hug from girls and milfs that we not interested in me. So maybe this one that rejected hug isn't such a bad thing. Anyway, hug is just a symptom. And her nervousness is one side of coin. I probably should do other things better as @Will_V and I talked.

 

[Will_V]

Is there anything in particular you did that seemed to go down really well and increase her openness and compliance toward you?

 

[Whiteheart]

Is there anything in particular you did that seemed to go down really well and increase her openness and compliance toward you?

I can't remember. No, probably not. We started talking since we meet and that is it. I tried to use little bit arousal mixed with connection at first, i.e. we crossed the street outside pedestrian crossing, and she didn't like that so I went just for connection.

 

[Whiteheart]

One more thing. Additional info. Also, a lot of couples in my town go to museums on dates. I didn't call her to museum for second date but asked her through deep diving about museums and she said it is boring to her. She accepted some dates offer that include activity and board games mixed with activity so I also wonder is she really interested in me (maybe also nervous or something) or uniterested but likes our connection and wants to use me as fun provider. God knows.

 

[Beck Bass]

Thanks a lot. Now I see that isn't everything pessimistics I as thought.

Actually, her leading can be a great thing, it shows investment, after all she's doing the work, so for the most part it will help you, as long as she's going along with the seduction.

Since she rejected my hug this could mean that she doesn't see me as high value man so there is no need for hugging and could also mean that she feels too much tension or is just nervous

About the hug part, I only hug girls I have some emotional investment, in the sense that we've slept together many times and feel confortable with each other, like have this special affection towards one another, or girls that are strictly my friends (and we have some sort of affection, in a platonic way). I think hugging girls I just met and I'm trying to bed can actually help me get friendzoned lol (I rather keep some tension between us, in the sense that everytime we touch the stakes are high, in a sense, of course this can be a bit polarizing, but with good eye-contact/eye-fucking it can make girls long for your kiss and, when it happens, escalating further should be easier as well, as girls will be more turned on). My style of kino is more minimal, I'll touch the girl as I pre-open and I'll clasp her hand when we introduce ourselves or meet again, and try to do some incidental touch on high points in the conversation, but other than that, I will just eye fuck her really hard most of the time and when I feel like it's time, I'll get close, stare at her and go for the kiss (I'll also hold girls hands when I can, forgot about that lol, but generally when I feel like they want me to kiss them, to get more confirmation and get them more confortable with my touch). Here in Brazil most girls are confortable kissing people in public, so I don't know if this process if super effective everywhere in the globe, but I suppose the general gist of it should be.
I haven't really read this article about hugging, maybe @Chase can explain it a bit better? If he says so, it should be good tech though haha


About museums, I think a lot of people find them kinda boring, myself included hehe, so just ask her go to elsewhere, I don't think it has anything to do with her not wanting to see you, necessarily.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

Line by line

I meet this girl on Tinder

-1 point

and we scheduled date for the next day.

+ 3 (2) If she's willing to come out the next day, that's high interest generally speaking.

Because it happened to me earlier that girl panics before date and flakes due to that, I told her on Tinder to stay cool, relaxed and that date is unofficial.

0 (2) - Setting expectations can be good for skittish girls, but if anything more romantic happens and the girl isn't ready for it, a lot of girls will anchor on "what you said".

Date was the walk near lake in park.

-2 points - Walking dates (hiking dates, coffee dates, drinks only dates) means lots of talking, which is not great if you're not an over the top conversationalist. Moreover, a lake near the park might not have much to see - unlike a walk downtown among a lot of people.

What was your plan hear to get her back to your place? Or were you gonna do a short 1st date and then follow up with a more romantic/intense second date?

Total (-2)

We hugged at the beginning of date when we meet in person.

+1. (-1)

Date went well, she was little bit awkward and shy and didn’t reacted especially well on my arousal attempts

0 points - the date did not got well if she was awkward, shy, and not open to "arousal attempts".

(I wanted to break rules with her and she said she is type of person that respect rules.

Not gonna give any points here, this is one of those things that's really contextual

If you're setting up a good girl/bad boy dichotomy, you need to express that.

Then, later I still broke some smaller rules) but we build amazing connection.

This a philosophy pov.

Did breaking her rules create the "amazing" connection or take away from it?

How could a guy know?

I mean nearly 100% similarity. Personality, interests, everything,… It rarely happens to me. What I didn’t like on date were three things:

-1 pt. This is not good. If you're looking for a soul mate/life partner - maybe...but even in that case, i'm of the opinion that good girls and bad girls have to be swept off their feet and into bed asap - because the good girl will see it as true love and the bad girl will see it as just another Tuesday night.

Guys that want to take it slow have to be super high value to the girl in particular, as well as having a lot of girls in rotation.

Now this is culturally specific to the West. I didn't see anything about your culture/location, which would change my analysis some.

• I proposed her some options for the second and third date; she agreed for both of them but said she is available for the second date for about 7-14 days and for the third date for about 14-21 days after our first date.

- 2 points. Thirsty and dates way in the future.

Going back to similarity - that's not necessarily attractive to a girl in the short term.
And pushing for date 2 while still on date 1 just isn't a good look.

You can do always do what you want, of course, but the sub-communication is that usually that you are willing to clear your schedule for a girl that hasn't invested much.

• I didn’t like this because it ”dilute” time for the escalation and maybe shows she is not all that interested.

Things will come up between now and then, especially if she's a cute girl that's doing online dating.
Girls will agree to that stuff to release the pressure on them, so they can fadeaway later.

This looking more and more like a traditional AFC date, rather than an interaction geared around YOU having choice.

That's not the point of PUA, imo.

• She often tried to lead date, i.e. length of path we will walk and time for ending to date. This could mean nothing bad, but also I know that girls do this when they want to friend zone somebody, i.e. they take the lead and decide what will do with him on date.

Did you put her back in her place?
If you aren't asserting leadership, taking leadership, a girl will take it.

A lot of guys think that girls are naturally submissive.

They are not. Like unruly children, you have to offer unpredictable positive rewards but very predictable correction for poor behavior.
I really do think "checking" a girl's poor behavior is not written about ENOUGH in seduction. Again, my goal is not to screen for girls that like me, or naturally want to get with me - but to LEAD them. the "duc" part in seduce is Latin from ducere - to lead.

This is not about being a tyrant, but you need clear boundaries in your mind, and then the courage to let the chick know that she's crossing them.

• At one point I asked her what she thinks about me.

Bad move trying to be meta and pushing the girl to give you an assessment.

Her behavior towards you is what she thinks about you.

Girls that are really digging you, want to please you. (this is where guys get the idea of girls being naturally submissive).

Part of getting better at game

• Looking for her behavior that shows she wants to please you
• Giving her opportunities to show that behavior
• Expecting her to do so

• She told me I not the type of person that repels her and she wants to spend more time with me, but also because I on Tinder used word ”unofficial” and told her ”to be cool and relaxed about date" she acts friendly toward me. I didn’t like that, but just smiled and playfully told her that maybe consider me more than that.

She used your own words to box you in. Again, this is typical female behavior.

Additionally, bringing up consistency/inconsistency works well against men, and does not work against women.

And by work, I mean when she points out these things out your behavior changes in ways that she likes.
But if you point them out in her, she increases the conflict or withdraws - behavior that you do not want.

A big part of getting better at this stuff is understanding yourself, asserting yourself, but understanding women in general and your date in particular - and whether she conforms to what you know about WOMEN or defies that.

Because women love to be "Not like the other girls" when in fact, they're like every other girl. If you intimate she's carbon copy, she will reject the label in such a way that's never to YOUR advantage.

• I wanted to know clearly her opinion so I asked her more and only got vague responses. I didn’t want to validate her so I told her that I don’t have formed completely formed opinion for her, and like to know people better before I slot them in categories. Then I mentioned stories about my experience with some of my ex gf (tried to pump value and build preselection).

Yeah, not a good look.
You shouldn't want her to verbalize these things, because when she's not 100% in to you, and only 99% in to you, she'll focus on that 1%.

You need to read her actions as well as her non-verbal communication.

Talking about stuff rarely helps.

Date was approaching near the end and I tried to hug her for goodbye. She rejected hug and said she doesn’t like hugging and it is not her style. I smiled and we made ”high five” punch with closed fists.

Not feeling you, given that you hugged at the beginning.

Now I am worried, if she already friend zoned me

Friend zone is a few things
1) Guy sticks around hoping that she'll hook up
2) Girl talks to guy but doesn't hook up, so that she can get validation, services, and materials
3) Girl keeps guy in orbit, because she has a boyfriend that might mess up. She needs a soft landing on a hard dick.

You might be #1

But from her perspective, you might not be anything

and how bad is that she avoided hug?

Depends on your time horizon. In the short game, it was horrible. You basically had a lot going for you coming into the date, and failed it.
Don't beat yourself up, everyone has bad dates at the beginning, because they don't know what they're doing.

On a longer perspective, you can keep the door open via social media and her seeing more of your life, and a very focused text game - and she might warm back up to you.

Due to these doubts I am not sure if I will want to ask her out more. What little bit upsets me is female ingratitude. I understand that I am not the most attractive guy, but we had amazing connection, I used some tech to actively build arousal and improved my nonverbals as I could. Honestly failed first dates and the thing that hurts me the most in seduction especially if girl is somewhat similar to me and is clear that we can have some good relationship. Your opinion please?

My main opinion is that you had a date, and you approached it like an engineer, trying to tweak this and that and get immediate verbal feedback.

It doesn't sound like you understand pick up, yourself, women, and dating in general.

That's fine. We all start somewhere.

WIA