Girl rejected hug at the end of date. How bad is it?

[Will_V]

I can't remember. No, probably not. We started talking since we meet and that is it. I tried to use little bit arousal mixed with connection at first, i.e. we crossed the street outside pedestrian crossing, and she didn't like that so I went just for connection.

One more thing. Additional info. Also, a lot of couples in my town go to museums on dates. I didn't call her to museum for second date but asked her through deep diving about museums and she said it is boring to her. She accepted some dates offer that include activity and board games mixed with activity so I also wonder is she really interested in me (maybe also nervous or something) or uniterested but likes our connection and wants to use me as fun provider. God knows.

I'm genuinely curious as to why you like her when she never did anything on the date that indicated actual interest in you?

You let her get away with a lot more than simply being a bit testy. You let her get away with pretty much not qualifying herself whatsoever, while you carried on investing throughout. That makes you come across as someone with little or no standards, or at least far less than her.

...

It's sounding more and more like she's a bit depressed or something. She's probably become a bit isolated or something during corona, and her going on tinder is her way of getting outside for a breather.

I have known a variety of females who are depressed/isolated, some family, some distant relatives, a couple of girls I dated a few times out of curiosity. If there's one thing they have in common, it's a sort of fatalistic pride about being obstinate and difficult in their interactions with men. And they are usually flighty when it comes to physical contact.

Not that that changes anything. The truth is that if you really want to know what she can be for you, you have to start putting her to the test of measuring up to your standards.

...

This topic is interesting to me because I am texting right now a girl who responds to me but has been a bit of a challenge (and was shy/guarded during our first interaction with a few smiles here and there).

She has given me an attitude during text, first being 'polite' but a little cool, then asking me what's my 'point', etc until I basically told her that I thought she was cute and all, but if she isn't interested, that's fine. Now she's texting me a few days later trying to get me to meet (still trying to hold a dominant frame, but I am leaving her on ice for a day or two before I take back the frame with a mix of sugar and spice).

I genuinely don't care if I get her on the date or not, although she's cute she's going to have to cut it out sooner or later. But for me it's an exercise in being self-expressive, direct, and nonreactive, waiting until she comes back to my frame and then making her jump for it a little. If she eventually submits to it and opens up to me maybe we can have fun, if not it's onto the next one.

 

[Whiteheart]

I'm genuinely curious as to why you like her when she never did anything on the date that indicated actual interest in you?

You let her get away with a lot more than simply being a bit testy. You let her get away with pretty much not qualifying herself whatsoever, while you carried on investing throughout. That makes you come across as someone with little or no standards, or at least far less than her.
In fact, quite the oposite. I didn't wrote that above. She qualified herself a lot to me. Literally every screening questions I asked her she passed. Hovewer, you are right it shouldn't gives me right to think too much about her.
...

It's sounding more and more like she's a bit depressed or something. She's probably become a bit isolated or something during corona, and her going on tinder is her way of getting outside for a breather.

I have known a variety of females who are depressed/isolated, some family, some distant relatives, a couple of girls I dated a few times out of curiosity. If there's one thing they have in common, it's a sort of fatalistic pride about being obstinate and difficult in their interactions with men. And they are usually flighty when it comes to physical contact.

Yes, I agree. In fact the most women on Tinder here blame and complain to men and also give much less than require.

Not that that changes anything. The truth is that if you really want to know what she can be for you, you have to start putting her to the test of measuring up to your standards.

...

This topic is interesting to me because I am texting right now a girl who responds to me but has been a bit of a challenge (and was shy/guarded during our first interaction with a few smiles here and there).

About texting on this app. My experience is that guy shouldn't use funny lines too much. I often playfully write girls that I am not funny guy and only can lead normal conversation. From that point girl doesn't expect too much fun and if she is talkative we have normal, interesting conversation where I still use some jokes when I want. This gave me much better response and date rate then before.

She has given me an attitude during text, first being 'polite' but a little cool, then asking me what's my 'point', etc until I basically told her that I thought she was cute and all, but if she isn't interested, that's fine. Now she's texting me a few days later trying to get me to meet (still trying to hold a dominant frame, but I am leaving her on ice for a day or two before I take back the frame with a mix of sugar and spice).

I genuinely don't care if I get her on the date or not, although she's cute she's going to have to cut it out sooner or later. But for me it's an exercise in being self-expressive, direct, and nonreactive, waiting until she comes back to my frame and then making her jump for it a little. If she eventually submits to it and opens up to me maybe we can have fun, if not it's onto the next one.

 

[Will_V]

Yes, I agree. In fact the most women on Tinder here blame and complain to men and also give much less than require.

Beware of victim mentality.

About texting on this app. My experience is that guy shouldn't use funny lines too much. I often playfully write girls that I am not funny guy and only can lead normal conversation. From that point girl doesn't expect too much fun and if she is talkative we have normal, interesting conversation where I still use some jokes when I want. This gave me much better response and date rate then before.

I'm not on tinder, this is normal text. Honestly never even bothered to try tinder, I prefer the romance and ball-crushing challenge of cold approach.

 

[Whiteheart]

I'm genuinely curious as to why you like her when she never did anything on the date that indicated actual interest in you?

You let her get away with a lot more than simply being a bit testy. You let her get away with pretty much not qualifying herself whatsoever, while you carried on investing throughout. That makes you come across as someone with little or no standards, or at least far less than her.

In fact, quite the oposite. She quilified herself a lot during conversation. Every screening question I asked her, she passed. However, you are right it shouldn't gives me right to think too much about her.

...

It's sounding more and more like she's a bit depressed or something. She's probably become a bit isolated or something during corona, and her going on tinder is her way of getting outside for a breather.

I have known a variety of females who are depressed/isolated, some family, some distant relatives, a couple of girls I dated a few times out of curiosity. If there's one thing they have in common, it's a sort of fatalistic pride about being obstinate and difficult in their interactions with men. And they are usually flighty when it comes to physical contact.

Not that that changes anything. The truth is that if you really want to know what she can be for you, you have to start putting her to the test of measuring up to your standards.

...

This topic is interesting to me because I am texting right now a girl who responds to me but has been a bit of a challenge (and was shy/guarded during our first interaction with a few smiles here and there).

She has given me an attitude during text, first being 'polite' but a little cool, then asking me what's my 'point', etc until I basically told her that I thought she was cute and all, but if she isn't interested, that's fine. Now she's texting me a few days later trying to get me to meet (still trying to hold a dominant frame, but I am leaving her on ice for a day or two before I take back the frame with a mix of sugar and spice).

I genuinely don't care if I get her on the date or not, although she's cute she's going to have to cut it out sooner or later. But for me it's an exercise in being self-expressive, direct, and nonreactive, waiting until she comes back to my frame and then making her jump for it a little. If she eventually submits to it and opens up to me maybe we can have fun, if not it's onto the next one.

 

[Whiteheart]

Beware of victim mentality.

I'm not on tinder, this is normal text. Honestly never even bothered to try tinder, I prefer the romance and ball-crushing challenge of cold approach.

I don't know. Girls here usually are unreceptive during cold approach. I did hundreeds of cold approaches last year and just was on few dates. Started to use tinder not even a week ago and was on 2 dates. Maybe it is beginner's luck. Even after this date I went to park and approached to 3 girls.

 

[Will_V]

In fact, quite the oposite. She quilified herself a lot during conversation. Every screening question I asked her, she passed. However, you are right it shouldn't gives me right to think too much about her.

Maybe qualifying is not exactly what I meant. Answering questions with the right answer, anyone can do. The question is, did she ever feel apprehensive and think to herself "what is the right thing to say to keep this guy interested?"

I don't know. Girls here usually are unreceptive during cold approach. I did hundreeds of cold approaches last year and just was on few dates. Started to use tinder not even a week ago and was on 2 dates. Maybe it is beginner's luck. Even after this date I went to park and approached to 3 girls.

Again, you are blaming girls. Girls are basically the same everywhere. The approach is what matters, and it takes plenty of learning.

10 Dumb Myths About Women Newbie Seducers Often Believe

Men believe a lot of weird/baseless things about women that aren't broadly true. Shed these female myths aside, and be free. If you're a seduction newbie (i.e., you're new to meeting and getting together with girls), I can guarantee you you have some objectively very silly beliefs about women...

www.girlschase.com

My suggestion to you is, when you run into an obstacle, ask yourself "what could I have done better?". That's what I ask myself every time, even when it seems to go well.

 

[Whiteheart]

Line by line

-1 point




+ 3 (2) If she's willing to come out the next day, that's high interest generally speaking.



0 (2) - Setting expectations can be good for skittish girls, but if anything more romantic happens and the girl isn't ready for it, a lot of girls will anchor on "what you said".



-2 points - Walking dates (hiking dates, coffee dates, drinks only dates) means lots of talking, which is not great if you're not an over the top conversationalist. Moreover, a lake near the park might not have much to see - unlike a walk downtown among a lot of people.

What was your plan hear to get her back to your place? Or were you gonna do a short 1st date and then follow up with a more romantic/intense second date?

Total (-2)



+1. (-1)



0 points - the date did not got well if she was awkward, shy, and not open to "arousal attempts".



Not gonna give any points here, this is one of those things that's really contextual

If you're setting up a good girl/bad boy dichotomy, you need to express that.



This a philosophy pov.

Did breaking her rules create the "amazing" connection or take away from it?

How could a guy know?



-1 pt. This is not good. If you're looking for a soul mate/life partner - maybe...but even in that case, i'm of the opinion that good girls and bad girls have to be swept off their feet and into bed asap - because the good girl will see it as true love and the bad girl will see it as just another Tuesday night.

I don't know what to do with this kind of situations? There were a lot of examples when girl seemed closed off and didn't react well on anything except on building connection and conversation so I focussed on that what I can work with. However, I change everything from my vibe, fudamentals and game these days and hope I will adopt some better strategy that works for me.

Guys that want to take it slow have to be super high value to the girl in particular, as well as having a lot of girls in rotation.

Yes, you gave me good reminder for this.

Now this is culturally specific to the West. I didn't see anything about your culture/location, which would change my analysis some.



- 2 points. Thirsty and dates way in the future.

Going back to similarity - that's not necessarily attractive to a girl in the short term.
And pushing for date 2 while still on date 1 just isn't a good look.

You can do always do what you want, of course, but the sub-communication is that usually that you are willing to clear your schedule for a girl that hasn't invested much.




Things will come up between now and then, especially if she's a cute girl that's doing online dating.
Girls will agree to that stuff to release the pressure on them, so they can fadeaway later.

This looking more and more like a traditional AFC date, rather than an interaction geared around YOU having choice.

That's not the point of PUA, imo.




Did you put her back in her place?
If you aren't asserting leadership, taking leadership, a girl will take it.

I think this is the thing that mostly affected date course. She took the lead and I just let her. Didn't expect that she will use it for compliating things and avoiding hugs. I will never again let girl to decide much. Looks like that in girls mind someone has to be submisive, men or women. Well...

A lot of guys think that girls are naturally submissive.

They are not. Like unruly children, you have to offer unpredictable positive rewards but very predictable correction for poor behavior.
I really do think "checking" a girl's poor behavior is not written about ENOUGH in seduction. Again, my goal is not to screen for girls that like me, or naturally want to get with me - but to LEAD them. the "duc" part in seduce is Latin from ducere - to lead.

This is not about being a tyrant, but you need clear boundaries in your mind, and then the courage to let the chick know that she's crossing them.

Bad move trying to be meta and pushing the girl to give you an assessment.

I read this thing in some old school literature. Like when you ask girl about you then you know her level of interest. Looks like it is bad advice. I won't use it anymore.

Her behavior towards you is what she thinks about you.

Girls that are really digging you, want to please you. (this is where guys get the idea of girls being naturally submissive).

Part of getting better at game

• Looking for her behavior that shows she wants to please you
• Giving her opportunities to show that behavior
• Expecting her to do so

She used your own words to box you in. Again, this is typical female behavior.

Additionally, bringing up consistency/inconsistency works well against men, and does not work against women.

And by work, I mean when she points out these things out your behavior changes in ways that she likes.
But if you point them out in her, she increases the conflict or withdraws - behavior that you do not want.

A big part of getting better at this stuff is understanding yourself, asserting yourself, but understanding women in general and your date in particular - and whether she conforms to what you know about WOMEN or defies that.

Because women love to be "Not like the other girls" when in fact, they're like every other girl. If you intimate she's carbon copy, she will reject the label in such a way that's never to YOUR advantage.

This is so true. Literally every women thinks she is different from the others.

Yeah, not a good look.
You shouldn't want her to verbalize these things, because when she's not 100% in to you, and only 99% in to you, she'll focus on that 1%.

You need to read her actions as well as her non-verbal communication.

Talking about stuff rarely helps.



Not feeling you, given that you hugged at the beginning.



Friend zone is a few things
1) Guy sticks around hoping that she'll hook up
2) Girl talks to guy but doesn't hook up, so that she can get validation, services, and materials
3) Girl keeps guy in orbit, because she has a boyfriend that might mess up. She needs a soft landing on a hard dick.

You might be #1

But from her perspective, you might not be anything


Depends on your time horizon. In the short game, it was horrible. You basically had a lot going for you coming into the date, and failed it.
Don't beat yourself up, everyone has bad dates at the beginning, because they don't know what they're doing.

On a longer perspective, you can keep the door open via social media and her seeing more of your life, and a very focused text game - and she might warm back up to you.



My main opinion is that you had a date, and you approached it like an engineer, trying to tweak this and that and get immediate verbal feedback.

Hahah, well you guessed it. I am really an engineer and used my way of thinking for this.

It doesn't sound like you understand pick up, yourself, women, and dating in general.

I have read thousands pages of seduction literature and aproached nearly as so women. Still this is the hardest thing for me in life. First, women don't find me attractive and always find a way to more complicate already complicated relationship.

That's fine. We all start somewhere.

WIA

 

[Whiteheart]

Maybe qualifying is not exactly what I meant. Answering questions with the right answer, anyone can do. The question is, did she ever feel apprehensive and think to herself "what is the right thing to say to keep this guy interested?"



Again, you are blaming girls. Girls are basically the same everywhere. The approach is what matters, and it takes plenty of learning.

10 Dumb Myths About Women Newbie Seducers Often Believe

Men believe a lot of weird/baseless things about women that aren't broadly true. Shed these female myths aside, and be free. If you're a seduction newbie (i.e., you're new to meeting and getting together with girls), I can guarantee you you have some objectively very silly beliefs about women...

www.girlschase.com

My suggestion to you is, when you run into an obstacle, ask yourself "what could I have done better?". That's what I ask myself every time, even when it seems to go well.

Women nature generally is the same. Although some good or bad characteristics of that nature are different according to area. The same guy with the same game can have different results according to place where he goes. However, this is not my excuse. I should much more work on my success with women and that is it.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

Hahah, well you guessed it. I am really an engineer and used my way of thinking for this.

I'm curious as to what you expected to happen and what your goals were.

WIA

 

[Whiteheart]

I'm curious as to what you expected to happen and what your goals were.

WIA

I planned date relatively near my home. My plans were to meet girl, game her and see her buying temperature. Because my fundamentals are how they are and vibe is how it is, I decided not to focus on them but express them and if she likes them or not. My game plan was to talk to her and see if she likes more connection or arousal. Because she didn’t want to do some bold actions with me, I focused only to talking (and letting her to ask me questions and lead some parts of date which happened that isn’t good because she stole my dominant frame).

Depending on her interest my plans were to not ask her out again, ask her out again or take her home. Conversation went really well so I proposed her some options for seeing her again and she accepted all (I don’t know if I am really going to text her again). After that, her actions weren’t good (she led the date and she could stay longer, the date lasted 1 hour and not to mention avoiding hug). This sounds like typical ”I want to friend zone guy by making him doing things on my term” behavior. You know the rest.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

I planned date relatively near my home. My plans were to meet girl, game her and see her buying temperature. Because my fundamentals are how they are and vibe is how it is, I decided not to focus on them but express them and if she likes them or not. My game plan was to talk to her and see if she likes more connection or arousal. Because she didn’t want to do some bold actions with me, I focused only to talking (and letting her to ask me questions and lead some parts of date which happened that isn’t good because she stole my dominant frame).

Depending on her interest my plans were to not ask her out again, ask her out again or take her home. Conversation went really well so I proposed her some options for seeing her again and she accepted all (I don’t know if I am really going to text her again). After that, her actions weren’t good (she led the date and she could stay longer, the date lasted 1 hour and not to mention avoiding hug). This sounds like typical ”I want to friend zone guy by making him doing things on my term” behavior. You know the rest.

Has the "Walk around the Lake" date worked for you in the past?

Cause I know exactly how I would do that date, but I can't tell if you had a real seductive plan here.

To get back to weird culture of Tinder dates.

She likes the way you look. She probably builds an idea of who you are based on your images and texts.

But when she's in your physical presence, smells you, hears your voice, sees your reactions - all the good stuff you built up either gets amplified or disappears.

To some extent this happens offline too. Club Archie at night has to become Work Archie in the morning. Club chica is awesome at night, but when the smoke clears turns out she's a Raging B respectable young lady or a stage 5 clinger.

But overall your plan really depends on you saying the right stuff to draw out her sex tigress.

That's a tall order for 1) Tinder date 2) essentially a hike, 3) a chick that you toned it down with from the very beginning.

It's not impossible, but I'm not really seeing enough of understanding on your part to make that thing a reality.

WIA

 

[Whiteheart]

Has the "Walk around the Lake" date worked for you in the past?

Cause I know exactly how I would do that date, but I can't tell if you had a real seductive plan here.

To get back to weird culture of Tinder dates.

She likes the way you look. She probably builds an idea of who you are based on your images and texts.

But when she's in your physical presence, smells you, hears your voice, sees your reactions - all the good stuff you built up either gets amplified or disappears.

To some extent this happens offline too. Club Archie at night has to become Work Archie in the morning. Club chica is awesome at night, but when the smoke clears turns out she's a Raging B respectable young lady or a stage 5 clinger.

But overall your plan really depends on you saying the right stuff to draw out her sex tigress.

That's a tall order for 1) Tinder date 2) essentially a hike, 3) a chick that you toned it down with from the very beginning.

It's not impossible, but I'm not really seeing enough of understanding on your part to make that thing a reality.

WIA

Yes (not walk around lake but walk and talk with the same game focused primarily on showing similarity), it worked when I was on college. I romanced three girls on that way. They were all the same type like girl from tinder (shy, genuine and interested in intellectual topics). They gave me huge escalation windows (one asked all the time if I have gf, second tried to kiss me and third invited me on another date). I didn’t sleep with them, they wanted me as bf and I didn’t like them, but I tested strategy and it worked on some way. If I continued using this strategy and mixed it with bold moves it could give me relationship/sex.

However after college I used the same strategy above for two more girls of this type and it didn’t work. One girl (two and half years ago) liked our interaction and stick around me, even auto-invested but didn’t give me huge escalation windows and didn’t let me escalate. Later I found out that she was engaged so this could be reason (I didn't know this while gaming her ). Second is tinder girl and you know what happened here. I hoped it will work on these girls also, at least to make them somewhat interested and make other tech like building arousal easier but it didn’t.

So on 5 girls from this type of girls it worked on 3 girls. There are numerous reasons why sometimes worked and sometimes didn’t.

Anyway, I think I have understood your advice how to properly focus on game/process. One thing that slows me down at taking lead is that girls generally from the beginning are suspicious, closed off and too early slot me into friend zone making my efforts irrelevant.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

Yes (not walk around lake but walk and talk with the same game focused primarily on showing similarity), it worked when I was on college. I romanced three girls on that way. They were all the same type like girl from tinder (shy, genuine and interested in intellectual topics). They gave me huge escalation windows (one asked all the time if I have gf, second tried to kiss me and third invited me on another date). I didn’t sleep with them, they wanted me as bf and I didn’t like them, but I tested strategy and it worked on some way. If I continued using this strategy and mixed it with bold moves it could give me relationship/sex.

However after college I used the same strategy above for two more girls of this type and it didn’t work. One girl (two and half years ago) liked our interaction and stick around me, even auto-invested but didn’t give me huge escalation windows and didn’t let me escalate. Later I found out that she was engaged so this could be reason (I didn't know this while gaming her ). Second is tinder girl and you know what happened here. I hoped it will work on these girls also, at least to make them somewhat interested and make other tech like building arousal easier but it didn’t.

So on 5 girls from this type of girls it worked on 3 girls. There are numerous reasons why sometimes worked and sometimes didn’t.

Anyway, I think I have understood your advice how to properly focus on game/process. One thing that slows me down at taking lead is that girls generally from the beginning are suspicious, closed off and too early slot me into friend zone making my efforts irrelevant.

That's a small sample set, but I can see your vision.

I don't know if you have understood my advice, cause I'm not exactly sure what it was, lol.

Escalation Windows might be one of your sticking points. Obviously there are better times than others, but if you're depending on seeing signs in the girl, some may be too subtle for you to notice - moreover, even in these times you may have to take the leap of faith.

Traditionally guys use escalation ladders when there are no windows.

Verbal, Logistical, Physical, and Emotional.

Most rookies focus on the verbal (flirting), but logistical stuff - moving her to a place with some privacy, physical (inadvertent touches to more romantic touches) and emotional (somewhat verbal, but more akin to the deep dive/cold read angle) can also put her in the mental space to want to get physical. Both because she's aroused but more importantly she trusts you.

WIA

 

[Chase]

@Blackheart,

There is one Chase's article about using hugs where he say that high value man should use hugs for raising attainability while the other men should avoid it. Also, drawback of hugs are that due to high attainability can lead to friend zone.

Correct.

Since she rejected my hug this could mean that she doesn't see me as high value man so there is no need for hugging and could also mean that she feels too much tension or is just nervous (suspicious about Tinder date and I did something that increased that) so doesn't want to be touchy.

Also correct.

There are basically two things it could be:

1. She doesn't view you as higher value, and it feels weird/awkward to hug ("Why's this lower value guy want to hug me? Is he just trying to touch my tits?")
   
   
2. Or, you're just way too low attainability, and hugging feels more like a dismissive thing than anything else ("Is he hugging me because he feels bad for me? Ugh, no thanks")

"Oh I don't like hugs" is one of those things that can be partly true but is mostly used for cover. e.g., she may not be a hugger, but she is not going to say no to a guy she's super into. (meanwhile, there are girls who are total huggers who will hug you pretty much whatever the reason, so, you know)

If Chase has time I would appreciate his judgment about this. One more things about hugs. A lot of time I got hug from girls and milfs that we not interested in me.

Right. Those are the hugger types.

If a girl is comfortable with hugs, and isn't interested in the guy, a hug can be a sort of nice way to say goodbye to him.

Like, a permanent goodbye. "Hey, it was so nice meeting you! Goodbye forever now! *HUG!*"

So maybe this one that rejected hug isn't such a bad thing. Anyway, hug is just a symptom. And her nervousness is one side of coin. I probably should do other things better as @Will_V and I talked.

I will tell you, me, personally, pretty much the only times I hug girls outside the bedroom:

1. If I went too far with my kidding around and bruised her ego. "Oops, that was a bit much. I didn't mean it. Come here, you're adorable. *HUG*"
   
   
2. Or if I do not want to see her again: "It was a pleasure meeting you! What a nice conversation we had. Farewell forever now! *HUG!*"

Otherwise, there will be plenty of hugging later... when we are in bed.

But I'm also not a big hugger. If you're really big on wanting to hug girls, there's probably a way to develop that and get good at using it well.

Just keep hugging them tons and you'll figure out where/when it's best to work it in.

I would start with hugging times other than the start and end of the date if you're going that route though. Start and end is a little... cliché?

I'd skip, personally. Work it in elsewhere if it's something you want to learn/use.

The only guys I've seen do well with the start/end hugs are the larger-than-life personality types. You know those guys who come in and it's, "TINA! Oh man, you found the spot! I'm so thrilled you made it! *HUG* Oh man, come over here, take a look at this thing, I've been dying to show it to you..." etc. Those guys can pull off start/end hugs and it's totally congruent.

Gotta make it fit the rest of your presentation if you'll use it.

Chase