That's what I'll do then- literally nothing else bothers me
Girlfriend checking out best friend. Cause for concern / how to handle?
- Thread starter Fatjoe
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This is uncalled for. Really uncalibrated and bad attitude... come on dude
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We respectfully disagree. This shit is weird and i'm not sure the OP was even in good faith.
i'm out
(Eg, dudes not worried about buddy cheating, not worried about girl cheating, so i guess the thread is about feelings only, what the fuck is even being talked about and it just drifts into inane and vague conversation again. a pattern im seeing on these boards)
i'm out
(Eg, dudes not worried about buddy cheating, not worried about girl cheating, so i guess the thread is about feelings only, what the fuck is even being talked about and it just drifts into inane and vague conversation again. a pattern im seeing on these boards)
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The op is getting laid with a hot girl you are not, see what i did right there with you.... i am not whitenighting but is a bad attitude to follow, do you like me calling you out about not getting laid, no right? There is no need, you have no right to judge when a thread is dumb or not, is just trolling does not acomplish anything...anyways hope your calibration and attitude improves...
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No, that's actually a really great point. The fuck am i even doing here?
Good luck with it gents.
Good luck with it gents.
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This is heavily (sub)culturally dependent. As in, in typical secular urban white America (which seems to be the default assumption around here), unlikely.
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The problem here is lack of frame control and leadership, which is almost always the cause of relationship failure.
You must evaluate the situation, determine what variables you control, and strategize a path forward that has the greatest chance of long term success.
Instead, you emotionally reacted in a knee-jerk way, probably lowered her respect for you substantially, and still haven't solved anything.
The first thing to realize is that you cannot control attraction. If your girl feels attracted to some other guy, there's nothing you (or even she, for the most part) can do about that by itself.
That means your frame with her cannot be 'don't be attracted to other guys' because she won't know what to do about that even if she wanted to. Instead, it must be a question of things she can control - not flirting openly, showing public investment and attention toward you, etc.
"I just don't like feeling like this" is an appeal to her to manage your emotions, which is a weak and subordinate frame. "Never openly disrespect me" is fine in principle, but did you establish what is and isn't disrespect? Does she know exactly where the line is that is not the be crossed?
You must establish with her first a clear path forward to what you want her to do that does not involve pretending that she isn't ever attracted to other guys (which is not feasible) but where she knows what exactly you find disrespectful so she can not do those things.
But in my opinion this is still not enough - a man should never go into a negotation with a woman needily. Instead, you should prize your own attention and validation - again, establish your frame clearly, for example: 1) I only stay in relationships where I respect my girl 2) I don't respect a girl who openly flirts with other guys 3) do you want to keep my respect or do you want it to fade out? It's up to you. 4) I don't like drama and having to bring these things up, I only bring them up when things are already bad (i.e. don't test me you'll probably go too far and blow it before I get around to talking about it). Do it in a very calm, firm but non-emotional way.
You must make her feel like she's on probation pending a performance evaluation, and that you are less invested in the outcome than she is. Right now, it's the opposite.
Finally, after establishing the frame, think carefully over the relationship and what you could be doing to keep her spontaneously invested. Is the sex great? Is there a great emotional connection? Is she compliant and showing attention to you regularly? Are you regularly doing exciting things together? Is there anything that's making her unhappy that you aren't dealing with?
You must evaluate the situation, determine what variables you control, and strategize a path forward that has the greatest chance of long term success.
Instead, you emotionally reacted in a knee-jerk way, probably lowered her respect for you substantially, and still haven't solved anything.
The first thing to realize is that you cannot control attraction. If your girl feels attracted to some other guy, there's nothing you (or even she, for the most part) can do about that by itself.
That means your frame with her cannot be 'don't be attracted to other guys' because she won't know what to do about that even if she wanted to. Instead, it must be a question of things she can control - not flirting openly, showing public investment and attention toward you, etc.
"I just don't like feeling like this" is an appeal to her to manage your emotions, which is a weak and subordinate frame. "Never openly disrespect me" is fine in principle, but did you establish what is and isn't disrespect? Does she know exactly where the line is that is not the be crossed?
You must establish with her first a clear path forward to what you want her to do that does not involve pretending that she isn't ever attracted to other guys (which is not feasible) but where she knows what exactly you find disrespectful so she can not do those things.
But in my opinion this is still not enough - a man should never go into a negotation with a woman needily. Instead, you should prize your own attention and validation - again, establish your frame clearly, for example: 1) I only stay in relationships where I respect my girl 2) I don't respect a girl who openly flirts with other guys 3) do you want to keep my respect or do you want it to fade out? It's up to you. 4) I don't like drama and having to bring these things up, I only bring them up when things are already bad (i.e. don't test me you'll probably go too far and blow it before I get around to talking about it). Do it in a very calm, firm but non-emotional way.
You must make her feel like she's on probation pending a performance evaluation, and that you are less invested in the outcome than she is. Right now, it's the opposite.
Finally, after establishing the frame, think carefully over the relationship and what you could be doing to keep her spontaneously invested. Is the sex great? Is there a great emotional connection? Is she compliant and showing attention to you regularly? Are you regularly doing exciting things together? Is there anything that's making her unhappy that you aren't dealing with?
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Sometimes you will get girlfriends who will flirt with a friend of yours like this. If she likes you, odds are she will like your friends as well... birds of a feather flocking together, and such.
Simply not bringing her around your friends often is one solution to it. I think that's a fine solution if she can't behave herself.
The ideal solution though if you want to get her to knock it off without making yourself look jealous or weak is having her bring some of her friends out when you bring yours, and if she starts flirting with your buddy, you start hitting on her friend. When she confronts you on it later (she will) the conversation goes like this:
After that you get a period of introspection, after which you will notice that a.) suddenly she is on her best behavior around Joe, and b.) you and Mina will almost never end up in the same place ever again, lol.
IMO this works a whole lot better than direct confrontation, because if you go and start talking to her it makes you sound needy and jealous.
If on the other hand your response to her flirting is "(shrug) Guess I'll go flirt too", she will definitely notice that and definitely get jealous.
Most girls are not fully consciously aware of what they are doing. So, again, when you just point it out, it makes you look petty for noticing something she was barely paying attention to. However, when she is the one to bring it up, because you triggered jealousy in her by hitting on one of her friends, then you get to do the whole "Whatdya mean? I'm just following your lead. I thought it was okay since you were doing it!" bit.
Then every time she tries to make it about the girl you were flirting with, you bring it back to how she was flirting with that guy first, so you figured it was fine.
At which point, the introspection starts... and then she concludes, "Ohhh. If I don't want him hitting on my friends, I'd better not flirt with his."
(there is also the secondary realization that, "Oh gee, I am really not behaving like a monogamous girlfriend around him. He is acting like I was his FWB or something there and saying it was just a response to my behavior. Yikes, I am making myself look like a bit of a skank... I didn't even realize, but he and other people definitely did. Crap")
Note that this will not work with female players... who will not care if you are hitting on their friends, and will assume you aren't bothered by them hitting on yours... nor with girls who are super pissed off at you or ready to ditch the relationship, who know they can always escalate faster with men than you can with women, so if both parties are going no-holds barred it's a game you cannot win.
Within the confines of a normal, otherwise healthy relationship, where a girl is probably not fully conscious of what she is doing, this is the best strategy for resolving it IMO.
Doesn't make you look weak or petty like a confrontation does; gets her to be the one feeling jealous and doing the chasing; and still causes her to reflect on her behavior, totally on her own, without you even asking her to, due to the magic of operant conditioning.
Chase
Simply not bringing her around your friends often is one solution to it. I think that's a fine solution if she can't behave herself.
The ideal solution though if you want to get her to knock it off without making yourself look jealous or weak is having her bring some of her friends out when you bring yours, and if she starts flirting with your buddy, you start hitting on her friend. When she confronts you on it later (she will) the conversation goes like this:
HER: It seemed like you were getting pretty close with Mina.
YOU: We were just talking. She's a nice girl.
HER: I didn't see you talk that way with anyone else there.
YOU: What do you mean? I mean, normally I wouldn't, but I've seen the way you flirt with Joe, so I figured you were okay with it.
HER: Huh? Joe and me? We're just talking! There's nothing there! I don't even like him!
YOU: I know, exactly! That's just like me and Mina! Did I do anything with Mina you did not do with Joe? Of course not!
HER: Yes, but with Joe you know nothing will happen there. With you and Mina...
YOU: Don't be silly. I only talked to Mina to give you and Joe some space. You seemed pretty excited to be talking to him and I was like, "Well, I'd better go do something else!"
HER: Mmm... well... hmm... I don't know...
After that you get a period of introspection, after which you will notice that a.) suddenly she is on her best behavior around Joe, and b.) you and Mina will almost never end up in the same place ever again, lol.
IMO this works a whole lot better than direct confrontation, because if you go and start talking to her it makes you sound needy and jealous.
If on the other hand your response to her flirting is "(shrug) Guess I'll go flirt too", she will definitely notice that and definitely get jealous.
Most girls are not fully consciously aware of what they are doing. So, again, when you just point it out, it makes you look petty for noticing something she was barely paying attention to. However, when she is the one to bring it up, because you triggered jealousy in her by hitting on one of her friends, then you get to do the whole "Whatdya mean? I'm just following your lead. I thought it was okay since you were doing it!" bit.
Then every time she tries to make it about the girl you were flirting with, you bring it back to how she was flirting with that guy first, so you figured it was fine.
At which point, the introspection starts... and then she concludes, "Ohhh. If I don't want him hitting on my friends, I'd better not flirt with his."
(there is also the secondary realization that, "Oh gee, I am really not behaving like a monogamous girlfriend around him. He is acting like I was his FWB or something there and saying it was just a response to my behavior. Yikes, I am making myself look like a bit of a skank... I didn't even realize, but he and other people definitely did. Crap")
Note that this will not work with female players... who will not care if you are hitting on their friends, and will assume you aren't bothered by them hitting on yours... nor with girls who are super pissed off at you or ready to ditch the relationship, who know they can always escalate faster with men than you can with women, so if both parties are going no-holds barred it's a game you cannot win.
Within the confines of a normal, otherwise healthy relationship, where a girl is probably not fully conscious of what she is doing, this is the best strategy for resolving it IMO.
Doesn't make you look weak or petty like a confrontation does; gets her to be the one feeling jealous and doing the chasing; and still causes her to reflect on her behavior, totally on her own, without you even asking her to, due to the magic of operant conditioning.
Chase
@Will_V and especially you @Chase Thanks so much for your insightful answers. My girlfriend doesn't really have many friends anymore so that may be hard to execute, however, I think i can apply that strategy instead with other girls in the group of my friends if something like this happens again.
On a side note, i've already messed up by directly confronting and I know for sure I sounded petty or weak. She was crying alot, and I said im not going to bring her around my friends anymore since she cant behave herself.
She's just happy we didn't break up, but I know that it definitely killed some of the intimacy in the relationship, and brought in some fear which is what I didn't want.
She's overall a really great girl, and she was just being a girl like some have said, and I overreacted for sure. My emotions got the best of me in the moment.
Any advice on the best course of action to course correct and bring back that respect?
On a side note, i've already messed up by directly confronting and I know for sure I sounded petty or weak. She was crying alot, and I said im not going to bring her around my friends anymore since she cant behave herself.
She's just happy we didn't break up, but I know that it definitely killed some of the intimacy in the relationship, and brought in some fear which is what I didn't want.
She's overall a really great girl, and she was just being a girl like some have said, and I overreacted for sure. My emotions got the best of me in the moment.
Any advice on the best course of action to course correct and bring back that respect?
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Dude, here is the thing, now your gf is going to be calculated and not trust you fully, will not open up fully and be free to tell you things that she may perceive you don't like.... Get it.... if she is fantasizing about being with another girl or getting fucked by 2 strangers with mask, she will keep that to herself, if she thinks bratt pitt is super hot, she will keep to herself, if she is in a gathering and she feel like being flirty she will suppress that cause you are there...... In other words you will get a calculated, no super real version of your girlfriend..... This is what i would do, again i would go back to learning the Madonna whore complex, I would actually bring back the incident, and do some version of strategic position of weakness, and i will encourage her to be open with you, just explain to her that men like respect and women like security, and that you are not judgmental but you felt kind of disrespected, but you don't judge blah blah, little by little let her be in situations were she can talk or flirt or whatever with other dudes (she won't cheat specially if you are there) and don't bluff and act none judgmental, none jealous, you need to get her again were she is herself and free and can open up to you....... Dude review my post please.... Again this is my take
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Not really, just using statistics.
The odds are overwhelmingly against you if you think long-term mono with younger girls.
She will either dump you, or cheat on you down the road.
Hotter she is, faster she will do either one of those.
That was my point.
Edit: By the way, this is not by any means a knock on younger chicks.
Understanding their nature helps you to connect better with them, and develop a sense of empathy without being pushed over by their natural behavior and strong desire for freedom. Which in turn will make them want to be more with you, and less with judgemental dudes (which are 99.9% of the guys out there).
You asked for a course of correction.
Just stop caring about her behavior.
If she is not blatantly disrespecting you, let it go.
And learn how to flirt with other chicks.
In fact, make it a priority.
If you are doing it right, she is the one that's come to you for relationship talks.
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@Fatjoe,
Your girl sounds super young/innocent overall. 'Innocent' as in 'doesn't know much about the world and hasn't been taught to hide things other people will disapprove of'.
Like @Skills says, this is a situation where she has been incentivized by you to hide this sort of thing from you (and likely all future boyfriends as well) in the future, out of fear of a negative reaction. That is not the kind of conditioning you want.
You won't be able to completely undo that hesitancy to be open with you -- once a scar is there, it's there. However, you can lessen the scarring some by walking it back and communicating you overreacted and that what she was doing was a little blatant but that it's a natural instinct to flirt, feel attraction for other people, etc.
(just because it's natural doesn't mean you have to incentivize it... I would still respond to blatant flirting by going off and flirting with some chick else, for instance. Or simply not bringing her around guys she flirts with if there aren't girls around for you to flirt with... never good to be in those situations where the woman has plenty of choice but you have little choice and the woman isn't behaving. Just stay/get out of such scenarios)
I would probably just wait for a quiet, intimate moment, and say hey, btw, I talked to a friend of mine who's really experienced with dating and he said everybody gets attracted to other people and everybody flirts. He said I overreacted earlier, so... sorry about that. I guess these are just natural things we learn about ourselves as we grow and have relationships and all this crazy shit.
Chase
Your girl sounds super young/innocent overall. 'Innocent' as in 'doesn't know much about the world and hasn't been taught to hide things other people will disapprove of'.
Like @Skills says, this is a situation where she has been incentivized by you to hide this sort of thing from you (and likely all future boyfriends as well) in the future, out of fear of a negative reaction. That is not the kind of conditioning you want.
You won't be able to completely undo that hesitancy to be open with you -- once a scar is there, it's there. However, you can lessen the scarring some by walking it back and communicating you overreacted and that what she was doing was a little blatant but that it's a natural instinct to flirt, feel attraction for other people, etc.
(just because it's natural doesn't mean you have to incentivize it... I would still respond to blatant flirting by going off and flirting with some chick else, for instance. Or simply not bringing her around guys she flirts with if there aren't girls around for you to flirt with... never good to be in those situations where the woman has plenty of choice but you have little choice and the woman isn't behaving. Just stay/get out of such scenarios)
I would probably just wait for a quiet, intimate moment, and say hey, btw, I talked to a friend of mine who's really experienced with dating and he said everybody gets attracted to other people and everybody flirts. He said I overreacted earlier, so... sorry about that. I guess these are just natural things we learn about ourselves as we grow and have relationships and all this crazy shit.
Chase
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Just to add some nuance, there is also a not-small minority of younger girls who just do long serial monogamy, then marriage. A lot of very beautiful girls are in this group, and overall, as beauty goes up, hooking up goes down and serial monogamy / commitment rises. More on that here:
Hotter Women are Subtler (and Hook Up Less)
As a woman’s beauty increases, so too does her subtlety… while her number of sex partners falls. Do you recognize the signs beautiful women give you? Recently I found myself in an unfamiliar part of a familiar town. Kind of on the outskirts. And something stuck out at me: the women here were, on...
www.girlschase.com
You won't end up with these girls often as a cold approach seducer, simply because their windows of availability are so narrow compared to the other types you'll meet. These are the girls you're getting "I have a boyfriend" most of the time with when you approach because... most of the time they actually do. Usually the guys they date are the ones biding their time in social circle who are all over them the moment they finally come back on the market (after a 2-, 3-, or 4-year-long relationship).
These types tend to mostly be married by their mid-20s. They play it safe and marry the second or third guy they dated... sometimes the first. Often with only one or no hookups/ONSes between their serious relationships. If you manage to meet this type in her late 20s still unmarried, you can recognize them because they have generally only recently started hooking up more freely and seem to have much worse instincts about men than the girls who have been hooking up a lot longer. They're often surprisingly clueless given their age.
Anyway, I attended a top 50 university worldwide... lots of smart, beautiful, sweet girls... I was kind of surprised at the time how many of them were serial monogamists, and post-college how many of them married the college boyfriend they were with the entire time I knew them.
Just to say, they're out there, and there's a lot of them... especially if you met them some way other than cold approach.
So... it's not always a given she's going to be running around, swinging to other monkey branches, jumping on cocks by the fistful.
Assuming you run things right with her and don't give her a reason to, of course.
I would also add the guy plays a big role here too: if she's a great girl with a great guy at age 23 or 24, and she's otherwise thrilled with him, but the guy doesn't want to commit, when she hits that 2-year drop she's going to be gone even if she would've been happy to have his babies because he just didn't want to move it forward. Even if he turns around and starts panicking at that point, the guy not wanting it on his own is enough of a red flag to most chicks that he won't be able to save it. A lot of the time youthful relationships fail IME it's because the guy wasn't ready to take the plunge, not the girl.
Chase