Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clicking

[ElderPrice]

After another failed date, I think I have identified my biggest problem: I just can't flirt/frame/be sexy to save my life. I'm just referring to verbally here. This subject just isn't clicking with my brain and I can't seem to make progress.

I suspect it has to do with long, ingrained habits of being 'nice,' and 'polite' and I'm really struggling to break these habits particularly DURING a live date.

I figure before arranging dates, I can't be screwing up too royally. After all, when I cold approach I'm getting warm receptions, phone numbers, and ultimately dates. But in the year or two that I've started my journey with women, zero of my dates ended up in bed. Some lead to a second date, most do not. Zero third dates.

As I've been trying to figure out where I'm failing, I'm pretty sure I've implemented all the other dating advice to the best of my abilities:
- They are inexpensive and I don't pay the full bill
- They are logistically a good location
- There's plenty of deep diving and good eye contact
- I incorporate appropriate touch
- I keep control, meaning I set the time, place, and call the shots
- I go for the close
- Texting is used only to arrange dates
- My appearance is good, meaning well-fitting clothes, good colors, styled hair, sexy facial hair

What doesn't happen on my dates, something that I've seen mentioned here and there, is the idea of "building attraction." Girls just don't get aroused around me, at least it doesn't build (and of course eventually fizzles). After going back and re-reading Chase's articles as well as finding new ones I hadn't read before, and after analyzing my dates, the only answer I can come to is that I'm totally missing flirting/framing/being verbally sexy. Imagine a textbook date but zero flirting and sexual framing. That's basically what my dates look like.

Knowing this, I've been trying to learn flirting/framing/being sexy but it's just not clicking. It's the one area of my game where I'm still in the super-noob mode of "uhhh I don't know what to say" and that's even after reading and re-reading GC articles on the subject. I've read his articles. I understand the mindset he's describing. I understand the logic. But when it comes to live dates, I just haven't been able to do it. Not in a lack of effort kind of way, but in a "she just gave me an opportunity to flirt, but I'm drawing a blank" kind of way.

On my last date, I spent 2-3 hours before the date reading into the subject trying to prepare myself, but it just wasn't clicking. I couldn't really visualize how I would flirt or frame. I had no idea what I was supposed to say, when to say it, and how often to say it, DESPITE reading and re-reading Chase's examples. Then during the date, I was being as alert as possible, looking for every opportunity to flirt or frame, but I couldn't come up with anything. The 'nice' and 'polite' habits were kicking in which made this even more challenging.

So to summarize:
I'm pretty sure what's killing me is that not only am I bad at flirting/framing/being verbally sexy, but reading about it doesn't seem to be helping. I just can't wrap my head around it, make progress, and enact it on dates.

So the question is:
Does anyone have any tips or cues for a beginner trying to break out of 'polite' habits and trying to verbally flirt/frame/be sexy, particularly when he's not really understanding these things from reading about it?

Thanks guys! You guys rock!

 

[Tony D]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

Sure. There is a simple solution:

Learn physical escalation.

Are you touching her during the date? When I have a date I sit close enough for our knees to touch. I play with her jewellery, touch her hands, her neck, her hair.

The concept you need to learn verbally is called push-pull. I suggest reading "Double Your Dating" by David Deangelo.

Also, you sound like a newbie. Most of us experienced guys took years to get good at this stuff. Come back after about three dozen dates.

 

[ElderPrice]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

Sure. There is a simple solution:

Learn physical escalation.

Are you touching her during the date? When I have a date I sit close enough for our knees to touch. I play with her jewellery, touch her hands, her neck, her hair.

The concept you need to learn verbally is called push-pull. I suggest reading "Double Your Dating" by David Deangelo.

Also, you sound like a newbie. Most of us experienced guys took years to get good at this stuff. Come back after about three dozen dates.

Thank you, Tony! I'll check out that book.

To answer your question, yes I do touch during the date. Arms, shoulders, knees touching, jewelry, hands, hair.

 

[ElderPrice]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

Hmmm also Tony, you probably won't believe me, but I just read your 2013 article about push-pull, and I'm pretty sure what you described is one of my strongest conversation/flirting skills. I rarely make the teasing sexual, but my natural personality is that type of teasing banter you provided examples of.

 

[Michal]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

As you mentioned, the habits to be nice and polite are still there. And getting rid of bad habits and forming new ones takes time. If you want to improve your sense of humor for example, you can study, analyze material of others, but then you need to practice so that you can be quickl think on your feet. And it takes time. I actually have the same problem but you need to trust the process, go on dates and soon enough you will make that sexual innuendo out of the blue and she will suddenly give you those "fuck me" eyes. And then, it will take you next 4 dates to make a comment like that again because it was just a lucky click in your mind. But it will happen again and you will turn some girl on accidently. It just takes time to reform your habits.

Chase has an article that I read recently about this, how he has some background mindset about making things sexual / or turn a conversation sexual. I do not remember all of them, but one thing was "something inserting into something else". I had a news letter from David Tian PhD, Chase's good friend and he mentioned how you can incorporate words with sexual subtext into things you say. Like if a girl drops something, saying "bend over and pick it up". Words like come, lick, swallow, hard and many more. Girl register those. But that is additional theory. What I would recommend is focus on one thing, like flirting. Or framing. Or sexual conversation. Dont focus on all because your head will explode. Focus on one thing, and go on more dates.

 

[ElderPrice]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

As you mentioned, the habits to be nice and polite are still there. And getting rid of bad habits and forming new ones takes time. If you want to improve your sense of humor for example, you can study, analyze material of others, but then you need to practice so that you can be quickl think on your feet. And it takes time. I actually have the same problem but you need to trust the process, go on dates and soon enough you will make that sexual innuendo out of the blue and she will suddenly give you those "fuck me" eyes. And then, it will take you next 4 dates to make a comment like that again because it was just a lucky click in your mind. But it will happen again and you will turn some girl on accidently. It just takes time to reform your habits.

Chase has an article that I read recently about this, how he has some background mindset about making things sexual / or turn a conversation sexual. I do not remember all of them, but one thing was "something inserting into something else". I had a news letter from David Tian PhD, Chase's good friend and he mentioned how you can incorporate words with sexual subtext into things you say. Like if a girl drops something, saying "bend over and pick it up". Words like come, lick, swallow, hard and many more. Girl register those. But that is additional theory. What I would recommend is focus on one thing, like flirting. Or framing. Or sexual conversation. Dont focus on all because your head will explode. Focus on one thing, and go on more dates.

Thank you Michal! I hadn't come across that article before. I just read it, and it's definitely a VERY helpful article. Perfect for explaining the mindset one has to be in in order to turn conversations sexual. Thank you again!

 

[Seppuku]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

ElderPrice,

Good advice from Michal. You do not need all three (flirting / framing / sexual innuendos) at the same time for it to work. I started getting results with just a combination of flirting and touching. I became better at the two others, later on in my journey.

I don't see that you have a problem of attraction. You convert a lot of approaches to numbers than to dates. For that to happen, means you already have attraction. If a girl comes to a date with you, it normally means she's attracted enough. She already likes you! So your goal is to not fuck it up. Which you are

Your main problem seems to come from your being uncomfortable with 'masculine aggression', the "nice and polite" syndrome. This is exactly the opposite of what you need. Girls get excited by a man who does not apologize for his desire as a man, and takes what he wants. She wants to feel that you are sexually taking her against her defenses (in a smooth way of course), which is the opposite of the nice and polite thing. She senses your lack of comfort with taking what you want, and that turns her off.

You mention that you touch, but can you elaborate? There must be some escalation in your touch. You start by casually "incidentally" touching her. Then you touch her deliberately. Then you become more daring, touching more sexually. That's one form of masculine aggression.

If you are trying hard to find something "sexy" to say, that won't work - you will get hung, like in "uhhh I don't know what to say". It either comes naturally in the flow of the conversation, or it doesn't. Trying to force it will just kill your vibe. You should be able to appear completely relaxed and in control of yourself.

So I suggest you just try and focus on 1. making her talk, and 2. tease her once in a while, like in gently bust her balls. In the end what I suspect is that you are not building tension. Push and pull is a great way to do that. Sometimes you say something that gently pushes her back: "is that body fat that I see here? (touching her lower belly)" is one of my common ones. And sometimes you say things that pull her: "that's nice hair! (deliberately touching her hair)". It's teasing, and it's also helping against the nice and polite syndrome.

Alright, I think you must have good things going for you, but you are missing a little something to finally make it work. I suspect it's tension. By trial and error you should be able to confirm that, then correct it.

On your next date, write a detailed field report, it will help the diagnostics and debug.

Seppuku

 

[ElderPrice]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

ElderPrice,

Good advice from Michal. You do not need all three (flirting / framing / sexual innuendos) at the same time for it to work. I started getting results with just a combination of flirting and touching. I became better at the two others, later on in my journey.

I don't see that you have a problem of attraction. You convert a lot of approaches to numbers than to dates. For that to happen, means you already have attraction. If a girl comes to a date with you, it normally means she's attracted enough. She already likes you! So your goal is to not fuck it up. Which you are

Your main problem seems to come from your being uncomfortable with 'masculine aggression', the "nice and polite" syndrome. This is exactly the opposite of what you need. Girls get excited by a man who does not apologize for his desire as a man, and takes what he wants. She wants to feel that you are sexually taking her against her defenses (in a smooth way of course), which is the opposite of the nice and polite thing. She senses your lack of comfort with taking what you want, and that turns her off.

You mention that you touch, but can you elaborate? There must be some escalation in your touch. You start by casually "incidentally" touching her. Then you touch her deliberately. Then you become more daring, touching more sexually. That's one form of masculine aggression.

If you are trying hard to find something "sexy" to say, that won't work - you will get hung, like in "uhhh I don't know what to say". It either comes naturally in the flow of the conversation, or it doesn't. Trying to force it will just kill your vibe. You should be able to appear completely relaxed and in control of yourself.

So I suggest you just try and focus on 1. making her talk, and 2. tease her once in a while, like in gently bust her balls. In the end what I suspect is that you are not building tension. Push and pull is a great way to do that. Sometimes you say something that gently pushes her back: "is that body fat that I see here? (touching her lower belly)" is one of my common ones. And sometimes you say things that pull her: "that's nice hair! (deliberately touching her hair)". It's teasing, and it's also helping against the nice and polite syndrome.

Alright, I think you must have good things going for you, but you are missing a little something to finally make it work. I suspect it's tension. By trial and error you should be able to confirm that, then correct it.

On your next date, write a detailed field report, it will help the diagnostics and debug.

Seppuku

Thank you so much for the breakdown Seppuku, I appreciate it! I do make her talk and there's plenty of teasing, so I think you might be on to something with it having to do with tension. I'll try working on that aspect and see what I can do.

To answer your question on touch, my dates can look something like: start with incidental touch, then maybe a nudge with the arm paired with a joke, then a hand on the arm like during a good laugh, then maybe touching hands to look at jewelry, touching the skin if she shows me her tattoos, touching her hair. That's basically it especially if she hasn't responded with any touching of her own. One girl I met right then and there at a bar (she may have had a lot to drink) was very responsive to my flirting and it got to a point where she basically implied she'd follow my commands so I had fun with it like 'kiss me on the cheek, now give me a big hug, now give me a big kiss' and she did them all. I then tried 3 times to get her to leave with me but she just wouldn't lol. Oh well.

 

[Seppuku]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

To answer your question on touch, my dates can look something like: start with incidental touch, then maybe a nudge with the arm paired with a joke, then a hand on the arm like during a good laugh, then maybe touching hands to look at jewelry, touching the skin if she shows me her tattoos, touching her hair. That's basically it especially if she hasn't responded with any touching of her own

That looks correct, at least for a start. How many of these girls touch you back?

Some more things you can try - among my favorites:
1. The selfie session. Get close to her, put an arm around her shoulders, and with the free hand take a selfie. She is in your arms. How comfortable is she?
2. Take her hand and lead her. When you're out of your coffee shop or dating place, or if you're about to move, extend your hand towards her, she normally will put her hand in yours. Or otherwise take it. Then lead her to wherever you're going. Her hand is in yours. How comfortable is she? How smooth does it feel? Do you feel any resistance to following your lead? Or does it flows naturally?

The cues you are getting from how comfortable she is with your physical contact are important indicators to how you should proceed. If it feels good it means you need to step up.

Regarding creating tension, are you aware of what you are sub-communicating? You need to be in control of your sub-communication. You need to make sure you're not easy to read. Keep her guessing... Does he like me? Most importantly, do not smile all the time, etc... Well, can you elaborate?

Use of humor. Humor is good, to some extent, but too much humor will kill tension. In addition, you may end up being seen as an entertainer. Don't rely on humor solely, don't be funny all the time. Can you elaborate where you stand here?

Another tip to create tension - a sort of "physical push pull". You've been touching her during the course of your conversation, and she seems to like it and / or touch you back. Now you withdraw. Lean back, and orient your body slightly away from her, and stop touching. "Does he like me? Did I say something?" Now watch her lean forward towards you and touch your forearm. Don't break physical rapport for too long, and reestablish physical presence.

Are you paying attention to her signs of arousal? Things like (i) jiggling excitedly, (ii) suddenly become hyper talkative, (iii) touching you a lot, (iv) drawing your attention to her body (hair, boobs, legs, ...), (v) "accidentally" bumping her boobs into you when you walk, etc... When you see these things, it is time to step up.

Could it be your problem is you are missing the escalation point?

OK please see the above, so I can further guide you.

Seppuku

 

[mindful]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

I like to think of it as being playful and teasing a girl combined with cold reads / assumptions.

If you sprinkle these kinds of things throughout an interaction it will help to bring out a girls attraction for you along with deep diving and being more serious. Also I find it really beneficial to do this at the beginning of your interaction with a girl so she knows you're a cool guy with a personality... and then transition into more serious convo.

I really don't do too much sexual innuendo unless its something that easily pops in my head and I don't think too much of it when I say it. If you're teasing and being playful with a girl that should be enough, at least in my experience (combined with touching).

Hope this makes sense (along with the other great comments).

 

[ElderPrice]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

To answer your question on touch, my dates can look something like: start with incidental touch, then maybe a nudge with the arm paired with a joke, then a hand on the arm like during a good laugh, then maybe touching hands to look at jewelry, touching the skin if she shows me her tattoos, touching her hair. That's basically it especially if she hasn't responded with any touching of her own

That looks correct, at least for a start. How many of these girls touch you back?

Some more things you can try - among my favorites:
1. The selfie session. Get close to her, put an arm around her shoulders, and with the free hand take a selfie. She is in your arms. How comfortable is she?
2. Take her hand and lead her. When you're out of your coffee shop or dating place, or if you're about to move, extend your hand towards her, she normally will put her hand in yours. Or otherwise take it. Then lead her to wherever you're going. Her hand is in yours. How comfortable is she? How smooth does it feel? Do you feel any resistance to following your lead? Or does it flows naturally?

The cues you are getting from how comfortable she is with your physical contact are important indicators to how you should proceed. If it feels good it means you need to step up.

Regarding creating tension, are you aware of what you are sub-communicating? You need to be in control of your sub-communication. You need to make sure you're not easy to read. Keep her guessing... Does he like me? Most importantly, do not smile all the time, etc... Well, can you elaborate?

Use of humor. Humor is good, to some extent, but too much humor will kill tension. In addition, you may end up being seen as an entertainer. Don't rely on humor solely, don't be funny all the time. Can you elaborate where you stand here?

Another tip to create tension - a sort of "physical push pull". You've been touching her during the course of your conversation, and she seems to like it and / or touch you back. Now you withdraw. Lean back, and orient your body slightly away from her, and stop touching. "Does he like me? Did I say something?" Now watch her lean forward towards you and touch your forearm. Don't break physical rapport for too long, and reestablish physical presence.

Are you paying attention to her signs of arousal? Things like (i) jiggling excitedly, (ii) suddenly become hyper talkative, (iii) touching you a lot, (iv) drawing your attention to her body (hair, boobs, legs, ...), (v) "accidentally" bumping her boobs into you when you walk, etc... When you see these things, it is time to step up.

Could it be your problem is you are missing the escalation point?

OK please see the above, so I can further guide you.

Seppuku

Hmmm I don't think too many girls touch back. If anything, it might be a forearm touch but that's about it. Definitely none of your signs of arousal, which I've noticed before that I'm definitely not generating. Similarly, girls haven't seemed uncomfortable around me... but not the level of comfort you're implying they should be feeling. It's like they just stay in reserved neutral the entire time.

Regarding being in control of my sub-communication... I can probably do this better, but I just have no idea where I'm at here. I couldn't tell you if I'm easy to read or not.

Humor I'd say is a strong suit for me. But I'm familiar with the pitfalls of being the entertainer, so I do consciously try to make sure I'm not overdoing it. Again, I can't say for sure where I'm at here, but I'm willing to bet I'm NOT being an entertainer.

Finally regarding possibly missing an escalation point... If I am then they must be the smallest, hardest to see escalation points possible. My guess is it's more likely that I'm not even getting escalation opportunities but I defer to you. I could be wrong.

Thanks again for the help Seppuku!

 

[Seppuku]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

Well, you are certainly doing things right, up to some point. They gave you their numbers, then freed up the time to meet you. Made themselves pretty. Came to the date. That's investment! You have a few things left to debug. My guess is, it's not enough sexual tension.

Remember it's all about what you are subcommunicating. What is actually said doesn't count much. And making her laugh doesn't count (Ricardus had an article about this "making her laugh means nothing").

I would say:

• Work on your body language. Make sure you do not give yourself away too easily;
• Give mixed signals. One moment you lean towards her, briefly touch her forearm, you're warm and smile. The next moment you pull back, turn your body slightly away, adopt a neutral expression. Keep her guessing.
• Quit the wide grin forever, and practice the "slow smile" instead. Chase describes it in one of his early articles. It is a half smile, mouth slightly opened, which says "I know more than you know". The sort of smile you would wink on.
• Reduce the humor to a minimum. Focus on building comfort (the deep dive). Focus on building tension.
• Keep touching her but don't overdo it if she doesn't reciprocate touch (if she consciously notices it, it may come across as try hard)
• Try the things I suggested in my posts above

Other thing to work on: how obvious is your sexual intent? It has to be communicated (but not voiced out) somehow in the open. For me I think it's the sexy slow smile that works, plus complete control of myself. "Hiding the banana" (an expression coined by Chase in one article) will come across as creepy "Eeeeerk! This guy just want to get laid!" which is a turn off.

Finally, you should try the leap of faith. You don't have the signs, well fuck it, you're not going to see her again anyway, so you might as well try it. When she's in a room with both you and a bed, it may very well be a very different song.

You guys had a 1h date face to face in a coffee shop. Pay the tab. When you both get out of the coffee shop, take her hand in yours and just walk her to your home. Have an excuse ready if she asks. A music playlist on your Mac. Having a glass of wine. If you feel bold, try "I will introduce you to a friend" (the friend in question being your dick, hahaha!) and play on the mystery about which friend. Well, whatever excuse you like most. But only pull off your excuse if she asks. It is a technique used be salesmen. Assuming the sale already happened. If you hold the frame, it becomes implicitly acknowledged. I use and abuse it personally.

Alright!

Next date, write a field report, and give as many details as you can remember.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[ElderPrice]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

Thanks again Seppuku. I'll definitely try this out and report back with how the date(s) went. I also came across an article from Chase that may help along similar lines: The Perfect Date is Romantically Fun. It sounds like falls right in line with what you're getting at, which is, basically, I need to better focus on making the date more sexual/flirty/interesting in that way.

 

[dcman]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

One girl I met right then and there at a bar (she may have had a lot to drink) was very responsive to my flirting and it got to a point where she basically implied she'd follow my commands so I had fun with it like 'kiss me on the cheek, now give me a big hug, now give me a big kiss' and she did them all. I then tried 3 times to get her to leave with me but she just wouldn't lol. Oh well.

Hi Elderprice ,

looks like either she did not feel sufficient value to come home that night or there were circumstances like friends etc that made her not leave . my 2 cents reading your posts is that you are not eliciting her values and later using this information to provide the value/connection she is looking. Once you get her in this state where she feels you two have a strong bond it is going to be hard to say no to any suggestions you make. MrNYC has written some great posts about eliciting a girls values in the old asf forum. Each girl is different what clicks with one girl may not work with another. Try reading the postings on eliciting values as it may help you overcome this phase. Good Luck

 

[ElderPrice]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

Thanks dcman I’ll check that out! Seppuku, are you looking for my field reports in this thread or should I post them to the FR board?

 

[Seppuku]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

EP,

You should post your field reports in the FR section of the Boards. That will get you more attention and more comments from more guys in the Boards.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[Jakeroviks]

Re: Help me understand flirting/framing/being verbally sexy.. It's just not clic

Really man, this is the easy part. Once you've got her on the date, she has invested. She wants to see you, so create that vacuum and allow HER to chase.

If you're sitting, lean back.
If you're walking, take her hand and lead her.
Say less, listen more.
If she does something silly (and at some point she will), tease her.
All the while, maintain control of the interaction in a calm, relaxed way.
Good luck.