FR How do I seduce a 10?

[StrayDog]

i don't do this is, I've heard and experienced first hand countless times that attraction window doesn't reopen once it expires.

If you discover logistics are bad at the start of the interaction you have two choices. One is to game any way and try to turn it around( this can be a real uphill battle if logistics are bad enough. Her being exhausted from a long day and having an early day the next day can probably be considered bad logistics), two is to keep things brief and end on a high point. In the later, given that you ran a solid game, the attraction window should still be open and you can set up a date to continue building on the ground work you started. Either way you want to find where the strategic advantage is (for the particular scenario) and go from there. it is always a bit of a gamble, but pick up is always a game of risk/reward ratios. Attraction windows usually close either when you some how disqualify yourself (there are a number of ways this can happen) or you fail to make a move when the opportunity is there. Making too big a move too soon is another way to close the attraction window. Grabbing her number when it is the most reasonable thing to do will not close any windows that were definitely open.

That said, yes sometimes it is the right move to just go hail mary in the face of it all. But I don't know that I'd aim for creating those situations as an over arching strategy, when a smarter move is just to calibrate around it. Being able to determine what different logistics mean for the seduction arc is a good skill to develope, and will help with making these sort of discussions. Start with sussing out logstics early, and often (there are ways to do this that don't feel like you are just prying)

 

[Will_V]

i don't do this is, I've heard and experienced first hand countless times that attraction window doesn't reopen once it expires.

In this case, I don't think taking the number would have been a good idea.

There was only one issue here IMO - too much jokes, not enough connection. This was driven by your feeling that she was on a different level (at least relative to your normal).

The tease at the beginning was ballsy and good, and this is very differentiating for you, most guys seeing a hot girl wouldn't dream of telling her she has a bitchy face, even in a fun way. I think this is what really hooked her on you, it put you in a position of 'good looks don't faze me, I just express myself how I want'.

It's a good thing you tried to pull too, and I think it was the right move as well, but there just wasn't enough in it at that point.

An analogy I like to use about pulling is like pulling the stick in a plane when it's taking off. If you pull the stick, the plane will almost always get up off the ground even if it's going too slow (that is, a girl will almost always agree to something in the moment if things are rolling). But if the plane doesn't have enough energy built up, sooner or later it's going right back down whether you like it or not (that is, if you haven't built up enough connection, dealt with her insecurities, etc, the urge to bail will get stronger and stronger as she goes toward your place). And like a plane lifting off, it's much worse to come back down soon after taking off, than it is to have never left the ground to begin with, because now the momentum is negative. The ideal is to pull the stick at the same time that the right amount of energy is built up.

In that sense, personally I think the number would have been a dud, because whatever it is that caused her to retract her enthusiasm for coming over would still have been there in her perception of you, only now with the ability to bail or ghost much more easily.

IMO taking the number is fine if things went well but there's no clear route (emotionally or logistically) to making it happen, or if there is but for whatever reason you don't want to, and you can make it appear like there isn't. Let's say you meet her, have a five minute conversation, she/you has to go - take the number, easy. But in this case, your opener and the insta date was bold and the emotion of that is a big spike that would have been hard to carry over onto the phone - especially when you had a little bit of trouble managing frame, which she would have had time to think about later.

I think you did a bunch of things great - right after 'almost fainting' at how hot she was, you delivered a ballsy read on her that she enjoyed, you got the insta date, and the best thing of all, you pulled the trigger, even if the shot missed. But looking back you can see there was clearly an opportunity to build much more rapport, tease her in more subtle and comfortable ways, do more deep diving and build a connection that would have given you the 'lift' so that when you pulled the stick, the plane just leaps off the ground and stays there.
...
Another point that you might like, that I notice myself doing, is that I separate a woman's beauty from her 'womanliness'. I think a lot of seducers do this - they can see the woman in every woman, whether she's a hot young girl, a fat woman going through a mid life crisis, or an old lady, they sense and manage the 'womanliness' in the same way, in the same 'man to woman' way. Because fundamentally women are all the same, they need the same things from a man, they are led the same way.

But as to her beauty, you can separate that and frame it differently. You can say "I don't know if I deserve this but I'm going to steal it, like a pirate. If someone wants to try and stop me they can." You know, something motivating and intentional.

By separating it you have a good balanced frame, the ability to connect with her and build rapport and deal with her like any woman, but also the motivation to go and take what's yours.

 

[Calibration]

If you don't like her clothing you can find other ways to compliment her that arent her body. "Honestly, You hold yourself very gracefully and it caught my eye" "Obviously you are vibrant either way" and so on. Also instead of complimenting her, you could have just brushed it off "Well, either way here we are, and that's cool." Or frame it in a way that she is a part of your boldness "Something about your presence compelled me to be bold. So really it was a team effort."

I'm seeing a pattern in how you turn things to a "WE". I think this is good but I'm hesitant to do that cos I'll fall into the friend zone. But will give this a try next time.

Or if you go a cocky route maybe soften it a bit "Just a man of action I suppose" (said while shrugging). But anyway it's not like this moment broke the interaction, just sets a certain tone. Cocky can do wonders in certain measures, but it can also really polarize

Most of the successes I've got before game days were from my cocky humour. Its a double edged sword; either they love it or hate it. Very polarising but equally ineffective I'm not uncalibrated.

This is really about calibration. In this instance on the date, it was a joke that solidified her frame of wanting the right guy to raise kids with. You Literally put yourself in the position of saying "well maybe I am Mr right" (which she immediately disqualified you from). So not saying these kinds of jokes can't land (especially with a strong lover frame already set) but this one ultimately did you a disservice.

You're right. I totally missed the context and was just compensating for my lack of control by being an entertainer.

I am noticing you often have examples of joking in your field reports. Not saying joking is bad, at all. But I want to put forth that maybe you are relying too heavily on it, and it doesn't always suit the purposes of your seduction. I say this coming from a place of having been very jokey in the past myself. I have always been a funny dude, and I think I developed a social mechanism that said "making people laugh/being clever=success." But this often isn't true. It is often a reaction over results strategy. When I started cutting back I was able to see more results, as well as better understand humor more as a tool than a crutch

This and what @Will_V mentioned, has made me think. I never realised why I become over-enthusiastic around hot girls and thought just the situation didn't play-out according to what I was expecting but knowing that its a normal behaviour is in itself an anti-dote. I just have to find a way to be aware of myself. Perhaps, this can be a game-changer cos when I used to go salsa dancing several years ago, I used to keep grinning ear to ear if the girl was hot. Now, I realise all the fuck-ups due to such behaviour.
In my LR recently I mentioned that I have turned cold-hearted. I think it was a way for me to realise what works.

But it does matter, this was at the peak of things falling apart. The peak of you two frame battling. She was basically implying you have no merit to her (whether she was serious or not). There is tons of sub-communication going on here. It is important to understand the underlying dynamic, to better handle these sorts of moments.

Ya, it was not calibrated looking back cos I had just teased her and perhaps she had enough by that point.

Start by finding out what she is going through, then offer a solution that suits the moment. Telling her to come in for a hug is a gamble. Especially when there is little precedence of kino, or compliance beforehand. Gather info, then respond. The solution you offered was one that she sensed came with a personal agenda "everyone wants it from me" she felt like you were trying to get something from her, not offer her a solution to her emotional state.

I'll see if being really warm makes a difference with the next girl.

what indications did you have that this was the right moment to pull her? was there a strong indication that the momentum of your interaction was headed in this direction, or was this something that you read into the interaction that wasn't really there? Things aren't always as they appear. For example, just cause a woman is in your bed, doesn't mean she is ready to have sex with you.

I usually see if she is comfortable with my touch or if she flinches or if she is laughing at my jokes. Is she investing a lot in the conversation? etc
What do you normally look for?

I used to fall deeply in the boyfriend/friend zone. I rarely have that problem anymore (I have other problems), but when I did it was rarely due to a lack of teasing. It is about how you frame yourself and the interaction easygoing, a breeziness, an escape from routine, free flowing, eschewing social norms, a sexual authority, a strong display of personal boundaries, a non-judgmental mindset, and so on.

All the times I have not teased, I've fallen into friend zone.

Attraction is built through presence, command of oneself, and demonstrating competence. If you posess these qualities it is a reasonable assumption. The function of teasing is either a form of building connections or setting boundaries. It is only one piece of the pie.

Ya, I agree about teasing not being the silver bullet of seduction.

If you discover logistics are bad at the start of the interaction you have two choices. One is to game any way and try to turn it around (this can be a real uphill battle if logistics are bad enough. Her being exhausted from a long day and having an early day the next day can probably be considered bad logistics), two is to keep things brief and end on a high point. In the later, given that you ran a solid game, the attraction window should still be open and you can set up a date to continue building on the ground work you started. Either way you want to find where the strategic advantage is (for the particular scenario) and go from there. it is always a bit of a gamble, but pick up is always a game of risk/reward ratios. Attraction windows usually close either when you some how disqualify yourself (there are a number of ways this can happen) or you fail to make a move when the opportunity is there. Making too big a move too soon is another way to close the attraction window. Grabbing her number when it is the most reasonable thing to do will not close any windows that were definitely open.

That said, yes sometimes it is the right move to just go hail mary in the face of it all. But I don't know that I'd aim for creating those situations as an over arching strategy, when a smarter move is just to calibrate around it. Being able to determine what different logistics mean for the seduction arc is a good skill to develope, and will help with making these sort of discussions. Start with sussing out logstics early, and often (there are ways to do this that don't feel like you are just prying)

She said she is going to leave my city in a week. So, I had to try my best. But I agree that there are times when getting contact would be the best thing to do.
I mentioned in the passing somewhere earlier that I met a girl, got her home and she freaked out. After she freaked out, I took her outside my apartment and talked to her warmly for nearly 30mins and she recovered. She asked to be in touch and she is leaving my city tomorrow but she wants me to be in touch with her. She clearly needs an orbiter. In this case, I'd think having her number is as good as not having it. So, I just was thinking that I should've rather not taken her number and left her on a high-note. We think we are gaming but sometimes they are gaming us.

In this case, I don't think taking the number would have been a good idea.

There was only one issue here IMO - too much jokes, not enough connection. This was driven by your feeling that she was on a different level (at least relative to your normal).

The tease at the beginning was ballsy and good, and this is very differentiating for you, most guys seeing a hot girl wouldn't dream of telling her she has a bitchy face, even in a fun way. I think this is what really hooked her on you, it put you in a position of 'good looks don't faze me, I just express myself how I want'.

It's a good thing you tried to pull too, and I think it was the right move as well, but there just wasn't enough in it at that point.

I'm doing something seriously wrong somewhere. I just have to point out what that is, I guess. I've already got enough inputs from you guys, I'll have to start experimenting those things and see if that makes any difference. Cos when I meet a girl, she'll be all over me. As time passes, she just loses interest and I don't know what exactly causes that. In this case, probably it was teasing too much but I have lost a lot of girls mid-way who I thought is in the bag.

For ex: the girl I mentioned above who freaked out after bringing her home, she was totally into me. I'll just try to summarise what happened with her: She was slowly walking around the waterfront taking pictures, I went to her and said she looks super cute. She was grinning from ear to ear. I spoke to her for about 5-10 mins there and we grabbed a coffee and went to the water front and sat there for another 10-15mins. There was a lot of kino. At one point I said jokingly, if you do that, I'll go away. She said "I'll start crying if you do that" and hugged me. Then it started to get windy and cold and I thought its a good excuse to bounce her home. As we were walking to our apartment I told her that I'm going to show the drawing I made of a girl who is like her with green eyes. She said yes. Then as we got into my apartment, in the lift she looked extremely worried and said "I didn't know we are going to your apartment" and I said "I told you". She said, I thought you are going to show that drawing somewhere else and not in your apartment. She said hope you are not a serial-killer and don't judge me. I comforted her a lot. Then I went to the toilet and got back and she asked me to show the drawing and as soon as she saw it, she said she wants to leave. She was kind of very anxious and a bit shaking. I did everything in my capacity to comfort her and at last I even said "Relax! you were fine outside and I know you were attracted to me". She said "no, I don't find you attractive" and was rushing. Then I said, that's fine. I'll see you off. Then as we went out, I said lets talk and we sat on a bench for 30mins and talked and she said, she was very very scared. I told how sex is over-rated and I don't have sex with anyone and everyone, for me connection is super-important to have sex. She said sorry for saying that she is not attracted to me. I said, it doesn't change anything to me. I still find you attractive and someone else's opinion does matter to me at all etc.. Then she asked if you want to meet me again? I said not sure. Then I half-heartedly took her number and said, I may or may not reach out to her. Today I sent her a text saying, we should meet if she likes and she said she is down to meet during the day tomorrow and she is going to leave my city in the evening.

An analogy I like to use about pulling is like pulling the stick in a plane when it's taking off. If you pull the stick, the plane will almost always get up off the ground even if it's going too slow (that is, a girl will almost always agree to something in the moment if things are rolling). But if the plane doesn't have enough energy built up, sooner or later it's going right back down whether you like it or not (that is, if you haven't built up enough connection, dealt with her insecurities, etc, the urge to bail will get stronger and stronger as she goes toward your place). And like a plane lifting off, it's much worse to come back down soon after taking off, than it is to have never left the ground to begin with, because now the momentum is negative. The ideal is to pull the stick at the same time that the right amount of energy is built up.

This is a good analogy. Will keep that in mind. Being an engineer, things like these normally help me to understand things better.

In that sense, personally I think the number would have been a dud, because whatever it is that caused her to retract her enthusiasm for coming over would still have been there in her perception of you, only now with the ability to bail or ghost much more easily.

IMO taking the number is fine if things went well but there's no clear route (emotionally or logistically) to making it happen, or if there is but for whatever reason you don't want to, and you can make it appear like there isn't. Let's say you meet her, have a five minute conversation, she/you has to go - take the number, easy. But in this case, your opener and the insta date was bold and the emotion of that is a big spike that would have been hard to carry over onto the phone - especially when you had a little bit of trouble managing frame, which she would have had time to think about later.

I think you did a bunch of things great - right after 'almost fainting' at how hot she was, you delivered a ballsy read on her that she enjoyed, you got the insta date, and the best thing of all, you pulled the trigger, even if the shot missed. But looking back you can see there was clearly an opportunity to build much more rapport, tease her in more subtle and comfortable ways, do more deep diving and build a connection that would have given you the 'lift' so that when you pulled the stick, the plane just leaps off the ground and stays there.
...
Another point that you might like, that I notice myself doing, is that I separate a woman's beauty from her 'womanliness'. I think a lot of seducers do this - they can see the woman in every woman, whether she's a hot young girl, a fat woman going through a mid life crisis, or an old lady, they sense and manage the 'womanliness' in the same way, in the same 'man to woman' way. Because fundamentally women are all the same, they need the same things from a man, they are led the same way.

This is funny cos I used to have something similar that I used to think of a couple of years ago. I would think of girls as a "ball of emotions". When I see them before I approach, I'd say to myself, another "ball of emotions", regardless of how hot or whatever she was. I stopped this after a couple of girls were rude and rejected very badly. I kind of grew hostile towards girls for quite sometime. Then I totally forgot that mindset. There are a few bad apples definitely and because of them, it just changed how I viewed girls.

But as to her beauty, you can separate that and frame it differently. You can say "I don't know if I deserve this but I'm going to steal it, like a pirate. If someone wants to try and stop me they can." You know, something motivating and intentional.

By separating it you have a good balanced frame, the ability to connect with her and build rapport and deal with her like any woman, but also the motivation to go and take what's yours.

This is a good mindset. Thanks.

 

[POB]

You are right cos this literally happened recently with another girl who came home with me and freaked out and left cos I had not addressed her ASD concerns. I didn't post the report cos it was too messed up. I jumped the gun too quickly. Problem I'm noticing with my seductions are, I skip steps quite often cos I don't remember them. Are there any tips to remember everything?

Read a lot about the subject and memorize some gambits and sexual framing lines.
Teevster recently posted a superb compilation of his gambits:
https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/sex-talk-gambits-compilation-and-more.24957/

Usually you insert those during phases 02 and 03 of your dates, after the first bounce.
(Phase 01 is just so she gets to know a bit more about you and feel safe).

About secret society, a simple convo I've used a lot starts like this:
"Well X, you know, I really don't get why society is so harsh to you girls....just bear with me, why a man who fucks a lot of chicks is considered a stallion, but a single girl going out and having fun is considered a slut? Why put shame on you guys just because you are doing something so natural, fun and amazing as having sex, just like us?". Then watch her eyes glow.

Side note: you don't just memorize...you have to say it like you believe and in the most natural way possible.

I know it should not be memorized but until I get to a point where everything flows naturally, is there a solution to this?

Sadly no, you have to practice in-field.
One thing I did in my online days was to go out with cute chicks I was not that attracted to, just to get cracks at it.
My focus was to take the pressure off for when the hottest ones arrived.

I also set up silent alarms to vibrate after the date started.
This way I had a natural time constraint to either end the date and set up day 02 or to bounce her to the new location.

 

[StrayDog]

I'm seeing a pattern in how you turn things to a "WE". I think this is good but I'm hesitant to do that cos I'll fall into the friend zone. But will give this a try next time.

Friend zone? naw. Again, a lot of factors go into whether she slots you into, friend, provider, lover. It's not a sense of connection that does this. Friends "We" in a platonic way. "We are never going to have sex." Couples "We" in a couples way "We need to discuss where our relationship is headed." Lovers "We" in lover ways. "We are going to have so many orgasms." It is the frame around the connection, not the connection itself.

You don't want to overdo it of course. That might feel try hard like you are forcing a connection. You still want some mystery and tension. Like sex gambits should be more ambiguous at first. But, by framing a few key moments as "We" and directing that frame towards the context of lovers, you build a sense of collaboration. You are on the same team, and that team is working towards a strong sexual connection. Look for ways to sub-communicate that you both want the same things. That you are both working together. Passionate, unbridled sex is a "We" thing

Most of the successes I've got before game days were from my cocky humour. Its a double edged sword; either they love it or hate it. Very polarising but equally ineffective I'm not uncalibrated.

totally. Good to be cocky, good to tease. But only in good measure. Like @Will_V said, your cockiness when cold reading her "resting bitch face" is what sparked initial attraction.

I'll see if being really warm makes a difference with the next girl.

Maybe it's being warm, maybe not. Maybe the move is to bring more energy and snap her out of whatever funk she is in. The point is that if you have more info on what is behind her emotional state, you have more tools to calibrate to it and make a smart move.

I usually see if she is comfortable with my touch or if she flinches or if she is laughing at my jokes. Is she investing a lot in the conversation? etc
What do you normally look for?

Receptiveness to touch is good, of course, the other two aren't the best indicators though. Laughing at your jokes, investing in the conversation. Friends do these things. Lovers do too, but just because those elements are present doesn't mean there is strong momentum in that direction.

Here are some things I look for
-Is she accepting the frames you are building? or better yet participating in them
-Is there strong precedence of her complying, and following your lead?
-Does the interaction have momentum behind it that feels like it is building and building
-Look at the seduction arc, has it moved from basic rapport building to deep dive, then gaining levity things are more playful flirtatious fun. Positive tension
-Is this moment a real high point? All the right elements are in place and the energy has peaked

Results over reactions. What results have you been getting, not what reations

All the times I have not teased, I've fallen into friend zone.

Perhaps this points to the reason for over-reliance on teasing. It is a good tool in the seduction tool kit, but it is not the only thing that keeps us out of the friend zone

She said she is going to leave my city in a week. So, I had to try my best. But I agree that there are times when getting contact would be the best thing to do.
I mentioned in the passing somewhere earlier that I met a girl, got her home and she freaked out. After she freaked out, I took her outside my apartment and talked to her warmly for nearly 30mins and she recovered. She asked to be in touch and she is leaving my city tomorrow but she wants me to be in touch with her. She clearly needs an orbiter. In this case, I'd think having her number is as good as not having it. So, I just was thinking that I should've rather not taken her number and left her on a high-note. We think we are gaming but sometimes they are gaming us.

Yeah, It sounds like going for it was the right move in this scenario. I still stand by the power of screening logistics early and often though. just as a general seduction tactic

I'm doing something seriously wrong somewhere. I just have to point out what that is, I guess. I've already got enough inputs from you guys, I'll have to start experimenting those things and see if that makes any difference. Cos when I meet a girl, she'll be all over me. As time passes, she just loses interest and I don't know what exactly causes that. In this case, probably it was teasing too much but I have lost a lot of girls mid-way who I thought is in the bag.

For ex: the girl I mentioned above who freaked out after bringing her home, she was totally into me. I'll just try to summarise what happened with her: She was slowly walking around the waterfront taking pictures, I went to her and said she looks super cute. She was grinning from ear to ear. I spoke to her for about 5-10 mins there and we grabbed a coffee and went to the water front and sat there for another 10-15mins. There was a lot of kino. At one point I said jokingly, if you do that, I'll go away. She said "I'll start crying if you do that" and hugged me. Then it started to get windy and cold and I thought its a good excuse to bounce her home. As we were walking to our apartment I told her that I'm going to show the drawing I made of a girl who is like her with green eyes. She said yes. Then as we got into my apartment, in the lift she looked extremely worried and said "I didn't know we are going to your apartment" and I said "I told you". She said, I thought you are going to show that drawing somewhere else and not in your apartment. She said hope you are not a serial-killer and don't judge me. I comforted her a lot. Then I went to the toilet and got back and she asked me to show the drawing and as soon as she saw it, she said she wants to leave. She was kind of very anxious and a bit shaking. I did everything in my capacity to comfort her and at last I even said "Relax! you were fine outside and I know you were attracted to me". She said "no, I don't find you attractive" and was rushing. Then I said, that's fine. I'll see you off. Then as we went out, I said lets talk and we sat on a bench for 30mins and talked and she said, she was very very scared. I told how sex is over-rated and I don't have sex with anyone and everyone, for me connection is super-important to have sex. She said sorry for saying that she is not attracted to me. I said, it doesn't change anything to me. I still find you attractive and someone else's opinion does matter to me at all etc.. Then she asked if you want to meet me again? I said not sure. Then I half-heartedly took her number and said, I may or may not reach out to her. Today I sent her a text saying, we should meet if she likes and she said she is down to meet during the day tomorrow and she is going to leave my city in the evening.

This is a whole other can of worms. Can definitely relate. It is often tricky to pinpoint exactly where we are misstepping. It can be frustrating when we are so close yet so far. That's why I am grateful for this community. It really helps to have new input and perspective.

 

[Beck Bass]

An analogy I like to use about pulling is like pulling the stick in a plane when it's taking off. If you pull the stick, the plane will almost always get up off the ground even if it's going too slow (that is, a girl will almost always agree to something in the moment if things are rolling). But if the plane doesn't have enough energy built up, sooner or later it's going right back down whether you like it or not (that is, if you haven't built up enough connection, dealt with her insecurities, etc, the urge to bail will get stronger and stronger as she goes toward your place). And like a plane lifting off, it's much worse to come back down soon after taking off, than it is to have never left the ground to begin with, because now the momentum is negative. The ideal is to pull the stick at the same time that the right amount of energy is built up.

Oooh love that plane analogy, a lot of things actually have that "minimal energy necessary" type of thing. I guess with a girl, she'll "weight your game" (everything you showed her) and decide if she's ready or not (to be fucked by you). A lot of guys seem to think that it comes down to one of two things, and yeah, sure, one or two bad mistakes can make you lose a girl, but everything counts (somethings more, somethings less, but still). You need to develop that instinct for when to pull "naturally" (ie with experience), trying to pull girls and seeing where it goes, sometimes the "plane will take off", and sometimes not, and then you will start get a better feeling of when to "pull the stick" (or pull the girl in this case).

If the girl is reaaally attractive (like a 10, or a 7/7 as I like to call them lol), she's gonna be a hard nut to crack, you really have to be on top of your game, and probably get lucky too, since you often don't get those girls (I don't know anyone that regularly pull '10s", even if they do, if might be their tens, so they have very specialized game for the type of girls they dig).

I don't know why I couldn't stop teasing her for everything she said.

Probably because you put her on a pedestal, your approach was great, but then you just overgamed, tried too hard. As @Skills wrote the teasing loses it's punch if you use it too much, girls want new experiences, mystery, a rollercoaster ride, but after so much teasing she already expects even more teasing from you, and when she gets it, she's disapppointed. Eventually you gotta drop the pretense and just try to connect with her on a deeper level, get more kino going, that type of stuff.

 

[Calibration]

Friend zone? naw. Again, a lot of factors go into whether she slots you into, friend, provider, lover. It's not a sense of connection that does this. Friends "We" in a platonic way. "We are never going to have sex." Couples "We" in a couples way "We need to discuss where our relationship is headed." Lovers "We" in lover ways. "We are going to have so many orgasms." It is the frame around the connection, not the connection itself.

You don't want to overdo it of course. That might feel try hard like you are forcing a connection. You still want some mystery and tension. Like sex gambits should be more ambiguous at first. But, by framing a few key moments as "We" and directing that frame towards the context of lovers, you build a sense of collaboration. You are on the same team, and that team is working towards a strong sexual connection. Look for ways to sub-communicate that you both want the same things. That you are both working together. Passionate, unbridled sex is a "We" thing

totally. Good to be cocky, good to tease. But only in good measure. Like @Will_V said, your cockiness when cold reading her "resting bitch face" is what sparked initial attraction.

Maybe it's being warm, maybe not. Maybe the move is to bring more energy and snap her out of whatever funk she is in. The point is that if you have more info on what is behind her emotional state, you have more tools to calibrate to it and make a smart move.

Receptiveness to touch is good, of course, the other two aren't the best indicators though. Laughing at your jokes, investing in the conversation. Friends do these things. Lovers do too, but just because those elements are present doesn't mean there is strong momentum in that direction.

Here are some things I look for
-Is she accepting the frames you are building? or better yet participating in them
-Is there strong precedence of her complying, and following your lead?
-Does the interaction have momentum behind it that feels like it is building and building
-Look at the seduction arc, has it moved from basic rapport building to deep dive, then gaining levity things are more playful flirtatious fun. Positive tension
-Is this moment a real high point? All the right elements are in place and the energy has peaked

Results over reactions. What results have you been getting, not what reations


Perhaps this points to the reason for over-reliance on teasing. It is a good tool in the seduction tool kit, but it is not the only thing that keeps us out of the friend zone

Yeah, It sounds like going for it was the right move in this scenario. I still stand by the power of screening logistics early and often though. just as a general seduction tactic

This is a whole other can of worms. Can definitely relate. It is often tricky to pinpoint exactly where we are misstepping. It can be frustrating when we are so close yet so far. That's why I am grateful for this community. It really helps to have new input and perspective.

After the last lay, I've lost 6 girls.. 2 instant dates when trying to pull home and 4 numbers (3 looked promising and fell off the radar after some back and forth). Worst part is, among those 6 most of them were hot or cute but one of them was average, even she bailed. I'm starting to lose hope again. This is exhausting tbh...
I've been in this place many times but this was a lot in a very short time of 10 days. Feels very very frustrating and overwhelming.. These kind of results fucks up my inner game even more

 

[StrayDog]

In this case, I don't think taking the number would have been a good idea.

There was only one issue here IMO - too much jokes, not enough connection. This was driven by your feeling that she was on a different level (at least relative to your normal).

The tease at the beginning was ballsy and good, and this is very differentiating for you, most guys seeing a hot girl wouldn't dream of telling her she has a bitchy face, even in a fun way. I think this is what really hooked her on you, it put you in a position of 'good looks don't faze me, I just express myself how I want'.

It's a good thing you tried to pull too, and I think it was the right move as well, but there just wasn't enough in it at that point.

An analogy I like to use about pulling is like pulling the stick in a plane when it's taking off. If you pull the stick, the plane will almost always get up off the ground even if it's going too slow (that is, a girl will almost always agree to something in the moment if things are rolling). But if the plane doesn't have enough energy built up, sooner or later it's going right back down whether you like it or not (that is, if you haven't built up enough connection, dealt with her insecurities, etc, the urge to bail will get stronger and stronger as she goes toward your place). And like a plane lifting off, it's much worse to come back down soon after taking off, than it is to have never left the ground to begin with, because now the momentum is negative. The ideal is to pull the stick at the same time that the right amount of energy is built up.

In that sense, personally I think the number would have been a dud, because whatever it is that caused her to retract her enthusiasm for coming over would still have been there in her perception of you, only now with the ability to bail or ghost much more easily.

IMO taking the number is fine if things went well but there's no clear route (emotionally or logistically) to making it happen, or if there is but for whatever reason you don't want to, and you can make it appear like there isn't. Let's say you meet her, have a five minute conversation, she/you has to go - take the number, easy. But in this case, your opener and the insta date was bold and the emotion of that is a big spike that would have been hard to carry over onto the phone - especially when you had a little bit of trouble managing frame, which she would have had time to think about later.

I think you did a bunch of things great - right after 'almost fainting' at how hot she was, you delivered a ballsy read on her that she enjoyed, you got the insta date, and the best thing of all, you pulled the trigger, even if the shot missed. But looking back you can see there was clearly an opportunity to build much more rapport, tease her in more subtle and comfortable ways, do more deep diving and build a connection that would have given you the 'lift' so that when you pulled the stick, the plane just leaps off the ground and stays there.
...
Another point that you might like, that I notice myself doing, is that I separate a woman's beauty from her 'womanliness'. I think a lot of seducers do this - they can see the woman in every woman, whether she's a hot young girl, a fat woman going through a mid life crisis, or an old lady, they sense and manage the 'womanliness' in the same way, in the same 'man to woman' way. Because fundamentally women are all the same, they need the same things from a man, they are led the same way.

But as to her beauty, you can separate that and frame it differently. You can say "I don't know if I deserve this but I'm going to steal it, like a pirate. If someone wants to try and stop me they can." You know, something motivating and intentional.

By separating it you have a good balanced frame, the ability to connect with her and build rapport and deal with her like any woman, but also the motivation to go and take what's yours.

Man @Will_V you always have a great way of illustrating these bigger picture mindsets. I often feel like my perspective has expanded when you throw down like this.

Would you mind expounding on this moment here:

-But as to her beauty, you can separate that and frame it differently. You can say "I don't know if I deserve this but I'm going to steal it, like a pirate. If someone wants to try and stop me they can." You know, something motivating and intentional.-

I feel like you are striking some real gold here, and I just want to understand more of what you ar putting forth

 

[POB]

After the last lay, I've lost 6 girls.. 2 instant dates when trying to pull home and 4 numbers (3 looked promising and fell off the radar after some back and forth). Worst part is, among those 6 most of them were hot or cute but one of them was average, even she bailed. I'm starting to lose hope again.

Ups and downs of seduction.
Once I had a run of fucking 5 chicks in one week....soon after all my regulars dropped from rotation and I spent the next two months without a lay. Even average chicks were flat out rejecting me!
Felt like shit, I won't lie.
Gotta focus on what you can control (how you approach, your deliveries, grooming, etc).

This is exhausting tbh...
I've been in this place many times but this was a lot in a very short time of 10 days. Feels very very frustrating and overwhelming.. These kind of results fucks up my inner game even more

Seduction IS hard.
This is why it's easier to throw your hands in the air and go red/black pill or MGTOW.
To make you feel better, usually when that overload happens it's because you are on the verge of a major breakthrough!
If I were you, I would get a quick break from approaching and study in-depth the material I showed you in my previous comment.
Also take that time to do some meditation and positive affirmations to improve your state before you go back out there.

 

[Skills]

After the last lay, I've lost 6 girls.. 2 instant dates when trying to pull home and 4 numbers (3 looked promising and fell off the radar after some back and forth). Worst part is, among those 6 most of them were hot or cute but one of them was average, even she bailed. I'm starting to lose hope again. This is exhausting tbh...
I've been in this place many times but this was a lot in a very short time of 10 days. Feels very very frustrating and overwhelming.. These kind of results fucks up my inner game even more

you are freestyling on your dates vs doing a proper dating structure (3 bounce stuff) main thing you lack proper indirect sex talk/second gen, and you are misapplying texting advice at times,(he sent me screen shots), is not horrible or cringe, is just as you practice and calibrate (which you are totally lacking) and as you apply concepts correctly with practicing, you will improve... Again your main problem are lack of structure on dates/proper sexualization, you overreach in texting interactions at times, you go at times a bit too direct on texting. With times and practice this should improve.

 

[StrayDog]

Seduction IS hard.

Yeah. No safety net. No training dojo. All real time, in field. It takes gumption. For real. I know guys who fought in wars can't bring themselves to approach a woman (not that that is the same thing).
@Shawn you're out her doing it dude. You just hooked up with a total babe. That you met on the street that day. Do you know how many guys will never experience the sweet thrill of that. All the while longing in quiet desperation. All because they lack the gumption a man like you poses. Just saying. I wouldn't let your recent success fade too quickly from your grasp. You created that for yourself. For the two of you (I'm sure she had a fun time). If you did it once, you can definitely do it again.

 

[Will_V]

Man @Will_V you always have a great way of illustrating these bigger picture mindsets. I often feel like my perspective has expanded when you throw down like this.

Glad you enjoyed it!

Would you mind expounding on this moment here:

-But as to her beauty, you can separate that and frame it differently. You can say "I don't know if I deserve this but I'm going to steal it, like a pirate. If someone wants to try and stop me they can." You know, something motivating and intentional.-

I feel like you are striking some real gold here, and I just want to understand more of what you ar putting forth

Especially when we are inexperienced with women (but I think it more or less exists in every man) it's very easy to conflate a woman's identity with her physical beauty. To think that if she's exceptionally hot, she is a different being, living on a higher plane of existence. Thinking we have to act differently, behave differently, pressuring ourselves to merit reaching up toward her level. The problem is that 1) obviously this is not true and 2) it makes it hard to think of seducing her and taking her to bed and playing around with her the way we would a 'normal' girl that we liked, which is also the way that girls like to be treated. This could be because she seems so different and unfamiliar, but also we might get a madonna complex, thinking that fucking her like any other girl is sullying her pristine presence, because she is innately special.

This creates loads of tension, anxiety and confusion because we lose the sense of where the tried and true path lies in the seduction.

The reality of women being all the same (in the sense of their 'womanliness') is a very powerful thing to remember because it normalizes the interaction into Man and Woman (as opposed to Hot Woman and <Something> Guy). Man is born to be a certain way with Woman, Woman is born to be a certain way with Man. That's how nature created it, that's how it will always be, and her physical beauty will never change that.

It also enables you as a man to enjoy the Woman in every woman. I treat women more or less the same regardless of how she looks, if I see a fat girl with short blue hair and glasses, I can make her femininity react to my masculinity the same way I can with any other girl. I can make a 50 year old woman look at me wide eyed the same way that a 20 year old does. Because her feminine sprite, the Woman in her, is the same, and is catalyzed by the Man in me in the same way. I can enjoy all of them apart from their physical beauty or lack of it, because the Woman is distributed among them, and is of the same origin. Doesn't mean I want to fuck all women, but they all feel it when I'm there, and that's how I like it. I like being able to have an effect on any girl I choose, to be able to affirm myself sexually as a man in any situation, and to be able to make any woman, regardless of how she looks, feel like a woman.

Now if you have an exceptionally hot girl, there's another thing that this separation of her womanliness and physical beauty does. It's kind of hard to explain, but I suppose the best way to describe it is that you can both conspire to steal her beauty. You (as Man) and her (as Woman) can connect on one level, and she knows she has this wealth (her beauty) but it isn't her, it's outside of that connection. So you can play around with that and treat her like she's a silly rich girl carrying a bag with a million dollars in it, and she waves it around laughing and you tease her a bit and play around with her a bit and eventually you are both enjoying the money. Hope that doesn't sound like complete nonsense! But that's sort of how I look at it.

 

[StrayDog]

Now if you have an exceptionally hot girl, there's another thing that this separation of her womanliness and physical beauty does. It's kind of hard to explain, but I suppose the best way to describe it is that you can both conspire to steal her beauty. You (as Man) and her (as Woman) can connect on one level, and she knows she has this wealth (her beauty) but it isn't her, it's outside of that connection. So you can play around with that and treat her like she's a silly rich girl carrying a bag with a million dollars in it, and she waves it around laughing and you tease her a bit and play around with her a bit and eventually you are both enjoying the money. Hope that doesn't sound like complete nonsense! But that's sort of how I look at it.

Makes perfect sense. Challenge the notion that her beauty belongs solely to her. It is just something she was given. But the whole world was given it as well. When she looks in the mirror she is admiring it or resenting it or what ever she feels, just the same as everyone else. Her relationship to it is of course more personal, but it is a position she has done nothing to earn. That's where the way you command yourself challenges her. "Who says you are the only one who gets such a personal relationship to this beauty?" Most her life is people treating her as though her beauty is hers and hers alone. They covet it. It reinforces in her this sense if privilege. You however, understand that a piece of her beauty belongs to everyone as much as it belongs to her. In this sense, you already have a piece of that beauty. With this understanding, you demonstrate to her that she alone is not entitled to this natural wonder. You playful tease her "look what I have, you thought it was yours but its not." This actually relieves her of something she never really asked for. Something that was just thrust upon her, with all of its blessings and curses. You compell her to share more of herself with you and she happily obliges.

 

[Will_V]

Most her life is people treating her as though her beauty is hers and hers alone. They covet it. It reinforces in her this sense if privilege.

Yes, in some ways it's also a burden, in the sense that she doesn't know exactly how to use it to get what she wants.

That's why I used the example of a girl with a million dollars. She looks at the money and she knows it's useful, but she doesn't know exactly how to turn it into happiness. As a man you can come in, connect with her at a completely different level, and then communicate "listen I know exactly what to do with it so we can both enjoy ourselves, just follow my lead". But if a man comes in, forgets or fails to connect, acts uncomfortable and starts staring at the bag or whatever, or tries to treat her like she's high status because of the money, she just gets uncomfortable, because this guy has done nothing to demonstrate that he can bring her to the happiness she desires.

 

[StrayDog]

Yes, in some ways it's also a burden, in the sense that she doesn't know exactly how to use it to get what she wants.

That's why I used the example of a girl with a million dollars. She looks at the money and she knows it's useful, but she doesn't know exactly how to turn it into happiness. As a man you can come in, connect with her at a completely different level, and then communicate "listen I know exactly what to do with it so we can both enjoy ourselves, just follow my lead". But if a man comes in, forgets or fails to connect, acts uncomfortable and starts staring at the bag or whatever, or tries to treat her like she's high status because of the money, she just gets uncomfortable, because this guy has done nothing to demonstrate that he can bring her to the happiness she desires.

Totally! Other people aren't the only ones to get hung up on it. She herself gets hung up on it. When some dude gets hung up on it it just reminds her of her predicament. When someone competent comes in and demonstrates a compelling way to lead things "Don't get hung up on your beauty dear, it can actually lead you to what you truly desire, but you have to be an active participant. You have to be generous with yourself", she is relieved of the burden.

When you have spent your life never really having to work for something it is hard to see the joy in it (in this case male attention). That is how a woman can be spoiled on her own beauty. She is rarely made to actually have to flirt. She wants to be compelled to invest because that is what gives meaning to her beauty. When she is made to actually play the game, her material spoils become riches. Rich with meaning and life. Unlike her natural beauty, this is something that can only be acquired through earning it. By looking past her beauty you are giving her the opportunity to earn what she is naturally driven to desire. You don't rob her of that opportunity, as so many drooling men do. The opportunity to reveal herself, invest herself, risk herself, to really be seen, touched... The opportunity to co-creating a passionate moment with a man who sparks desire in her. You respect her enough to not just give her handouts based on something she has no control over.

 

[Beck Bass]

That's why I used the example of a girl with a million dollars. She looks at the money and she knows it's useful, but she doesn't know exactly how to turn it into happiness.

Will coming in with those genius comparations, it's like a seduction Jesus teaching us with them paraboles lol
I think this one really nails why most guys fail with hot girls, they just get stuck thinking about them tidies and forget about the person inside.

 

[Will_V]

Will coming in with those genius comparations, it's like a seduction Jesus teaching us with them paraboles lol

One thing my mind is very good at is running two different concepts at the same time and finding on what points they match. For example I can think of a seduction literally in terms of a plane taking off, and still be thinking of it as a seduction. I don't know where I got this, I've always had an affinity for analogies and symbolism, which I happen to believe is the language of the subconscious. Think of dreams for example - they make no sense, merging all kinds of different objects and situations in an illogical way, but at the same time the message they send can be incredibly powerful.

But the concepts themselves I don't claim to have come up with. Zan Perrion is probably the person who most developed my sense of seeing the woman in every woman, through listening to his talks. It's been a theme in a lot of seduction stuff for a long time, and is reflected in reality in a lot of different ways - such as the idea that very good seducers often will enjoy taking all kinds of girls to bed, without the judgemental anxiety that noobs might feel.

I think this one really nails why most guys fail with hot girls, they just get stuck thinking about them tidies and forget about the person inside.

Exactly.

 

[Will_V]

When you have spent your life never really having to work for something it is hard to see the joy in it (in this case male attention). That is how a woman can be spoiled on her own beauty. She is rarely made to actually have to flirt. She wants to be compelled to invest because that is what gives meaning to her beauty.

Well put!

 

[Calibration]

Ups and downs of seduction.
Once I had a run of fucking 5 chicks in one week....soon after all my regulars dropped from rotation and I spent the next two months without a lay. Even average chicks were flat out rejecting me!
Felt like shit, I won't lie.

I can totally relate.

Gotta focus on what you can control (how you approach, your deliveries, grooming, etc).


Seduction IS hard.
This is why it's easier to throw your hands in the air and go red/black pill or MGTOW.

I followed redpill for a few months when I got some harsh rejections but I felt so shit. Cos all my life whether or not I got laid a lot, I've always loved women, flirting with them, teasing them etc. So to hate them was something beyond me. Also, I can empathise with them that if they get bombarded with guys sticking their d*ck out wherever they go, they'd indeed get frustrated at some point. Probably, I'd have been the same too, if I were a girl.

To make you feel better, usually when that overload happens it's because you are on the verge of a major breakthrough!

Hopefully. I sometimes feel like, I'm almost there and I decoded the mystery of this complex algorithm of seduction but then I go all the way back to square one. I'm feeling like that for the past few days.

If I were you, I would get a quick break from approaching

I'm so addicted to approaching that I just can't resist myself when I see a cute or hot chic. Yesterday, I told myself that I'm taking a break but when I was out for a walk, I couldn't resist approaching a cute girl - she didn't have a great body but had a super-cute face. I was not in my best self but still things flowed naturally and she was giggling all the time. When I got back home for my name with wink face, she replied immediately and thanked for talking to her, we texted back and forth but in the end I seriously fucked up with texting again and she ghosted.

and study in-depth the material I showed you in my previous comment.

After that I felt like shit and went to Starbucks and FML this 10 girl of this post was sitting there. She had ghosted me on text. I still went to her and said Hi and chatted a little bit and she obviously was trying to avoid me. I didn't look phased but still wished her good luck for her upcoming travel plans and went sat at a different table and soon after she left.

Anyway, I dug my head deep into the link that you sent and read a lot of it. I've come to realise that I thought I'm good at game but there is a lot for me to learn. I totally missed ASD in all of my interactions and never thought that it needs to be addressed. I thought if there is attraction and comfort, the girl is ready to put out. All the girls that I've slept with are the ones who liked "some things" that I did right, I guess. I always thought addressing ASD is an advanced skill and also sex-talk. But looks like that is where I'm fucking things up.

Also take that time to do some meditation and positive affirmations to improve your state before you go back out there.

Ya, I have stopped doing these things recently, I'll get back to it.

you are freestyling on your dates vs doing a proper dating structure (3 bounce stuff) main thing you lack proper indirect sex talk/second gen, and you are misapplying texting advice at times,(he sent me screen shots), is not horrible or cringe, is just as you practice and calibrate (which you are totally lacking) and as you apply concepts correctly with practicing, you will improve... Again your main problem are lack of structure on dates/proper sexualization, you overreach in texting interactions at times, you go at times a bit too direct on texting. With times and practice this should improve.

You are right bro. I totally lack structure and am missing out on some core concepts. Even you mentioned about ASD. I think its time for me to take a step back and bring things to an order. I'm just bulldozing without a direction and purpose. I need to overhaul my game. BTW, honestly without your texting help, I wouldn't have come this far, I'm very sure.

Yeah. No safety net. No training dojo. All real time, in field. It takes gumption. For real. I know guys who fought in wars can't bring themselves to approach a woman (not that that is the same thing).
@Shawn you're out her doing it dude. You just hooked up with a total babe. That you met on the street that day. Do you know how many guys will never experience the sweet thrill of that. All the while longing in quiet desperation. All because they lack the gumption a man like you poses. Just saying. I wouldn't let your recent success fade too quickly from your grasp. You created that for yourself. For the two of you (I'm sure she had a fun time). If you did it once, you can definitely do it again.

Thanks bro. I really needed this. I was feeling like shit but hearing these kind and encouraging words helps me stay put and keep moving.

Yes, in some ways it's also a burden, in the sense that she doesn't know exactly how to use it to get what she wants.

That's why I used the example of a girl with a million dollars. She looks at the money and she knows it's useful, but she doesn't know exactly how to turn it into happiness. As a man you can come in, connect with her at a completely different level, and then communicate "listen I know exactly what to do with it so we can both enjoy ourselves, just follow my lead".

This is Gold @Will_V . I liked your plane analogy but this is at the next level more of a inner game thing. I always wondered why would a girl like me? Although I have many things to support that but still there is some cognitive dissonance. What I really liked about this is, after the long dry spell I used to feel (at least subconsciously) a hot/cute girl is like a million dollars and I should add my million $$$ to her million $$$. Although that is not a bad thinking but still it puts her on a pedestal and felt like I have to do something more for her to accept me. This is perhaps also why I was teasing and joking a lot with this girl to show her that I'm complementing her life. Instead, thinking that she can have her million $$$ only when she is with me drives the point home.

 

[POB]

When you have spent your life never really having to work for something it is hard to see the joy in it (in this case male attention). That is how a woman can be spoiled on her own beauty. She is rarely made to actually have to flirt. She wants to be compelled to invest because that is what gives meaning to her beauty. When she is made to actually play the game, her material spoils become riches. Rich with meaning and life. Unlike her natural beauty, this is something that can only be acquired through earning it.

Gorgeous women feel tedious all the time because of that attention overload.
Although they crave it on one hand, at the same time they loathe it and wish there was a turn off button.

Those chicks think they have seem and felt it all with guys.

Until comes a motherfucker who cold approaches out of the blue not giving a shit bout her beauty, and only cares about the sensual experience of seduction. This guy does not play by the book, acting completely unphased by looks and immune to her spell.

Damn, who is this man???
Why he is not behaving like I thought he would???

They fall hard for him.

By looking past her beauty you are giving her the opportunity to earn what she is naturally driven to desire. You don't rob her of that opportunity, as so many drooling men do. The opportunity to reveal herself, invest herself, risk herself, to really be seen, touched... The opportunity to co-creating a passionate moment with a man who sparks desire in her. You respect her enough to not just give her handouts based on something she has no control over.

Perfect!