@Skills,
Geez, that piece is a brain-twister.
My head exploded at the number of times the word 'hypergamy' is mentioned in that article.
That thing is filled with freewheeling passages about all these different things happening in all these different women's heads with no anecdotes or anything to back them up, like this:
Rollo Tomassi said:
An Alpha Widow can also be ‘widowed’ from the fantasy of her ideal male. This is fairly common among women who marry early in their Party Years. Most feel like they missed out on having made a good Hypergamous choice (or had it made for them by circumstance or social pressures).
Make you wonder where he's getting it all from.
anyways, i don't say women are not alpha widows but the phenomenon happens again as i said before if she is post break up and not completely healed and over the dude....
- during the "breaking point stages/looking for exist stage of relationship.... where they are looking what are the options.
- if she hooked up with the "marriage type" aka beta but not fully fulfill in her needs.
I am not paranoid at all about this, again most girls guys will date were alpha widows at some point, if you are going to mess with an alpha widow based on the stages i described, obviously you will not ltr but keep as fb or fling... I mean but again this does not change anything anyways, during the bedding process nothing changes.....
I think we're just all using the term semantically different, it looks like.
- Skills definition: an alpha widow is a girl mourning a past relationship, but she'll get over it
- Chase definition: an alpha widow is a girl hung up on an especially impactful relationship, which she may not get over (depends on the girl)
- Rollo Tomassi definition: every woman is an alpha widow who pines for the high SMV man who pumped and dumped her during her party years, and she will never recover from that
Main difference being in Skills world girls always get over it, in Rollo's world they never do, and in Chase's world some of them completely do, while others may not, at least not fully.
@Will_V,
Thanks for the reply Chase!
For me personally, I don't think I'd be keen on simply swapping out (as in dumping, is that what you meant?) a woman who'd raised my kids. I don't believe it's very functional for the family as a whole, especially the kids, and for the woman as well.
That said I very much concur with your sentiments about the sexual attractiveness of an old woman. I think it's natural that a woman trades off sexual value for social status (or family status, as it were) as she gets older and less attractive, and a younger woman fulfills the sexual role. As far as I understand (admittedly not much, mainly just the Shogun novel, and various tidbits of history here and there) about Japanese culture, older women moved to managerial and advisory positions and younger wives occupied the man in his bed. It seems like this sort of thing happened across cultures. It is of course perfectly natural and obvious but, of course, almost impossible to implement in this day and age.
This makes sense to me as I think there is a special value that a wise older woman can provide in a man's life (and the lives of his younger wives, his children, and even his friends and acquaintances) that cannot really be replicated by a younger woman. But not all women grow into this sort of role as they age - the same way that not all men become greater as they grow older, either. In any case perhaps part of the responsibility for whether this happens comes down to the man and how he trains and treats her as his wife over the years, which requires him to consider what role he wants for her and can realistically put into effect.
That's the historically natural state of things, yes.
The older wife moves into a more senior position, managing the household.
The younger wives are there for producing additional children for the husband, but older wives hold seniority over them.
The ancient Chinese handbook for women titled
Biographies of Exemplary Women has a number of wonderful passages designed to prepare a woman for life either as a first wife or a subsequent (lower-ranking) wife. It also talks about positive examples of wives working together, good wives protecting husbands against nefarious/scheming wives, and so on. Quite useful for getting a deep look into a dynamic that's somewhat alien to us today.
Curiously (and I only mention this because you've made some very interesting notes about lion pride behavior in your articles) I noticed that even in the life of the big cats, where females do all the work of hunting and lions sit around doing very little unless there's a fight to be fought with another lion, an old lioness is taken care of by the rest of the pride whereas an old lion is destined for an ignominious fate on his own dying of thirst and hunger. Obviously it's hard to draw parallels here, but it seems even here nature has found a particular utility for taking care of older females.
Yeah, the male lion being cast aside is interesting, but you really have to stretch to try to draw a direct comparison with humans.
Humans don't practice polygyny the same way lions or gorillas do, where one male has a harem of females, and other males try to beat him up or kill him and take over his harem.
It'd be like if you had five chicks, and I was like "I'm gonna whoop your ass, Will_V, and then your chicks will become mine!" and then that actually happened. Doesn't work that way.
With human polygyny, it is generally a much slower, more careful process of accumulating a first wife, then when a male is wealthier selecting a second one, then when older and wealthier still perhaps a third. But nobody is going to want to come and beat him up for his wives, because the older ones are past their child-bearing primes, and if you're going to attack a guy to get stuff from him, you're probably far better off raiding him for his wealth, then just using that stolen wealth to attract your own young, fresh wives of your own selection.
I don't really know what I will do when my wife/LTR gets older, perhaps I will simply have sex with other women and give her the choice to put up with it (and still receive plenty of quality time and attention) or leave. If she cannot accept the natural course of things well at least I gave her the chance. As it is I believe the entire family/relationship system is quite broken and disfunctional to the point where a man is almost guaranteed to be unhappy if he simply follows it.
Fascinating.
I've toyed with this exact idea -- particularly the morality / responsibility side of it. Etc.
I don't think I've ever discussed it publicly though. First off because I don't think it sounds good (i.e., 'good' as in 'not a complete knave'). Second off, I haven't field tested it, so it'd just be KJ talking about it at this point.
Yet here you are, voicing my unvoiced thoughts.
Perhaps those forum members are right; you really are me!
I will reflect on your point about whether locking her in has the opposite effect (or vice versa). Against the backdrop of a disfunctional system, what would otherwise work might not, and what seems like it wouldn't work, might conspire to do so. Unfortunately things are just very unstable and difficult to predict in the long term.
That said, I do think that, generally speaking in the online 'conversation' about how men should run their lives, there is a somewhat lackluster and ineffectual attitude toward organizing and maintaining control of LTRs that is masked as some kind of smart or insightful control of one's investment. I don't see any type of successful organisation of any kind that runs well with a captain who is ready to jump ship, and I don't believe it works well here either. I know you have a thoughtful position on this sort of thing, and you try to balance responsibility for outcome with avoiding over investment. This is something that I'm actively studying right now as I have started to consider what I will do in the next phase of my life.
I don't recommend reduced control as a means to reduce one's own investment, no.
That just sounds like skittishness / fear of commitment from guys who've probably been burned (or fear it).
Keeping themselves one foot out of the relationship so they won't get hurt as badly if it crashes and burns.
Doesn't sound like these are men terribly confident in their relationship management abilities...
@FunGuy,
As someone who is LTR oriented, the bolded part is scary AF. Is there a way to screen out chicks who are susceptible to that type of behavior?
Most folks are, sooner or later.
Yes, it's simple to screen for:
You look for a girl who is very romantic and also very charming and very clear on what she wants.
Bonus points if she shows you she knows a lot about men and understands male psychology very well.
Romantic tendencies + charm + clarity = a girl who loves to fall in love, has cultivated the ability to attract men to fall in love with, and knows she wants to experience that in-love feeling, usually again and again.
I am also curious about what you mentioned about girls who are logical with good morals, what are some smooth ways to find out if a girl has a strong sense of morals and values
You have to just see how she behaves in moral gray area situations.
If a checkout clerk accidentally gives her too much change, does she sneak it greedily into her purse? Does she feel awkward but not want to cause a fuss so she just accepts it? Or does she return the excess change? I have known women who would semi-scold the cashier ("You gave me too much change!"), but not in a mean way -- it might sound/look rude, but her being honest and even annoyed at the breach in correct behavior is a sign she wants things done in the 'right' way.
As you get to know a woman, you will discover what things in life she has clear morals/rules around and what things she doesn't.
For a bit of a shortcut, you can also play Strawberry Fields:
Corky was asking for other games besides the Three Favorite Animals game and the Cube. There are two others I used to know; one I forgot, because I never really used it, but it was about having a girl imagine herself in a room that's all white... something to do with death. Dunno. Anyway, the...
www.skilledseducer.com
Her answer to the "What do you say to the Farmer?" question is revealing, and in my experience pretty applicable to how she'd feel to someone she was running around on having an affair behind the back of.
The most hilarious (and honest) answer I ever got from a girl for that one was, "Ugh, who CARES about him?" which ended up being dead-on to her general attitude toward lovers and partners, despite her being a very affectionate gal.
@moom,
I am happy to hear it
Chase
www.businessinsider.com
