Socializing How to defend yourself against extremely witty, fast, “talk-over” guys in SOCIAL CIRCLE

[Bad_Decisions]

OP's frame is off.

These guys aren't competition, they are clowns. So do not treat them as competition. Treat them as the clowns they are. You are the king sittinng with the queen and this loser is the gester trying to get social acceptance.

The alternative is to look at them with the predatory smile and say "heh, is'nt he funny? he's so funny"

The gay angle works too.

The end goal is to accept the reality (and I say accept because if you have true value, he is) that these guys are just looking for acceptance and validation. They are the guy that read MM and decided to learn a bunch of magic tricks.

 

[DarkKnight]

@Gladiator is on point. Young guys don't understand non reactivity and blah blah.

Personally if someone is bold enough to publicly provoke me over and over I would get in his face. All this bullshit about the social environment is too much worrying. People are not blind when they see someone provoking you over and over they know it is disrespect.

Guys like this are cowards EACH TIME I got into such a guys face and basically "showed them the error of their ways", they crumble.

Guys like this make assumptions that you wont retaliate and that bullshit about just being a joke, double down when they do that dont pull back. Just tell them you dont appreciate their jokes and you are losing your patience

These guys also make assumptions that their social group will protect them. So you need to get them to lose that idea.

What I hate most about these sons of bitches is that they are always "on" with amogging and annoying. They are distracting you from whatever the fuck they are doing and you are simply not in amog mode. It is not just that these guys are very witty, it is they are already in hostile mode. While you are in neutral mode.

 

[Kaida]

@DarkKnight That whole post is bars bro

What I hate most about these sons of bitches is that they are always "on" with amogging and annoying. They are distracting you from whatever the fuck they are doing and you are simply not in amog mode. It is not just that these guys are very witty, it is they are already in hostile mode. While you are in neutral mode.

Exactly.

These guys also make assumptions that their social group will protect them. So you need to get them to lose that idea.

Isn't that true to an extent though? Especially if you're uncalibrated in how you retailiate I feel like the social group may step in to protect him.

I also think that even if you threaten a guy like this, after he's done cowering he'll just regain confidence and start doing it again. And at that point you 100% have to beat his ass, threats wont work anymore.

 

[DarkKnight]

Isn't that true to an extent though? Especially if you're uncalibrated in how you retailiate I feel like the social group may step in to protect him.

It is true, but I am not going to let some guy publicly diss me. But I can take the heat, can you? This is also the reason why I also dislike social circled which are not my own ESPECIALLY when those guys notice yoy are good with girls.

I also think that even if you threaten a guy like this, after he's done cowering he'll just regain confidence and start doing it again.

Nope. when they know you are very serious and they also know that you can snap at any moment even in the future of you made that clear then it will end there and then because these guys tend to be talkers not fighters. And yes this is thoroughly field tested by me. But the thing is I am usually not bluffing, when I am fed up.

My biggest lesson at one point was "move faster" as in show less patienxe when such a guy pops up.

BUT YES THIS IS GOING TO BE AN ISSUE IF YOU WANT TO BELONG TO HIS SOCIAL CIRCLE.

But assuming you are a guy with good cold approach skills just build your own. I tend to run circles around these morons and yes again very field tested.

 

[Conquistador]

Just remember that college isn’t HS.

Isn't that true to an extent though? Especially if you're uncalibrated in how you retailiate I feel like the social group may step in to protect him.

Ime a lot depends on 1) how much they like and value him (typically not a lot) 2) your personal aura and frame hardness 3) your status — roughly in that order.

I also think that even if you threaten a guy like this, after he's done cowering he'll just regain confidence and start doing it again. And at that point you 100% have to beat his ass, threats wont work anymore.

Don’t make threats you’re not 100% ready to follow through on. Also, I wouldn’t recommend ever fighting in college.

 

[Zoro]

I've known such guys. They're not sexual threats.

Their goal in the group is to get attention and bring down value of guys who they see as sexual threats. So, you treat them as "Silly & Cute".

@Skills gave an excellent example.. treating them like gays.. I'd take the same route or I'd snap at them like I snap at little kids or treat them as non-masculine with those mom jokes, like I mentioned above. (Imagine two adults talking in a party and kids come running to them asking for something.. then the man would say to the kid.. No, I'm busy talking to X.. go play with Johnny.. I'll come in sometime - that's the frame you need to have)

Reason I also suggested to totally ignore them is cos it's just a waste of your time. Every now and then I run into such guys in different social circles but I don't have time to deal with their bullshit while I can be having fun or talking to some chics.

I agree with Gladiators takes here.

I used to deal with similar things in high school. The guys do this because they see you as a threat or are jealous. You already won. Don't stoop to their level and play their game.

Why are we breaking down each other, when we could be building something? That is my way of thinking. I cut people like that out of my life completely.

There is another type of person, who instead of throwing shade and bringing you down, they throw you opportunities and lift you up. There are people who can get girls on their own so they help you get yours, have legitimate skills and confidence in themselves and react to other people's greatness in healthy ways, and are a genuine value to people.

If that's who are, then you attract the same type. High value attracts high value. Low value fights low value. High value doesn’t waste time on low value.

 

[Kaida]

Why are we breaking down each other, when we could be building something? That is my way of thinking. I cut people like that out of my life completely.

+111111

When someone gets status or power in a group it really reveals their true character.

I notice that whenever I have status in a group I tend to bring the good vibes, make sure everyone feels respected, include people etc.

I feel like I’m too trusting as well. When I see other guys im cool with gaming I dont AMOG or interrupt unless the girls obviously uncomfortable. But the last few days have shown me that those same guys will turn around and amog you when you’re gaming a girl. Its crazy.

If that's who are, then you attract the same type. High value attracts high value. Low value fights low value. High value doesn’t waste time on low value.

100%

 

[Kaida]

But assuming you are a guy with good cold approach skills just build your own. I tend to run circles around these morons and yes again very field tested.

HMM! Never thought of that. I have no idea how to do that though. I definitely could

With guys I have made a shit ton of friends around campus by just cold approaching them and complimenting them on something they’ve worked for. I literally cannot take a five minute walk without guys dapping me up now, so I’m popular with the dudes. Even the guys in the current social cirlce respect me a lot, so if I need to I can steal them.



With the girls, not as much. I’m sure that when building a social circle you need a lot of girls to lure the guys in.

I’m still a big beginner when it comes to approaching women so I have a good amount of rejections. I’m sure those girls still respect me though.

How should i build my social circle?

 

[Zoro]

How should i build my social circle?

Keep your goals and values in mind.

The social circles I've been a part of that I enjoyed most were not made for the sake of just building a social circle. They resulted in wanting to build something, and bringing like minded people into it.

 

[POB]

It all comes down to how much you value your reputation with that group.
If you value it a lot, you probably want to diffuse animosity by completely ignoring them or putting them in their place with the ur gay or shut up kid play. If you don't, you can use the @DarkKnight more physical and confrontational route to shut it down for good.

Either way, I never paid attention to such things, even when I was growing up.
Was too busy doing my own stuff.

 

[DarkKnight]

@POB I agree with you and Wick that ignoring clowns is best route. Unfortunately sometimes you are stuck with them and young people tend to be not suave and calibrated enough to understand that they are ignored from a position of strength. They tend to get frustrated when you ignore them but ALSO MORE BOLD. Not everyone understands our patience is patience. Only patient people understand patience, others see it as weakness and it can quickly become blood in the water. This is the biggest mistake of the civilized person.. expecting civilized behavior in return.

So they keep making increasingly uncalibrated moves. I have baited guys by being patient so they get reckless and swing a bit too wide and overt, so I can place a good counter and keep the moral highground. But in general.. I lack patience, when I have tactical room with no significant fallout I just act. Nobody has the right to annoy me while I am going about my day.

 

[POB]

@DarkKnight I'll give an example.

In my third or fourth year at college, there was this girl who was all over me
She was not ugly, but not that pretty too, and totally uncalibrated
(I don't know why, I ALWAYS attract that awkward stalker type...but I digress)
When guys found out, they were all the place with the jokes
I simply ignored them
Went straight to her and told I simply had no feelings towards her, case closed

Fast forward twenty years, we are all over 40 now, and in the rare occasions we meet that joke is still there.
Now picture the love life of regular middle aged Johns...kids, divorce, alimony, beer belly, and a new gf, maybe a HB6/7, maybe 2-3 years younger than them (if not the same age).

Meanwhile I'm free, triple digit lay count under my belt, big, muscular, and still able to attract and bed chicks in their early 20s.
Who is better?

It's just not worthy it man.
Especially when you are young, you should never waste time or energy with meaningless stuff from peasants.
Let them have their small victories in their heads....who cares?

 

[DarkKnight]

Well I cared. I figure Kaida cares because he makes this post.

You know where you guys and I differ? You see everything as one lose interaction, but when you are stuck in a social circle patterns will happen. And if you allow guys to pick on you with impunity , it will happen. Not everything is "game". And yeah if I see a clown only once it is easy to disregard or if he tries once or twice and then gives up. But people who put a mark on you wont be dissuaded, so you are going along your day good vibes and out of the blue amog appears with his life mission of embarassing you. Such people DO exist. And this is, if I am not wrong, what OP is experiencing.

How come each time I let amogs continue they become bolder and how come when I put them in place brutally the bullshit ends real fast?

I do not want to clash too much with you guys but sometimes it feels like you are all too theoretical but dont really picture the current scenario.

Anyway @Kaida can field test this for us. Kaida keep taking the "higher road" while this guy tries to pick on you and report back to us how it worked out

The romans have a saying. "If you want peace prepare for war". In other words when others know you are prepared to retaliate effectively they wont harass you.

 

[James Cruse]

Every so often I meet certain guys that I simply cannot compete with on comebacks. Even though I’m a decently witty guy. (Edit: This is a social circle / group setting with girls around.)

The whole issue you have is said right here - “you can’t compete on comebacks” is a very unhelpful frame to be in.

All he’s doing is imposing his own frames on you and the rest of the people with you, including the women.

Now you, having all of this seduction information, can easily see the frames he’s trying to set and what his goal is.

Most people, even guys like this, have a goal to that frame - get a particular girl, dominate the group (to get a girl or start leading the group) but it’s a grandual process where, as you mentioned, they keep progressing.

I read this in a book about a guy’s stories helping people get out of cults awhile ago and it’s applicable here:

When these people intervening in cults SHOW the potential inductees what the end of the line is for that cult, the conclusion and the highest level to the cults, what those people believe at the top, what they’re trying to get you to believe is exposed.

Like, instead of letting the person “slow boil the frog, so it doesn’t jump out” - expose their frame.

“Oh, so you really like this girl brother. (Turn to her) Do you like this guy? I think he wants to get married to you. No? So all this performance was you trying to fuck her? Good chat! Haha”. Then act out some desperate guy trying hard to be funny to get the girl, which is what he is doing. But do it in a funny way.

or you could reframe it like he’s trying desperately hard to get your approval:

“Thanks mate, I didn’t know you admired my physique like that. Thanks mate. I can take you to the gym and we’ll get a workout for you and maybe in 3-4 years - you could look like this . . . I know your mum loves it hahahah, just kidding (slap him on the back).” - this equals totally cucked, but desexualised in a nice + abit of fun at the end.

OR

“You must have been sitting there all day with your cartoons trying to fund the right one, thanks for the compliment about the physique man. This cartoon alien thing looks like a fetish though - what other cartoons do you jack it to? Hahaha. You probably have a treasure trove of those cartoons in there hahaha. You’re funny mate, bless your heart”
= Totally de-sexualised in a funny way but also has you nicely giving him approval, reframing him and you look fun and giving him approval and he looks desperatex weird and sad without you having to say it.

Expose his frames but make it funny. Don’t say, “Yeah, nice frame but it’s really in bad faith”. Show his frame indirectly and neutralise it and make it in good humour, playfully and without spite.

Then impose your own frames on the group and the girl you like.

Ps,
People who say or write the word “wit” or “witty” in current day vernacular sounds low-value and weird.

 

[James Cruse]

"Look at this chicken that can't even bet. BAWK BAWK."
I just laugh and say 'keep on talking shit and this chicken gonna take all your chips and bawk bawk you the fuck out the table'.
And he just kinda weakly said man don't take my chips.

I don’t think that’s a great example of a response - it sounds like you’re butthurt, emotionally affected and you acknowledged that when you said “talking shit”.

Just IMPLY a frame and make it funny when you do, without saying it with fear or weakness.

Stop trying to “compete” with these dudes and simply refuse to acknowledge their existence.

I agree with this - like I said in my other message, you really shouldn’t need to compete or get in that frame.

Expose his frame in a funny way, cut him off at the knees, then dismiss him and continue what you came to do.

"Keep on talkin and you bout to get yo ass beat by a ugly ass minion (while smiling)"

that’s abit too passive-aggressive and even if you’re being fun, looks really weakly threatening.

“I love minions bro, thanks for saying my muscles are that big. You look like you have a treasure trove of roided up cartoons bro, anime’s cool. Is this your way of coming out of the closet to us with these homo-erotic cartoons lol? C’mon, closets are made for hanging clothes, just come on outWe love you mate”

Take all of the positive’s from it > then make fun of the rest for him while not being direct.

If I don't like someone's behavior or someone in general, I don't talk to them and completely ignore them. It may come across rude but if he talks to me in a group setting, I can simply look through him without uttering a word or even making a tiny facial expression. I don't give them any time of my day.

I think it’s alot easier to get ahead of that behaviour when it starts. I used to have guys I worked with that would be threatened by me and try this when I first started working there but when you easily find their frame and make PUNISHING frames back, trojan horsed in funny jokes, trust me, they don’t try it again.

Then you become the leader that they look up to, rather than someone who’s going to be your enemy.

Guy: blah blah blah
- Everyone: laughs
-You: You know what I would really appreciate if you don’t joke about XY with me again. I am not butt hurt but I just don’t like these jokes.I know you are kidding

- Everyone: come on don’t be so serious.

-You: I am not serious… I just don’t like this kind of jokes

You might not be winning in this situation, but in the long term, you will win. He will definitely stop joking with you. Win for you as no one will be laughing at you.

I’ve seen guys in real life do this - it doesn’t work. No-one wants to be friends with them and they get ostracised.

You saying and qualifying that you’re NOT butthurt means you actually are. This is like “taking your ball and going home” and it’s not socially graceful, it’s not fun or clever and it won’t work anyway, not from my experience. Have you actually tried this and it’s worked?

- Suck my dick (with an unamused face)
- Your mom tells me I'm good though (with an I don't believe you look)
- Last night your mom told me you've still not grown up

-- for that minion joke above, you could use the same.. you could've said- your mom said she likes minions.. so cute (with a shit eating grin)

The mum jokes are funny to me but it all sounds butthurt and not socially graceful.

Just find some way to jab back with a minimum of effort.

'Look who's talking!'

'Show me your arms man' do a bicep curl next to him 'dude you should totally armwrestle me I think you'd win, you'd flatten me!'

Finally someone mentions re-framing. Exactly this - reframe him on one of your strengths, this just neutralises him.

Turn it into a win for you - like I’ve said in other posts: if a guy in a group is really popular and you outframe hin - that Social proof transfers to you + more. Always do it in a funny self-amusing way - without spite & bitterness or even a whisper of being butthurt.

I'd take the same route or I'd snap at them like I snap at little kids or treat them as non-masculine with those mom jokes, like I mentioned above. (Imagine two adults talking in a party and kids come running to them asking for something.. then the man would say to the kid.. No, I'm busy talking to X.. go play with Johnny.. I'll come in sometime - that's the frame you need to have)

You can really only use this to ignore them when they first start talking. If they continue and don’t fall into that frame and others are listening, you do need to neutralise them before dismissing them and moving on.

Guys like this make assumptions that you wont retaliate and that bullshit about just being a joke, double down when they do that dont pull back. Just tell them you dont appreciate their jokes and you are losing your patience

Again, this just seems butthurt and really not fun.

Turn whatever this guy says into a joke machine for you to springboard your own fun, while destroying his frames and you and everyone else can have a laugh out of it without even getting near a physical confrontation. Why risk it or need to go near. Just treat him like he’s setting up jokes for you - but the jokes are all on him.

also think that even if you threaten a guy like this, after he's done cowering he'll just regain confidence and start doing it again. And at that point you 100% have to beat his ass, threats wont work anymore.

No no no, that’s a great way to go to jail or just have charges and lose jobs/lack of travel.
Don’t do that and provoke or start a physical or verbal fight - just be more clever and shut down his frames and have fun doing it with jokes.

My overall point is: see this as an opportunity to have fun making jokes while destroying this guys frames, which then steals his Social Proof, puts you at the top of that social circle, while you and everyone else has a laugh and this guy looks terrible but if you’re funny and indirect, he won’t confront or want to fight you. It also warns other guys that you’ll do the same to them if they try it on - you’ll destroy them in a fun and non-confrontational way then move on.

But you and everyone ELSE wins this way.