How would you handle this ultimatum?

[Jan]

"If we are going to have sex tonight, I'm not gonna see you again."

I have heard this few times already. Her frame here is something like - if you are going to push for sex tonight, I will treat you as a lover and won't see you again. Or you can slow down, and I will treat you as a boyfriend candidate. It seems like a frame battle inside her head to me.

What would you answer?

I'm thinking that what she is really doing is that she is protecting herself from future disappointment. It's not that she is not willing to see me again if we have sex tonight, it's just she wants to hear FROM ME that I'm not going to dump her if she gives it away tonight.

I'm thinking about something like this as an answer:

"Of course we gonna see each other again. I'm having good time with you and you're a lovely girl, so why not seeing each other again especially if sex is good?"

 

[StrayDog]

I would start with gathering more info from her. as in "what makes you say that?"

figure out where she is coming from first, before you throw down frames.

"Of course we gonna see each other again. I'm having good time with you and you're a lovely girl, so why not seeing each other again especially if sex is good?

this just comes across as trying to convince her. I might say something like this, if it is calibrated to what she told me, but I would be more like "oh I could understand how you might feel that way. I mean, if the sex is good I am not sure why we wouldn't. but I can understand not wanting to feel used by someone". I'm not trying to convince her. I'm just relating to what she says, and reframing things. but again, this is based on what she has told me. so get curious about what she is saying before you start trying to reframe

 

[StrayDog]

then maybe we could get into a convo on what exactly constitutes good sex, that way she can feel comfortable that we will actually have good sex, and therefore feel compelled to see each other again.

I am curious at what stage you are getting this. because if it is LMR than you probably skipped a step before hand. hence the objection.

 

[Jan]

I got this twice at pull attempt and once as lmr

 

[StrayDog]

yeah sounds like you are skipping a step. something about how you're running the interaction is causing her to second guess the connection

 

[Jan]

yeah sounds like you are skipping a step. something about how you're running the interaction is causing her to second guess the connection

which step?

 

[theReason]

"If we are going to have sex tonight, I'm not gonna see you again."

It sounds like she’s saying she suspects you might get emotionally attached.

As if you’re running an… appropriately fast-paced game but with a kind-hearted soft-hearted vibe.

Like, she’s saying “I don’t wanna hurt you.”

She is also softly implying that she suspects you will be a bad lay because of the vibe you’re giving off.

It’s not a time to get so kind-hearted and equanimical with your response, instead you should be a little more of a dick.

Just address her concern directly and say “I’m not going to get emotionally attached if you don’t.”

 

[StrayDog]

it happens, but don't start trying to convince her. take step back and investigate why she feels that way

 

[StrayDog]

which step?

well,maybe describe one of these dates and we can see if we can figure that out

 

[StrayDog]

but I imagine it has to do with the comfort building stage. she is aware that sex is on the table, but she is not comfortable with the idea of you two going there.

 

[StrayDog]

It sounds like she’s saying she suspects you might get emotionally attached.

As if you’re running an… appropriately fast-paced game but with a kind-hearted soft-hearted vibe.

Like, she’s saying “I don’t wanna hurt you.”

She is also softly implying that she suspects you will be a bad lay because of the vibe you’re giving off.

It’s not a time to get so kind-hearted and equanimical with your response, instead you should be a little more of a dick.

Just address her concern directly and say “I’m not going to get emotionally attached if you don’t.”

there are a lot of assumptions being made here about what this woman is throwing down. she COULD be implying all that stuff, she also COULD be implying that she feels that he is just going to pump and dump.

better to gather Intel before making a move.

 

[StrayDog]

there are a lot of assumptions being made here about what this woman is throwing down. she COULD be implying all that stuff, she also COULD be implying that she feels that he is just going to pump and dump.

better to gather Intel before making a move.

and either way, still a comfort issue. she is either not comfortable with the idea me might become clingy, or not comfortable with the idea he might be too cold.

 

[topcat]

Keep it simple and reverse the frame.

“hey well I’m not gunna force you to see me again if decide you don’t want to “

 

[StrayDog]

Keep it simple and reverse the frame.

“hey well I’m not gunna force you to see me again if decide you don’t want to “

or maybe just do what top cat says. this kind of just addresses any which way

 

[Jan]

@StrayDog

One of these interactions I described here:

"If we do it now, it's gonna be just a one-off thing."

I met this girl on Tinder, and a long story short I fucked her in a suburbs forest on our first date, after about 2 hours into the date. I'm mid 30s, she is 19. It was clear from the get go that this relationship is gonna be about sex, as during our Tinder convo I told her: "Hey, I'm looking for...

www.skilledseducer.com

Another one here:

FR - Can I trust her?

I met this chick in a club, on Friday two weeks ago. I approached her in a busy crowd near a bar. We connected physicially immediately. We had a drink together, danced, talked. When we talked I made a huge mistake which I regret. I told her that I'm looking for a long term relationship and that...

www.skilledseducer.com

And the third one was a Tinder girl. Initially we were supposed to meet downtown, but she said that her train was cancelled so I offered to pick her up from her place and go downtown together. When I arrived I needed to take a piss, so I asked if I can do it at her place. I went in, and since I was already in her apartment I decided to run it from there. We sat on the sofa, had tea, talked for about 30-45, then I started to escalate on her physically. We kissed, then we moved to bed to watch a movie. And basically this ultimatum happened when I was trying to undress her, in her bed.

 

[KJ Francis]

Did you do much deep diving? Sounds like she does not feel you are attainable and will pump and dump her.

In terms of which step was missed as discussed above, that would start with A3, which is male-to-female interest and is centered on qualification: "make her feel special" to counteract the fuckboy vibes. Without that, she does not know if or why you like her as a person specifically. If she feels you like her specifically and not just her body, then you're more attainable and less risk to her of pump and dump.

This extends further into the mid-game comfort building as well. Maybe more time eliciting her values and building similarity could help. It's the subconscious fear of being impregnated and left for dead without your protection.

 

[KJ Francis]

And the third one was a Tinder girl. Initially we were supposed to meet downtown, but she said that her train was cancelled so I offered to pick her up from her place and go downtown together. When I arrived I need to take a piss, so I asked if I can do it at her place. I got it, and since I was already in her apartment I decided to run it from there. We sat on the sofa, had tea, talked for about 30-45, then I started to escalate on her physically. We kissed, then we moved to bed to watch a movie. And basically this ultimatum happened when I was trying to undress her, in her bed.

Awesome date template lol I've done this too. I spent extra time on comfort though. It was probably more like an hour or two before ramping up the escalation.

LR - The Week in Review

This week... Sunday: third meet with late 40's devout Catholic with strong internal frame I'm not bothering to address. second nude makeout at her place, this time with extended fingering. Monday: first ever double-lay in a day (both repeats) Tuesday: crickets Wednesday: the usual backseat...

www.skilledseducer.com

In that case she has never experienced you outside of one location for a very short time. It might have simply been too fast in your tinder case. My case was heavy deep diving over a longer period, but keeping a nonverbal vibe up like "sex is inevitable".

Maximizing time distortion could help. Like the 3-bounce date. If you are already in isolation, I personally would not want to go backwards and leave her place. But the more you switch seats, rooms, etc., the more her memories vary. This and deep diving will maximize the feeling like she's known you longer and feels more connection.

 

[StrayDog]

@StrayDog

One of these interactions I described here:

"If we do it now, it's gonna be just a one-off thing."

I met this girl on Tinder, and a long story short I fucked her in a suburbs forest on our first date, after about 2 hours into the date. I'm mid 30s, she is 19. It was clear from the get go that this relationship is gonna be about sex, as during our Tinder convo I told her: "Hey, I'm looking for...

www.skilledseducer.com

Another one here:

FR - Can I trust her?

I met this chick in a club, on Friday two weeks ago. I approached her in a busy crowd near a bar. We connected physicially immediately. We had a drink together, danced, talked. When we talked I made a huge mistake which I regret. I told her that I'm looking for a long term relationship and that...

www.skilledseducer.com

And the third one was a Tinder girl. Initially we were supposed to meet downtown, but she said that her train was cancelled so I offered to pick her up from her place and go downtown together. When I arrived I needed to take a piss, so I asked if I can do it at her place. I went in, and since I was already in her apartment I decided to run it from there. We sat on the sofa, had tea, talked for about 30-45, then I started to escalate on her physically. We kissed, then we moved to bed to watch a movie. And basically this ultimatum happened when I was trying to undress her, in her bed.

okay, so Chase addressed it all pretty much on that first report. Basically what I was throwing down here. gathering Intel, building comfort, setting proper frames (in this case, laid back no pressure, we don't have to get too attached cans still be fun)

second report Tominho says it well that you are setting bad lover frames. more so boyfriend frames. so you are coming across as incongruent when you gun for fast sex. this makes her feel uncomfortable with your intentions.

So two slightly different scenarios producing same objection.

With the first girl you're trouble was that she doesn't want a clinger. topcats line can probably work really well here

second girl was that she she didn't trust your intentions. topcats line probably not as much here, because context and bad precedent.

I rule of thumb I have that seems to work well when I am unsure of what's behind an objections, or I don't have a super quick response, is just to do less and investigate.

it's easy to get caught up in this feeling like you have to make a right move, or say the right thing. but often just kicking back and letting things unfold is much more advantageous.

 

[StrayDog]

Awesome date template lol I've done this too. I spent extra time on comfort though. It was probably more like an hour or two before ramping up the escalation.

LR - The Week in Review

This week... Sunday: third meet with late 40's devout Catholic with strong internal frame I'm not bothering to address. second nude makeout at her place, this time with extended fingering. Monday: first ever double-lay in a day (both repeats) Tuesday: crickets Wednesday: the usual backseat...

www.skilledseducer.com

In that case she has never experienced you outside of one location for a very short time. It might have simply been too fast in your tinder case. My case was heavy deep diving over a longer period, but keeping a nonverbal vibe up like "sex is inevitable".

Maximizing time distortion could help. Like the 3-bounce date. If you are already in isolation, I personally would not want to go backwards and leave her place. But the more you switch seats, rooms, etc., the more her memories vary. This and deep diving will maximize the feeling like she's known you longer and feels more connection.

yeah, unless she is DTF you have to run this like any other date. just because you're in her place doesn't mean you can skip steps. honestly, sometimes the move IS to leave her place. but you want to do it SOON, like 5 minutes. just hanging out in a tiny apartment can sometimes feel stagnate if you re need to build momentum. so it's kind of like the first bounce in a three bounce. and since you have already been at her place the pull has been seeded.

in Jans case here it seems like there was still some decent momentum using just one location (her place). but skipped steps during deep dive. escalated too soon

 

[TomInHo]

"If we are going to have sex tonight, I'm not gonna see you again."

This could just be her thinking that sex fast means it's only a ONS. Sounds more like a concern than an ultimatum

More digging needs to be done on why she thinks having sex quickly means two people that like each other should not keep things going

Hearing her out and easing her concerns should do the trick

EDIT

Also I read the report you linked and can see why this may be happening

You: "Hey, I'm looking for fun here, you?"
She: "Fun, friendship, whatever."

You are most likely doing boyfriend disqualifiers too aggressively so girls know all you want is sex. They feel no need to keep fucking a guy, if the option to lock him down is not available if they like him later

So she is protecting her self and getting ahead of you because she knows the chances of you pumping and dumping are high.

The trick is to not tell girls you are going to pump and dump. Do not tell girls "I don't want to be your BF"

Instead be savvy about what you share so that she thinks to herself "He's sexy but he doesn't really seem like he could be a good BF. But he's also cool and easy to get along with so l'll fuck him because why not?"

Don't tell them you plan on pumping and dumping. Make them feel it was their choice to pump and dump you

Read this article by Chase on how to use Boyfriend Disqualifiers properly