I freaking hate Kino!!! Can I move past it?

[Shake&Bake]

I'm so sick people doing all this stupid talk about Kino. It's basically their way of saying this is the bread and butter of seduction. But I can't stand it.

Kino doesn't freaking work for me. And it always makes an interaction worst and it makes me question my whole existence. I usually don't prefer doing it and I gave up on it entirely because it always makes girls on guard which kills me.

I usually just stick to chatting. I don't know if there is a correct way to get a girl turned on through words so I guess I'll just wait till I'm hot enough to ask them to come home or go on a date

Is there a particular way for me to move past Kino and still be successful. It doesn't work for me.

 

[Space]

Dunno what type of kino do you do.

This is how to do it properly and I'm loving it.

 

[Shake&Bake]

Dunno what type of kino do you do.

This is how to do it properly and I'm loving it.

Girls just don't react well. I usually don't go for the higher level ones like touching on the thighs unless we are like alone but surface level touching doesn't go well

 

[Grand Pooba]

You're probably doing it too aggressively, which is causing ASD.

Try incidental contact instead.

 

[Skills]

I'm so sick people doing all this stupid talk about Kino. It's basically their way of saying this is the bread and butter of seduction. But I can't stand it.

Kino doesn't freaking work for me. And it always makes an interaction worst and it makes me question my whole existence. I usually don't prefer doing it and I gave up on it entirely because it always makes girls on guard which kills me.

I usually just stick to chatting. I don't know if there is a correct way to get a girl turned on through words so I guess I'll just wait till I'm hot enough to ask them to come home or go on a date

Is there a particular way for me to move past Kino and still be successful. It doesn't work for me.

your post is very vague, and full of negativity... "kino does not work for me" has worked for all mandkind for millions of years from cavemen to now...

You need to do some type of journal were you describe your kino/escalations what are you doing, how are you doing it and the most important part of kino is TIMING, kino performed correctly at the wrong point of any interaction could fuck it up, no matter how good you are..... the video posted by space is excellent, keep in mind is an old video, the right way to kino is always protecting the girl social proof, going for mini micro escalations and calibrating to the women reactions, 2 steps back one forward, is a good general guideline, keeping the sexual tension without raising it too high then crashing it..... you need to be also extremely confident and comfortable, do not wait to be with a target to kino, kino all the time everybody even dudes (no homo of course), so you can get comfortable touching till it becomes natural.... If you can describe a bit of your fail attemps that would be nice to, make sure you describe the timing, scenario etc...

the "kino does not work" proclamation is counter productive.... The day you are able to fuck a girl without saying a word like many guys in the forum including me have done multiple times will be one of he coolest things you will accomplished..

https://60yearsofchallenge.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/secrets-of-micro-escalation-vibe.pdf

I suggest you study 60 yoc, gambler, steve jabba, gll(just be carefull with gll, leave him for last he is a bit to aggressive for the time) and yes again that video space posted..

 

[Shake&Bake]

You're probably doing it too aggressively, which is causing ASD.

Try incidental contact instead.

I've already tried incidental touching. I might be able to get away with it like twice but not 3 times

 

[Shake&Bake]

your post is very vague, and full of negativity... "kino does not work for me" has worked for all mandkind for millions of years from cavemen to now...

You need to do some type of journal were you describe your kino/escalations what are you doing, how are you doing it and the most important part of kino is TIMING, kino performed correctly at the wrong point of any interaction could fuck it up, no matter how good you are..... the video posted by space is excellent, keep in mind is an old video, the right way to kino is always protecting the girl social proof, going for mini micro escalations and calibrating to the women reactions, 2 steps back one forward, is a good general guideline, keeping the sexual tension without raising it too high then crashing it..... you need to be also extremely confident and comfortable, do not wait to be with a target to kino, kino all the time everybody even dudes (no homo of course), so you can get comfortable touching till it becomes natural.... If you can describe a bit of your fail attemps that would be nice to, make sure you describe the timing, scenario etc...

the "kino does not work" proclamation is counter productive.... The day you are able to fuck a girl without saying a word like many guys in the forum including me have done multiple times will be one of he coolest things you will accomplished..

https://60yearsofchallenge.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/secrets-of-micro-escalation-vibe.pdf

I suggest you study 60 yoc, gambler, steve jabba, gll(just be carefull with gll, leave him for last he is a bit to aggressive for the time) and yes again that video space posted..

It's just insanely complicated.... I just avoid it now since it's counterproductive to me. Girls always making a scene when they get touched so I just don't touch them anymore. I just rely more on speaking.

Also I do alot of daygame compared to night game

 

[flatron]

I don't think you 'need' to do it, but it's a nice way to show intent and also test for compliance.
You say it doesn't 'work' - it's not some magical way to make a girl attracted to you. That doesn't actually exist, i'm afraid! lol (no amount of 'game' can force attraction in a girl)
If she's not attracted to you/you're not her type, she will always stop you at the point where it 'crosses the line' in her head (even if you follow something like the dicarlo ladder, there will always be a point where it crosses the line and she's uncomfortable with it no matter how incrementally you do it)
JulienRSD had lots of infields where he barely touched the girl, though. So it's not like it's a complete necessity. You can usually tell if she's attracted, and also sexualise the convo without touch, tbh
If she's not receptive to even incidental touch and stuff, just move on. She's not into you and there's nothing you can do about that
Also, if you mainly do daygame, i'd veer even more to the side of not being too touchy, tbh.

 

[Hue]

If any sort of touch is repelling women it may be your vibe.

What are you doing to come off as warm and friendly?

I struggled with Kino last year, actually, at the bar I worked at. It was frustrating for me because the very same girls that would sternly say "don't touch me" would then come and grab my arms or chest in the same shift. Maddening, at first, but then I realized that some of the girls I work with had their guard up around me. When there guard was down, they'd come to me, but when it was up, I had a lot of limitations in flirting.

I kept trying, observing, and adjusting though. I didn't throw my hands up like "what's all this kino business?! I tried it and it's bullshit!".


At my current job (almost a year later) I'm much warmer and the girls are 10X more receptive to me. That said, I still run into this one hostess (fucking stunner) going, "why are you touching me?" with a bit of a growl every now and then. I back off and then tease her about her attitude in the nicest way possible and eventually she'll come around and start acting friendly to me again.


The point is, you have to be friendly enough with them that they don't have their walls up around you. Otherwise, the kino can come off as a physical attack to their space. Their limbic system perceives it as a threat, and you don't want that. If you're timing the kino to come after you've hooked a girl / established enough report, your touch is an enhancement to an already positive experience. When you've got the girl enjoying herself around you, kino works to make the connection between you two even stronger.

It's not that complicated.

Once you change that in yourself, then start using incidental touch, and then move onto escalating touch as you progress.


Hue

 

[Grand Pooba]

It's just insanely complicated.... I just avoid it now since it's counterproductive to me. Girls always making a scene when they get touched so I just don't touch them anymore. I just rely more on speaking.

Also I do alot of daygame compared to night game

I really need to witness this but it sounds like your vibe + touch is creeping girls out, and you're probably just being way too aggressive.

Incidental touch works but remember that you really don't need to do it more than twice - just do it and hold, and that's usually enough.

Touch requires a lot of calibration.

 

[Shake&Bake]

I really need to witness this but it sounds like your vibe + touch is creeping girls out, and you're probably just being way too aggressive.

Incidental touch works but remember that you really don't need to do it more than twice - just do it and hold, and that's usually enough.

Touch requires a lot of calibration.

I guess I'll keep my touch to one incident each interaction. I usually don't touch girls all that agrressively. I have a hard time believing how guys get a lway with touching girls lower back so most of the time I keep touching to on the shoulders or just the hands

 

[Cody Lyans]

How about this... Instead of saying kino doesn't work, you start saying that you find it tough to get right.
Also... Who says it is the key to all?

I don't emphasize it at all. In fact most girls I like have big personal space issues. I just slowly work through it with hugs, small hand holds, eye contact for extended periods and playfulness like her tickling me or trying to steal my food etc.
I might touch their arm on intro, hand while asking their name, or touch their face or body before a kiss... Like to frame it right.

I never grab grab, or probe touch, or touch without feeling. It's about making her feel great otherwise why do it?

My point, yeah don't touch her shittily, have a standard for touching and learn to touch to that high standard

 

[Glow]

Its a myth and unnuanced conclusion that kino is "needed". We cleaned that out long time ago. Actually the opposite is often better - containing kino to create more sexual tension. But its not a rule either. Just might help provide nuance.

One key thing to learn is that touch naturally follows moments. One route to create moments that generate openings is to verbally introduce topics that gets her the feel and creates a "moment" for her - eg read here https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/seduction-oriented-topics.21690/#post-106270 - You have many great verbal guys in here. use that. Add touch from there or alongside there in good ways as cody outlines.

Another strong route is what skills is showing you with the link to sixty. using your eyes, pauses, proximity and the likes. Escalation starts way before any touch.

Beware certain types of touches are smarter eg stroking and gracing over grabbing. Touch is worth a study in itself.

 

[Shake&Bake]

How about this... Instead of saying kino doesn't work, you start saying that you find it tough to get right.
Also... Who says it is the key to all?

I don't emphasize it at all. In fact most girls I like have big personal space issues. I just slowly work through it with hugs, small hand holds, eye contact for extended periods and playfulness like her tickling me or trying to steal my food etc.
I might touch their arm on intro, hand while asking their name, or touch their face or body before a kiss... Like to frame it right.

I never grab grab, or probe touch, or touch without feeling. It's about making her feel great otherwise why do it?

My point, yeah don't touch her shittily, have a standard for touching and learn to touch to that high standard

I like this answer. If rather keep the touching to the minimum. I'm not accusing people of girlschase to say touching is everything. But I have met a crap ton of seduction outlets that do.

I think I may have heard an article on here that said that if you're not an attractive guy you should be touching alot but if you are hot you should keep touching to a minimum.

But I think that's good. You should especially keep your hands to yourself if you are not hot.

But yeah I think it's better to not touch as much.... Girls are always super on guard about everything so why touch them?

 

[Skills]

Its a myth and unnuanced conclusion that kino is "needed". We cleaned that out long time ago. Actually the opposite is often better - containing kino to create more sexual tension. But its not a rule either. Just might help provide nuance.

One key thing to learn is that touch naturally follows moments. One route to create moments that generate openings is to verbally introduce topics that gets her the feel and creates a "moment" for her - eg read here https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/seduction-oriented-topics.21690/#post-106270 - You have many great verbal guys in here. use that. Add touch from there or alongside there in good ways as cody outlines.

Another strong route is what skills is showing you with the link to sixty. using your eyes, pauses, proximity and the likes. Escalation starts way before any touch.

Beware certain types of touches are smarter eg stroking and gracing over grabbing. Touch is worth a study in itself.

Yea i totally agree that now a days, kino is not even "needed" in a seduction at all... The thing is newer guys do not have that sexual threat vive that most of us have, so the advice for newer guys to kino is so the relationship don't get "platonic" "friendzone"....(men to women rsd call it)

i have had girls not give me anything at all when i try to kino, so i back off totally (new generation of women) then in total isolation go all crazy sexual.

 

[Teevster]

I sympathize with the OP because just like him I never really understood this whole thing with just walking up to her and just "vibe + kino" and get laid. To me it never really worked that way.

There is some truth to the statement, but most people who put it in those simple terms, where usually just bullshitter.

The real truth is, there is so much more to it.

Kino has to be understood in context. Kino does two things:
- Escalates the vibe (probably the most important thing)
- Can create compliance and gain attention points.

Let us discuss the first one: escalating the vibe. You will have to escalate the vibe in order to get laid. At some point you will have to touch her. And the sooner you do it, the better because if you wait too long, it may start feeling weird (both for her and you) to just out of the blue start touching. Get her used to your touch as early as possible, even if it just some basic innocent touch such as touching her should for 3 seconds.

The issue is not this - the issue is that some advocate you just walk up to a girl and truly "ESCALATE" on the girl. This is total bullcrap because those posters are leaving out a tons of key info.
- Kino escalates the vibe IF she is not resisting
- Kino does NOT escalate the vibe IF she is resisting - then it has the opposite effect.

And....
- Kino ups compliance if her current compliance is above a certain treshold - i.e. she is at least CONSIDERING you as a potential sex partner.
- Kino downs compliance if her current compliance level is below a minimal treshold - i.e. you are just another horny dude.


And these defines the context:
- Escalate only as much as to not trigger resistance
- And... escalate only according to her current compliance level


and these contextual factors are almost never discussed. There are here a few strategies you can opt for:
- Numbers game - i.e. go up and caveman girls into you get one that is compliant. This is not something I would recommend. However a more "light" version of this would usually take place where a guy just simply bump into a compliant girl, escalates, get laid and post on forums about how everything is just vibe/inner game and kino
- Screening game, basically have a systematic approach to spot those receptive girls, and perhaps find ways to trigger those signs so that you can easily find those receptive girls. This is a viable approach that is good to learn whether or not you want to actually use such type of game or not, because such type of game also trains you to asses, or at least give you an idea of her current level of compliance to you, so that you know what you will be dealing with (and how far you may push things).
- Build compliance first (social proof, intrigue, push and pull, verbals etc - basically anything that falls under the category of "game") and then escalate RELATIVELY to her displayed level of compliance! We call this "calibration" (I have written a guide about this on the blog - a huge one in fact).

There are ways to get girls without kino - through verbals - in the form of heavy sex talk or heavy hypnotic patterns. But this is considered advanced and requires an almost perfect mastery of verbals. It also does not work well all the time and even the players who favors such approach will sometimes have to touch a girl to seal the deal.

However it is totally in place to touch less, focus more on verbals, and other tools such as eye contact. You can minimize kino if you do not like it, but then you need to compensate with verbals, or eye contact. Which is what I do.

Hope this helps

 

[Space]

@Teevster

The key to kino for me was Chris "60 Years of Challenge". I don't know how much familiar you are with his work. He has a sentence "Milk the introduction." Sexy handshake. Not like with your bros or colleagues but with a more delicate creature. Just hold her hand a little longer. This sets the tone of the interaction. I was also shy/awkward with this in the beginning.

There was much discussion about 60 previously. Many call him a genius. But he is just unable to market his stuff properly so he is somewhat lesser known. He was a member of NextASF. Guys who came from NextASF, don't you want to invite 60 to this forum? Chase reviewed his books

Oh. I put this here because I tend to forget how to do it properly (so many things to remember lol) but when I do it's pretty cool with the girls: Invisible Arousal Mini Course

 

[Teevster]

@Teevster

The key to kino for me was Chris "60 Years of Challenge". I don't know how much familiar you are with his work.

I am VERY familiar with it. I was very fond of his idea of not breaking the tension when she is trying to break it. Truth is when he was active I was a good friend of his and many of the theories on sexual tension were developed together. Now in his original books, you do not see any of my theories or those developed with him (he posted them before we got much in touch) but I did write my responses and commentaries to his ebooks and mASF posts. In my commentaries, together with his help we developed concepts such as "mutual escalation" - and "how to make her touch you" , fractionated touch , as well as introducing the concept of fractionation itself to sexual tension, and the concept about sexual tension as a liminoid bubble. I also wrote a post called anti-manifesto part 2.

In my sexual tension series I talk about all this, including IOM's (it is on moments) - with other variations than his good old "hand holding".

Me and him used to discuss on skype weekly and debated a lot on mASF. I was by no mean the only one jumping on the sexual tension bandwagon. TheCostOfSucesss (Cody Lyans) was equally involved amongst a few others.

He has a sentence "Milk the introduction." Sexy handshake. Not like with your bros or colleagues but with a more delicate creature. Just hold her hand a little longer. This sets the tone of the interaction. I was also shy/awkward with this in the beginning.

Yes I am familiar with this. Another way to milk the intro is to maintain eye contact. Just saying.

The idea with 60's method is that:
- There is an element of numbers game to his game (but not of the extreme sort)
- The numbers game is supposedly minimized by building some mojo through social momentum (he calls it social god mode)
- His opening are rather humble, so that women feel non-threatened...
- Escalate...
- If she resists, you have two options:
1. Create comfort with IOM's (hold her hand and create the "its on moment"
2 Keep escalating till the level of arousal and pleasure raises above the level of discomfort.

There is also a third way which was developed by someone (maybe it was cody) which was "caress and comfort" which was based on caressing her gently in a "it is going to be ok" vibe to create comfort.

The issue with sixty's method is that it does not give you a good ratio. If you face resistance, which you are likely to do, you have very limited tools at your disposal to handle it. Additionally you have very few tools to prevent it. Things like Female State Control are prone to happen with his method.

His method is good but incomplete in my book. For example it only works on women who are at least decently into you from the get go. Now he never lied about being ok to play a bit of the numbers game - which is ok, since his method will either prove to work or fail really quickly. To my own personal taste, I prefer opting for a higher meet-to-lay ratio.

However once your social frame is set, and you have managed to build compliance, and hopefully also managed to isolate her, then sixty's method is just damn gold.

So I am by no means discarding any of his theories (although I find his openers to be shit). I love them and still use them today. But his system is incomplete, however he still have the best material on sexual tension to date. And he surely has great tips on escalation mindsets too.

He just obsessed too much with this aspect of the game and disregarded others. But it is ok, since his obsession lead to amazing material that is still valid today.

There was much discussion about 60 previously. Many call him a genius. But he is just unable to market his stuff properly so he is somewhat lesser known. He was a member of NextASF. Guys who came from NextASF, don't you want to invite 60 to this forum? Chase reviewed his books

https://www.girlschase.com/content/review-60-years-challenges-great-ebook-series

He got along with Chase too. We were a click one may say. I think Sixty is busy handling his familly. He is older than Chase, so I doubt pick up is his priority. But hey if he wanted to join us here, I would love having a few discussions with him. Last time I talked to him was in 2012 I think...

Oh. I put this here because I tend to forget how to do it properly (so many things to remember lol) but when I do it's pretty cool with the girls: Invisible Arousal Mini Course

His ebooks series "the complete system" is by far the best one.

We originally even brainstormed about making a product together...

 

[Tony D]

I like this answer. If rather keep the touching to the minimum. I'm not accusing people of girlschase to say touching is everything. But I have met a crap ton of seduction outlets that do.

I think I may have heard an article on here that said that if you're not an attractive guy you should be touching alot but if you are hot you should keep touching to a minimum.

But I think that's good. You should especially keep your hands to yourself if you are not hot.

But yeah I think it's better to not touch as much.... Girls are always super on guard about everything so why touch them?

If I could reach through this screen and slap you I would.

Basically all men are cars. I fix men. When they say dumb shit like "Touching doesn't work for me" that's like saying "Gas doesn't work in my car." It's like a writer saying "Paragraphs don't work for me," or a dancer saying "Music doesn't work for me."

What you're really saying is "I haven't been validated by women so my self esteem is low. I touched a girl last week and she gave me a funny look which I interpreted as bad, and now I'm going to complain that I'm different and more special than the hundreds of thousands of other men who have learned this stuff, because I'm not good looking like all of them."

I know I sound harsh but I've dealt with hundreds of men in real life bootcamps, and trust me, they can all learn how to use kino effectively. Tall, short, ugly, handsome, fat, bald, black, brown, asian. It doesn't matter.

 

[Space]

Oh. I put this here because I tend to forget how to do it properly (so many things to remember lol) but when I do it's pretty cool with the girls: Invisible Arousal Mini Course

His ebooks series "the complete system" is by far the best one.

Oh. Speaking of the Invisible Arousal Mini Course. It's not Chris, it's a different person.

Valentino (from 5:25 in Denton's video) who was too cool to accept RSD's offer to become their instructor in the first place. So guys coming from the RSD school of thought but may be less crazy if you will.

Last time you gave me a rundown on the generations of pickup (1st, 2nd, and 3rd). Of course quite a few guys I've recently discovered don't fit your categories, but who cares.

Denton (girls Chase writer) argues there is still so much uncharted territory with seduction to be discovered and the new guy who are on the top if it are getting better year after year.

About your long answer regarding Chris 60. I don't understand most of your terminology (don't worry about it), nonetheless that would require a very long answer on my part. But it's too much of an intricate topic "in medias res" and I most effectively could take up the plot at somewhere near the beginning.