If all women don't like you what you do wrong?

[Whiteheart]

There is that mantra: if all women don’t like you it is caused by you. OK, now how can guy evaluate what he does wrong? Simply, women don’t find me attractive no matter what I do. They don’t see what they want in me. Here is statistics data for me:

15% are cold bitches or full of themselves bitches

5% are rude bitches who want to reject me to get some status from her friends

50% are polite, friendly, official, etc., i.e. everything but interested

20% are attention whores

9% are platonic provider seekers that want to exchange flirting for potentially non sexual benefits

1% are super impressed by my personality or conversation and offers me lifelong friendship while sleeping with some asshole and walk off super disappointed how man can’t value such sacred thing like female friendship.

Majority of women I interact don’t hold eye contact with me or are offended by any kind of touch. They would speak with me until Judgment Day without any desire for anything besides conversation. Simply they have that mindset: "You are unworthy of me; I can’t even imagine to be with you unless you take the stars from the sky for me". I suspect they decide from the moment we meet that don’ want me and nothing I do later changes that, in fact they even search for disadvantages in our interaction to support why they don’t want me.

Some background of me: good looking, educated, good job, friendly, kind, ambitious, warm, funny, confident, like reading, sport. Some stereotypical perfect on paper guy.

Some background of women I interacted with: they were different types with mostly average look and personality (especially for achievement and generosity).

I tried every tactic I could find and results were more or less the same. I tried to be authentic, to be myself and don’t push hard for conversation and seduction but then women wouldn’t give a shit about me, I don’t pursue them much and in most cases there isn’t any interaction. Basically, I have average, ordinary women who demand super above attraction from my side and who rejects me for some guy similar to them or if don’t find him rather stay alone.

If my value is problem, please tell me what to do to avoid being written of from the beginning.

If my attainability is problem, please tell me new concepts because being warm person of her type isn’t enough these days and often guys with attainability problem are treated like they have low value.

 

[ulrich]

There seems to be a disconnect here because the way you describe yourself doesn’t match the interactions you are having.
My first thought is that you are probably somewhat socially akward and you are interpreting some slightly negative or neutral signals as utter disinterest.

Quick shutdowns point definitely to a value problem… if it was attainability, you would have girls who love you suddenly and inexplicably going cold… which doesn’t seem to be the case.

Still, you’re giving generalizations which are hard to use to point the problem.
So please answer this:
+ Where are you meeting girls?
+ How does one of your typical approaches look like?
+ Can you give a detailed example of your last “good” interaction?
+ Be really honest, is there something physical/social that you did not mention above? (you seem to be failing right on approach, so there should be something super obvious going on)
+ How would you rate your social skills?

15% are cold bitches or full of themselves bitches

5% are rude bitches who want to reject me to get some status from her friends

20% are attention whores

This is rather problematic.
If 40% of the women you are meeting treat you like trash, there is something definitely wrong going on with your mentality, location and/or approach.

 

[Whiteheart]

There seems to be a disconnect here because the way you describe yourself doesn’t match the interactions you are having.
My first thought is that you are probably somewhat socially akward and you are interpreting some slightly negative or neutral signals as utter disinterest.

Quick shutdowns point definitely to a value problem… if it was attainability, you would have girls who love you suddenly and inexplicably going cold… which doesn’t seem to be the case.

Still, you’re giving generalizations which are hard to use to point the problem.
So please answer this:
+ Where are you meeting girls?
+ How does one of your typical approaches look like?
+ Can you give a detailed example of your last “good” interaction?
+ Be really honest, is there something physical/social that you did not mention above? (you seem to be failing right on approach, so there should be something super obvious going on)
+ How would you rate your social skills?





This is rather problematic.
If 40% of the women you are meeting treat you like trash, there is something definitely wrong going on with your mentality, location and/or approach.

I meet women pretty much everywhere: daygame (parks, bus stations etc), night game (usually when clubs finish and street/parks/beach near club are ideal places) and social circle (college, job, seminars etc.).

Typical approach: open situationally (or I am introduced in social circle), then warm/funny flirting, then personal conversation based on some similarity I found through flirting or cold reads. Then conversation roles filled with different similarity and arousal things and I monitor how it develops and when is the right time to escalate at some point (grab contact info, ask for date, touch, kiss etc.). Often I don’t get escalation window signs and really when I try to escalate anyway it fails. She just wants to talk until Judgment Day.

I had plenty of "good" interactions (about 60% as you saw from numbers) but they are all interactions I get reactions and not results with women. I could tell you few really good interactions when we were alone, enjoying conversation because of similarity, I move her, ask compliance, crack some joke, my mood is good and vibe is horny etc. and after all that she tells me that sees me as a friend. This is the best from me. Second best is when I see her in social circle we flirt, talk, she declines any date and leaves entertained. Then when we meet again accidentally she wants another dose of entertainment and leaves and full circle is closed again and again.

Yes, socially, I came from country X to country Y. Simply girls here are much more bitchier, lazy and dishonest than in previous country. Also, they use/manipulate men here more than in previous country. Not every girl liked me in my previous country but some were. Here, they hear my accent, realize due to origin that can’t manipulate me, see some of my personality traits like (ambition, hard work etc.) which they don’t have due to different mentalities and ditch me very quickly.

I don’t know for social skills, it is never enough of them, especially these days. Male colleagues at work respect me, often I have to deal with difficult people so I developed some "charisma" to solve situations, etc.

Problem it that I saw many women are focused on things they don’t like in me and can’t even imagine to be with me. I had situations that girl reacts good but as soon as I tell something not so interesting she looses every interest. Or situations where everything was perfect and she still didn’t let me to escalate. Simply, they from the beginning decide that don’t want me and everything goes in that direction no matter what I do and no matter if she seems interested (they do this for attention, looking for non-sexual benefits etc. or she is little bit horny but suppresses it at every cost).

 

[Regal Tiger]

This is rather problematic.
If 40% of the women you are meeting treat you like trash, there is something definitely wrong going on with your mentality, location and/or approach.

Definitely want to second this. You can tell from my journals my level of skill isn't all that great in regards to daygame but I'd say my approach stats look something like this:

Less than 1% are just horrible people from the jump

Like 10% are just plain confused

Around 5-10% are happy I approached

The rest are somewhere in the middle of polite/interested/not interested/nice

And I know my approach needs work

Oh, and @uriel I kinda got forced into an approach that I think went well that I'll talk about probably in a day or two. After I know what'll happen with the date (like if it's going to happen or not)

 

[TomInHo]

There is that mantra: if all women don’t like you it is caused by you. OK, now how can guy evaluate what he does wrong? Simply, women don’t find me attractive no matter what I do. They don’t see what they want in me. Here is statistics data for me:

15% are cold bitches or full of themselves bitches

5% are rude bitches who want to reject me to get some status from her friends

50% are polite, friendly, official, etc., i.e. everything but interested

20% are attention whores

9% are platonic provider seekers that want to exchange flirting for potentially non sexual benefits

1% are super impressed by my personality or conversation and offers me lifelong friendship while sleeping with some asshole and walk off super disappointed how man can’t value such sacred thing like female friendship.

First thing I can point out is that your mindset is very unattractive. What you think you deserve you will always get. Therefore if you think women don't like you then you will always blow up every slight resistance into thinking that they don't desire you

News Flash... It's the man's job to move the interaction forward towards sex and the woman's job to throw in some resistance to test his dominance and worthiness as a suitable mate

Always assume attraction

Majority of women I interact don’t hold eye contact with me or are offended by any kind of touch. They would speak with me until Judgment Day without any desire for anything besides conversation. Simply they have that mindset: "You are unworthy of me; I can’t even imagine to be with you unless you take the stars from the sky for me". I suspect they decide from the moment we meet that don’ want me and nothing I do later changes that, in fact they even search for disadvantages in our interaction to support why they don’t want me.

This means your calibration is off. You probably push too much when you should be backing off and also hang back when you should be pushing forward.

Some background of me: good looking, educated, good job, friendly, kind, ambitious, warm, funny, confident, like reading, sport. Some stereotypical perfect on paper guy.

Women don't want a perfect man. They want a man that's perfectly imperfect

Some background of women I interacted with: they were different types with mostly average look and personality (especially for achievement and generosity).

I tried every tactic I could find and results were more or less the same. I tried to be authentic, to be myself and don’t push hard for conversation and seduction but then women wouldn’t give a shit about me, I don’t pursue them much and in most cases there isn’t any interaction. Basically, I have average, ordinary women who demand super above attraction from my side and who rejects me for some guy similar to them or if don’t find him rather stay alone.

Again, this is a sign that your calibration is off. Funny thing about seduction is a lot of the techniques work, but they only work when used in the right time and context. You're thinking too black and white.

Do this. Breakdown your interactions into 4 phases

1) Open
2) Building Investment & Sexual Arousal
3) Isolation/ Pull
4) Close

Then look at all your interactions and see where you are losing girls the MOST.

Once you figured that out, then you can look for techniques to improve your stats in that segment of seduction. Keep re-iterating your process based on real world results and your success will improve in that segment. Then you can re-analyze your game again to patch up any other weak spots

It's can be a tedious process but it's well worth it

Good Luck

 

[Will_V]

I meet women pretty much everywhere: daygame (parks, bus stations etc), night game (usually when clubs finish and street/parks/beach near club are ideal places) and social circle (college, job, seminars etc.).

Typical approach: open situationally (or I am introduced in social circle), then warm/funny flirting, then personal conversation based on some similarity I found through flirting or cold reads. Then conversation roles filled with different similarity and arousal things and I monitor how it develops and when is the right time to escalate at some point (grab contact info, ask for date, touch, kiss etc.). Often I don’t get escalation window signs and really when I try to escalate anyway it fails. She just wants to talk until Judgment Day.

I had plenty of "good" interactions (about 60% as you saw from numbers) but they are all interactions I get reactions and not results with women. I could tell you few really good interactions when we were alone, enjoying conversation because of similarity, I move her, ask compliance, crack some joke, my mood is good and vibe is horny etc. and after all that she tells me that sees me as a friend. This is the best from me. Second best is when I see her in social circle we flirt, talk, she declines any date and leaves entertained. Then when we meet again accidentally she wants another dose of entertainment and leaves and full circle is closed again and again.

Yes, socially, I came from country X to country Y. Simply girls here are much more bitchier, lazy and dishonest than in previous country. Also, they use/manipulate men here more than in previous country. Not every girl liked me in my previous country but some were. Here, they hear my accent, realize due to origin that can’t manipulate me, see some of my personality traits like (ambition, hard work etc.) which they don’t have due to different mentalities and ditch me very quickly.

I don’t know for social skills, it is never enough of them, especially these days. Male colleagues at work respect me, often I have to deal with difficult people so I developed some "charisma" to solve situations, etc.

Problem it that I saw many women are focused on things they don’t like in me and can’t even imagine to be with me. I had situations that girl reacts good but as soon as I tell something not so interesting she looses every interest. Or situations where everything was perfect and she still didn’t let me to escalate. Simply, they from the beginning decide that don’t want me and everything goes in that direction no matter what I do and no matter if she seems interested (they do this for attention, looking for non-sexual benefits etc. or she is little bit horny but suppresses it at every cost).

It's hard to comment on the specifics of your interactions because they are filled with so many positive assumptions about yourself and negative assumptions about the woman. You are not looking at it like a student and focusing on what you can do to improve things, but instead weaving elaborate ideas about the cultural dynamic to explain what is happening.

A student with a closed mind cannot learn anything. They will fail, and every failure will harden their minds against any further evolution. To learn you must take a step back, find a way to be critical of yourself without valuing yourself any less, dissolve the casing around your mind and soften it so that it can be changed. That is something no one can do but you.

I can already see that you have very strong beliefs about women, have you asked yourself if they perhaps cannot see those beliefs in the way you talk and act, and that it increases their anxiety and sense of disconnection to the point where they cannot allow themselves to open up to you?

Seduction and sexuality is emotional in nature. Positive and negative emotions are contagious. And especially when a woman is confronted with the possibility of intimacy with a man, she becomes hyper aware of the signals he gives off and whether his desires are mixed with negative drives or impulses.

Every woman is well aware of how dangerous a man can be who has suffered a long time in loneliness and dissatisfaction. His thoughts veer between despair and anger, his spirit is unsure of whether it will find a more satisfying result in a negative or positive outcome. This makes a woman close off and try to find ways to prevent herself from becoming vulnerable to him. We who have gone through very dark places in life must sympathize with this, and even be glad of it, without thinking less of ourselves, and understand that when we are able to clean up our offer she will gladly give herself away, perhaps even more enthusiastically for our having overcome and conquered our demons.

Sex and intimacy is not a transaction of value, it is a bond where she allows your spirit to move inside her so that she can enjoy it and become part of it. If your spirit is not in a good place, she will talk, as you say, until Judgement day but never climb into bed with you.

 

[Whiteheart]

It's hard to comment on the specifics of your interactions because they are filled with so many positive assumptions about yourself and negative assumptions about the woman. You are not looking at it like a student and focusing on what you can do to improve things, but instead weaving elaborate ideas about the cultural dynamic to explain what is happening.

A student with a closed mind cannot learn anything. They will fail, and every failure will harden their minds against any further evolution. To learn you must take a step back, find a way to be critical of yourself without valuing yourself any less, dissolve the casing around your mind and soften it so that it can be changed. That is something no one can do but you.

I can already see that you have very strong beliefs about women, have you asked yourself if they perhaps cannot see those beliefs in the way you talk and act, and that it increases their anxiety and sense of disconnection to the point where they cannot allow themselves to open up to you?

Seduction and sexuality is emotional in nature. Positive and negative emotions are contagious. And especially when a woman is confronted with the possibility of intimacy with a man, she becomes hyper aware of the signals he gives off and whether his desires are mixed with negative drives or impulses.

Every woman is well aware of how dangerous a man can be who has suffered a long time in loneliness and dissatisfaction. His thoughts veer between despair and anger, his spirit is unsure of whether it will find a more satisfying result in a negative or positive outcome. This makes a woman close off and try to find ways to prevent herself from becoming vulnerable to him. We who have gone through very dark places in life must sympathize with this, and even be glad of it, without thinking less of ourselves, and understand that when we are able to clean up our offer she will gladly give herself away, perhaps even more enthusiastically for our having overcome and conquered our demons.

Sex and intimacy is not a transaction of value, it is a bond where she allows your spirit to move inside her so that she can enjoy it and become part of it. If your spirit is not in a good place, she will talk, as you say, until Judgement day but never climb into bed with you.

I think that this isn’t caused just by my bad, negative vibe toward women as consequence of my thoughts or negative preselection as consequence of bad vibe. Now, when I am in friendly environment, I can openly write how I feel and think about women based on my past experiences. In most interactions with women, I am warm and emphatic. After all I live good lifestyle and just invite women to join. Simply no game ever helped me so I concluded that they friend zone me from the time I open my mouth. Women sometimes seem aroused, or even auto invest (most are just talkative and enthusiastic) but back off at every sign that could interrupt friend zone.

I got from women that "I don’t want you, you remind me on X person" or "you are such annoying, selfish, rude, boring etc.". Close family and friends say I am not. I helped a lot of people in life. Simply, no matter how my mood is, my presence is always associated with something bad from women and they just look for signs to confirm that. They don’t show it but simply the smallest mistake in interaction or attempt to escalate is their green light to treat me like a shit or just loose interest for conversation. I don’t know if this is value or attainability, but this is one of the problems.

 

[metalbird]

@Blackheart Let me ask you some basic diagnostic questions.

Looks Questions:

1. What's your height?
2. What's your weight?
3. What's your chest circumference?
4. What's your waist circumference?
5. What's your bicep circumference?
6. What's your ethnicity (if you feel comfortable sharing)

Attire Questions:

1. What is the approximate dollar cost of a typical outfit you wear while approaching?
2. What level of attire do you typically wear while approaching? (Athletic, Athletic Casual, Trendy Casual, Business Casual, Business Formal, Formal+)
3. What is your hair length? (short, medium, long)
4. Do you wear any accessories or jewelery?
5. Do you have any tattoos?
6. Do you wear any scents?

Venue/Environment Questions:

1. What times of day are your approaches, typically?
2. What are the typical venues? (Street/sidewalk, retail, coffee shop, bookstore, campus, mall, food and beverage, live music, club, gym, park)
3. How crowded is the immediate environment, generally, when you make an approach?
4. In a typical environment like one you might generally make an approach in, have you ever witnessed another man execute a cold approach?
5. Are you or other people typically under the influence of any substance when you make an approach?

Target Selection Questions:

1. How many individuals are in a group with the typical person you approach? (Solo, with one friend of the same sex, with one friend of the opposite sex, with one parent, with both parents, with a larger group of the same sex, with a larger group of mixed sex)
2. What is the approximate age of the typical girl you approach? About how difference is that from your age, plus or minus?
3. Is there a certain "type" or "vibe" you go for? (Tatted, tall, blonde, hipster, conservative, muscle and fitness, etc)

Final Question:

1. Being absolutely brutally honest, what is the single worst aspect of your appearance?

 

[ulrich]

I meet women pretty much everywhere: daygame (parks, bus stations etc), night game (usually when clubs finish and street/parks/beach near club are ideal places) and social circle (college, job, seminars etc.).

Typical approach: open situationally (or I am introduced in social circle), then warm/funny flirting, then personal conversation based on some similarity I found through flirting or cold reads. Then conversation roles filled with different similarity and arousal things and I monitor how it develops and when is the right time to escalate at some point (grab contact info, ask for date, touch, kiss etc.). Often I don’t get escalation window signs and really when I try to escalate anyway it fails. She just wants to talk until Judgment Day.

I had plenty of "good" interactions (about 60% as you saw from numbers) but they are all interactions I get reactions and not results with women. I could tell you few really good interactions when we were alone, enjoying conversation because of similarity, I move her, ask compliance, crack some joke, my mood is good and vibe is horny etc. and after all that she tells me that sees me as a friend. This is the best from me. Second best is when I see her in social circle we flirt, talk, she declines any date and leaves entertained. Then when we meet again accidentally she wants another dose of entertainment and leaves and full circle is closed again and again.

Yes, socially, I came from country X to country Y. Simply girls here are much more bitchier, lazy and dishonest than in previous country. Also, they use/manipulate men here more than in previous country. Not every girl liked me in my previous country but some were. Here, they hear my accent, realize due to origin that can’t manipulate me, see some of my personality traits like (ambition, hard work etc.) which they don’t have due to different mentalities and ditch me very quickly.

I don’t know for social skills, it is never enough of them, especially these days. Male colleagues at work respect me, often I have to deal with difficult people so I developed some "charisma" to solve situations, etc.

Problem it that I saw many women are focused on things they don’t like in me and can’t even imagine to be with me. I had situations that girl reacts good but as soon as I tell something not so interesting she looses every interest. Or situations where everything was perfect and she still didn’t let me to escalate. Simply, they from the beginning decide that don’t want me and everything goes in that direction no matter what I do and no matter if she seems interested (they do this for attention, looking for non-sexual benefits etc. or she is little bit horny but suppresses it at every cost).

Can’t really point my finger on what it is exactly but it seems to be a relatability issue.

You can’t relate to these women and in turn they can’t relate to you to the point that they feel uncomfortable around you.

This could either be:
1) You look desperate.
2) You look dangerous.
3) The foreigner part of you is just too obvious to ignore and you are not doing enough to counter it
4) Your set of values is significantly different to the women you are meeting.

In this case, I would strongly suggest you to share which country you come from and where you are now so maybe someone here is experienced on that scenario.

If you’d rather not, next best thing is ask your close friends who are in the same situation what is their take of your situation.

 

[Whiteheart]

Can’t really point my finger on what it is exactly but it seems to be a relatability issue.

You can’t relate to these women and in turn they can’t relate to you to the point that they feel uncomfortable around you.

This could either be:
1) You look desperate.
2) You look dangerous.
3) The foreigner part of you is just too obvious to ignore and you are not doing enough to counter it
4) Your set of values is significantly different to the women you are meeting.

In this case, I would strongly suggest you to share which country you come from and where you are now so maybe someone here is experienced on that scenario.

If you’d rather not, next best thing is ask your close friends who are in the same situation what is their take of your situation.

Thanks for this. I also suspect that relatability is problem but I can’t find solution for this. Nobody whom I asked don’t know. Similar topics and experiences are not enough. There is that gap in character (temper) that simply can’t be overcomed. @Chase wrote me multiple times that differences in character can be compensated by good game but in my case nothing worked. They want my company but not on date, only if we accidentally meet somewhere (read friend zone).

Also, maybe relatibility is not only problem, I suspect on value too (although I did everything to at least have some sexual attraction). Simply, girls that are relatable <50% want nothing with me, 50-80% want some ordinary friend zone where they will be talkative when we meet accidentally somewhere but nothing beyond that, >80% want to be genuine friends with me or to frequently stay in touch.

I am phenomenon. Most guys have only problem in value or attainability but it seems I have both.

 

[ulrich]

I am phenomenon. Most guys have only problem in value or attainability but it seems I have both.

I’m pretty sure it’s value… and the value you’re missing, in my opinion, is relatability.

As @TomInHo mentioned, you are writing off most women for being bitchy or only interested in shallow stuff which points out to you not really understanding them deeply.

Im sorry to beat the dead horse but it seems clear to me that you have not been able to fully adapt to your new country and you are struggling to understand the women paradigms in your new environment.

Have you used your female friends to try to hook you up with her friends?
Are you meeting them regularly to at least get to know them and understand how their minds work?

 

[Whiteheart]

@Blackheart Let me ask you some basic diagnostic questions.

Looks Questions:

1. What's your height?
2. What's your weight?
3. What's your chest circumference?
4. What's your waist circumference?
5. What's your bicep circumference?
6. What's your ethnicity (if you feel comfortable sharing)

Attire Questions:

1. What is the approximate dollar cost of a typical outfit you wear while approaching?
2. What level of attire do you typically wear while approaching? (Athletic, Athletic Casual, Trendy Casual, Business Casual, Business Formal, Formal+)
3. What is your hair length? (short, medium, long)
4. Do you wear any accessories or jewelery?
5. Do you have any tattoos?
6. Do you wear any scents?

Venue/Environment Questions:

1. What times of day are your approaches, typically?
2. What are the typical venues? (Street/sidewalk, retail, coffee shop, bookstore, campus, mall, food and beverage, live music, club, gym, park)
3. How crowded is the immediate environment, generally, when you make an approach?
4. In a typical environment like one you might generally make an approach in, have you ever witnessed another man execute a cold approach?
5. Are you or other people typically under the influence of any substance when you make an approach?

Target Selection Questions:

1. How many individuals are in a group with the typical person you approach? (Solo, with one friend of the same sex, with one friend of the opposite sex, with one parent, with both parents, with a larger group of the same sex, with a larger group of mixed sex)
2. What is the approximate age of the typical girl you approach? About how difference is that from your age, plus or minus?
3. Is there a certain "type" or "vibe" you go for? (Tatted, tall, blonde, hipster, conservative, muscle and fitness, etc)

Final Question:

1. Being absolutely brutally honest, what is the single worst aspect of your appearance?

Easy to tell: tall, handsome, brown hair, blue eyes, muscles, pale skin, no tattoos, strong, warm, friendly, funny (most of the time), listener, bookworm, ambitious, hard working.

On approach: daygame (bus stops, bus stations, parks, bookstores, sea water while swimming, college places for reading – when I went there, retail store workers…), nightgame (places near clubs where people sit when party is over, this is really good place for conversation instead of noisy club only problem is that is the best on summer vacation), social circle (everywhere).

Conversation strategy: situational opener (or introduced if it is social circle), funny/flirty statements, try to get personal and then combine it with different tech. Sometimes I go directly personal if there is good opportunity. Here are numbers: in cold approach 80% of girls don’t hook, other 20% or hook then eject, or hook good but are just friendly or even seem interested but eject later (read attention whoring).

Group approach: I don’t do that (two girls maximum) unless I know someone from the group.

Type of girls: I like shy, modest, pretty girls interested in intellectual things in achievement in life and not just cheep fun with jerks (there is relatively small number of these girls anyway). In absence of them I try with other types, just not with typical hipsters, clubbers etc.

Everything is fine with my look, girls I gamed just see my good look, accent, vibe (ambitious, hardworking, strong) and associate it with bad things or dissimilarity, mentally friend zone me and look for things in my game to confirm their assumptions. Simply there is that "I don’t want you, you don’t deserve me, I can’t even imagine to be with you" no matter what I do.

 

[Whiteheart]

I’m pretty sure it’s value… and the value you’re missing, in my opinion, is relatability.

As @TomInHo mentioned, you are writing off most women for being bitchy or only interested in shallow stuff which points out to you not really understanding them deeply.

Im sorry to beat the dead horse but it seems clear to me that you have not been able to fully adapt to your new country and you are struggling to understand the women paradigms in your new environment.

Have you used your female friends to try to hook you up with her friends?
Are you meeting them regularly to at least get to know them and understand how their minds work?

I don’t have real female friends (don’t count shitty friend zone) besides those that are above 80% similar to me and who view me as a friend. They would find guys with let’s say 90% similarity and be with them but I who is 80-85% similar am a friend. Yes, those female friends tried to hook me with other female and those females because we were less than 50% similar auto rejected me from the time they lay their eyes on me, demolished all my attempts to create attraction and rather returned to abusive boyfriend.
Honestly most of those women had shitty look but behaved like there are the embodiment of divinity. Can’t nothing learn from female friends because we are similar anyway and interact with the same people. As I wrote above less similar girls or want nothing or standard friend zone. I read seduction or ask you guys here on forum for opinion, there is no other way… Maybe I post again with more detailly explained problem and someone will recognize his experience.

 

[ulrich]

I don’t have real female friends (don’t count shitty friend zone) besides those that are above 80% similar to me and who view me as a friend. They would find guys with let’s say 90% similarity and be with them but I who is 80-85% similar am a friend. Yes, those female friends tried to hook me with other female and those females because we were less than 50% similar auto rejected me from the time they lay their eyes on me, demolished all my attempts to create attraction and rather returned to abusive boyfriend.

And what do your female friends tell you about these situations?
Have you asked why they decided not to date you and why do they think it didn’t work between you and their girlfriends?

You are likely going to hear some bullshit but also there will be nuggets of truth in those answers.

I’m noticing a resistance from you to even consider the idea that you’re doing something wrong… “these women are idiots that make bad decisions and don’t even make sense”… this is not the best attitude to learn or fix anything.

 

[Whiteheart]

And what do your female friends tell you about these situations?
Have you asked why they decided not to date you and why do they think it didn’t work between you and their girlfriends?

You are likely going to hear some bullshit but also there will be nuggets of truth in those answers.

I’m noticing a resistance from you to even consider the idea that you’re doing something wrong… “these women are idiots that make bad decisions and don’t even make sense”… this is not the best attitude to learn or fix anything.

There isn’t resistance from my side, I don’t think that do everything right, otherwise if I thought so I wouldn’t ask for opinion.

My female friends don’t date me because I am not similar enough for them (80% similarity, this is mostly personality while I am unfortunately better looking and sometimes more successful at work). The thing is that the same female friends claim that I am boring and that claim is stronger as my success at work progresses. They see me less attainable but because we have a lot in common don’t auto reject me but treat me like I have value problem.

The same goes for girls they tried to hook me. There was that situation when they introduced me to ugly, dumb girl (I respect anyone, these are just facts) that from the time your eyes locked signaled all kinds of disinterest and later told them that I am too soft and nice guy. At some point most women treat me this way: auto reject from beginning or friend zone me from beginning.

Where I live now there is that mindset in women that protentional partner have to be 100% relatable and worse at every conventional attractive trait (look, education, intelligence, job, etc.) and has some super value (I don’t know what exactly). This is what I know for sure that could be problem although I don’t know if it is main problem in my case.

This is what I know so far. It it good idea you told me to ask honestly female friends and see where is the problem. Probably there will be some bullshit like I mentioned above ("you are boring") but probably it will be also something good. Thanks.

 

[ulrich]

I would start by investigating more deeply what they mean by “boring”… this is a good lead to something more specific and actionable that you can tweak.
Maybe you are not eliciting emotions or perhaps you’re abusing deep diving without balancing with chase frames, teasing or fractionation.

“Nice guy” is the label you get when girls feel you’re too agreeable and can’t lead things forward.
Check if you’re touching and isolating in a fast and socially intelligent way.

Also, your work position is something that women don’t really care about… it’s how guys measure themselves against a fictional hierarchy… chances are she is not part of that hierarchy and she doesn’t care.
Unless you’re a musician or an actor your job position holds no sexual value.

If you are estimating your value based on your “success” at work, that is not going to translate well into seduction.

Hope this helps.

 

[Will_V]

I think that this isn’t caused just by my bad, negative vibe toward women as consequence of my thoughts or negative preselection as consequence of bad vibe. Now, when I am in friendly environment, I can openly write how I feel and think about women based on my past experiences. In most interactions with women, I am warm and emphatic. After all I live good lifestyle and just invite women to join. Simply no game ever helped me so I concluded that they friend zone me from the time I open my mouth. Women sometimes seem aroused, or even auto invest (most are just talkative and enthusiastic) but back off at every sign that could interrupt friend zone.

I got from women that "I don’t want you, you remind me on X person" or "you are such annoying, selfish, rude, boring etc.". Close family and friends say I am not. I helped a lot of people in life. Simply, no matter how my mood is, my presence is always associated with something bad from women and they just look for signs to confirm that. They don’t show it but simply the smallest mistake in interaction or attempt to escalate is their green light to treat me like a shit or just loose interest for conversation. I don’t know if this is value or attainability, but this is one of the problems.

I think I might have confused your username with another poster who comes on every now and then and posts some pretty dark stuff, so if so, sorry about that!

Nevertheless it's good to keep in mind that a woman sees what you show her, and when she reacts a certain way, it's because she has seen or perceived something that caused her to do so. And given that in your op you describe your interactions with 'cold bitches' 'full of themselves bitches' and 'attention whores', I think it's fair to say that you have a pretty negative emotional reaction to women in general.

I don't want to make it sound like you need to go pedestalizing women to get into the right mindset, but certainly any kind of blame and accusation is an absolute killer to your chances of seducing them. A woman quickly categorizes a man based on how he makes her feel, and if she feels that she already has an emotional grip on him (he is reacting strongly, either positively or negatively) she cannot submit, because he cannot be trusted to be resolute when she is not.

Here is my perspective on the way that women behave around a man in a seduction setting:

1. If he is good looking, strong, dominant etc she starts to feel aroused and desires to submit to him (this is not really under her control).

2. Her arousal triggers anxiety - who is he? What's he made of? How will he treat me? Should I let this go any further?

3. This anxiety triggers her to become hyper aware of him, how he behaves, talks, moves etc.

4. If she senses something wrong with him - his personality does not project outward, he is emotionally weak, or whatever, one of two things happen: 1) her emotions swing the other way 'no! he's not my type' 'he's cute but exactly like my other friend!' etc and she begins to build her list of 'reasons' why his cock doesn't belong in her pussy. Or 2) if he continues to be sexually arousing but something makes her uncomfortable, she gets aggressive and starts shit testing, trying to make him shoot himself in the foot and take himself out of the race.

Now you can see that if she sees any kind of anger, hurt, despair, neediness, or coldness in your eyes, she will feel like she cannot submit to you, because you cannot be trusted to be firm yet warm with her. Desperation, hurt, and neediness are things that women often see in the eyes of men who look at them, and they have spent long enough around these men to know how to deal with it: if he seems stable enough, make him a friend, if he looks like he's about to lose a wheel or two, eject. In the first case, she does this because she has the upper hand - he is reacting to her not the other way around - and since women are agreeable creatures and not always comfortable with outright rejecting him, she will stand there and talk and talk and talk until her sheer social effervescence wins you over and you become her friend!

So the question is, what does she see 'wrong' that triggers her to go 'he belongs in the friend zone'?

First, your basic presentation seems good - your appearance is fine, you've got a good job etc. I think this is why women will spend time with you, because you seem like a 'good man!'.

This really leaves us with the way you talk, move and carry yourself.

- Are you secure and certain of yourself?
- Do you feel needy around women or do you just enjoy them for what they are?
- Are you dominant with women, do you lead the conversation, move her around, suggest in an assertive way things to do?
- Are you playful, can you tease her, can you apply and release pressure on her?
- Can you be sexually aggressive? (I don't mean crossing boundaries, but simply being assertive with your desires, using your physicality and eye contact to put a little bit of pressure on her).

Basically, does a woman know that 'if I want to keep this guy around sooner or later my pants are going to be off'?

I think a more detailed field report would be helpful here, otherwise it's very easy to make assumptions about you, her, and stuff that went on that might not necessarily be true.

One more note, I think @uriel is right to say that there is also a relatability problem, because in your case, the fact that the women talk and talk forever might also be a symptom of 'maybe if we talk long enough this weird barrier between us will disappear'. If you feel culturally disconnected from the women around you, or you are judging them in your head, this creates a sense of a barrier that gets between you two and prevents things from going further. Another good reason to turn loose all the negative frames of women you have in your head.

 

[Whiteheart]

I think I might have confused your username with another poster who comes on every now and then and posts some pretty dark stuff, so if so, sorry about that!

Nevertheless it's good to keep in mind that a woman sees what you show her, and when she reacts a certain way, it's because she has seen or perceived something that caused her to do so. And given that in your op you describe your interactions with 'cold bitches' 'full of themselves bitches' and 'attention whores', I think it's fair to say that you have a pretty negative emotional reaction to women in general.

I don't want to make it sound like you need to go pedestalizing women to get into the right mindset, but certainly any kind of blame and accusation is an absolute killer to your chances of seducing them. A woman quickly categorizes a man based on how he makes her feel, and if she feels that she already has an emotional grip on him (he is reacting strongly, either positively or negatively) she cannot submit, because he cannot be trusted to be resolute when she is not.

No, honestly don’t accuse women, this is just sincere talk between us guys how I feel in this moment about women. The thing is when I am alone, my frustrations pop out. In public I am different because usually I first warm up with some friends, crack some jokes, etc. and it makes me super warm and non-judgmental. There was one @Hector video about this to avoid projecting negative thought on women.

4. If she senses something wrong with him - his personality does not project outward, he is emotionally weak, or whatever, one of two things happen: 1) her emotions swing the other way 'no! he's not my type' 'he's cute but exactly like my other friend!' etc and she begins to build her list of 'reasons' why his cock doesn't belong in her pussy. Or 2) if he continues to be sexually arousing but something makes her uncomfortable, she gets aggressive and starts shit testing, trying to make him shoot himself in the foot and take himself out of the race.

Yes, this is exactly what happens. Exactly. From your eye contact or my voice tone she decides that want nothing with me besides casual talk. Like you described, she start searching for "reasons" why I am unattractive or gives me a lot of shit tests to make me to mess thing up, disqualify me etc. What hurt me is that happens with girls I meet online and that initially seemed interested. There was that girl, seemed super excited to meet me, wrote me long text where she carefully thought what to write me and when she finally meet me on date she went in neutral or friend zone him mode. Conversation went well but she doesn’t have any will to see me again, in fact even ignores my invitational texts.

Now you can see that if she sees any kind of anger, hurt, despair, neediness, or coldness in your eyes, she will feel like she cannot submit to you, because you cannot be trusted to be firm yet warm with her. Desperation, hurt, and neediness are things that women often see in the eyes of men who look at them, and they have spent long enough around these men to know how to deal with it: if he seems stable enough, make him a friend, if he looks like he's about to lose a wheel or two, eject. In the first case, she does this because she has the upper hand - he is reacting to her not the other way around - and since women are agreeable creatures and not always comfortable with outright rejecting him, she will stand there and talk and talk and talk until her sheer social effervescence wins you over and you become her friend!

So the question is, what does she see 'wrong' that triggers her to go 'he belongs in the friend zone'?

First, your basic presentation seems good - your appearance is fine, you've got a good job etc. I think this is why women will spend time with you, because you seem like a 'good man!'.

This really leaves us with the way you talk, move and carry yourself.

- Are you secure and certain of yourself?
- Do you feel needy around women or do you just enjoy them for what they are?
- Are you dominant with women, do you lead the conversation, move her around, suggest in an assertive way things to do?
- Are you playful, can you tease her, can you apply and release pressure on her?
- Can you be sexually aggressive? (I don't mean crossing boundaries, but simply being assertive with your desires, using your physicality and eye contact to put a little bit of pressure on her).

Basically, does a woman know that 'if I want to keep this guy around sooner or later my pants are going to be off'?

I have been thinking about this for years. I would rule out things like lack of dominance, confidence, playfulness, humor. For sexual aggression this can be partly true, I am not too much horny in their presence, although this can be "good" thing because women don’t like to touch them anyway. I can write causes that make women to friend zone me until now: 1. Women see my good look, modesty, eloquence, ambitious vibe and other conventional qualities which are these days associated with bad and unmasculine things due to low attainability. 2. (the most important) I don’t know. There is something in my personality that women sense/see and it strongly repels them. It is not fear, neediness, bad mood, any conventionally negative trait. Only God knows what is it and maybe you from this forum.

I think a more detailed field report would be helpful here, otherwise it's very easy to make assumptions about you, her, and stuff that went on that might not necessarily be true.

As you supported, one day I will write more detail report, with everything what and how happened, what I learned from you on forum (to avoid that other guys repeat answers) etc.

One more note, I think @uriel is right to say that there is also a relatability problem, because in your case, the fact that the women talk and talk forever might also be a symptom of 'maybe if we talk long enough this weird barrier between us will disappear'. If you feel culturally disconnected from the women around you, or you are judging them in your head, this creates a sense of a barrier that gets between you two and prevents things from going further. Another good reason to turn loose all the negative frames of women you have in your head.

 

[Chase]

@Blackheart,

Your last thread on here was about how to stop hating women. I don’t see any recent field reports from you; would be interesting to see what your conversations look like.

Your biggest issue though seems to be general alienation from women. Not every guy who excels with girls has this great understanding of them, but every guy who does great with them at least is very into them, or gets off on gaming them, or has some kind of passion or excitement for women. I don’t see any of that in you; just the opposite. This is one of the big things women sense when they meet you, and one of the things they are looking for:

“What’s he REALLY after with me? How does he feel TOWARD me?”

I guarantee they will pick up any wincing, defensiveness, anticipation of rejection, resentment, feelings of alienation, etc. It comes out through a man’s pores.

You need to totally change what you’re doing, with an eye toward transforming the core of your approach to women. There are two paths I can recommend to you; you can do either, or both:

1. Drop everything you’re doing with game and approach it instead with a completely open mind, as a scientist, seeking to get women to teach you about themselves. You are approaching not to GET anything from women, but purely to practice talking to and flirting with them, to see how they react, to better understand them, to have them show you what works with them and what doesn’t. If you get any dates or more from that, great, but that’s not the point — for now it’s science experiment & lesson time.
   
   
2. Switch your focus to 100% be seeking out female friends. Preferably attractive female friends, but take whatever you can get in the beginning then move up. Spend as much time around them as you can for a while, and again, do it not because you really want a friend, nor because you’re trying to shag them, but purely from a scientific perspective: you’re Dr. Livingston, living among the wild savages of Femalelandia, observing how they act, which men they pursue, WHY, how those men get them and what happens after. What these women think about, what they dream about, why they do things that go against what they say they want, and what that tells you about what they really want, and so on.

Most importantly, you must do this WITHOUT judgment.

Most Important Thing to Becoming a Lover of Women? Don't Be Bitter.

I sat there in a café by myself, staring blankly at a couple of abandoned plates of food. "I won't let this make me bitter," I whispered under my breath. I'd spent the night talking and moving from club to club with a girl I liked a lot and had been pursuing for months. She was smart, funny...

www.girlschase.com

If you do it with judgment (“Women are so stupid. They say they want X but then the get Y!” “Women will never be happy so long as they keep going for all those guys who aren’t me”), you will learn nothing, and will remain trapped in the narrow-mindedness that is the stone around your neck now.

This is more about what’s in your head than anything else.

The way around it is dropping the preconceptions you have and immersing yourself in women, in experimentation with women, and going about it with a completely open mind that is not judging, but simply observing and taking mental notes, until your mind shifts enough that you are ready to engage with women in a way women will enjoy.

Chase

edit to add: maybe think of this process as you seeking a way to turn yourself from Blackheart to Whiteheart. Or at least Lustheart. That's really the crux of this... this stuff you have going on inside. Until it's fixed, you will struggle, because women pick up on it.

 

[Whiteheart]

@Blackheart,

Your last thread on here was about how to stop hating women. I don’t see any recent field reports from you; would be interesting to see what your conversations look like.

Your biggest issue though seems to be general alienation from women. Not every guy who excels with girls has this great understanding of them, but every guy who does great with them at least is very into them, or gets off on gaming them, or has some kind of passion or excitement for women. I don’t see any of that in you; just the opposite. This is one of the big things women sense when they meet you, and one of the things they are looking for:

“What’s he REALLY after with me? How does he feel TOWARD me?”

I guarantee they will pick up any wincing, defensiveness, anticipation of rejection, resentment, feelings of alienation, etc. It comes out through a man’s pores.

You need to totally change what you’re doing, with an eye toward transforming the core of your approach to women. There are two paths I can recommend to you; you can do either, or both:

1. Drop everything you’re doing with game and approach it instead with a completely open mind, as a scientist, seeking to get women to teach you about themselves. You are approaching not to GET anything from women, but purely to practice talking to and flirting with them, to see how they react, to better understand them, to have them show you what works with them and what doesn’t. If you get any dates or more from that, great, but that’s not the point — for now it’s science experiment & lesson time.
   
   
2. Switch your focus to 100% be seeking out female friends. Preferably attractive female friends, but take whatever you can get in the beginning then move up. Spend as much time around them as you can for a while, and again, do it not because you really want a friend, nor because you’re trying to shag them, but purely from a scientific perspective: you’re Dr. Livingston, living among the wild savages of Femalelandia, observing how they act, which men they pursue, WHY, how those men get them and what happens after. What these women think about, what they dream about, why they do things that go against what they say they want, and what that tells you about what they really want, and so on.

Most importantly, you must do this WITHOUT judgment.

Most Important Thing to Becoming a Lover of Women? Don't Be Bitter.

I sat there in a café by myself, staring blankly at a couple of abandoned plates of food. "I won't let this make me bitter," I whispered under my breath. I'd spent the night talking and moving from club to club with a girl I liked a lot and had been pursuing for months. She was smart, funny...

www.girlschase.com

If you do it with judgment (“Women are so stupid. They say they want X but then the get Y!” “Women will never be happy so long as they keep going for all those guys who aren’t me”), you will learn nothing, and will remain trapped in the narrow-mindedness that is the stone around your neck now.

This is more about what’s in your head than anything else.

The way around it is dropping the preconceptions you have and immersing yourself in women, in experimentation with women, and going about it with a completely open mind that is not judging, but simply observing and taking mental notes, until your mind shifts enough that you are ready to engage with women in a way women will enjoy.

Chase

edit to add: maybe think of this process as you seeking a way to turn yourself from Blackheart to Whiteheart. Or at least Lustheart. That's really the crux of this... this stuff you have going on inside. Until it's fixed, you will struggle, because women pick up on it.

Thanks for post @Chase. I will definitely try this. I will write some field report with precisely described conversation just need to sit, concentrate and concrete describe interaction. Point of all my reports is that it doesn’t matter how much I flirt, relate to her answers or perform other game moves, she will reject me/flake anyway.

About my last post about stop hating women: I didn’t hate women because they are women but because they rejected me, ghosted and flaked countless times despite all my warmth and affection toward them and all my invested time and efforts to make them like me. Also, because they would specifically reject me to get some status points from her friends or because they were proven sluts who acted as pure saints in my presence. I became negative as consequence of many bad experiences not at the beginning of my journal in learning seduction.

Hear you soon!