Is DHV after a shit-test the same as qualifing yourself? Discussion w/ Velasco

[ljrozz69]

So @Velasco commented after I made an intervention on this topic. What follewed was an interesting, small discussion about what is qualifing yourself and how to do it properly. Since I didnt want to derail that thread, I decided to make this one instead. Here is the discussion:

Spoiler: Discussion

avoid qualifing yourself (telling/subcommunicating that you have big dick/ you'll fuck her for hours... etc).

How you communicate these things to her is what determines if you are qualifying yourself or DHVing about them

Qualifying:

her: why should I go home with you?
me: well I have a big cock. I know how to last a really long time. I have a big cock. and no girl has ever not orgasmed from having sex with me. Did I mention I have a huge cock? (although it may still work because of the humor lol)

DHVing:

her: why should I go home with you?
me: that's really up to you. but you probably shouldn't come with me if your sensitive to big cocks lol. In my experience there are just some girls who can't handle them, so I'd rather they go for someone smaller so they can have a not so painful experience. Also, if you can't keep up for more than 30 minutes. bad idea to come home with me lol.
her: I don't like small cocks.
me: lol ok then lets go.

- challenging her/not qualifying myself/willing to walk away. but still communicates what I want her to know about me.

Well @Velasco, thats the same to me, demonstrating (high) value after a test is accepting her frame and qualifying to her, giving her the power/lead-see how you have to disqualify yourself in order to get some of your power back in your example-. Althought this is another topic that may be good for another thread than this one.

Klimax

thats the same to me, demonstrating (high) value after a test is accepting her frame and qualifying to her

Hot girls shit test. Its an unavoidable part of seduction. Responding to her shit test is not qualifying yourself. Qualifying yourself is ONE way of responding to her tests (the unattractive way). While DHVing (any response (verbal or nonverbal) that is not qualifying/defending yourself) is the other. In this example I opted to go verbal, to show how you can communicate what you want her to know about you (universally attractive things about yourself (majority of girls will prefer a bigger dick to a smaller dick (and by that I don't mean every girl prefers 11 inches vs 6 inches (because we know that 11 inches is too big for some girls). I mean if the girl had the choice (all else being equal) between 5 inches and 3 inches, they will all pick the former) and all girls prefer guys who last longer (15 minutes vs 5 minutes)) in the attractive way of responding to tests (DHV) Vs the unattractive way (qualifying/defending yourself).

Well I have a hard time understanding why would one DHV to respond tests. I understand that the way velcasco does -at least in this example- is showing that he gets what she wants (pacing) and that he does have it. But why doing that? Isnt that exactly what qualifying is?
You display value in order to match the value she expects you to have in order to be "valuable enough" to consider your offer as acceptable. This frames her as being the one whos in control, the leader and more valuable than you. Imo thats what qualifying is
What I noticed though is that in Velasco's example he disqualifies himself and tries to challenge her back. In the way that I currently understand things now thats what makes his strategy work. Thus why I am confused.
Could you explain futher pls?

Ps: I also get that getting a shit-test may be a good occassion to shine, but I think thats has to do with her expectations about how you are going to handle the shit-test?

Klimax

 

[Velasco]

Well I have a hard time understanding why would one DHV to respond tests.

Well, what does passing a shit test (in this example the shit test is "why should I go home with you"?) signal to the girl shit testing you?

It signals that you ARE in fact a high value male (that's what she's testing you for. Is this guy really who he presents himself as being, so that I can fuck him). So when you do what I did

he disqualifies himself and tries to challenge her back.

Falsely disqualifying myself (DHV i.e. I didn't qualify myself), presenting my attractive traits in an attractive way (I'm not bragging about having traits that girls value - again DHV), then throwing her back a fake qualifier (I say fake, because I already know she doesn't like small dicks. And because she said she doesn't want someone that isn't me (a guy with a small dick) she's in a roundabout way, said that I'm the guy she values (a guy with a big dick). And because she's done that, I just say ok lets go then (because she wants me, and that's what I want (a girl that wants to sleep with me) + agreed to my condition for going home ("come home with me if you like big dicks") with me #qualified) she knows that I am what I present myself as being.

I presented a similar version of this in one of my LRs from that "My Old LRs" thread

I start (very close to her face, sexual slow voice) "I can already tell what kind of guys you like and which guys you don't like". I'm speaking to her, moving from one ear, slowly to the next. She's smiling, "what do I like?" "Well first you need the guy to be taller than you. You don't want someone shorter than you. She said yeah (I know she's gonna agree with everything I say because I'm listing things that are universally attractive to girls. And highlighting the ones that I also possess. This is a tactic I learned from Gabriel grey of surgical pickup. Emphasize I'm the kind of guy she goes for. So that she conciously recognises that what I do go for is standing right in front of me).Then you want the guy to have full kissable lips. You don't want to be kissing someone with thin lips. Have you ever made out with someone with thin lips?" Then she laughs a bit.

You also want a guy who knows what he's doing in bed. You don't want to have to tell him what to do. You just want him to know what you want and give it to you" at this point shes running her hands on my body. And my ass, while Im still speaking close to her face but refusing to kiss her, while I play with her hair.

I consider this a DHV. And based on her response that's how she interpreted it too (if her frame was that I was qualifying myself to her by telling her these things about myself - It'd produce the opposite response, no?)

You display value in order to match the value she expects you to have in order to be "valuable enough" to consider your offer as acceptable.

She's the customer (DTF attractive girl). She came looking to buy. And what I have may be what's she's interested in. It's my job as a salesman (game) to get her to choose my product (fundamentals/looks) over the other products (other guys in da club) available to her.

 

[ljrozz69]

She's the customer (DTF attractive girl). She came looking to buy. And what I have may be what's she's interested in. It's my job as a salesman (game) to get her to choose my product (fundamentals/looks) over the other products (other guys in da club) available to her.

Ok now I get why you told me all of this. I don't buy in this frame at all.
In my book you are the customer and she is the product. After all you went out to pick up some chick exactly like one would go to the grocery. I mean do you think she deserves your attention/time/affection/sex just because she thinks shes hot? I assume that you are attractive, know how to fuck well and make women feel all those emotions that others dont achive to. Do you know how rare it is? Do you know how many women fantasize about falling hard for a man but get frustated because they never find one they can fall for?
Now, you're the one who holds the money and she's the product -what you have to offer is more valuable than what she has to offer-. She has to compete against all those women that want that same thing from you (for more info on this search for articles related in the website, specially Chase's articles -frame control, be the prize etc). Do you feel how much more powerful you are in this position?
Thus, DHV is kind of pointless in this way of viewing things -actually in practice DHV has made seduction process faster for me when I tried that out but I still dont get why, so def dont give up on it if that works for you-.

I presented a similar version of this in one of my LRs from that "My Old LRs" thread

I consider this a DHV. And based on her response that's how she interpreted it too (if her frame was that I was qualifying myself to her by telling her these things about myself - It'd produce the opposite response, no?)

Well she was hooked and she was definitely not throwing any shit-test on you. Thus you were not expected to try to impress her. You doing this in attractive way as you say (DHV) is just showing an attractive part of yourself in a way that doesnt make you look like you are trying to impress her -what we call qualifying right?-.
Btw that part you quoted is really good - you do much more than just merely DHV.

Well, what does passing a shit test (in this example the shit test is "why should I go home with you"?) signal to the girl shit testing you?

It signals that you ARE in fact a high value male (that's what she's testing you for. Is this guy really who he presents himself as being, so that I can fuck him). So when you do what I did

I get shit-tests when I open and when I do something a bit lame/uncalibrated (or didn't escalte fast enough), never "for free". Thus what I conclude is that it is an attempt to get the lead of the interaction. This is why submissive girls almost never test/challenge you while freaks do that a lot. They want to know who wears the pants.
If you start displaying value after a shit-test it means that you have lower value to offer than her -since she is specting you to try to impress her and anything close will be framed as an attempt-. What ends happening is that she gets the power.
So you don't want to DHV or qualify when given a shit-test.

Anyways that's how I see things rn and what I belive in, but ofc I stay open-minded =)

Klimax


Btw I just noticed, me saying that you were disqualifying yourself wasnt an attempt to force frame (in the sense that it made you qualify yourself) but actually I just lacked a better word, I hope you still got the point.

 

[Velasco]

In my book you are the customer and she is the product.

I used to think this way too from reading PUA articles. "You are the prize she has to compete against all those women that want that same thing" (the reality is, 90% of the girls in the club do not know nor give a fuck who the hell I am in a cold approach setting (maybe I approached 7 girls outta the 30 girls in the club. 3 were instant rejections (can a grocery item at the supermarket reject you? or are you just gonna reframe it like "meh I didn't want that product anyway!!!") 2 were maybe girls. and 2 were YES. I fucked up on the maybe girls, so they lost interest (can a product lose interest in a customer?) One of the YES girls is interested, but her friends cockblocked me, cause they didn't like me. and now I'm talking to the other YES girl. And so because I'm talking to this YES girl, the only girl she is "competing" with, is the other YES girl that was taken away by her friends. And maybe some other girl that is within our field of vision, that has been watching me (good ole social proof), but I haven't approached yet. So really out of the 30 girls in the club, 3 are viciously (lol) competing for me. I know what I have to offer (looks, know how to fuck well, sense of humor). Does she have what I want (attractive, gets my sense of humor, DTF, sexually available). if yes, then we'll work on making a sale (game her).

But then experience (and reading other guy's experience) flipped that around and so now I consider myself a proud salesgamesman

You doing this in attractive way as you say (DHV) is just showing an attractive part of yourself in a way that doesnt make you look like you are trying to impress her -what we call qualifying right?-.

I am revealing universally attractive things about myself in the same way, I responded to the hypothetical shit test. That's what I wanted to highlight. which could have easily been perceived as me qualifying myself to her ("hey look at all these amazing physical traits about myself. pretty niiice, huh?") had I gone the wrong way about it.

Btw that part you quoted is really good

thank you

If you start displaying value after a shit-test it means that you have lower value to offer than her -since she is specting you to try to impress her and anything close will be framed as an attempt-. What ends happening is that she gets the power.

If I say, demonstrate value by start talking about some of the girls that I've fucked via sex stories => I am saying, my value is THIS high ("I am a sex god"- which is the level she wants in a guy she's attracted to, for a SNL).

And if she then shit tests me about it (maybe there have been a lot of guys in the past, claiming to have that high level of value that didn't actually have it (told her they were sex gods, but didn't deliver) (or she loves that high level of value, but needs to shit test me, because she doesn't want it to be a ONS, so she shit tests me about being a player), its because she doesn't actually believe I have THAT high of value or she thinks my value may be that high but she just wants to make sure of it.

When I then, confirm that my value is in fact that high, by displaying value/passing her shit test in an attractive way (not defending myself, but just revealing further traits about myself that the girl values), she believes me and gets turned on by it because I'm legit what she wants.

 

[ljrozz69]

I get what you are saying, Velasco. However the point of that frame is not that you belive in that -wich you absolutely can since you should have a few women in your life. However, beliving in this frame is going to make you mure convincing- BUT to MAKE HER BELIVE IT. Thus this outer game, not inner, and will affect your seduction. Now your way of looking at things is completly right and justifiable.
In the end it comes to how do you see the glass of water: do you want to see that it is half empty, or half full?
Imo it's a no-brainer

I am revealing universally attractive things about myself in the same way, I responded to the hypothetical shit test. That's what I wanted to highlight. which could have easily been perceived as me qualifying myself to her ("hey look at all these amazing physical traits about myself. pretty niiice, huh?") had I gone the wrong way about it.

Absolutely, but don't you feel the context is different? Like when she throws a shit-test she is expecting something from you? That was my point.

If I say, demonstrate value by start talking about some of the girls that I've fucked via sex stories => I am saying, my value is THIS high ("I am a sex god"- which is the level she wants in a guy she's attracted to, for a SNL).

And if she then shit tests me about it (maybe there have been a lot of guys in the past, claiming to have that high level of value that didn't actually have it (told her they were sex gods, but didn't deliver) (or she loves that high level of value, but needs to shit test me, because she doesn't want it to be a ONS, so she shit tests me about being a player), its because she doesn't actually believe I have THAT high of value or she thinks my value may be that high but she just wants to make sure of it.

I get it, there is like a "value threshold" that you have to meet in order to pass the test/escalate further.
Now my question is: what makes a women perception of your value suddenly change? Or could it be that you need enough value to get to X point, and so on?

See, I understand things differently so this is highly instructionnal, I appreciate it.
It would be cool if other guys would chime in so we can have different points of view.

Klimax

 

[Velasco]

However the point of that frame is not that you belive in that -wich you absolutely can since you should have a few women in your life. However, beliving in this frame is going to make you mure convincing- BUT to MAKE HER BELIVE IT.

After seducing her, after i've taken her to bed, proven that I am the real deal, is when the roles are reversed. I am the prize. I don't have to believe or try to convince myself that I am. I know I am. and its easy to act that way because my brain has proof that I am (girls text me for sex because they know what I offer is rare). (I'm the total package: I'm tall, good looking, good at sex, funny as hell, not needy etc.,) and they treat me as a prized possession (they're nice to me, cook for me, buy me stuff etc.,))

Prior to that tho, girls are not approaching me for sex (the girls I'm really interested in at least). So at the club, I take on the role of the salesman looking to sell my services/product to an interested buyer (and not just any buyer, she's gotta show me she's got the goods first (my qualifications), before we talk business).

when she throws a shit-test she is expecting something from you?

she's expecting me to prove that I am what I say I am. And if I am what I say I am, then what is the problem with her shit testing me?

I get it, there is like a "value threshold" that you have to meet in order to pass the test/escalate further.
Now my question is: what makes a women perception of your value suddenly change? Or could it be that you need enough value to get to X point, and so on?

we might be getting into KJ territory here, so I'll only say this:

Her "value threshold" (in the previous forum I was in, I referred to this as the "fuck threshold", but we can't access that post due to spam unfortunately) for what she wants from a guy she's attracted to (past the "looks threshold"), in order to fuck him that night is X.
Everything that comes out of my mouth (+ nonverbals) is demonstrating value to reach that threshold.
If she doubts anything coming out of my mouth, or justtttt wants to make sure I'm legit, she'll tests me (maybe she loves jerkboys, if I were to say or do something a jerk would say or do, she'll shit test me, to make sure I'm actually a jerkboy, so that she can then be attracted to me).
Once she believes everything coming out of my mouth, and that threshold is reached, then she'll give me the sign she's ready to come home with me (she's sold). And I'll either pull her home at that window of opportunity or she'll pull me home.
that's how I think about seduction.

See, I understand things differently so this is highly instructionnal, I appreciate it.

no problem

 

[ljrozz69]

I finally get it . So in your way of understanding shit-tests they are : is this guy's value as high as he pretends & fuck threshold (value needed) so you resolve it by "revealing" value (DHV)!

that's how I think about seduction.

Could you please tell about your game (type of girl, venue, effort needed, LMR , who did you modeled it after etc) ? It would help me to figure out how things are linked.

we might be getting into KJ territory here

Well my intention has always been to understand better, since I was surprised at your post/didn't understand it. I try to avoid over-theoritical discussions since I don't have the knowledge to back shit up - and because nobody is interested in a newbie's understanding of PU too xD- but I still don't very clearly the frontier between KJ and real stuff, I guess it'll take a few posts for me to get it.

Klimax

 

[Velasco]

Could you please tell about your game (type of girl, venue, effort needed, LMR , who did you modeled it after etc) ? It would help me to figure out how things are linked.

Sure
These are the main posts that served as inspiration for creating my game (which I'll get to in a second)

• https://www.girlschase.com/content/how-use-sex-talk-part-ii-case-study - this post served as the main inspiration for creating my own phrase: SNL traits.
• https://www.girlschase.com/content/pulling-lay-when-you-re-sick-dog-tired-report - this post served as the basic structure of how I run things (situational opener -> hook -> isolate -> sex talk -> escalate -> pull)
• https://www.technicalgamebible.com/ - this book served as my inspiration for getting investment from girls

The type of girl i'm interested for FB relationships is: pretty, shorter than me, in shape, loves sex, gets my sense of humor.

That's what my game screens for. (I do not care about girl's job titles, nor their hopes and dreams for what I'm interested in, so I do not take that information into account for my screening process (like right now, I still have no idea what my FBs do for work).

Alright now my game

So during the prehook phase - the first thing I'm screening for is if the girl shares my sense of humor. How do I screen for that? by opening her with a self amusing spike opener based on what she's doing/wearing. If she responds well, then I keep going.

For more information on my prehook structure see this post:

FR - Saturday Night - To freebee or not to freebee?

I started the night earlier than Friday, at 10:30PM. There were 8 sets I approached total. I will only go through four of them. Set 1: This was my second set of the night. It was a 2-set. I opened Girl A with, "Hey, I really like your top. It's very colorful." She responded with "thanks!"...

www.skilledseducer.com

Ok so now I've hooked, her. The last question I ask her before transitioning into the post-hook phase is: "so where's your boyfriend?" This question's purpose is twofold. 1). It serves as the next thing I'm screening for: Is she sexually available (https://www.goodlookingloser.com/more/archive/entry/getting-girls-is-a-numbers-game/) and 2). Its the first question I ask, that will serve as my transition toward demonstrating SNL traits.

Alright, so now the girl has past the pre-hook screening process - she's pretty, shorter than me, in shape, likes my sense of humor and she's sexually available. Now lets find out if she loves sex.

That's what we want to find out from my first gambit.

Now back in November, when I shared my original "transitioning into SNL traits" post, I have on there that the first gambit I use is to show girls that I have high standards ("I won't just date anybody"). well I no longer use this one, and now a days, I move straight into smoothly asking her about her favorite sex positions after inquiring about her boyfriend situation (which I shared in the comments section of that post (I've since cleaned up that gambit a little bit by eliminating unnecessary words/sentences from it).

This gambit's purpose is also twofold. 1). as I just talked about, I want to find out if she loves sex (I'm looking for girls that have no problem sharing their favorite sex positions with guys. Shyness around this question, will get girls screened out. And moving on to a new target). 2). To turn her on from it (the second half of that gambit accomplishes that for me).

Now that she's past my screening process (This whole process takes somewhere between 5-10 minutes), for the remainder of the post-hook phase, I want to keep building my value up (while getting investment from her), until I see that window of opportunity (that's how I know I've passed the fuck threshold).

How I build my value up is I ask myself: what does this girl need to know about me in order to fuck tonight? Well I want her to know that I'm a tall (I know she can clearly see that I'm tall, but I want her to consciously recognize that what she goes for is standing right in front of her - like the gambit I quoted) Spanish lover who travels a lot (DHV), loves sex, knows how to fuck girls, and that she can be real with me about her sex life. and finally that we need to do this NOW (urgency frame).

So I want to make sure I talk about all these things about myself. And to ensure I do, I set the context for all of them (i.e. I've created transitions for all of them) so that I can talk about each of them separately. Built into each of these gambits are questions that I ask her to reveal information to me (which I then reward for doing so), so that she feels that "I get her". (similarity bias)

For an example of how I do this, see this post:

Night Game Efficiency (or Time Management)

I'd like to figure out if how I'm approaching my nights is effective as well as what game plan you all follow when out. My goal for seduction at this point is to get 1 lay per week, could be from an SNL or a Day2. I created the following game plan from observing how I do my nights currently. So...

www.skilledseducer.com

Then when I see the sign (the eyes never lie, chico), I pull her (usually just a "wanna get outta here?"

And that's my game (the current iteration of it)

venue? anywhere that's big enough (enough targets), and has a quiet area I can talk in.

 

[pinpin]

I like when people write little mini 'manifestos' of their own game - keeping it kinda brief. Bit like RSD used to do before they released products. Good job

How does it look when she's not attracted though? (you're not her type physically). Your game doesn't seem to really include much of an 'attraction' phase? You can just tell she's not into you and you bounce on to the next girl? Does she still tend to contribute to the sex talk or does she just shoot it down and be like 'I don't wanna talk about this stuff with you'. Or maybe she is fine talking about it but she rejects any form of escalation attempt after the sex talk?? I'd worry about getting her thinking abut sex, and then she just grabs the first handsome guy she see's and he benefits from my hard work lol

I gather your running more 'screening game' as opposed to 'conversion game' (which is good I think, as i'm pretty sure 'conversion game' is just something that marketers want you to believe is possible lol. ''You can bang ANY girls you want!!!'' haha)

 

[Velasco]

How does it look when she's not attracted though? (you're not her type physically).

My whole game is based on screening until I find what I'm looking for. If she doesn't like what I look like, nor my sense of humor. Then its a no go. If she gets past that first stage, and then she gives me an answer similar to yours. Then its a no go too. I want to find these things out as quickly as possible, so that I can take advantage of the fact that there's still a lot of potential targets still in the venue (Like if I'm talking to a chick, that isn't receptive to my sexual game (uncomfortable even sharing her favorite sex position), and I've been trying with her for more than an hour, by the time I accept that she just will not take it further with me, I will probably be too tired and not feel like going through that whole process again (and will most likely just head home from there (I'm an introvert, so socializing drains me) and there'll also probably be less girls that I'm interested in around, from the time I wasted on her).

 

[Tr1cky]

Pin pin I think you have a frame [of reference] problem that could affect your results. When you say you're afraid of turning a girl on then her ditching you simply at the sight of a more handsome man you are operating from the frame of "women's top tool to determine mate choice is by a mans physical appearance." Put simply, you think women decide who they sleep with based on how handsome a guy is.

This causes problems with developing your game and the effectiveness of your game.

This might be fiction, or what they call useful fiction but I operate from the frame that a woman chooses her mates based entirely on how you make her feel. How this plays out is anytime I get rejected or dont get what I want from a woman the idea of "not being physically attractive enough" never enters my mind.

This allows me to be able to focus on the things that I can control. If a woman rejects or blows me off in a nightclub I never say to myself I wasnt her "type" or she just "doesnt find me attractive". Instead I look at what i said and how it made her feel.

That is how to develop your game. It would be like a comedian bombing his set and then saying geeze maybe I'm not attractive enough for this. I need to hit the gym, make more money and buy better clothes! Then they'll laugh!

That's why going direct fails so frequently, women dont make their mate chooses based purely on looks.

This also leads into ONE of the reasons why "handsome" men do better with women. One way to look at who women choose to date/sleep with is they want to find the man that has the ability to ascend up any given hierarchy. In part they determine this by who is at the top of one particular hierarchy and extrapolate that they have the ability to ascend up other hierarchies.

This can take the form of dating the men at the top of any particular activity or person of authority (yoga teacher, top polo player, successful business man etc).

Where men fuck up is they think women are most persuaded by looks so when they see a more handsome man they put him on a pedestal (a lot of this manifests in unconscious behavior you could never hope of controlling or even articulating) and begin reacting to him as if he is at the top of the hierarchy. In effect this triggers women to see a particular "handsome man" as a desirable candidate not so much because of his genetic ability manifested in his looks but rather because she sees him as someone at the top of the social hierarchy.

Once you realize women dont judge men the way we judge women,nearly entirely by looks it will help prevent women ditching you for a "more handsome man". It will also increase your value to yourself, indirectly increasing your "swagger". Once you realize women mostly care about feelings and visually invisible hierarchies (for lack of a better word) you will value what you have to offer more knowing you can more effectively give women what they truly crave than just some handsome guy.

 

[pinpin]

If she doesn't like what I look like...Then its a no go.

Cool. Just wanted to know how/if you persisted with girls who weren't taking the bait.
cheers

 

[ljrozz69]

Wow, I was asking about specifics of your game but actually you did break it down for me, wich is even better!

Thank you for taking the time answering all this stuff, it was indeed very interesting.

Klimax