Is Marriage Worth It?

[Karea Ricardus D.]

It’s more of a deterrent, I think.

A big punishment so you are less inclined to run your womanizer shenanigans.

A deterrent for the man and an incentive for the woman.

Say she's already thinking about leaving, and if you were just bf/gf (for a while or forever with kids), it might smooth over.

But now she has a voice in her head saying... "well Sarah said I should just break up with him, and besides I could keep the kids and I'd be okay financially also cause I'd get the alimony, and besides that's just right, I should get that money cause I really supported him a lot and..."

In interviews with Warren Buffet, he always hits on one point... how much incentives matter, and how much after decades of doing the work he does he's still surprised just HOW MUCH incentives influence decisions.

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

Marriage and Child Well-Being: Research and Policy Perspectives - PMC

Over the past decade, the linkages between marriage and child well-being have attracted the attention of researchers and policy makers alike. Children's living arrangements have become increasingly diverse and unstable, which raises important ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Agreed. I think the cause is stable 2 parent relationships rather than the marriage itself but there's less literature on stable co-parenting.

I've wasted far too much time on this lol - will keep an eye out for Chase's article

oh... the source on "why you should involve the government" is from the government?
haha. that's a .gov TLD...

but yeah we're on the same page, it's about the 2 parents, not about involving the government.

 

[Chase]

Hey, it's been a good thread.

I read through everything on here as I prepared my thoughts on the subject. Ended up covering some areas I probably would've left out covering without the discussion here.

Anyway, my rather sprawling thoughts here:

Is Marriage Worth Doing Anymore If You're a Man?

Modern marriage seems to offer many pitfalls for men. Yet many men still marry anyway. So is marriage worth doing for men today – or not? Contents 1. My Position 2. Marriage’s Shifting States Original Marriage Marriage: Qui Bono? Shifting Sands Why This Way? 3. Is Marriage Worth It? Who Is It...

www.girlschase.com

Hopefully this is balanced, interesting, etc., and not long-winded (though it is LONG).

I will say, this is a subject that has had a lot of thought by me and discussion between myself and friends over the years.

I actually see some guys having similar thoughts in this thread to thoughts my friends and I had trying to marriage hack a dozen or so years back (e.g., "How can do this, only do it WAY BETTER than the way society currently has it engineered?").

Maybe someone will get that to work where my buddies and I did not succeed. I'd be glad to see it (and see how it's made to work!).

To be an unconventional man, trapped within a conventional world... such is life!

Chase

 

[TomInHo]

Hey, it's been a good thread.

I read through everything on here as I prepared my thoughts on the subject. Ended up covering some areas I probably would've left out covering without the discussion here.

Anyway, my rather sprawling thoughts here:

Is Marriage Worth Doing Anymore If You're a Man?

Modern marriage seems to offer many pitfalls for men. Yet many men still marry anyway. So is marriage worth doing for men today – or not? Contents 1. My Position 2. Marriage’s Shifting States Original Marriage Marriage: Qui Bono? Shifting Sands Why This Way? 3. Is Marriage Worth It? Who Is It...

www.girlschase.com

Hopefully this is balanced, interesting, etc., and not long-winded (though it is LONG).

I will say, this is a subject that has had a lot of thought by me and discussion between myself and friends over the years.

I actually see some guys having similar thoughts in this thread to thoughts my friends and I had trying to marriage hack a dozen or so years back (e.g., "How can do this, only do it WAY BETTER than the way society currently has it engineered?").

Maybe someone will get that to work where my buddies and I did not succeed. I'd be glad to see it (and see how it's made to work!).

To be an unconventional man, trapped within a conventional world... such is life!

Chase

Great article

Gave me a lot of clarity and now I’m currently shopping to get an engagement ring for my AI Wife

 

[Kaida]

It’s more of a deterrent, I think.

A big punishment so you are less inclined to run your womanizer shenanigans.

I might be under the wrong impression, but cant a competent seducer with a strong frame cheat frequently in an LTR and have the girl still stay with him?

I've noticed I've been hoping that once I get good I can mostly do what I want and my girl will stay with me, given I still fulfill her needs

 

[ulrich]

I might be under the wrong impression, but cant a competent seducer with a strong frame cheat frequently in an LTR and have the girl still stay with him?

To a degree.

If she suspects strongly or knows for a fact that you are cheating, she will feel insecure and either dump you or make things harder for you.

Discretion is the name of the game.

 

[Conquistador]

A deterrent for the man and an incentive for the woman.

Say she's already thinking about leaving, and if you were just bf/gf (for a while or forever with kids), it might smooth over.

But now she has a voice in her head saying... "well Sarah said I should just break up with him, and besides I could keep the kids and I'd be okay financially also cause I'd get the alimony, and besides that's just right, I should get that money cause I really supported him a lot and..."

In interviews with Warren Buffet, he always hits on one point... how much incentives matter, and how much after decades of doing the work he does he's still surprised just HOW MUCH incentives influence decisions.

That’s not really what I meant but whatever…I kind of assumed that most white picket fence couples are in settings that disincentivize women leaving, much less cheating…I suspect real-world general pop statistics support that sort of thing…certain types of girls (who are more likely to get married to start with) are much more likely to stay with their man (especially if he’s a great catch like everyone here is/will be)

I might be under the wrong impression, but cant a competent seducer with a strong frame cheat frequently in an LTR and have the girl still stay with him?

I've noticed I've been hoping that once I get good I can mostly do what I want and my girl will stay with me, given I still fulfill her needs

If you already agreed to exclusivity and go back on that, you’re completely responsible for the consequences of your actions

It’s kinda assumed that anyone seriously considering marriage or super-LTR is willing to give up variety and spend his time on other manly achievements.

Or you can just do open/swinger/whatever but that’s a whole nother rabbit hole

 

[Will_V]

Hey, it's been a good thread.

I read through everything on here as I prepared my thoughts on the subject. Ended up covering some areas I probably would've left out covering without the discussion here.

Anyway, my rather sprawling thoughts here:

Is Marriage Worth Doing Anymore If You're a Man?

Modern marriage seems to offer many pitfalls for men. Yet many men still marry anyway. So is marriage worth doing for men today – or not? Contents 1. My Position 2. Marriage’s Shifting States Original Marriage Marriage: Qui Bono? Shifting Sands Why This Way? 3. Is Marriage Worth It? Who Is It...

www.girlschase.com

Hopefully this is balanced, interesting, etc., and not long-winded (though it is LONG).

I will say, this is a subject that has had a lot of thought by me and discussion between myself and friends over the years.

I actually see some guys having similar thoughts in this thread to thoughts my friends and I had trying to marriage hack a dozen or so years back (e.g., "How can do this, only do it WAY BETTER than the way society currently has it engineered?").

Maybe someone will get that to work where my buddies and I did not succeed. I'd be glad to see it (and see how it's made to work!).

To be an unconventional man, trapped within a conventional world... such is life!

Chase

Fantastic article as usual Chase, and cleared up some of my ignorance about the history of marriage - for example I knew divorce had gotten 'easier' in recent decades/centuries but I wasn't aware specifically of the no-fault divorce law change.

The more I think about it the more I lean toward the idea of becoming wealthy enough to simply be able to bleed money in a divorce without it causing too much suffering, such as the dude paying 250k/month in child support for 12 children and it barely puts a dent in his bank account lol. And it might give you some opportunity to improve your child's upbringing to offset the risks, such as being able to afford a higher quality education.

As much as I dislike the notion of leveraging wealth against problems that seem to be solvable with frame control, the problem is that, as you pointed out in the article, society and the state are still regulating marriage WHILE having virtually no use for it themselves - so you are dealing with an unavoidable opponent that has no need to negotiate for anything (such as needing to have you as a man put deep roots into society so that you'd have a stake in defending it, as you mentioned was a thing in the past).

Seems to me that when you are dealing with an opponent who has no real interest in negotiating something from you and which you cannot defeat directly, the only thing left, besides perhaps going to a different country where things are a bit different (and that's always a tradeoff), is to grow as large and powerful as possible so as to minimize the amount of damage they can inflict, or at least the effect of that damage on you.

It's too bad that money seems to solve a lot of problems these days that it shouldn't have anything to do with, but I guess that's the way things go in a degenerate society that's falling out of order and, it would seem, nearing collapse.

 

[orkie123]

Fantastic article as usual Chase, and cleared up some of my ignorance about the history of marriage - for example I knew divorce had gotten 'easier' in recent decades/centuries but I wasn't aware specifically of the no-fault divorce law change.

The more I think about it the more I lean toward the idea of becoming wealthy enough to simply be able to bleed money in a divorce without it causing too much suffering, such as the dude paying 250k/month in child support for 12 children and it barely puts a dent in his bank account lol. And it might give you some opportunity to improve your child's upbringing to offset the risks, such as being able to afford a higher quality education.

As much as I dislike the notion of leveraging wealth against problems that seem to be solvable with frame control, the problem is that, as you pointed out in the article, society and the state are still regulating marriage WHILE having virtually no use for it themselves - so you are dealing with an unavoidable opponent that has no need to negotiate for anything (such as needing to have you as a man put deep roots into society so that you'd have a stake in defending it, as you mentioned was a thing in the past).

Seems to me that when you are dealing with an opponent who has no real interest in negotiating something from you and which you cannot defeat directly, the only thing left, besides perhaps going to a different country where things are a bit different (and that's always a tradeoff), is to grow as large and powerful as possible so as to minimize the amount of damage they can inflict, or at least the effect of that damage on you.

It's too bad that money seems to solve a lot of problems these days that it shouldn't have anything to do with, but I guess that's the way things go in a degenerate society that's falling out of order and, it would seem, nearing collapse.

The viewpoint of getting extremely wealthy to the point where losing assets in divorce doesn't phase you is my idea of abundance mentality in marriage.

People called me out for scarcity mindset for believing marriage can improve/extend partnerships yet they had the same scarcity mentality with money/assets. Given how few girls I find compatible for long-term partnerships, and how easy it is to make money once you learn some high income skills, I rather risk losing assets then missing out on a top girl cos I wouldn't marry her.

You could argue that it's my fault that I can't find/access as many top girls who are compatible but hey that's why i'm on this site and not on a how to make money forum.

Once you reach a level of financial power, even if you lost all your assets, you can quickly get back to a decent financial level.
With girls, no matter how good of a seducer you are, finding a top quality girl for you is more relative - the better you become, the higher the quality you require to feel satisfied.

To take it to the extreme - imagine Elon Musk having all his assets taken. Goes to jail for 1 year and comes out with no money, no family to support him and his previous network all hate him. Guy has enough skills and knowledge to be a billionare again within a few years (if not earlier) guaranteed. Pretty much any billionaire who didnt inherit fortunes would be the same too unless they become depressed.

In the end, Chase's article aligns with how I feel. Know why you want marriage but be prepared for divorce. If you are unsure, its most likely not for you. Awesome article.

 

[Will_V]

Given how few girls I find compatible for long-term partnerships, and how easy it is to make money once you learn some high income skills, I rather risk losing assets then missing out on a top girl cos I wouldn't marry her.

That's a very good point, there are way more hot girls out there than there are hot girls who are wife material. I put a lot of value these days not only in the way a woman is raised, but how she is shepherded by her parents during our relationship. A woman's mother especially has a huge effect on how she deals with relationship issues - as shown by the example Chase gave of his friend, and some stories I've heard personally from people I know. Fortunately (so far) I've pretty much had my women's mothers on my side during my LTRs, but they usually are that way when you still hold a lot of negotiating power.

Learning seduction is absolutely essential for having loads of fun with women and especially for creating the opportunities with the ones you really want, and relationship skills are just as necessary to make sure you perform well as a leader, but the caliber of a woman's nature and upbringing is something I have found more and more crucial since I have started to think about raising a family and looked at her critically for that role.

 

[DarkKnight]

I just read the article as well, and yeah like I mentioned before, for me marriage is more stable ground for raising children, this is ONLY reason why I consider it and am probably going to settle down.

Then I read about the marriage hacking people , and honest to God I dislike that mentality. For some reason it reminds me of a lot of people I have encountered (aside from relationships) who believe they can "manage" people, without forgetting that some things are just essential for an interaction to sustain itself. So they gaslight and they try to outframe, or freeze out all kinds of crazy things and more often than not -> it blows up in their face. There is still a law of reciprocety in the world and if you keep failing to hold your end of the bargain this is going to work against you and close yourself up against people who are worth of a damn. Extremely shortsighted way of thinking. I dislike it more when these people tend to not have a feeling of accountability and act like a victim. Have seen it so many times. Sometimes I read articles of Chase and I just get flashbacks of people who I have encountered through my life and I know these are such people.

 

[thundercock.]

Hey, it's been a good thread.

I read through everything on here as I prepared my thoughts on the subject. Ended up covering some areas I probably would've left out covering without the discussion here.

Anyway, my rather sprawling thoughts here:

Is Marriage Worth Doing Anymore If You're a Man?

Modern marriage seems to offer many pitfalls for men. Yet many men still marry anyway. So is marriage worth doing for men today – or not? Contents 1. My Position 2. Marriage’s Shifting States Original Marriage Marriage: Qui Bono? Shifting Sands Why This Way? 3. Is Marriage Worth It? Who Is It...

www.girlschase.com

Hopefully this is balanced, interesting, etc., and not long-winded (though it is LONG).

I will say, this is a subject that has had a lot of thought by me and discussion between myself and friends over the years.

I actually see some guys having similar thoughts in this thread to thoughts my friends and I had trying to marriage hack a dozen or so years back (e.g., "How can do this, only do it WAY BETTER than the way society currently has it engineered?").

Maybe someone will get that to work where my buddies and I did not succeed. I'd be glad to see it (and see how it's made to work!).

To be an unconventional man, trapped within a conventional world... such is life!

Chase

Great article, great thread

So if I want kids and dislike sharing women, there are basically four realistic "marriage hacks":

1. Move to a country where polygyny is legal and socially acceptable.
2. Move to a country where having mistresses and having kids with them is socially acceptable (won't lead to divorce, etc).
3. Build a harem out of lower quality chicks that would be willing to accept non-exclusivity and stick to it despite social disapproval, even after kids.
4. Serial monogamy: pop many kids with each girl and then remarry every 15 years or so for a younger.

There are tradeoffs associated with each.
The countries where polygyny is legal are usually conservative, you would likely have to integrate (islam), and would be bound by a host of other social control. You could probably live there well if you're wealthy, but still.
Settling for lower quality chicks isn't ideal and you would have to chose wisely for the long-term frame battle to be manageable, although everything usually changes when kids come into play...
Serial monogamy is the most realistic option, fully socially acceptable, and the one most billionaires, actors, etc choose. Child outcomes are good too, as far as I read. (A lot of the negative outcomes associated with divorces are confounded by income, alcoholism, dysfunctional relationships, etc.)
Finally, you could try to hack the system completely like that swedish migrant whose poly marriage was not only recognized, but he got three apartments for his three wives off welfare... LOL!

 

[ulrich]

,swedish migrant whose poly marriage was not only recognized, but he got three apartments for his three wives off welfare... LOL!

Such a Chad

 

[Tim Iron]

This has been a really good discussion.

From what I see the main camps are:

1) Don’t get legally married but have a ceremony, meet families, honey moons etc. to escalate the relationship to satisfy her need(s)

2) Get married because there’s a chance she’ll decline life partnership or change her mind later

I’m in camp 1 for reasons already shared but another one I’m surprised no one is talking about is dating dynamics.

A girl after 10 years with 2 kids is going to have a far harder time finding someone vs you which is even more of an incentive for her to stay

Of course there are no guarantees but I believe in doing your best to stack the odds/probabilities in your favour & letting things fall where they fall.

Ultimately guys in camp 1 would rather take the risk of being “alone” & never starting a family while guys in camp 2 prefer the risk of divorce.

It’s a personal choice.

In any case both camps should do thorough research of the legalities in their own countries and plan accordingly if/when the time comes.

I’m sure we can all agree this isn’t an area you can just casually try / “hope for the best”

You have the exact mindset that I have concerning this issue. The only additional things are that I don't intend living in the same house with the mother of my kids (common law marriage) and whatever financial provisions that I will be making needs to be non-electronic i.e. cash (or else she can take me to court and demand some form of alimony because I got her used to a certain lifestyle - it happened to a billionaire in Canada who had a single mother with 2 kids as a girlfriend. Never married her, and never lived in the same house, but she and her lawyers were able to prove that he presented her as his long-term partner/wife to his family and associates, took her and her kids on vacations and he was giving her huge sums of money for upkeep.)