Is This One Over?

[J.Master]

Sorry if this is a bit long, but I wanted to get all the info in there, I would love any thoughts and advice anyone can spare. Thanks.

So I work in the film industry, I was working on a film recently and I really hit it off with one of the actresses, there was clear attraction on both sides and some real strong chemistry, a very good match. A few other people commented on the girls attraction for me, and there was a bit of a joke going round about how long it would take us to get together (people talking quite openly about this).

I was very busy during filming, my job means working roughly 18 hours a day for almost 6 weeks straight, so I didn't really have the time to take this girl out properly, plus I've learnt from a previous job 'not to shit where you eat' - things can get very messy and awkward. Plus I always put my job first. I think if anything this attitude helped, the girl started finding reasons to hang around me and she really seemed to be putting the effort in to impress me.

When we finally finished filming we had a big party for all the cast and crew, I spent the whole night with this girl, she was following me around everywhere, eventually we separated from the group and whenever anyone tried to get our attention they failed, we were 'hooked on each other' - I told her I had thought about asking her out a lot and she explained she would have loved that. I invited her back to mine but she had an early train to catch back to her home city and was staying quite far from my house (on a couch in a friends house), but she really did want to come back with me but just couldn't, which I accepted.

The next morning she sent me a text saying she would have loved to have come home with, how much she enjoyed meeting me and that she wanted to see me soon and didn't want this to be goodbye. We spent the whole next week texting back and forth all day and night with her putting most of the effort in. I've never had this much attention from a girl before, and it felt easy and natural. I suggested meeting up (we live 3 hours away from each other) and she agreed she wanted to but might have to wait a couple of weeks as she got settled back in at home. I handled this well and said that was fine and was looking forward to it and low and behold a day later she said she had free time that weekend and for me to visit her if I wanted.

So I took a bus to her on the weekend, we had a great time, she showed me around, introduced me to people, we laughed a lot, this was probably the best connection I've felt with a girl before. We spent the night together and she was all over me, and in the morning she was being all 'cute and cuddly' with me and she told me how glad she was she had met me. The next day we went out into the city again for some lunch and a coffee and she was quite happy to kiss me in public. She told me how much fun she was having and really wanted to do this again soon, so I suggested I stay another night and she happily agreed.

Later that day, back at her place, she got a text (she'd barely been on her phone all weekend) - she spent a couple of minuets replying and seemed to get frustrated before turning to me and asking in very awkward manner if it would be ok for me to leave that night, she nervously explained that she didn want me to stay but she had totally forgot she was meant to meet with her ex that night to 'sort some stuff out' and it would be better to just get it done as she'd put it off once already. I said it was fine if she needed me to leave, tried to remain cool about it, and I said it was none of my business about the ex but asked one thing 'that there was nothing still going on between them' and she very quickly and firmly stated that there wasn't, there was just some lingering stuff that needed to be sorted and she said she didn't want to leave me on my own for a couple of hours and she didn't know what mood she'd be in after the meet up with her ex. So I said it was fine, trusted her honesty and agreed to leave that night and we left on a good note saying we'd meet up again very soon. Following that text she seemed torn between wanting to give me attention and be re-assuring but also seemed distant, and in her own head. We'd had a conversation about some family issues that were going on (her Dad had recently passed and her mother was struggling with it and she'd had a call from her mother that day).

The next couple of days we messaged each other and she responded, so I suggested arranging a date to meet up again. She explained things were very hectic for her at the time and maybe it would be best to look at it in a week or twos time to see how our schedules were. So I said that was fine. The next couple of days she went completely silent on me, I didn't push for a response at all and eventually I got a message from her saying sorry, she was extremely busy and had been meaning to reply sooner (I noticed she had been online on whatsapp quite a lot which gave me a bad feeling she was maybe losing interest). Eventually we were having a brief chat over messaging when suddenly she dropped this bomb on me: 'I'm not girlfriend material'. I flipped it by saying 'I'll be the judge of that' and she found it funny but the tone quickly changed back to her saying how there was 'drama in her life at the minute' so I said I was reading her loud and clear, told her I had a great time with her the previous weekend, and that if things calm down for her she should give me a call, and she replied by saying 'We'll see each other again soon I'm sure of that xxx'. Which still seemed fairly open to me, and a good place to back off and give her space.

This is where I went in to 'paranoid creep mode' - We have a mutual friend that is also an actor and lives in her city, he's a good looking guy, and quite charming, she had explained that that week he had given her free tickets to his play, and I noticed that for the days following that they had been online on whatsapp at roughly the same times while she hadn't been responding to me. I had spent a lot of youth having girls swept from under my feet by other guys and I felt that horrible feeling of low self esteem return, maybe being paranoid, but had a feeling she had brushed me off for him (I mean they live in the same city and I'm 3 hours away so I could possibly understand if she had).

The paranoia got the better of me so I sent her a message putting it out on the line, saying I felt a connection with her and had enjoyed our time and explained when things calm down for her I'd really like to try and meet up again. She replied by saying things really were hectic (again) and although she really valued me and wanted to see me again the timing meant maybe it was best just to stay friends (ah the friendzone... I know you well). I was annoyed she had blown so hot and all of sudden just dropped to cold on me but I didn't let it show, I gave her an ultimatum explaining I didn't want friendship and to call me if she changed her mind. She didn't reply.

A day or two went by and I tried to forget about it, but this girl had really got into my head now. I stupidly went back on my ultimatum and messaged her again, coming across like a really needy idiot... she gave me the 'it's not you, don't beat yourself up' speech and ended it with a full stop clearly meaning ' end of conversation.

A couple of days went by and she sent me a message saying happy birthday, I replied a day later with a light hearted message saying thanks and wishing her luck for an upcoming event and again no reply, and that's where we are up to, I've since left it another 3 days with no contact.

Another mutual friend (who's a girl) told me:

- she really does like me
-she really is THAT busy at the moment and with the family porblems maybe the timing was off
- I was being a bit too pushy and needy which is a turn off
-No, she doesn't think she's the type of girl to just drop me for another guy
- That I should leave it for a week or two and drop back in with another light message and see if she warms up to me again

I had a really big result with a work project recently, that has put my 'value' way up and I'm getting lots of interest from girls, my attraction and confidence seems to be high. I know this girl will know about my work result as it's been public knowledge within our circles and industry.

I took another girl out last night on a date, she was very attractive and seemed really keen on me, she was doing most of the work, but I can't shake this actress from my head, I ended the date early in a nice way as it just didn't feel right.

I know a lot of you will say move on, more fish in the sea, stop having 'oneitis' but I feel like there might still be a shot with this girl and I've never felt a connection like this... it would be different if I was lusting after her and she had shown no attention but there clearly is a spark between us.

Have I completely blown it?

Is there a chance she has just blown me off?

Any advice would be great. Thanks.

(Sorry for the long story)

 

[ray_zorse]

In a word, yes, it is definitely over.

I honestly wouldn't get too upset about this though, since even a badass seducer strikes out pretty often. Like as an example, just last night after a social occasion I was getting a coffee with my girlfriend in a restaurant in the city and I saw this girl at another table... well we had good initial chemistry and I moved fast and kissed her but unfortunately fucked it up, failed escalation / attraction expired, there's a bit more to the story since I ended up dating her once or twice after the failed escalation but long story short, NOGO. It's really disappointing considering I invested a bit in this girl and she was clearly attracted AT ONE TIME... but you just have to roll with the punches dude, women's attraction is worlds different from men's, and so many things can go wrong that are deal breakers from her side.

Thing is that here we recommend to MOVE FAST and seal the deal while you can... the game completely changes after you've laid her, once you're "approved for mating" her mind automatically turns to how she can lock you up as a secure provider... and she welcomes your investment as it allays her feelings of insecurity... whereas before you're "approved for mating", her mind automatically turns to assessing your value as a potential mate, i.e. whether you're a strong male with lots of sexual options... so any investment in the girl is actively harmful, it's much better to be quite dismissive of her and only reward her investment while otherwise ignoring her. That way you give the impression that your effort is going into seducing other girls who are better seduction prospects from your point of view... and if she wants your attention she'd better step up to the plate and put out.

I don't want to be too critical here, apologies if I sound critical but you made a ton of mistakes, which I can summarize by saying you moved too slow at every step. Not asking her out when you first met her... not taking her home from the wrap party and banging her... texting her a lot (that's an example of investment, and if you haven't laid her and you text her at lot, it lowers your value in her eyes)... spending multiple nights with her without attempting to isolate and lay her... letting her lead, sounds like she was taking you around in her city and introducing you to her friends and so forth... travelling a long distance to be with her... all that just screams that you're low on options, well maybe you aren't low on options and you just particularly liked this particular girl, but she doesn't know that. How she sees it is that you're investing a lot on her and you haven't tried to get sex in return.

Despite all that she gave you a shit ton of chances, because I guess she really liked you and connected with you, maybe you disqualified yourself as a lover early on, but she was still OK for you to court her with multiple dates... however you eventually disqualified yourself as a boyfriend too, by not being sexually aggressive enough. Every time she met you, she was expecting that you would take her to a hotel/etc and fuck her silly. Of course she would've given a lot of resistance to such an idea so you would've basically had to lead her there over the top of her protests and then do a hard push to get her inside. Problem is that you weren't really planning your date logistics at all, you were letting her lead. So that gave you very little control. Otherwise you could've e.g. taken her to a secluded spot for a picnic and laid her on a picnic rug... or in your car... or whatever.

Just bear in mind she isn't gonna help you out at all even if she really likes you, it's your job to make sex happen and it's her job to make it moderately difficult for you, just to see whether you're the badass that you appear to be. Having said that, if you had laid her within 2-3 days of meeting her, there woul've been virtually no resistance and if you'd pulled her from the cast party and laid her that night there would've still been almost no resistance (because it almost counts as a first meeting given you hadn't had much opportunity to connect with her previously). But with each successive date and text message the chances of laying her go down a lot.

I hope it helps. You're obviously not a stranger to seduction theory since you know about one-itis and so on, but nevertheless I recommend you read the inroductory post on girlschase.com titled "How to get girls: the last post you'll ever need" and then read other stuff until your eyes bleed, you are in a wonderful position to seduce shitloads of hot women so you just need to get your game sorted out and bolster your abundance mentality a bit. Well you probably have a good abundance mentality already but the problem is that occasionally a girl comes along who gets under our skin or some such, and makes us realize we don't have the abundance mentality that we thought we had

Take care dude. Good luck.

Ray

 

[HellAtlantic]

Holy crap Ray that was an excellent breakdown. Wow! Bravo bro.

 

[Smith]

Don't beat yourself up man.

We spent the night together and she was all over me, and in the morning she was being all 'cute and cuddly' with me and she told me how glad she was she had met me.

Even though you've made other small "mistakes" like Ray mentioned, I feel like this one was the most important one. You spent the night together and you didn't sleep with her! She wanted you to and imagine how disappointed she was! This would've changed the whole course of the seduction and her ex would be the last thing on her mind.

From my experience, girls who are still dealing with their ex can suddenly be very cold and it really is not about you at all, but I know how hard it is to take it personally and make it about you. (especially with whatsapp showing you if she's online...I know how u feel man lol) I think it's a harsh lesson you just have to go through a couple of times to know how to deal with your own emotions and insecurities.

 

[J.Master]

Hi guys,

Thank you so much for your thoughts. It's a massive eye opener, people I've spoken to about this have just said, give her some time or move on but no one has actually given me thoughts on where I went wrong.

I can at least use this as a lesson and a confidence boost that she was at least interested at first. Our paths will cross again in the near future (screenings for the film we worked on) so maybe with what I know and I can try again, who knows. I'm still questioning what my friend (girl) said about messaging her again in a week just to see how she responds.

I think from now I'm going to post a bit more on this forum and ask for advice before hand rather than after... you guys are great.

 

[ray_zorse]

Hey mate I can give you a few more useful thoughts having gone through something like this myself recently.

Well firstly seduction skills are really difficult, you shouldn't beat yourself up about it Even a badass seducer makes mistakes! Like I was getting shit-hot results a year ago, but now I'm out of practice, and when I met this girl recently that I clicked with, I quickly arranged a date but acted like a pussy, hesitated and moved too slow and so on. So result is I got friendzoned. Fuck! Well this really messed with my head, and I kept messaging her and doing all those things I KNEW I SHOULDN'T DO, but I thought "this one is different" because we hit it off etc... and she still appeared to be investing (although I guess that was only because I had friend value to her). I recently realized what a dickhead I was being, I thought I had the mental toughness and the abundance to do this, but I didn't. I suggest same for you -- I would advise to cut contact as much as possible. This was difficult for me because girl I mentioned is in social circle (actually the gym)... but I decided to go ahead and do it anyway. I recommend same for you. Honestly there's heaps more girls out there and you must remind yourself of this constantly... since I've been out of practice and I haven't been approaching regularly, I keep getting hungup on random girls here and there... because somehow they have a lot of value to me given I'm not meeting a lot of women at the moment. That's a big mistake.

Ray

 

[HellAtlantic]

Ray in your specific case what were some of the examples you can identify that made you realize your were friendzoned? What in particular did you notice to realize she enjoyed your company as a friend and not a lover?

 

[J.Master]

Thanks again for your advice.

It's interesting, about a year ago I started having a bit of a fling with a girl I worked with but she was seeing another guy (I came in as that was developing and it confused her - her friends hated me as the other guy was the 'safe option' and a friend of theirs). Eventually she picked him over me but I didn't know about him. I found out when he turned up as we were out having a drink, I called her out on it in front of him and her friends and really upset her and scared him, but I told her to save the tears. I didn't talk to her again, I was civil to her but refused to be her 'friend' as we were working together and it really started upsetting her but I stood tall on it. Anyway we eventually drifted apart but she's recently come back into my life and there's an energy and sexual tension there again - she's no longer with that guy and I feel I have her as an option now, any feelings I would have for her are gone, but she's there for sex if I wanted it.

As this actress is 3 hours away I'm wondering if I could play something similar... I actually did message her today (I know I know!) - and she responded, it was light and flirty and we chatted for a good 30 mins although she did cut it off suddenly saying she had to go to bed. What's interesting is she's been 'online' every night - and she doesn't drink... so she doesn't go out clubbing and this suggests to me she's not been on any dates. I'm wondering if I could flip this and take control again? Which is why I'm cautious not to end up in the friend zone so any pointers on that would be helpful!

I know your saying to cut contact, but I've got a couple of other girls in my own city with interest, so I'm wondering if I message the actress every now and again, keep it light and flirty... maybe this could be an option? Possibly even flip so she starts chasing a bit?

But ultimately I'm also wondering if calling her out on flaking on me and going cold is a good idea... not be harsh about it or butthurt but just jokingly bring it up in a way that says i's not cool?

 

[ray_zorse]

@Hell it was a bit of a tough call, the main things were (1) she wasn't investing with touch, I was touching her A LOT during the initial date and a fair bit at the gym, which is one of the things I did right, she didn't (2) she would end a conversation by randomly saying something like "oh, well... have fun, enjoy everything" or some such thing (I forget her exact words) in a kind of a vague tone of voice that I didn't like, it sounded low-investment to me. So what I decided to do was some tests, it went well initially, like she got off the exercise bike and I called over to her "hey [her name] can you see a red towel over there? ... bring it to me", she complied and I wiped my face and had a chat with her... there was some other investment on her part (despite her having flaked by not replying to a logistical text the previous week)... so I felt moderately excited about her and I decided to do another test... an hour after I left I texted her something like " I hey [her name] it was nice to see you today, I missed you! see you", I deliberately did not ask any question in this text or do anything that invited a reply, but I figured if she wanted to see me outside of the gym she'd take the opportunity to reply. She didn't. NEXT.

@J.Master NO NO, this is exactly what I knew you would want to do and it's suicide! The problem is your investment level... it's like the guy who buys a share on the stockmarket and the value tanks, he thinks "oh well I will just wait for the value to go up again and then sell it"... value goes down again, he thinks "oh now I have to wait a lot longer"... WRONG, the correct thinking is "if this share was at this price right now, would I buy it? NO... then SELL!". Selling is the right decision RATIONALLY, but it's the wrong decision EMOTIONALLY. Your suggestion is the same thing, you're just going to continue investing in this girl (albeit at a lower level -- exactly like the guy who now has $5 in a share that originally cost him $10 and he wants to keep the $5 there) and hope the value goes up again. Well the market says otherwise As to your comparison with the other situation, I'm guessing you laid the first girl (and she eventually began chasing after her r/ship ended), but you did not lay this second girl, so the comparison is not valid (that is, she will not begin chasing later) -- remember I said the game completely changes after you've laid her?

Anyway, what you've done now is, you've rewarded the girl for flaking on you by continuing to give her attention over text, this sends the message that you'll tolerate this kind of bullshit, and therefore puts you deeper in the friendzone. Don't pay any attention to what she SAYS over text, flirting costs her nothing and keeps you in her orbit, what matters is ACTION such as meeting you for a date, if she didn't do this she's not a prospect. Similarly your suggestion about calling her out on the flake and the going cold -- WRONG because (a) if you want to call someone out on something you have to do it STRAIGHTAWAY, otherwise you're inadvertently revealing the fact that it's caused you a lot of mental investment in the intervening time, which makes you look weak and needy (b) you can't call someone out for not giving you attention, because that's rewarding their behaviour with attention, and basically telling them you see them as higher value/status than yourself.

The correct approach: delete number, delete all text conversations, NEXT, and ignore her if she messages you. What to do in person is more tricky and it relies on your having good eye contact discipline which is something you have to practice. If you're in the same room as her DO NOT LOOK IN HER DIRECTION and DO NOT accidentally meet her eye. Same if she comes over to you, ignore her and let her invest by getting your attention and starting a conversation. (The person whose attention people want, is the person with social power). Then, respond to what she says, but don't invest in the conversation yourself. Instead fix her with intense eye contact so that she feels uncomfortable and blurts something out to fill the silence. This also gives you social power. Be polite but don't use any touch or investment. She'll get the idea. Anyway, doing this and also flirting with lots of other girls (and preferably leaving with them) in a way that she can see, is probably only way to right your ship at the moment. Not that you'd want to, my advice is more aimed at protecting you emotionally and helping you to value yourself and your attention better.

Ray

 

[J.Master]

Yeah you are right, followed your advice, deleted number and messages and on to the next one, plenty more around. Thanks again, came to my senses.

 

[Seppuku]

Hey JM,

Ray summed it up nicely, this one is totally over.

I've had some cases back in 2013, when I was still in the process of internalizing and digesting all my readings on this site. Even though I read about not chasing girls and not being needy, in spite of my best efforts this is exactly what I ended up doing with a couple of girls here, and of course it ended in a massive fuck up, very similar to yours. With time I moved on to other girls and improved my game, and completely gave up on these two girls. As soon as I gave up on them, and therefore stopped chasing them and being needy, the vibe with them changed (because I still happen to see them by circumstances), and interestingly about 6 weeks back, one of the girls even suggested that we have a drink together. LOL. Although it didn't happen for other reasons, it was in itself a small victory. But in order to get there, I had to 1) give up on her, 2) improve my abundance mentality and become successful with women, and 3) let time pass to "erase" my earlier wrong behavior in her mind. The big lesson is that the chasing and needy behavior are the biggest vibe killers and need to be eradicated.

So for you, it's much better to give up on her and to try other girls around. I would like to add that you shouldn't wait too much before taking action if you have a girl around. If you do wait too long, she will notice your attention, your lack of action, and will view you as just another guy orbiting around her. Don't wait too long and act.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[J.Master]

Thanks again for the advice...

Interestingly had a bit of a weird situation this week.

I do a part time morning job which involves handing out free newspapers. It's a great job for flirting and getting numbers.

One girl who has been coming past for last couple of months always stops for a brief chat and it's been quite flirty between us... I put a few 'testers' out there and she responded well so decided I should ask for her number.

I picked the wrong day to do it, it was raining hard and she was running late, I asked if she wanted to go for a drink sometime, but she replied back, slightly full of herself 'I have a boyfriend sorry' I made a joke and she laughed and that was that. No issue.

Interestingly the next day, she came over to me with a huge smile, and said 'I'm sorry about yesterday, I was rushing to get the train, I was really rude to you, I was thinking about it all day' - to be honest I didn't think she was rude at all, maybe a little brief about her answer and a bit full of herself, but I've had much worse responses in the past.

Again I made a joke and she laughed and then I said it was fine. She lingered for a second or two before leaving with a big smile.

Today I was in a really bad mood in work and very tired, when she came over she was looking a bit nervous, I didn't interact much and I'm pretty sure she sensed my low mood and just hurried off, still a pleasant exchange but not like before.

I'm just wondering why she felt the need to apologise? Like I said I didn't think she was rude at all... I'm questioning whether she maybe dropped the 'bf' line as a natural 'defence' as I did ask at the wrong time. Then again maybe she is just feeling awkward now as she has to see me every day.

I was thinking of saying something like 'If you're circumstances change and you ever want to grab that drink, you know where to find me' - maybe word it a bit better.

Any thoughts?

 

[Seppuku]

There could be several reasons for her reactions but I'm going to take a guess here.

I picked the wrong day to do it, it was raining hard and she was running late, I asked if she wanted to go for a drink sometime, but she replied back, slightly full of herself 'I have a boyfriend sorry' I made a joke and she laughed and that was that. No issue.

My gut feeling is, after a couple of months she views you as "just being flirty", so your asking for a drink out of the blue caught her off guard and triggered the boyfriend excuse.

That being said you reacted well, by making it a no big deal, and using humor.

Interestingly the next day, she came over to me with a huge smile, and said 'I'm sorry about yesterday, I was rushing to get the train, I was really rude to you, I was thinking about it all day' - to be honest I didn't think she was rude at all, maybe a little brief about her answer and a bit full of herself, but I've had much worse responses in the past.

Of course she was not rude. She just acknowledges she has been a bit tough with you.

Again I made a joke and she laughed and then I said it was fine. She lingered for a second or two before leaving with a big smile.

She seems more open, and her lingering around you was probably an open window for you to get in.

I'm questioning whether she maybe dropped the 'bf' line as a natural 'defence' as I did ask at the wrong time. Then again maybe she is just feeling awkward now as she has to see me every day.

Both are likely.

I was thinking of saying something like 'If you're circumstances change and you ever want to grab that drink, you know where to find me' - maybe word it a bit better

Not good! With "Your circumstances", you are recognizing the boyfriend excuse and take it at face value. She may, or may not, have a boyfriend. But if you mention "your circumstances" you make the boyfriend problem, a real one. If a woman throw a problem in the way, you should avoid acknowledging it. The "if you ever want to grab a drink" is not good also, because you leave the decision in her hand and give her the leadership.

I would try something like "Hey! Let's grab this drink anytime!" with a sexy smile and a wink. Doing so, you just wipe out the boyfriend excuse, and you also erase the uneasiness of the last few days.

By the way, if a woman tells you she has a boyfriend, your best course of action is to simply ignore the statement. It is much better if she doesn't mention this, of course (I've had girls who conveniently "forgot" to mention about their boyfriend, LOL). But if she does, there could be several situations:

1. she has a boyfriend, and she's loyal to him
2. she has a boyfriend, but she's thinking of leaving him should some better guy comes around
3. she has a boyfriend, but she's mad at him, and wouldn't mind cheating him as a revenge
4. she actually doesn't have a boyfriend.

It doesn't matter if its true or not, she just want to throw a barrier in your way. Your best course of action is to ignore the barrier and go on.

Keep us posted!
Cheers,
Seppuku

EDIT. I just want to add that if you hadn't waited so long, maybe you wouldn't get all these weird responses from her. Act faster next time

 

[J.Master]

thanks again for the great advice, will keep you updated for sure!

 

[J.Master]

Had a good interaction with said girl today. I brought up going for a drink today again (just said, that offer for a drink is still there) and she replied with a big smile - 'ok thanks, I'll keep that in mind'

I'll leave that one there now, I enjoy our brief little interactions, if she ever does want to go for a drink, bf or not, am sure she'll give me the hint.