Journal

[bobbyb112]

I went on a date tonight.

Good things were that I asked deeper questions, and we talked about things she found interesting. This is good, as I want to work on deep diving, things like hopes and dreams. It's good that she talked a bunch. All else being equal.

What wasn't so good was that she was sitting across from me, which is pretty hard to build sexual tension with. I'm making a rule for myself that she must must must sit next to me. So that I can, when the time comes, get close, and build tension. Not to mention touch. You can't really touch a girl when she's across the table from you. Moreover, I can hardly hear her when she's across the table. Which stinks. My new rule for myself is that she must must must sit next to me at the table. If not, for whatever reason, then I'll just leave. It almost never works out when she's sitting across, or in this venue 90 degrees to me. Rant over.

The trouble is you can't reward her for investing. You can't get closer, or turn up the sexiness, because you can't get close or touch. So even the deep diving doesn't hit as deeply, because you can't reward her, if you're not sitting close. That is my big takeaway from tonight. I've realized this lesson before, but still I didn't do it for some reason tonight. But now I know. It is my ironclad rule, now.

Anyway, another thing I was working on was feeling like I "deserved" a hot girl. Now, I know this sounds too much mental rather than just doing the actions. And I agree. 99% of the time I focus on just doing the right things, rather than the "mental" side of things. But in this moment in time, I think it was useful.

Because, the other day when I was kissing the girl from the last post, she said something like "you're so needy", when I was running my hands over her body. Now, I didn't ask what she meant, so I'm not sure if she was just teasing, or had a specific point, or what. But, I'm interpreting it for myself as being that I was acting timid with my hands and escalating, which could come from being nervous, because she was slightly more slim a girl than I usually get. Which has also happened with other girls, who were more attractive. Which means that maybe I didn't in the moment "feel" like I deserved hotter girls. Indeed, the girls I've been getting have been less attractive. Fair enough.

So, now I maybe should shift to "going for hotter girls". Including, thinking I "deserved" them (whatever that means). So anyway, tonight, I went in with that mindset. I think I actually repeated it in my head a little bit too, something like "I deserve the best". Now, I don't advocate for mantras and so forth. All I'm saying is that I did a little bit of that tonight, and it seemed to help.

I wasn't nervous, and challenged her more, which is good. Sometimes I didn't challenge as much before, or let them off the hook, which isn't good. So, this seemed to help.

Getting towards the latter part of the date, frankly there wasn't much of a vibe, for the reasons described above. But I invited her back for some wine anyway, and she said no I have to be up early tomorrow. As a side note, maybe I should screen for going out too late with girls on a weeknight. If they really need to be up early or whatever, then we'll just do it another day. I don't want to go out with a girl without the ability to hang out and potentially close. So that might be something to screen for.

But she said she had to get to sleep or whatever. Frankly I think both of us were kind of tired, so the conversation wasn't much there. Which is another reason not to go out late, I would think. I said I had to go, and got out some cash and gave it to her, asking her to pay the bill, so I could leave. I'm glad I did that, in that since it didn't seem like it was going to go anywhere, and I wasn't enjoying the interaction anymore, just find a way to leave. My time is valuable. I see nothing wrong with that.

I might text to see if she wants to go out again in a few days, just for the practice. But my prediction is she'll say no, because I shot my shot, and she said no, so the past-rationalization hamster will tell her she doesn't like me. Which is why you want to sleep together on the first date. Which is why you want to meet up early enough so there's time.

Poor women though! She wanted a sexy, scintillating evening with a guy like me, and through these snags it didn't happen. I guess this is just part of the learning process.

Thinking more about the "I am the prize" mindset, I haven't consciously used it for a while, but I remember a while back when I used it, and I did get some good (for the time) results. That is, it's helpful, if nothing else because it helps you charge ahead, into the unknown. For example, you don't hestate about approaching as much, or deep diving, or sexualizing, or pulling, or escalating, etc. Having that mindset streamlines a lot of it, basically because you just aren't getting in your own way by questioning what to do next. While is perhaps all game is. Allowing yourself to listen to your instincts. So for these reasons, it seems like a good thing to cultivate, to act faster, act more boldy, and to succeed more.

As looked at above, it's fun to break down the steps of the process and focus on each. For example, in this date, when we sat down, before ordering, she asked if I lived around there. Was this a signal to try to bounce us back to "have some wine there instead of here"? Maybe. Could have tried it. But I didn't feel comfortable taking that risk, and my beginner-ness doesn't know if that was enough interest to try to go for that, or if it was just opening chit-chat. I lean towards the latter. But, you never know.

For example with the steps, for the deep-dive, now, I like the idea of getting onto "hopes and dreams". If we have to settle for "things she really enjoys" (like art or sports or dance or whatever), then that can be good, too. But then at least you know how far to go. For the next step, sexual vibe, I like to think it comes from getting physically close (proximity), and then talking about sex topics in some sort of sexy way. Maybe, towards the end of that, tying it down by asking if she likes you. Something along those lines. I've done that before, but I'm sure there are other ways to do it.

Then for pulling, pull after that. The rest is somewhat "formulaic", in that if you've gotten to that point, then the escalation steps are pretty straightforward. But it's those middle sections where the meat of the work is done. So those are good to focus on.

For next time, focuses are 1. really getting deep on deep diving. 2. making sure she sits next to me instead of across (not difficult, just have to remember to do it). 3. continue to think "I am the prize. I deserve a hot girl", or whatever version of that makes sense to you. 4. create sexual tension by moving closer after deep diving, assuming she says interesting stuff. 5. maybe keep an eye on how late the date is, and making sure not to go out too late on a weeknight, or whatnot (not too hard, just have to remember to do it).

 

[bobbyb112]

I went on 2 dates today.

The first, she was a 22 yo who had recently moved to the area. We met up for a drink and talked. I tried out something different for myself, which was a more "cool" or "devil may care" feeling. I won't go into how I generated this feeling within myself, but it seemed to help some. It helped me ask questions, and make more sexual remarks, which is something sort of have to do to turn it more sexual.

I invited her home, but she said she doesn't do that on the first date. I tried joking like "haha I'm not a serial killer", but she still didn't want to come. We parted ways. She said she enjoyed it, although talk is cheap and doesn't really mean anything.

I did create some sexual tension by getting close. Although, she was sitting at 90 degrees at the table, which isn't super great for getting proximity. Also, that bar tends to play good, more sensual music on weeknights when it's less busy, but then on weekends plays rock music, and turns the lights up brighter. Which is super annoying, because it's much less conducive of a vibe. Maybe I need to find a new weekend date spot.

The second, she was 33 yo. She was in pretty good shape, though. We went to a bar nearby. We talked. I used the "devil may care" vibe, and it seemed to help. We sat on a couch, and I got physically close. I asked if she wanted to come home, and she said she had to get back to a sick dog she was taking care of for a friend. She had mentioned this earlier in the conversation, but I just think it's hilarious, because girls use this as an excuse not to go to yours, or whatever. "I have to let my dog out". It's just an excuse. But I think it's funny, because at the beginning, I could have said like "woah it sounds like you really need to take care of this dog, why don't we meet up another time when you're not stressed out about a dog". This after she has already traveled 20 minutes by car to meet up. I just don't want something like that as an excuse. In fact, I don't want any excuses. If this was sales, I would call it out. But I'm not quite sure how to elegantly say this for a seduction process.

For example, I could say "usually when a girl tells me they have to take care of a dog, it means they aren't really interested and just want to leave. Is that the case here?". But that's a bit too on the nose. Not elegant for seduction, me thinks.

On the plus side, I did enjoy having these interactions more, because I was conversing, making sexual comments, etc. That is good because I'm enjoying it. On the other hand, it's weird talking to people who aren't that interesting. I'm not sure if I should act interested or not. No, whatever she's talking about is not interesting. So do I show my boredom, or is there a better way to interact?

Maybe I'm just being sour grapes about it.

But seriously, I want to enjoy my interactions. Then again, maybe I just want results, lol. I think that is the answer. When you're getting results, it becomes a lot more fun. Oy vey.

Another element is movement. My usual process is to go to only one bar, then try to pull home. I know lots of guys use multiple locations, such as starting at one bar, then going to another, then home. I like to think you only need to do one location, so that's why I do it. But then again, I see the benefit of compliance by moving to multiple locations. However, my preference is just one, because it is simpler, it takes less time, I don't have to drink as much, and it costs less money. So I'm going to stick with 1 location for now.

When I'm deep diving, and talking about "sexual topics", I wonder how that needs to go. How "deep" do you have to go? Do you just need to find one thing she's passionate about, like a sport, art, travel, or maybe even work? What is needed here? Chase has the article about "what does she want; 8 questions to ask her". I guess I'm wondering, am I going deep enough with my deep diving? Am I turning it sexy enough with my sexual vibe part? Is she ready to pull when I've been going for the pull? You know, everything

What should be my objective on a date?

What's also annoying is I'm not sure "how close" I was with these girls. Were they close to coming home? Were they in fact totally far, but I just couldn't tell?

P.S. I saw that Chase used a situation in a previous post as fodder for one of his articles. That's sweet! If you're reading Chase, I love you. I mean, olive juice. Yes, that's what I said... olive juice

 

[bobbyb112]

I went on a date tonight.

The girl was 27 yo. We met at the cocktail bar and had a drink. I made sure to have her sit next to me, because that is a must-have rule for me going forward. We talked. I used my vibe of cute-and-sexy look, plus more mysterious eyes. I won't go into the specifics of mysterious eyes, but it's something I do.

I moved closer about halfway through, to amp up the tension. It seemed to help, in that there seemed to be more tension there. It's kind of weird, too, when you sit next to the girl, and then she doesn't look at you, she just looks forward. I'm not sure if it's because she is the one doing most of the talking (a good thing) or what, but sometimes they do that. I touched her a bit on the arm or leg during high points.

After she finished her drink I said I have a bottle of wine at my apartment and if she wanted to grab a drink there. She got all weird for like, multiple minutes, trying to say like "no, but I'd like to see you sometime this week". She got really weird about it, though. I let her struggle trying to come up with the words, because why not. Anyway, she got some words out. Then we talked for another 5 minutes or so. Then she got weird again, trying to say she didn't want to go home tonight, but might some other time. But she didn't have the right words for it, so it was just really awkward, for me. But I just let her struggle over her words, because I'm not charitable like that, I guess . Eventually, we both left, and she said she wanted to see me again, but talk is cheap, so I don't know.

I'm glad that she seemed to equate "grab some wine at my place" with sex, since at least then if she comes then you know it's on. This is just the same sticking point I've had with some girls back at my place, but here it happened before the pull even, rather than back at my place.

Sometimes girls use the excuse of not wanting to go back to my place because of safety. I'm not sure if this is just an excuse, or if there's something I could do to alleviate that more, that I'm not doing now. I'm leaning towards it just being something else, and her just using it as an excuse, since other girls have been fine with it.

I liked the vibe I had. I still didn't quite know how to transition to more sexual subjects. This is a sticking point of mine. How to transition from "deep dive" stuff to more sexual subjects. I did create a bit of a vibe by moving closer, which is good. If I felt it, then she must've. The next step is to get her to allow herself to feel that. Palm-face.

I also remember reading an article that said that this "stuff" doesn't work on girls 27 or older. I might believe that, based on my own experience. Regardless, though, I have been going on dates with them just to get experience, even if that is a thing. The experience is good, from deep diving to sexual tension to inviting home to escalate to sex. It gets you more familiar with the process.

I want to look for ways to have her invest, comply, and so forth. All the ways. The more invested, the better.

As a compliance device, maybe I could go and sit down, take off my jacket, then go to the bathroom, while telling her "watch my jacket will you?". I could come up with a whole list of compliance things to do. Maybe have her pick a table, while we're walking in, if multiple tables are available. But then if she picks a bad one, I want to just pick it anyway. Hmm. Another might be when we're meeting, text her and say "I'll be in the red shirt out front, call my name if I don't see you". Then you're reading your phone, and she walks by and says your name. It's compliance if you tell her to do it. Then even "come this way" as you walk into the bar. There are all these little things you could do to tell her to comply, which would do anyway. I wonder if this could backfire because maybe it's sort of transparent what you're doing ("don't tell me what to do"). Then again, it's just little things that can build up to better results.

Touching is another thing I want to improve. How? Hmm. What's good is the "sexy vibe", I think, which I used again tonight. I had been using it on dates before, but I had gotten away from it. I was also talking softly, which I like, because is more intimate. And gets her to lean in, sometimes. The girl tonight talked very loudly, which was weird. It's not very intimate, or sexy. I wonder if I should open a sexiness school for girls. Teach them the mannerisms to be sexy, and attract mates. Then again, those girls are out there, they just are "locked down" fast, lol. But still, this info needs to be learned, for the sake of man- and woman-kind!

Maybe I could record the audio of a date, and get coaching to see where I could improve. Or, I could write more detailed field reports, since that could help with specific feedback. Hmm. But I also want to keep the reports 80-20, so we'll see.

Adding this question: All 3 girls this weekend when I asked if they wanted to go home said something like "no, but I'd like to see you again". It's interesting because for whatever reason I have never gotten this response before, but now 3 girls in a row said it. Is this any different than just a "no"? On the face of it it could be, but at the same time it seems like a version of "I want to think it over", which 99% of the time means no. I'm planning on following up with them to see if they want to meet up again, just to see what happens. But I'm not counting on it. But we'll see.

 

[bobbyb112]

I went on a date the other day.

We met up, and went for a drink at a bar a few blocks from my place. We had a drink, deep dived, flirted, invited her back. Minimal resistance, closed.

I tried changing some things up in my process. First, I tried to sexualize, going more direct, right from the start. This is on an app, so I'm talking about app messaging. I did this, and I felt it helped a bit. Because then she knows "what I want", and can't claim otherwise in her head.

Second, I let myself be more "skeptical", and changed my demeanor to be more fun, yet more challenging. This is a balance I've been trying to strike, between being "interested", and being "discerning". Basically, you have to be both those things, but in a fun way. It's a vibe, frankly. And I struck it. It worked because I was asking about what she liked and so forth, and also challenging on her answers. For example, she said she liked art. I asked if she did it now. She said not because she doesn't have time. I said how much do you work? She said 40 hours a week. I said so you have plenty of time, if you wanted to.

Sexualizing was a little harder. But I broke the touch barrier, which is good. My hand was cold because of the ice water, so I put it on the back of her neck. My hand was also still cold, so I had her give me her hand, to warm it up. So I held her hand as we talked for a bit. Then I invited her back.

It's this vibe of being fun, yet skeptical. The mindset, for me, is sort of like "I enjoy being alone by myself more than I generally like being with people, so if we're going to hang out you better be fun and worth it". This is good because it makes you into the "chooser". From there, a lot of right actions flow. You challenge, tease, deep dive, escalate, etc.

So that whole vibe seemed to work well. I've done it before, but had sort of forgotten about it for a while. But it helps. I also like sexualizing right off the bat on the apps, because then she knows what's up. It also feels more "me", for lack of a better word. Which gives you more license to be "fun" on the date. It's all congruent, and perhaps most importantly, lets her know you're a sexual guy.

So, I want to use this vibe more. It seems to work. Moreover, it's more fun for me. I also improved my fundamentals. I got a pair of boots I like. Also a pair of jeans I actually like. So I was feeling sexy in what I was wearing. Which is another secret of success. Dressing in something that makes you feel good, and sexy. I will say, I have never had a pair of pants or jeans I like. But I found a pair, and I felt actually sexy wearing them. Enjoyable. Similar with the boots. I've never had footwear I've been thrilled about. But the boots were a step up. So all these things help.

 

[bobbyb112]

Yesterday I went on 2 dates.

The first we met up, walked around the block looking for a place to eat. Found a coffee shop, had some drinks, then back to mine. Escalated, and closed. One piece of tech I liked was walking with her outside before going into or finding a place to sit down. This can be good because you get the benefits of "moving" with a girl. For example, lots of guys use multiple venues for their dates, where they start at one, then bounce her to another, then home. It's effect because when you move together, it feels like you've spent more time with each other. This is also why it's good to move a girl in the bar/nightlife venue.

For the dates I've been doing, typically we've just met outside the place I want to go, then go inside. However, some that worked somewhat better, I accidentally did this moving around beforehand. So, why not do this on purpose. I like it because then I don't have to go to multiple venues. Depending on what time of day, or when in the week, many places are often pretty busy. Moreover, ordering drinks can get expensive. Plus I don't like drinking alcohol anyway, so I don't want to go to multiple venues.

However, with walking with her before going inside, this can get some of the same benefits, without having to "bounce" to multiple venues. I also enjoy walking, so that is good, too. Sometimes I've done the reverse, where we sit down and have a drink, then go and "walk around". This is similar. But I like walking first, because sitting down seems higher investment and compliance, so it feels like the interaction is progressing. Rather than if you sit down first, then walk, it can feel like the interaction is going backwards, from the girl's perspective.

Also with this one, I used more direct messaging on the apps. Being more direct with your messaging on the apps can make it easier to be on the same page when you meet, and for closing. She knows what's up. On the date, I challenged her, using the "I am the prize" frame, which seemed to help.

On the second date, I did much the same. Met outside, walked a block or two looking for a place to get a drink. Found a place, and went in. Talked. Bounced her back to mine. Escalated. Closed. It was pretty similar. Again, my messaging on the app was direct, which made things smoother later on. I found with more indirect intentions on the app, the might be more likely to meet up, but less likely to close when you do meet up with her. So, by being more direct on the app, you might go on fewer dates overall, but close more of the dates you do go on.

Again, I tried to use the "I am the prize" frame. It sort of worked. I can't say my conversation was that great, although I did try to challenge her more. Frankly both these, I believe, were more cases of good screening, and the girls wanting something casual. I wouldn't say my game "helped" too much. But, it also didn't get in the way, which is a good thing.

For the second girl, who I liked better, I made sure to go multiple rounds with her. The first one, she left fast after the first round, because she had to get to work. For the second, we went multiple, and then she left. I want to follow up with her, just to see if she wants to meet up again, but my guess is no. Retention is something I want to work on. That goes with all of it. For example, deep diving well builds a personal connection that has her thinking of you as someone who truly knows her, rather than (just) a good bang. The second part is, indeed, being a good bang. Because that's important, and girls will come back for a good bang with a sexy guy. I'm working on that. I last decently long, using adapted missionary. I'm not sure if or how I could do things differently to allow her to orgasm better.

Another question, when you're doing adapted missionary, with you on your elbows on top of her, does that make it harder for her to breathe, if you're sort of putting some weight on her? it seems like it would, and would be uncomfortable. Although I might have just told you that some of the girls are on the bigger side. I guess that is something to work on, too.

 

[bobbyb112]

A girl we'll call Rita reached back out after our first date 10 months ago, and we went on a second date.

We had gone on a date 10 months ago, and got on somewhat well. We went back to mine, and kissed, taking off her shirt and bra, but not pants or underwear. She had left that time. I texted a few days later, saying I enjoyed meeting up and if she wanted to meet up again. She said no, not interested. I remained chill, saying cool no problem.

She texted the other day saying something like that if I was up for it she wanted to try going out again, because before she had something that was making her act weird. I said sure and we set up another date. It shows how if you remain chill, girls can sometimes come back around, and want to go out again, for whatever reason.

For this second date, we got drinks at a cocktail bar. I invited her back and we went back to mine. We escalated, and then fooled around for a while. She used her hand and mouth, but only if I had a condom on. We were both totally naked. At one point she got on top of me and rubbed her vagina on my dick. We kissed and so forth. It went on for a while.

Many times I went to put my hand or fingers on her pussy, she moved them away. Or, I would start rubbing it, and she would want slower. At one point I put one finger in slowly, but she said it hurt. Then I did it again, and it hurt again. So I took it out.

She also gave resistance early on with her pants. But as we got going, she took them off, then we were totally naked. I suppose this was all last minute resistance. At the same time, she didn’t seem to want to do it.

I wonder if the move is to ask her why she doesn’t want to, or what’s going on. Maybe it’s something emotional for her, like getting over a boyfriend, or something. At the same time, I’m not sure if it would help. You just keep messing around and tempting her, until she finally says sure and you have sex.

It went on for a while. We met at the bar at 7. She left my place at 9:30. My guess is we went back to mine at 7:30 or 7:45. So it was a while fooling around.

Earlier on, when at the bar, for pulling, I asked if she wanted to have some wine at my place. She deflected saying she wasn’t finished with her drink. It was like 3/4ths full, so I didn’t plan on waiting for her to finish the whole thing. A few minutes later, I said let’s go back, to watch a cat video we had been talking about. She was hesitant, and finally I just “took her hand” and said let’s go. I remembered Chase saying how sometimes you have to say “let’s go”, take her hand, and make it happen. I guess that’s an example here. Your leadership is what leads to moving things forward.

For fooling around, I suppose I could have said like “just the tip”. It’s hilarious how cliché some of this stuff is. But they don’t say it for no reason. I could have used this reasoning with her, and at least see if she went for it.

My style isn’t to push too far beyond explicit boundaries. She said she didn’t want to have sex, and I said that was no problem. I was chill and just kept doing what we were doing. But I suppose I could have gotten out of my comfort zone to try “just the tip”, and see if I could bust through some of that LMR.

She eventually left. I wonder if she would want to meet up again. I suppose two times meeting up, escalating at home, but it not leading to sex, is too much to overcome. On the other hand, is it part of some super secret plan of hers to get a guy to wait until the third date to have sex to make him love her? Do girls do this? Not sure.

In any case, she was on the more attractive side. Slim, muscular body (no, she wasn’t a guy), with short hair (still not a guy, but not my favorite). So it’s good to have fun with a more attractive girl.

I guess my LMR skills need work. Also, in general you want to go as long as you can, trying to change her mind to have sex. But, I get tired of it after a while, and want to go to sleep. So, if you want to improve, make sure to push through, even when you’re tired and just want to go to sleep.

 

[bobbyb112]

I went for a drink with a girl.

She was 29 yo from an app. She was okay. She used to do cool hobbies/stuff, but now she was “too busy”, even though she had a 9-5 job. It’s funny to me how the bar for if I like a girl can be “does she have hobbies/ anything creative that she enjoys doing”. Many don’t, though. It’s annoying, because I try to appreciate the rest of her. But if she doesn’t do anything creative, then that’s kind of well, we have nothing to talk about.

Her vibe was interesting. She didn’t make a ton of eye contact, and looked away a bit. I’m not sure if this means she didn’t feel comfortable with me, or didn’t like me at all, or was just shy. It wasn’t very nice for me, though. But, I guess I sometimes do the same thing. Like, when you’re talking, you don’t make as much eye contact with the other person. At the same time, you’d make an effort, if you liked them. So there’s that.

I touched her some. It was weird, though, because she was sitting in her seat next to me at a table, and was sort of on the far side of her seat. I sat more diagonal, to face her more, until she opened up, but she kept facing forward. So again, maybe she didn’t like me. Now that I’m starting to think about it, I don’t think she liked me very much.

I made a bit of an effort to touch, like touching her arm on a high point, or her back. I also used the cold-hands routine as an excuse to touch her hands/ neck. But hey, my hands were cold, from holding the drink.

I leaned back in my chair a bit, as a way to encourage her to chase, or just otherwise not seem too interested. Problem was, then, that we can’t hear each other. So I have to lean in.

Moreover, besides me touching her arm or back, we never really touched too much. How do you get better and better touch, when sitting in chairs that are miles away from each other? Questions.

I’ve had girls in the past that sort of faced forward and didn’t turn towards me too much. But the girls who ended up closing with usually had something cool I could latch onto to ask them about and appreciate about them. Like I said, it’s weird with girls who don’t do anything interesting, and then you can’t appreciate them as people. I don’t know what to do there.

On the plus side, at some point I started smirking more. I’ve been wanting to try this. It gives you a more sexual, sly, knowing feel. I did this, and I think it helped. We never really got on a strong sexual vibe, I don’t think, but it did help make things more fun.

I tried to pull partway through, after like 1 hour. She said “no, you’re a stranger”. So we kept talking. I get the brush off, but the “you’re a stranger” part feels weird to me. I probably could have done a better job deep diving and getting to know her. But, like I said, she was boring, so what do you do?

We kept talking for a while. Much of it was light. Which is fun, but probably doesn’t lead to strong connections or sexual vibes. That is, joking around is fun, but not sexual. So, I might need to shift into that more. Upping the sexual vibe. I think the number one universal way to do that is to get closer. But how do you do that on chairs? Maybe just do it.

At the beginning, she tried to sit diagonal from me, but I said to sit next to me so I could hear her. That was good. Can you imagine a girl sitting diagonal from you on a 4-person table? What the heck? None of that.

Maybe I could find a venue where sitting down you can get closer to each other. Like a bench seat, with a little table in front. I might know a place for that. That way, you can be next to each other. The vibe might be more sensual, too, which is good, at the place I’m thinking of.

Later on, I asked a second time if she wanted to come back for some wine. She said no, you’re a stranger, again, but that she appreciated the persistence.

I think it’s exceedingly unlikely that if I text her in 2 days to meet up again, that she won’t come out. But, I’ll probably try, just to see what happens. We got along alright, just not famously well.

But I think I can improve my venue selection. This place is sort of brightly lit, for a cocktail place. A different place might be more sensual. And sit close to each other. Only downside is it might have loud music so you can’t hear as well. But, you can lean close to be able to hear each other. So it might be better.

Also, what do you do if a girl just won’t get comfortable? Is in her head, not letting go at all, to have a normal, flowing conversation? That seems to be one trouble for me sometimes. Is it me? Is it her? Could I be putting her at east better? Maybe she just doesn’t like me? Hard to tell.

Also, too, go for younger girls. Late 20’s girls seem to have their “anything less than marriage, no” shields up. Or am I imagining things? Outside perspective might help.

I give it a 2% chance she wants to meet up again.

So, a few things: 1. How to put a girl at ease so she can have a normal conversation. 2. How to deep dive when she doesn’t have anything interesting going on in her life (reading, taking walks, and taking care of her dog do not count, so are just normal person things). 3. How to escalate physically and sexually, in a given venue (like barstools or chairs next to each other. A couch or bench seems easier for that sort of thing).

Also, my typical date setup is to meet at the location and do that one location, for 1 hour or whatever, and then invite back to mine. I know lots of people do multiple venues. Or (gasp) multiple dates. I see how this could be helpful. But, I don’t like drinking, so that sounds terrible. Also, you have to get up and move, which sounds bad. Plus, if you do it too much, buying drinks at multiple venues can get costly. So, I’d like to stick to one venue, if I can.

One way to help this would be to meet outside of one venue, but then walk with her to another venue where you’ll actually go. This way, you get her “moving with you”, in a seamless way. This builds the familiarity factor more, because you’ve moved around together. I might try to do this more, because it sort of can’t hurt.

 

[bobbyb112]

Question: Let's say you meet up for a date, it goes okay, you invite her back for a nightcap, she says no. You want to end the date so you say you have to leave. Before leaving, do you walk her to her car (parked a block or 2 away from the bar)? It's dark out at that point. Let's assume my objective is to give myself the highest percentage chance of having a second date.

On the one hand, I don't want to seem like a chump. On the other hand, she is a person and I don't want to undermine her sense of autonomy. What is walking-her-to-her-car etiquette?

 

[Railer]

What is walking-her-to-her-car etiquette?

Unless she was being rude, it's perfectly okay - and you can use the extra time to persist and put out a new invitation.

She can take you to your place, or drive you to your car, which, if nothing else, should count as a move and strengthen familiarity.

As a general rule:

"Nothing is ever a big deal, unless you make it one."

 

[bobbyb112]

Nothing is a big deal. I like that. Plus potentially having her drive you someplace, that's good compliance/investment/move/familiarity.

On a different note, I'm thinking deeper on some ideas Chase talks about...

Namely, value versus attainability.

I had a text conversation where we set up the date on a Monday, for Thursday night. On Tuesday night, I texted:
me: is it Thursday yet ;P
her: I know right??
her: is [bobbyb112] short for like [Robert]?
her: I'm prob way off
Wednesday:
me: excited to meet you tomorrow
her: Hey I can't now I'm sorry !!

Now, my thinking as to why I didn't answer her texts from Tuesday, is because 1. it's a dumb question 2. it doesn't further the connection 3. I'm busy and chatting over text is dumb. Thus, I chose to ignore it. However, she might have gone into auto-rejection, because she did invest effort, by guessing what my odd name was short for, and also showed consideration, by saying "I'm prob way off". Thus, she offered investment, but I essentially turned it down. This lowered my attainability, causing her to auto-reject.

This got me thinking about a concept Chase talks about a fair amount, value vs attainability. Basically, you want your value to be high (specifically lover value instead of provider value), and attainability even keel, so that she believes you're winnable. That she can access your value. Because, as Chase points out, if a guy has just a few things, like fashion, posture, confidence, etc. (fundamentals), that are good, then they are seen as "high value". Then, the challenge becomes making sure you seem attainable to the girls.

In some article, Chase says how early in his seduction career, he didn't pay much attention to attainability. But, as he leveled up his fundamentals, being attainable to girls became then next thing to work on. I can see how this would be the case. Now, I don't know how my fundamentals stack up against the rest. It seems like most guys have decent enough fundamentals. But, I think looking at attainability, and viewing things through this lens, can be useful.

For example, I've found that girls I've went to bed with, on the date, I've basically found something interesting about them I can truly appreciate. A hobby, activity, thing they do, etc., that I can really show genuine interest in. Whereas some other girls, who either I haven't been able to draw something interesting out of, or don't have anything interesting they do, don't say yes when I invite them back. Why? Because I wasn't attainable, by finding something I could show genuine interest in about them.

I read through a bunch of Chase's articles on being attainable. A lot of it is stuff I've been doing in general, like looking for interesting things to genuinely show interest and appreciation about. I've kvetched in previous entries here about when a girl doesn't have anything interesting about her, and how not only is it less fun of a conversation, but then she doesn't go to bed with me. So the challenge is still there of finding something "interesting" about her to talk about. But when you do have it, that's nice.

I can also pay attention to when a girl potentially auto rejects, and if I can pinpoint that moment, so I don't trigger or cause it. Honestly, thinking back to prior dates, I don't know if I often "trigger" it, but as I keep coming back to, if I can't find something to really genuinely appreciate about her, then when I ask her home (which I do every time, as a matter of practice), or make a move (again, I do it every time, as a matter of practice), then she doesn't go for it.

And some other times, we have gotten back, and I go for a move, and she resists. And I back up, and talk about whatever the hobby that I could appreciate about her (and have her show me, if applicable), and then move forward again to escalate, and end up together. This happened twice, I can think of. So, again, this seems to work because it raises my attainability.

I think the thing to work on is drawing out "interesting" things about them, and really appreciating those. The skill to the extent I can do that, the more attainable I'll seem, and the stronger connection she'll feel. And for before the date, like texting beforehand, I should probably do it, and just joke around, to show I'm not taking it too seriously, but also not ignoring her either. I may have gone too far in the direction of ignoring her texts and then come across as unattainable.

But if anyone else has different reads on the situation, I'd be open to hearing those. Cheers!

 

[bobbyb112]

I've seen this girl 4 different times, which is almost the longest I've seen a girl before. We slept together the first 3 times. On the fourth, she had a UTI and was on antibiotics, so she couldn't have sex, but we got dinner and hung out.
Since this is a new experience for me, a few questions:
1. How often should I see her? Should it be once every 7-10 days, or 2 times a week? I want to follow the once every 7-10 days cadence, to keep it fresh. Then eventually, perhaps, allow her to become a girlfriend. On the other hand, I worry perhaps it might be too long, and she'll grow uninterested. But I guess it's better to risk that, rather than starting off your potential relationship too fast, and then having it seem like it isn't "advancing" enough later, as Chase talks about.
2. Should I see her while she has the UTI and can't have sex, or should I wait until it's healed (2 weeks) to see her at all? I'm trying to maintain my lover/ bad-boy frame, but also don't want to come across as a jerk by not hanging because we can't have sex.

She asked something along the lines of should I get off the apps, what do you think about relationships, something to that effect. In other words, a light version of "where is this going?". I said that it'd be too soon to be exclusive, and that I didn't want to be the one to tell her she had to get off the apps, or otherwise not date or sleep with other guys. She more or less accepted that, also saying maybe we could do what we were doing for a few more months, and then reassess. I also said she could sleep with other guys, just to tell me for health reasons. She said she probably wouldn't/doesn't sleep with more than one guy at a time, so she wasn't going to anyway.

I think I did a decent job of holding my frame here. Basically, being cool and chill, and not doing anything I didn't want to do, or give up any freedoms I didn't want to. In this case, she was pretty lightly testing the "where is this going, should we be exclusive?" question. I'm sure it will become more pointed or forceful later on. As Chase says, FWB set ups only later generally no more than 3 months. And to have a girl become a girlfriend, you run the first 3 months about the same as you would for a FWB relationship anyway. Then, if you want her to become a GF, you sort of let it happen.

So, I imagine that around that time she might push for it more, and then you can either cut bait or let her become a girlfriend. So I believe I have the right approach, now just have to execute it.

On a different note...

I found a way that works for me to have frame almost all the time. I won't say what it is, specifically. But it helps me speak and act with frame. That sounds weird, but it's true. If I was approaching more right now, it would definitely help. It's helping at work, which is good, but I just haven't been approaching much lately. But I'm sure it would work there, too.

I think an easy way to set a 7-day cadence is just to say "same time next week?" after a given date. This way, it sounds easy and natural, and it follows the longer time period, rather than seeing her 2 times a week, which gets into BF/GF territory. Or, if I did want her to be a GF, should I start seeing her 2 times a week as soon as possible? And, if she asks "what are we", do you say probably BF/GF, even if it's only a month in? Or should you want until at least 3 months to say that? So many questions.

 

[bobbyb112]

Last night I brought a girl home but we didn't sleep together.

We met for some food. We talked. I deep dived her. I think I did a better job deep diving her than I usually do. I was asking good questions, getting to things that mattered to her. I moved her, from one table we were sitting at, across from each other, to a bar, where we could sit next to each other. I invited her back. We started walking, but she said she had to go to work and we could hang out after her work. She had mentioned work before, so this was not out of the blue. We agreed for her to text me when she was leaving work, and she would come by my place.

She did. When she got to my place after, she was a bit awkward. She was a bit awkward before, too. We sat down to put on a movie. I kissed her. She ignored it/ said no. She wasn't disgusted, and not uninterested, I guess, just wasn't into it. We watched the movie more, and I tried kissing her again. She said she had a sore throat, so it wouldn't be a good idea.

We went for a walk outside. She suggested we do something the next day, like go to a museum or something. We sat on a bench, then went back to my place. She said she had to go. We tried making tentative plans for the next day, but she said she had a doctor's appointment, and couldn't make any definite plans.

Unfortunately I'm leaving out a lot of details that would help show where my assessments are coming from. But here they are.
One is scheduling. I scheduled us with only 2 hours until her work started. We didn't get seated until 20 minutes after anyway, so by the time it was time to pull, there really wasn't time. I think it would have been 60 mins to pull. I want to make it a rule for myself to schedule at least 3 hours before anything I know the girl has to go to, to give us time.

I deep dived better than I have before. As evidence, the fact that she came back after work. I was skeptical that she would. But she did. So at least there was some sort of real connection there. She also wanted to meet up the next day, or suggest hanging out. I was like, cool that you're suggesting this, but we're already hanging out.

I didn't set a good enough lover frame, from the texting before the date, and then on the date. With texting beforehand, I wasn't as sexual/ intentful as I have learned to be. Meaning, I have learned from experience that I want to make it clear that I'm not looking for anything really serious. I didn't do that this time, which didn't help later.

During the date, after deep diving, when you want to get closer and more intimate, we were sitting on bar chairs at an angle. How. The. Heck. Do. You. Get. Physically. Close. Sitting. In. Bar. Chairs. Or. Any. Other. Chairs. That. Aren't. A. Bench. ? This is a HUGE sticking point for me, and I don't know what to do about it. So, we weren't really physically close while sitting there, although I did ask about what adventurous or spontaneous things she did. She said something, which was good qualifying/ investment/ compliance. That was helpful.

After about the sexualizing part, she actually pulled out her phone and was reading something. I ignored it for a second, then said what's going on. She said she was reading my text saying what I wanted ("nothing super serious"). She was probably looking at this again to figure out what I wanted. Which is good, because it means she was thinking about sexual stuff with me, and trying to see if I wanted that too.

She asked what I meant by what I had said. This is where, if we were sitting close, I would get close to her, and say in a smooth, sultry tone, exactly what I had said in the text. However, we feet apart from each other, on bar seats, so I said I'm open to whatever. She said something like "you mean you're not opposed to a relationship?". I said right. This was miscommunication, because we could barely hear each other. Because we were not close, and the music in the bar was loud too.

We were quiet for a minute. I said I don't know what you have after, but want to go watch a movie at my apartment for a bit? She said sure.

But before, with not being physically close, and miscommunication with the music and the text, I think she thought I wanted a relationship. Then the rest happened, as related above. This is where the sexualization part of the seduction went off track. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU SEXUALIZE WHEN YOU ARE AT A BAR SEAT FEET AWAY FROM EACH OTHER AND CAN'T HEAR THE GIRL?

Anyway, I've had a number of women back at my apartment over the time, and many times it has led to kisses which aren't reciprocated. This is where I am in my seduction journey. Back at apartment, I go for the kiss, she sits like a statue, and leaves if I push it any farther.

Rant time. Reading Chase's article today about "girls don't want you to move slow", I think it's hilarious, because I do move fast with them, and it doesn't often work. The funny part is, I've never tried moving slowly with a girl, so part of my wants to try it to see if it would work. Of course, I know it won't because of the way the world is. But moving fast hasn't worked either, so why not try it? It was funny with the girl yesterday, because she seemed sincere about wanting to meet up the next day to go to a museum or whatever. I was flattered that a girl would want to see me a second time. Usually they don't, after escalations that go nowhere. I thought about taking her up on it. The alternative, with my current approach is to plow ahead until she leaves, then never hear from her again. I sort of did a middle road, indeed kissing her again, but not jumping at the opportunity to set something up for another day either. My point is, maybe we should give slow a chance! But no. I know fast is the way to go.

So time to solve the sticking point. 1. sexualizing during date when sitting miles apart. 2. escalating at home when she is uncomfortable/ not ready for it. For #2, does her coming home with you mean she is ready for escalation? Is it not necessarily? I try every time a girl is back at mine, and I have no hesitation about doing it. I just want to make sure I'm not missing something, because it doesn't work as much as I would like. As for #1, it seems like when I do get close at this point in the date (after deep diving), and she doesn't move away, you can feel a more humid vibe. Although, sometimes when you do that, on the date, she sits like a stone, and then you know she won't end up coming back to yours, when you invite her. So my diagnosis is to just do every part of the process well and right. Deep dive well so she feels comfortable and connected. Get close so you can ramp up the sexual vibe. Let her "decide" to herself that she indeed wants to have sex with you. Invite her back and escalate, to close it out.

I guess another thing to try is to disqualify yourself as a boyfriend candidate. I'm not sure how to do this, necessarily, but it could help by making girls not think I'm a boyfriend candidate. I remember Chase said when he had a good apartment, when girls got back, they suddenly saw him more as a boyfriend candidate, so put the brakes on. And when he was in a little crappy place, he had this issue less. My apartment is okay. It looks nice enough, and it's downtown, in a not huge city. I would hope girls wouldn't see this as a reason to put the brakes on. It's not that nice of a place, lol. Do I need to find a crappier apartment? And/or otherwise tamp down the provider value more, and ramp up the lover value?

If anyone has any other insights they feel might be helpful, feel free to share!

 

[bobbyb112]

I slept with a girl the other day.

We met on an app. Texting, she seemed pretty open to something short-term. As we'll see, she was new to town (as Chase said, new to town girls are much easier). We met up at a bar. She arrived first, so went in and sat at the bar. Luckily there weren't too many people there yet, even though it was a Friday. Also, the music wasn't playing too loud yet. Later on, the music there on the weekend tends to get much louder, and it's hard to have a conversation.

I arrived and sat at the bar next to her. We talked. I deep-dived, finding out cool things about her. It was much easier than some other times, because she volunteered info to lead the conversation, like about the musical instruments she played, and other hobbies she did, and why she liked them. It was actually pretty easy. That is, she opened up pretty readily. Also sitting on the bar stools, I turned to her, like at a 45 degree angle roughly. Doing this, my hand on my leg was already touching her leg, which is good incidental contact. She immediately also turned to face me at an angle, which is good compliance/investment.

We talked, talking about cool hobbies. That went pretty quickly and smoothly, with my somewhat skillful questions, and her being pretty open and forthcoming about those topics. Then I felt as we transitioned into the sexualizing part. Here, I wasn't quite sure how to turn it in that direction, at least not verbally. She did some of the work. I asked what she liked about xyz, and she said how the place was cool, and how they'd go skinny dipping there (sexualizing the conversation, turning the conversation to sexual topics). Looks like she was gaming me . I did lean in and get closer to her, to ramp up the sexual tension more. She leaned into it as well. I asked to look at her necklace, which also brought us closer together. I tried to think of a way to sexualize the conversation. I asked how far ahead she usually planned, like if she was spontaneous. She said how she likes to live in the moment, because you can enjoy things, or something like that. I swear, she was gaming me! I agreed, and said much the same, in my own words.

I put my hand on her leg a bit more, as I sat close and was close to her. We got on the topic of travel at that point. I didn't know how to sexualize it, so passed the ball to her. I asked what she liked about xyz city. She said how there was a statue of a woman in mid orgasm, which the people thought might come alive, because they believed in witchcraft at the time. She said how she was actually thinking about it all week. Well, this was clear enough a signal for me. We talked about something else for a second, then I suggested we get some wine at my place. She asked how far it was and I said 5 min walk. She said sure.

I paid the tab and we walked to me. I wasn't sure what to say when walking. Obviously it would be good to say something with sexual/flirty undertones. But I couldn't think of anything. So I sort of didn't say much. We got back and sat, and she was immediately cuddled up next to me. So I escalated from there, and she was very willing. We had sex once, then chilled for a bit with a show on, then again, then she left. I said she'd text me, and I said I'd like to see her again.

So, analysis. The deep diving part I'm definitely getting better at. That is, I can recognize where I need to probe further, and what I want to ask about. This includes things like why she likes what she likes. Then there was the next stage, sexualizing. Obviously, she gave relative softballs here, and I just went along with it. I did get physically closer, which she seemed excited by, which is good. This is a good test as to how receptive she is. And it ramps up the tension. Now, she came up with the two sexual conversation topics. I'll give myself credit for recognizing them. I also had her show me the necklace, getting us closer. That's just a quick tactic you can do, but I did it then to get physically closer.

After the second sexual topic she had brought up, and the waiting all week, I figured she had "made her decision". So I asked to go back to mine, and did all the rest. I'm not sure if there's anything you need to do, necessarily, in the "deciding" stage, after sexualizing. Maybe it is just recognizing it, and then pulling, to hit the escalation window.

As mentioned at the beginning, girls new to town, or just visiting, are way easier. Because they don't know anyone, so they don't feel any judgment. Same with tourists. Love to see it.

Sexualizing is still a sticking point of mine. How do I turn it sexual? I suppose I could just touch her more. What if she is far away, or doesn't respond to it? That has happened in the past. This girl gave all the right answers. Maybe I can just steal her techniques .

I think turning 45 degrees to her at the beginning was good. Why? Because it shows that I'm interested in her, and invites her to open up as well. If you're just facing forward at the bar, not looking at each other as much, it's harder to connect. Same with if you're sitting next to each other. When sitting next to each other, I'll probably try to face at a 45 degree angle to start off. It just shows that you're friendly and interested in her, and interested in connecting and getting to know her, in addition to your questions.

As for touch, it worked out here. You know how some girls just right from the start seem like they're open to you, and if you were to touch or get close, they'd be okay with it? She was one of those. And those girls are the ones I've been converting. But now I need to figure out how to get the non-easy cases. All a learning process.

For sexualizing, it does seem like the "how far do you plan ahead" and "do you do anything spontaneous" helps for qualifying for, well, spontaneity. Meaning, spontaneous sexual/romantic encounters. So that is a good question for that. Maybe that can be in the repertoire for sexualizing, although I do want to read some articles on sexualizing to see what else I can do.

This girl had a way to turning almost any topic sexual. I could do that as well. Although it tends to look somewhat creepier if a guy does it. That is, a girl saying sexual stuff is nice and good, because it shows she's thinking about that when with you. But a guy needs to be more subtle because it can put a girl's defenses up a bit. So, the girl tonight was making it somewhat easy for me. But, you have to close the easier ones. That's the first step to closing the harder ones. Learning.

I'm glad that I could recognize the need to shift into sexual topics. It's an escalation window, a place to move the interaction forward. Now I just need to figure out how to do it, in a smooth, calibrated way.

 

[bobbyb112]

I have a small issue I haven't heard discussed.

One girl I was seeing texted me "what is your last name?". I texted it. Next time we met up she said she looked on the internet and saw what I did for work, and said the photo was nice (my job is nothing crazy). After that next meet up, she said she didn't want to see each other anymore. I don't know if this was a coincidence or not. But the point is, my gut told me not to text it to her, I ignored my gut, and she didn't want to see each other after the next time we met up. Not sure if it's a coincidence or not.

With another girl, we were texting to meet up for a first date. She asked what my last name was. Long story short, I didn't tell her, and we didn't meet up. With this one, it seemed like her issue was that we "didn't know enough about each other" to meet up. That's its own issue, but still, what is the best way to tell a girl I don't want to share my full name?

Basically, it seems like if I tell my full name and she finds my job online, then she won't think I'm a lover, and then it's over. How can I handle this?

Another question. How do you handle it when girls ramble like they do, saying a bunch of words, and not having a point?

In this case, it was after she came over and we had sex. So it's not like it was preventing moving things forward. We were just hanging out watching a show afterwards.

I basically did a few things. I zoned out and paid attention to the show we were watching. I tried engaging in the conversation by relating on the emotion. But that only encouraged her to go off on another rambling jab. I tried to summarize what she was saying, but that only encouraged her to talk.

I know this is a classic man-woman thing, where the girl rambles, the guy zones out, she says "you're not listening", I say "you're not getting to the point". How can I point out to a girl that she is rambling and tell her to get to the point? Should I just zone out and wait for her to try to pay attention to my reaction? Or should I explain why rambling is annoying and that she should just get to the point? Or use social pressure, like the bored or skeptical look?

I know the guy version of this is trying to "solve the problems". I feel like I don't do this too much. Or, when she's saying stuff, just give a joke solution, to not take it too seriously, and make the conversation fun.

 

[bobbyb112]

I had a date with a girl. We met at a bar, but it was crowded, so we walked along the street. We got a drink at a food truck, and sat down on a bench and talked. It went alright. We related on stuff. I'm not sure if I got her "hopes and dreams", but it was solid. Then I shifted into a more sexual mode. Which basically consisted of me putting myself in a more sexy mode. We continued talking, with more allusions to sexual topics.

She asked if I lived nearby. I said yes walking distance. I waited a beat. Then said I have some wine at my apartment do you want to grab a drink there? She said sure. So we walked to my place. We continued to talk along the way, with me in a more sensual mode.

We came in and I used the bathroom and then we sat next to each other on the small couch. I went for a kiss. She didn't resist necessarily. I pulled back and talked for a sec. Then I went for another kiss. This time she gave some light resistance. I tried to escalate a little, and she said that she didn't "do this" on a first date. I said, "we're just hanging out". We sat and talked a bit. I went in for more kisses, but she sort of shied away from them each time. After a few minutes she said she was going to go.

Reflections:

I was working on starting off with a "building comfort" approach, and then after a bit, switching into "sexual topics". I sort of did this. I feel like I can do a better job of getting to hopes and dreams. Unfortunately, though, most girls don't have hopes and dreams. But then again, the did when they were younger, so I could ask about that. That might be a good and interesting thing to deep dive about.

Switching to sexual vibes, it's easy enough for me to put myself in a sexual state. But then transferring it to her, does it work? Hard to tell.

She did ask where I lived, which I took as a sign to invite her back. I did this, and she came. When at the apartment, though, like many times before, when I go for the kiss, they are like "naw". I go for the kiss a few other times, and then they are like "I'm going to leave". I guess my question is, was she not "ready" to escalate yet? Did I jump the gun, or skip over steps I needed to get?

I think I could have let it get to the point when sitting where the vibe "shifts lower", meaning she is deciding if she wants to have sex. On the other hand, I don't want to ignore a signal to be invited home. Did I do the right thing?

Another aspect, when we were sitting on the bench, she was facing forward, and so was I. Do we need to be facing more towards each other, to vibe more? We had like no eye contact while talking. Is this okay? On the one hand, it could look more "subtle". Meaning, she is being more subtle with her signs of interest, including not looking at me. Subtle indeed! Heck, though, I was doing much the same, facing ahead instead of towards her.

As far as "how it felt" and the "vibe", I would say there was some vibe there. However, it definitely wasn't as strong as with some other girls. But then again, she showed somewhat little signals of interest, besides talking. Which is fine, since I like talking. But the point is, was I making up signs that she was interested, or did the ones I perceive actually exist?

What I thought was useful was walking with her in the beginning. Although it moved me farther away from my apartment, it can be good to move with her, which makes it feel like you know each other better. I like that, and it's a good reason not to meet at the bar you want to go to, but at another one, or another landmark, so you can walk a block or two to the one you actually want to go to.

I could have deep dived better. Asked "what do you like about [activity she did a lot of]". I didn't do that this time, although I have done this in the past. It allows you to find things you appreciate about her as a human, which builds a connection. Second, making it sexual, I'm not sure if I need either a more purposeful way to do it, or otherwise a more effective way to do it. How do you talk about "sexual topics"? Moreover, in a smooth, calibrated way. Sex talk from Alex Rolstad is one way. But what about for more "conservative" girls who might not feel comfortable talking as explicitly about it? Hmm.

As for the phase where she "makes a decision" and the energy shifts lower, maybe I could've let that simmer a little more. Then again, I wanted to capitalize on asking where I lived, hitting the escalation window.

For back at my place, was there anything I could have done? Maybe there is a way to test compliance more. That way you can baby-step into kissing, rather than just going for it. I could get smoother there.

So, my question to you all, anything I could improve? Any particular mistake stand out? My sticking point is still largely getting a girl back, but then I go for the kiss and she isn't into it and leaves if I try to kiss her again. What do I do?

Cheers

 

[bobbyb112]

I had a date the other day.

We went to have a drink. We sat across from each other and talked for a while. It was the first date I had done in a while. I tried something a little different, related to vibe. I tried to have a smile. This seemed to give me a good vibe, and able to make funny or witty remarks. In the conversation, I tried to deep dive a bit, but was kind of rusty in that department. I thought about turning it sexual, but didn't really know how to do it. After a while, I asked if she wanted to come back and have a drink of wine at mine. We had some back and forth about the wine. I persisted, and said yes.

We went back to my place. We sat on the couch and had some wine. There, the couch is small, so we sat next to each other, rather than across. She seemed a bit closed off or uncomfortable still, with her arms crossed, so we talked longer than I perhaps normally do back at the place. I inspected her jewelry, and sort of held her hand. She allowed me to do it.

Then I kissed her once. Pulled back and said something else. Then went back in. We kissed and escalated, me running her hands on her body. We got shirt off. She reached down within my pants. This went on for a little bit. My pant belt buckle was sort of tight, and she couldn't get it off. Eventually she pulled back some, and said how it was late and she had to get back to be able to work in the morning.

---

There's a lot of detail in this that I'm leaving out. But, I'm trying to give the 80-20 of things I want to think about. First is the vibe. I focused on the vibe from the start, instead "what we were going to talk about". This was very helpful, because it made thinking of things to say much easier. Another good thing about focusing on the vibe is, I could actually enjoy it. I could enjoy just "being in the moment" and vibing with this girl. This is better than many other dates, where I'm in my head thinking about what I need to say or do. There are improvements I want to make on what I say and do, which I'll talk about in a second. But focusing on the vibe just made it really fun to get to know this person, regardless of what happened.

Structure: The structure was okay. By structure, I mean the overall progression of process, micro and macro. Here are the 4 big stages Hellos (1) to the emotional connection (2) to turning it sexual (3) to decision time (4) to escalation (5).

Stage (1), helllos, it was okay. Nothing crazy here. One thing I could improve is making sure to sit next to the girl when you go to sit. We sat across from each other. Although, I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts about this. In the past, I've tried to sit next to each other. Ideal is when you sit next to each other, but then can face each other a bit. So you get the benefits of eye contact, as well as incidental touch. On the flip side, sitting across from each other allows you to get good eye contact. Meaning, you can look at her face more. I actually enjoyed this a bit. At least, it was easier to get eye contact sitting across from each other. But, then it was good to have more touch when sitting next to each other on the couch later on.

Stage (2): I deep dived a bit. Although, I feel like this could have been better. Like, really figure out what she loves to do, then be like how come you don't do that more. Or, find the thing she's really into, particularly something artistic, then show that you approve of it. Because I do like when girls have interests or things they do or care about. I sort of did this, but I felt like I could have gone deeper. Moreover, whenever a girl leaves, I love being able to think back to something cool they showed or described to me that they like. The goal being, I believe, to create an emotional connection, so the girl believes I appreciate her as a person. Which leads to faster sex, and deeper relationships.

Stage (3): During this date, I had her show me her bracelets. I sort of held her hands as I did this, and she sort of let me do that. I could have gotten more incidental contact here. This is where it would have been better to be sitting next to each other. With my voice, I also could have "slowed down", and gotten more sexual that way. Conversationally, somehow bring up sexual topics. I was thinking of how to do that, but I wasn't really sure. Indeed, this is a stage I need to work on. Moreover, being a "sexual man", embodying the "sexual vibe", to go with whatever vibe I had before. When back at home, I made one more "overt" sexual remark. It was kind of blatant, but at least it got it going in that direction more clearly.

Stage (4): Ideally, you'd do all the prior stages at the date location, so she feels emotionally connected to you, sexually open, realizes where it's heading, decides silent to herself, and then you pull. Then when you get back, it's smooth from settling in then making a move. However, this time, I felt she wasn't ready when we were leaving the bar and going to mine. That is, I knew I hadn't done the sexual step as well yet, so I figured if I made a move soon after getting back, then she would resist. So we talked for more at my place than I normally do. Then I had more contact after a while. Then made a move to kiss.

We kissed and whatnot. I still didn't think she had "made up her mind" yet. As Chase says, sometimes girls don't make up their mind until later, up until the moment you're inside her! It was not "fully on" yet. However, it was getting late, and it was time to make a move. I guess this is still a stage I'm looking out for, because I didn't think I had executed the sexual stage very well, so it was a bit of a crapshoot as to whether she had "decided" or not yet. Thus, this is indeed a stage I need more experience seeing.

Stage (5): We escalated. I think if I had been faster, she would have gone along with it. I didn't want to go too fast, though, for a few reasons. The biggest being, in the past I've had a ton of girls back at my place, I made a move and kiss. Maybe we kiss for a bit, but if I push it too much further, she stops and leaves. Thus, I wanted her to do it of her own accord. And she pretty much did. She reached for my dick. Although it took too long to try to get out. Here is where I am kicking myself a little bit. I feel like if I had moved it faster, or shown more aggressiveness here, then I could've made it happen. However, it was late, I was tired, I was tired of pushing things forward and the girl resisting, etc, so I wasn't as aggressive as I perhaps have been in the past. I believe I could have made it happen. On the flip side, it was getting late, and she had to drive a ways home. This is another factor, if you meet up later at night, then you kind of are forced to run a faster process to make it all happen so you both have time. But hey, life's a bitch. You have to get good enough at seducing girls so you can have sex before you have to get up and do other things! If we both had hours upon hours to make things happen, well, then it'd be different. That's why getting good is important.

More thoughts:

I wanted to focus on vibe, because often in the past I felt like if a girl didn't close, she wouldn't want to see me again. I wanted to focus on the vibes, so that even if we didn't have sex, she would associate being around me as providing good feelings. Or at least strong feelings. And what do you know, it probably helps with sleeping with girls, too. Moreover, focusing on vibes can be less work, if you're not thinking of things as much. However, like with anything, as you master one part of the process, you can do it without thinking, and can free up mental space to think about other things.

Another thought: What I really want is to be able to do all of the parts before escalation, such that when I get back to my place, all that's left is to make a move and get to it. LMR, or escalating and then not having sex, is annoying. I don't like "handling objections". I want everything to be so watertight beforehand, that when we get back, there's only one thing left to do.

 

[bobbyb112]

Follup-up from the last post.

I saw the girl from that last post a second time. We ended up having sex. Per the last post, I was experiencing LMR, or resistance when escalating. I looked at my prior posts, and @Railer had written about preventing LMR, "make sure you qualified her enough (deep-diving) so that she has reason to believe you really like her". I decided to focus on this. Thinking back to prior successful escalations, I had expressed interest and approval in something she did. This time, she came over and we had some food. I made sure to say how cool it was how she was doing XYZ thing she had told me about last time. I actually did this with two things she had talked about, which might be overkill, but I figured might as well hammer it home to see what happens.

When I escalated, she generally went along with it. Per the last post, I also focused on the vibe. The escalation took some persistence, but none of it felt forced, like it has in the past. We had sex after a bit.

A few takeaways from this seduction. 1. Vibe is very important, fundamental and powerful. Use it to create a low-key, fun, flirty, relaxed, no-big-deal energy. 2. Somewhat explicitly, or implicitly, giving her a reason to believe you really like her, during the deep diving part, is very helpful. This is also rewarding her for telling you things about herself. Which is good, because it incentivizes her to tell you more things about herself. Also, people like people who like them. If you tell her, implicitly or explicitly, how cool you think it is that she does XYZ thing, then she'll feel more seen, and appreciated. Deep diving is still something I'm working on. But this is one key aspect of it. 3. This was I think the first time I've gone on a second date with a girl who I didn't sleep with on the first date. And I've tried to get those other girls out again on a second date, but they've never said yes. I attribute this to the vibe improvement. I'm still going to try to sleep with them on the first date, because that is a good overall approach. I just like seeing some success due to the vibe, leading to something good which hasn't happened before. 4. I enjoyed the whole process more, because I was happier when interacting and, for lack of a better word, "vibing" with her. It felt more like a genuine human connection. Sort of. I felt more free and in the moment, and therefore able to enjoy it.

 

[bobbyb112]

I had a date with a girl last night.

We went for drinks. Talked. She did most of the talking. She showed me pictures of stuff. We went back to mine. Kissed, boobs. But she said she had to go to drive home and get to sleep for the next morning.

Question: Is there a good way to prevent "it's late I have to go home to be up for work tomorrow?". I guess you just move faster and do it all sooner. If you can go from meet to lay in, say, 20, 30, 40, 60 minutes, then that usually leaves enough time. But if it takes longer, then you run into this. I suppose the answer is just to get better at your process, so you can make it happen faster.

As far as the process, she talked a lot, and shared a lot, which is good. It didn't really turn sexual, until later, when we were at my place, after we had kissed. She brought up a "sexual" topic. This is the sexual stage, which I want to be able to reliably create. It's good that she went there later, but I need to be the one to move into this stage, and moreover be in control of the seduction.

Earlier, I had also kind of just let her talk. This isn't bad, because she was sharing stuff and investing. But perhaps too, to could gotten to even more important things, where at some point she was sort of rambling. This is guiding the conversation, keeping it in certain guardrails that are productive.

For ramping up sexual tension and touch, I did a few things. I touched her hands, I had her warm up my hands, which she did. Strong eye contact. I want to continue with strong eye contact. I don't really have a trouble with it. I just need it to change the vibe more, so it helps to bring things to a more sexual level.

At the bar, I had us sit at a table, me facing out into the room. This is good. This is a small thing that I've mentioned a number of times before, and I'm proud of remembering to do it this time. She followed me and sat next to me, which was good. Sitting next to someone is easier to hear.

I also made a little bit of an effort to maintain strong back posture. Sitting up straight, not turning, tilting, or leaning in very much if at all. Strong posture. I think this makes a difference in how you come across.

SImilar to the last date, I smiled with the corners of my mouth. For whatever reason, this makes you feel happier, and you transmit that to the person you're talking with. Thus, I ended up enjoying the conversation and interaction a lot more than I have in the past. This is good. It is nice to enjoy times with other people.

All the fundamentals can make a big difference. Smiling with the corners of my mouth, strong posture. It invites the girl to feel comfortable yet wanting to please you. It invites her into your world.

In addition to the fundamentals, for process, turning the conversation sexual is still desired.

 

[gameboy]

Why do you make a point of sitting facing the room? i kind of get it just to have a view of what's going on, but how does it relate to seduction?

 

[bobbyb112]

@gameboy I don't want to overstate the importance of it, but if she is facing out into a chaotic room, then she might get distracted. Along with this is sitting next to her, rather than across, which I find useful because then it is easier to touch and get closer, and hear her.