Moving too fast - How to fix?

[ulrich]

So I started doing daygame again after several years of focusing on bars and online.
Very important information: My main goal is to get an amazing girlfriend. I’m full of banging mediocre girls for now.

A couple of weeks ago, I grabbed the number of a super cute and super hot girl.
She is probably the hottest, cutest and sweetest girl I’ve ever dated.. I’m falling a little for her.

Long story short, I took her in a date to a place with amazing pie, had some beers... conversation never stopped, she was into me, I was into her... everything flowing.

At some point, our ages came up. We both thought each other was 26... I am actually 34, she is 23. I thought that would be a dealbreaker but she insisted on qualifying herself saying that she had dated a guy older than me before.
The restaurant closes, everything is going fine so I tell her that I’ll make a nightcap for her and took her to my apartment.

The moment she goes in, her body language changes. She is nervous.
I keep making conversation. It flows but she is nervous.
I make her a nightcap... 15-20 minutes later, I go for the kiss... she reciprocates with really sweet kisses... then she says she gotta go.
I tell her to stay 5 minutes more, I kiss her again... she kisses me... then steps up and say it’s time to go... I tell her, give me a last one... we kiss and the leave.
It was looking like a huge LMR was on its way so I didn’t fight it... sweet kisses should last for now.
At this point she is very compliant.

I drive her to her home and ask her for her hand. She gives it to me and I place it in the back of my head. She complies caressing my neck and head.
We get to her home, I kiss her last night, tell her she is special to me. She says we should go for wings next week.

Next day I text her saying I think she is super sweet... and nothing... SHE GHOSTED ME

I wait three days and text her inviting her to go to for wings as she suggested. NO ANSWER.

I wait three more days and text her “hey, is everything OK”. She says yes, ask me about me and the silence...

So I shared this with my sister and a close friend (not a playboy)... they tell me I went too fast.
I’m like “What?, she was complying all the time”

So 5 days later I try a Hail Mary.
I send a 2 min video message throwing the ball in her court, tell her that I really liked her, I think she is special, maybe I went too fast and ask her to tell me what is going on so I can try to fix it... if she is interested.
She replies one day later telling me she had a huge family issue and wasn’t responding messages... she likes me and wants to see me again but makes it clear she wants to take things much slower.

So I may be able to save this one but I want to fix this so it doesn’t happen again.

It seems that the girls I can get from daygame are way more conservative and less DTF than the ones I’m used to.

Has anyone had this problem changing niches? How can I tell when I should move “slower”?

 

[Rakkum]

This is not about tempo, it's about your frame. You are a bit too taken in by this chick and it shows.. she probably sensed it and bailed after the emotions and arousal of the date faded.

Telling a chick that she is special on the first date... no good unless she objectively is or you have qualified her on something specific. Has she proven herself to be extraordinary in any sense? Other than being hot and cute. If hot and cute make her extraordinary to you what does that say about you?

You've got to fake it a bit to make it here

 

[Velasco]

The moment she goes in, her body language changes. She is nervous.
I keep making conversation. It flows but she is nervous.
I make her a nightcap... 15-20 minutes later, I go for the kiss... she reciprocates with really sweet kisses.

As soon as you noticed she was nervous. Job #1 is to make her feel comfortable/laughing again. from there, you want to increase sexual arousal via your verbals and nonverbals. Her reciprocating your kiss with "sweet kisses" VS "passionate kisses" tells me she wasn't sexually aroused/begging for it, when you initiated the kiss. When a girl is sexually aroused, it makes no difference which side she leans towards with regards to conservative or liberal (mayb more cringe for conservatives, but thats just due to their lack of experience lol). then escalate when she gives you the sign. at this point, no means yes

 

[Mr STIF]

Comfort her nerves(nervousness), take control of the vibe(bubble of energy between both of you) and channel that energy into arousal and sexuality.

It's like taking your aim steadily before taking a shot.

Once a woman is in my room, I play a couple of games to get us more comfortable e.g staring each other in the eye and the first to blink becomes the loser.

She can't be nervous after maintaining eye contact.

 

[Chase]

@uriel,

Nice to see you finding a quality girl from your daygaming.

More to follow, I'm sure (unless you lock down this little sweet thing).

I like all the advice from the other guys here. Getting her comfortable again, like @Velasco and @Mr STIF say. Games can help with that, a la Mr STIF's suggestion. You can either keep some little card/board games on-hand, or use a routine like The Cube, Strawberry Fields, or the Three Favorite Animals Game.

Don't forget little tactics like turning on some music videos to provide background noise and distraction.

Once she's more comfortable you can further disarm her by asking her to do something for you while you are passive (e.g., the old @A2daMIR bit: "Ow, my shoulder's really sore... I got into pull-ups again recently -- that's my new pull-up bar over there... but now my shoulder's killing me... I need a massage. But I need a hard massage, like a man would give. Think you can do that?"). Then you're just lying there while she works on you. Very disarming.

When she's on her way out, if it was at all awkward, do what you can to make it FUN. e.g., take her hand, spin her around on her way out the door, smile, get her laughing, maybe sing to her: "La-ta-dee, la-ta-dah, life goes on..." etc.

One of the big things for girls with "He was kissing me at his place but I shut him down" scenarios is they get really weird, feeling like the guy feels they rejected him, wondering if he harbors ill will toward them. If you're having a great time as you walk them out, it's a pattern interrupt and communicates you did not view it as a rejection. Interrupts the bad feelings before they can fully form/cement and keeps them more open to you for next time.

This is not about tempo, it's about your frame. You are a bit too taken in by this chick and it shows.. she probably sensed it and bailed after the emotions and arousal of the date faded.

Telling a chick that she is special on the first date... no good unless she objectively is or you have qualified her on something specific. Has she proven herself to be extraordinary in any sense? Other than being hot and cute. If hot and cute make her extraordinary to you what does that say about you?

You've got to fake it a bit to make it here

I largely agree with @Rakkum here.

However, as it was a Hail Mary you were throwing, telling her "I thought you might be something special" is okay.

A lot of the rules go out the window with Hail Marys, and stuff you wouldn't normally think would work sometimes can.

Obviously that move shifted a lot more power into her corner (temporarily). She's now demanding things proceed slower. Whether "it's too fast" was her real objection or not, you coming out with it put it front-of-mind for her and that means she'll be on the lookout for that now.

Which is fine; just use date compression. You can still get her on the third or fourth date. Schedule them in quick enough succession and that could be a week from now.

Big takeaway: keep approaching, get more girls in your funnel, and continue cracking on this girl too. You're off to a good start with day game. You have more successes to come.

Chase

 

[DarkKnight]

Once she's more comfortable you can further disarm her by asking her to do something for you while you are passive (e.g., the old @A2daMIR bit: "Ow, my shoulder's really sore... I got into pull-ups again recently -- that's my new pull-up bar over there... but now my shoulder's killing me... I need a massage. But I need a hard massage, like a man would give. Think you can do that?"). Then you're just lying there while she works on you. Very disarming.

Hohoho this is 100 percent congruent with me. I can use this. I like. The three animals game seems fun too, gonna fieldtest that asap when I actually fucking meet girls again (lockdown)

She replies one day later telling me she had a huge family issue and wasn’t responding messages... she likes me and wants to see me again but makes it clear she wants to take things much slower.

OUCH... big loss of frame there. But I get your situation... Maybe another mistake here is listening to non game-aware people... their suggestions tend to get mainstream in other words "you moved too fast". These people will push your towards mainstream bull.

 

[Skills]

When you bring a girl to your crib a good move that i always made, is to totally leave them alone for a little bit...

Sometimes, I go in and show her the place or something in the place.... (art, video, or i have music playing and i dance a bit with them easy to escalate)--- in my new strategic place is good cause is you go in and the is a bed, nowhere to sit but the bed (like in my videos)

on my bigger houses i used to usually ask them if they want something to drink or snack, or i ask them if they need to use the bathroom (to freshen up and sometimes they do and strategically clean the vagina).....

After, i go to the bathroom and leave them alone with the space for a bit (3-5 minutes and i change to sweat pants or something were i can pull out junior fast and easy)

- She was very tense, if the girl is tense you will not have sex even if they are down....

Usually the leaving them briefly alone and act like you don't care to have sex for a bit does the job...(5 minutes without trying so the asd and tension goes down, you can interact with her for example while you are in the kitchen and she in the living room but platonic for a period of time to RELAX HER and get her acclimated with the place and dis stress)

Then and easy way is like i think chase is saying is the massage (this was my go to move for years i recently stop doing it cause i don't need it)... The cheap mall massagers/store massagers is what i used to use, "check this out i just bought this at the mall, how does it feel" and then i go from there.... (do not listen to sister or civilians advice is pretty much kj ) http://www.theskillsmethod.com/easiest-way-to-guarantee-sex-i-ever-known/

That hail marry idea is a good one, but i would rather send that in text... less desperate vibe (but glad it worked)... Also you need to keep your mild onitis in check "the one" vibe on the post "amazing girlfriend" ---> this attitude as you know is counter productive even if you actually want an amazing girlfriend which is mainly what most of us wanted at one point or another, but the key to having an "amazing girlfriend" is having multiple choices or ability to have choices, so you do not have to resort to "hail marys"...... At this point in my life i am totally repulse to having a girlfriend, and women totally super want me to be the boyfriend and they fall super super super hard on me, even though i explain a million times that i do not want a girlfriend to the point that right now i am totally traumatized cause the girls at this point are falling tooooooooooooo hard, were i don't even feel like gaming girls too much, due to that reason... (hope you understand the point)

 

[DarkKnight]

One of the big things for girls with "He was kissing me at his place but I shut him down" scenarios is they get really weird, feeling like the guy feels they rejected him, wondering if he harbors ill will toward them. If you're having a great time as you walk them out, it's a pattern interrupt and communicates you did not view it as a rejection. Interrupts the bad feelings before they can fully form/cement and keeps them more open to you for next time.

I want to explore this a bit. So in general when a girl finds that she has rejected you she starts worrying about that you feel resentful/ with a grudge and they worry about their relationship towards you? Does this also relate to girls who do not reply with texts/flake etc.?

And is this due to added up experience with guys who have blown up in the past?

 

[Velasco]

@DarkKnight

If you're having a great time as you walk them out, it's a pattern interrupt and communicates you did not view it as a rejection. Interrupts the bad feelings before they can fully form/cement and keeps them more open to you for next time.

i would say this is more for consistency bias. which as you know, is people's tendency to behave in a manner that matches what they've previously said or done.

By allowing the bad feelings to cement (you leave only after she coldly rejects you), you increase the likelihood of her wanting to be consistent with that (i.e. when you re-approach her, in person or via text, she'll lean heavily towards wanting to reject you again VS being open to you).

So by simply not allowing those feelings to cement, mayb you leave before she coldly rejects you. or mayb you quickly change the subject before getting rejected, you avoid her wanting to be consistent with that behavior (reject you) because you didn't allow it to cement in the first place.

 

[Beck Bass]

Job #1 is to make her feel comfortable/laughing again.

This right here. Confort is key to avoid LMR and buying regret and all that bad stuff.

That said, if you get alone with her, and had a chance to close, but didn't, many times the girl will ghost you, because they don't wanna face the embarassment of the situation and everything that was left in the air. "If we meet up again, will he expect to fuck me?". That kind of stuff.
Sometimes it's better to just leave it to the next date, if you feel she's really not ready, but I'm not gonna blame you for trying.

Don't forget little tactics like turning on some music videos to provide background noise and distraction.

Thank you for giving me this one, @Chase. I haven't really pulled girls to my appartment yet, but when I do this come in handy.
Last time I was in a girl's house, the music in the background really helped defuse a bit of the overwhelming tension and get us in the mood (it was playing some edgy seductive hip hop beat or something).

 

[ulrich]

@Rakkum, yeah man you're right.

Looking back even though I said she is special, I didn't make seem as important as it seems in the post.
I guess I need to get used to this high caliber of girls to get consistent results.

Thanks!!

@Velasco, @Mr STIF alright so I need to step up my comfort game when bringing them home. Noted. Thank, guys.

@Chase, thanks man. I will definitely make sure to make things more fun if I abort the escalation.

The confusing part was that I was still getting compliance so I thought I was on the right track but everything turned so tense and stressful now, I can now see that more comfort was needed at that point.

Any pointers to get her out again? She only replies to half my messages.

I seem to always drop the ball with girls losing interest after what would seem like great first or second dates.
I wonder what I am failing to see...


@DarkKnight, I mostly agree with you but I wonder if there's something to learn from regulars.
At the end of the day, you guys are thousand of miles away so there could be some finer points that I can only catch from the people in my city.

It also baffles me that I know guys with amazing girlfriends/wives who don't kiss until the fourth or fifth date.
Not saying I want to be them... but I don't want to throw the baby with the bathwater.

@Bacchus, thanks man. These are golden. I'm going to read each twice!!

A question for you, do you think there's a time where you should call quits on a girl if she is really nervous and LMR is through the roof? (you failed to prevent it)

@Skills dude, that's funny I actually did the kitchen talk thing.

Definitely this is a little oneitis, I now realize... and let me tell you, I am glad I am feeeling this small oneitis because it tells me that I am pushing my boundaries.
I can see now that a big part of the problem is that I am over-eager:

So the solution is the ususal, date more girls on this caliber... get used to having them around



So guys, I will text her later today to try to get a second date.
I don't know what will happen but wish me luck.

 

[Chase]

@DarkKnight,

I want to explore this a bit. So in general when a girl finds that she has rejected you she starts worrying about that you feel resentful/ with a grudge and they worry about their relationship towards you? Does this also relate to girls who do not reply with texts/flake etc.?

And is this due to added up experience with guys who have blown up in the past?

Right. It comes down to bad emotions cementing, as @Velasco notes.

One thing to keep in mind is bad feelings cement to various degrees. The stronger the emotion, and the longer the emotion is held for, and the more fully formed it becomes, the stronger it cements itself in there.

So, for instance, if you tell a girl, "I'll bet you were a little overweight at one point in college," and she kind of shakes her head and say, "Um.. no," and you just playfully shrug and tell her, "Really? There's this thing you see with people where when they have a good personality, a lot of times they used to be fat. What's the deal with your personality? Just natural? 'Cause it's a really nice personality," and she starts talking about why her personality is how it is, that was a very light negative emotion (dissimilarity, when you called it wrong) which she only felt for a short time because you quickly interrupted it and made it fun and interesting again, then got her talking about herself so she can bond to you and you can ramp up similarity again. Lightly negative + light duration = limited bad emotion cementing.

When things go sour at a guy's apartment though, there are all kinds of fears and bad threats a girl can have. Some girls are more paranoid than others and will start to wonder if you might hurt them or get angry because they rejected you. If it feels awkward that amplifies ("Oh no, he's changed, am I going to see a dark side of him?"). Even if they're not paranoid it can feel incongruous ("Oh, this is weird. It's been nice and fun and comfortable all night but then I turn down sex and it gets super awkward. I guess I know what this whole night was about for him then"), and flip her perception of you from 'cool in-control guy' to 'needy guy who was chasing sex the whole time and just hid it well before'.

So this is often going to be a much stronger negative emotion feeling.

Compound that with the fact that a lot of guys show girls out immediately after it gets bad like this, and that feeling just lingers, with the girl reviewing it in her mind, trying to figure out how it went from light and fun to awkward and bad. She backwards rationalizes, constructs a whole narrative in her head, then there you go.

Strongly negative + long duration = very bad emotional anchors to you.

If you can get out in front and remove the awkwardness and bad emotions and send her off in a way that feels light and happy and fun, and like it is a mutual thing she is leaving, or even better like you had to kick her out because you had something else going, and you really want to see her again but you just can't see her now (e.g., suddenly remember a Zoom call you need to hop on with a client in 8 minutes, so she really has to go but you do hope to see her again soon), she is going to leave confused and excited and possibly even feeling needy toward you. Which is going to make things a lot more likely to go in your way if you contact her for another meetup to try with her again in the future.


@uriel,

Any pointers to get her out again? She only replies to half my messages.

I seem to always drop the ball with girls losing interest after what would seem like great first or second dates.
I wonder what I am failing to see...

I don't know what your message history with her is or how often you've messaged her or when the last one was, but just spitballing it here you could try something like this:

Hey Angie, sorry I haven't set anything solid up with you in a few weeks. Past couple weeks with the holidays have been chaotic. Anyway, I'm getting settled again, and I'd really like to take you for those wings I promised you (and failed to deliver on -- sorry). What's your schedule like this/next week? Let's nail down a date and I'll be sure to show up.​

Of course the whole frame there is that you're the flaky one, you're apologizing for having been so unavailable, that she was waiting to come out with you and you continually flaked, and now you've finally cleared some time for her and are going to make it up to her with this thing you promised her before that she wanted and you didn't deliver.

It's a generally effective frame for texting turnarounds, framing yourself as the scarce one and her as waiting around, if you get it right.

If she's still flaky after that I'd try calling her, doing some bonding phone calls, and rebuilding comfort & attraction (you could also try video messages).

Chase

 

[ulrich]

Hey @Chase, I tried this message and worked like a charm.
Now, I have a date tomorrow with this girl to grab those wings.

Im already thinking of options to get her from there to another place and do the date compression.

Thanks man!!

 

[ulrich]

Update on this: I was to have a date with her today but she ghosted me again.

Oh well, you win some, you lose some.
Time to look for new girls.

 

[Skills]

Update on this: I was to have a date with her today but she ghosted me again.

Oh well, you win some, you lose some.
Time to look for new girls.

The reason you keep losing those girls, is cause as i have been repeating like a broken record, the open to close method is just low % in most cases...

 

[Velasco]

The reason you keep losing those girls, is cause as i have been repeating like a broken record, the open to close method is just low % in most cases...

I disagree. This one was fucked no matter what. He should have moved on and taken the advice here, make her comfortable-> sex prize -> escalate (Emphasis on making her feel comfortable) from you and me and focused on new girls. Same as DoWhatWorks. With emphasis on sex prizing. instead of how do I salvage this girl who is ignoring my texts?

 

[Skills]

I disagree. This one was fucked no matter what. He should have moved on and taken the advice here, make her comfortable-> sex prize -> escalate (Emphasis on making her feel comfortable) from you and me and focused on new girls. Same as DoWhatWorks. With emphasis on sex prizing. instead of how do I salvage this girl who is ignoring my texts?

i was only commenting on the texting part, pre ghosting style, but yeah as you will see patterns in most reports if most guys don't do the second generation/sexual prizing they will have weak closes or asd, unless the girl is into him, even me when i get lazy and skip it... like the sample "after party" were i did not do it..

 

[ulrich]

The reason you keep losing those girls, is cause as i have been repeating like a broken record, the open to close method is just low % in most cases...

Actually I was somewhat chatty in my messages with her... asking about her day, sharing about mine. That was before and after the ghosting.

I didn’t include all details because I thought they were irrelevant.

At this point, I think there’s too much dissimilarity between us and she just can’t take it and went into auto-rejection. (I didn’t mention before but she has a kid, which adds even more dissimilarity).
I should have prevented this from happening by creating more comfort but oh well, live and learn.

 

[Chase]

Cool you got the date temporarily, @uriel.

Bummer she ghosted again. Especially with some of these really thin cases where you get the girl to agree to a date by pushing exactly the right emotional buttons, if she's not coming out right away you are often going to do well to get her on a phone call ASAP as soon as she agrees to the date while she is still feeling those good feelings and cement that in. Otherwise time goes by and her feelings reset and she starts going, "Why am I going out with this guy again? I thought I didn't want to."

Anyway, I hope the whole episode's been educational for you.

You've seen mistakes that've caused you to lose her. You've seen how pushing certain emotions can get a predictable response from a girl, including set up a date with a girl who'd ghosted. And you've seen how if you don't lock that in you can still lose the girl anyway.

These are lessons that'll continue to serve you.

Just keep absorbing the lessons and adjusting your approach, and you'll get it

Chase

 

[ulrich]

@Chase, oh man. It sure has been educational

It’s pretty frustrating that every time I overcome a wall, there’s another one next. But hey, I guess it’s the cost of having high aspirations.

I’m really thankful for all your help and I’ll make sure to be ready for the next girl.