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political discussions in social circle

Searcher

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Dec 24, 2021
Messages
226
I have been on this forum for sometime and the insights I get into many situations is quite valuable.

These days in most social circles, politics have gone on steroids.

I generally don't like to discuss politics in social circle game but it is unavoidable when the topic comes up.

there are people in the social circle who basically parrot whatever suits their confirmation bias.
any disagreements is met by personal attacks.
calling it out is further met by doubling down on it.

some of these are social circles are unavoidable at the workplace(a very left leaning and some hobbies.

How do I respond in such cases?
 
you miss 100% of the shots you don't take

Skills

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
5,227
I have been on this forum for sometime and the insights I get into many situations is quite valuable.

These days in most social circles, politics have gone on steroids.

I generally don't like to discuss politics in social circle game but it is unavoidable when the topic comes up.

there are people in the social circle who basically parrot whatever suits their confirmation bias.
any disagreements is met by personal attacks.
calling it out is further met by doubling down on it.

some of these are social circles are unavoidable at the workplace(a very left leaning and some hobbies.

How do I respond in such cases?
you just act curious, help them elaborate, and never show your card (your political, religuious, or your leanings) just play stupid, and/or say you got taught early own not to talk about politics or religuion never ends well... and change topics
 

Chase

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,224
@Searcher,

If you need to talk to them about it (i.e., they corner you / badger you), use the Socratic Method. That's where you just ask leading questions about the person's beliefs, statements, positions, etc.:


Like Skills said this will get them elaborating on their viewpoints. You never reveal your own. At most you just say, "Hmm that's interesting," and ask more questions. Depending on your goal you can just ask questions until you reach the point where they reveal they have no idea what they're talking about -- but I wouldn't advise that for the workplace. You'll just make enemies (the Athenian elites poisoned Socrates with hemlock after he pissed them off enough with his question-asking!).

Personally with agitated political people I will ask a few questions like this to get them to explain their views a bit, basically just bring them to the precipice to where they start to feel uncertain about what they're saying, then I will change the subject. Gets them off their high horse, but avoids robbing them of face; the topic change lets them save face, so they end up being grateful. They also realize that talking to you about politics risks exposing them as idiots so they refrain from bringing it up with you again in the future and just stick to more agreeable subjects.

(so for me the technique is: don't go all the way into making them feel like idiots, just bring them close enough to it that they can feel that talking to you anymore about this would be a bad idea for their face)



Otherwise, if you do NOT need to talk to them (i.e., they are not badgering you or cornering you), and it's just bugging you listening to it, it helps to understand Jonathan Haidt's Moral Foundations Theory:

e.g., if they are liberal and you are conservative, you will value

  • Care/harm
  • Fairness/cheating
  • Loyalty/betrayal
  • Authority/subversion
  • Sanctity/degradation
  • Liberty/oppression

Meanwhile they will ONLY value

  • Care/harm
  • Fairness/cheating

You both have equivalent amounts of "fucks to give", but yours are distributed among six categories of values while theirs are concentrated into two. To your ears they will be OVEREMPHASIZING the importance of those two while seeming morally bankrupt on the other six; to their ears (if you start spouting politics back) you will have weirdly misplaced values on values spectrums that TO THEM are not even moral dimensions at all; meanwhile you will not value the two moral foundations that to them are the only ones that actually matter nearly enough, which makes YOU seem "morally bankrupt."

This is a largely unbridgeable gulf, because you cannot get them to view your extra values as "moral values" except in the abstract, and only if they are very open-minded (most people aren't). So it is better just to understand that people with opposing views to yours are simply operating from a different set of morality at a foundational level and there's no point trying to argue with them about surface-level politics. You'd have to totally change their moral foundations first, which you almost certainly cannot (i.e., your first task before you deal with superficial politics is to get Mr. Liberal to decide it is important to respect authority, honor loyalty, maintain purity, and value liberty. You will not succeed at that, which makes the superficial conversation moot).

Once you understand it then you can just shrug, because that conversation is irrelevant to you.

Also, arguing politics with peons is just totally pointless, unless you work in a Senator's office or something. If you could change their minds, would that change your government's policy? Unlikely! So it's just a colossal waste of time and productive energy.

Chase
 

Searcher

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Dec 24, 2021
Messages
226
@Searcher,

If you need to talk to them about it (i.e., they corner you / badger you), use the Socratic Method. That's where you just ask leading questions about the person's beliefs, statements, positions, etc.:


Like Skills said this will get them elaborating on their viewpoints. You never reveal your own. At most you just say, "Hmm that's interesting," and ask more questions. Depending on your goal you can just ask questions until you reach the point where they reveal they have no idea what they're talking about -- but I wouldn't advise that for the workplace. You'll just make enemies (the Athenian elites poisoned Socrates with hemlock after he pissed them off enough with his question-asking!).

Personally with agitated political people I will ask a few questions like this to get them to explain their views a bit, basically just bring them to the precipice to where they start to feel uncertain about what they're saying, then I will change the subject. Gets them off their high horse, but avoids robbing them of face; the topic change lets them save face, so they end up being grateful. They also realize that talking to you about politics risks exposing them as idiots so they refrain from bringing it up with you again in the future and just stick to more agreeable subjects.

(so for me the technique is: don't go all the way into making them feel like idiots, just bring them close enough to it that they can feel that talking to you anymore about this would be a bad idea for their face)



Otherwise, if you do NOT need to talk to them (i.e., they are not badgering you or cornering you), and it's just bugging you listening to it, it helps to understand Jonathan Haidt's Moral Foundations Theory:

e.g., if they are liberal and you are conservative, you will value

  • Care/harm
  • Fairness/cheating
  • Loyalty/betrayal
  • Authority/subversion
  • Sanctity/degradation
  • Liberty/oppression

Meanwhile they will ONLY value

  • Care/harm
  • Fairness/cheating

You both have equivalent amounts of "fucks to give", but yours are distributed among six categories of values while theirs are concentrated into two. To your ears they will be OVEREMPHASIZING the importance of those two while seeming morally bankrupt on the other six; to their ears (if you start spouting politics back) you will have weirdly misplaced values on values spectrums that TO THEM are not even moral dimensions at all; meanwhile you will not value the two moral foundations that to them are the only ones that actually matter nearly enough, which makes YOU seem "morally bankrupt."

This is a largely unbridgeable gulf, because you cannot get them to view your extra values as "moral values" except in the abstract, and only if they are very open-minded (most people aren't). So it is better just to understand that people with opposing views to yours are simply operating from a different set of morality at a foundational level and there's no point trying to argue with them about surface-level politics. You'd have to totally change their moral foundations first, which you almost certainly cannot (i.e., your first task before you deal with superficial politics is to get Mr. Liberal to decide it is important to respect authority, honor loyalty, maintain purity, and value liberty. You will not succeed at that, which makes the superficial conversation moot).

Once you understand it then you can just shrug, because that conversation is irrelevant to you.

Also, arguing politics with peons is just totally pointless, unless you work in a Senator's office or something. If you could change their minds, would that change your government's policy? Unlikely! So it's just a colossal waste of time and productive energy.

Chase
Thanks for taking the time to write this long post. the analysis is beautiful.

I agree with the analysis that its pointless to change their mind. it will be a waste of my energy.
the analysis on moral foundations theory is not something i had heard until now.

I work in a software company, so its like walking into a left wing party headquarters.

At the same time I can't deny that it does irk me when they spew hatred of anyone who doesn't blindly trust them (basically calling them "fascists", "Nazis", etc), the amount of blatant lies, the outright denial to even listen to other points.

I guess I will have to learn to ignore them for my own benefit.
 

ChrisXKiss

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jul 31, 2023
Messages
411
At the same time I can't deny that it does irk me when they spew hatred of anyone who doesn't blindly trust them (basically calling them "fascists", "Nazis", etc), the amount of blatant lies, the outright denial to even listen to other points.

I guess I will have to learn to ignore them for my own benefit.
I’d say that this is the most important part. If you have to be around these people and collaborate, then the best way for it to work is to simply accept their views on politics as something they really value for their own reasons, without letting it trigger you.

The way I try to do it is by seeing most people that talk about politics somehow like we want to see girls as silly and cute. I recognise that they are believing something strongly, and generally this seems a bit silly and cute to me, because there is not an absolutely perfect political system we should all be agreeing on, so them getting very passionate about their positions has a lot to do with how they are wired to see the world, which they don’t fully realise.

It’s not even about what they believe, if they just strongly believe it and would only ever debate it to prove someone else how right they are, to me that’s some silly and cute behaviour.

And not in a condescending way. I believe it helps to accept people for their nature, and these kind of behaviours are an interesting part of the human experience.

So you can be a part of the group, treat them really well like the lovely people they are and not let the expression of their views affect you.

I believe this goes a long way towards effectively cohabiting with people especially in such scenarios, where you are kinda close and need to interact a lot, but not really that close that is important for your beliefs to be so aligned.
 
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