Reward honesty? Hate the situation

[enrico]

My gf had a family meal for her mum's birthday, after the meal she went clubbing with her brother and sister. It was a last minute idea and she told me she was going, her siblings are very protective of her so this shouldn't be an issue.

Her brother and sister had a fight and fell out in the club leaving her on her own but she stayed out with a guy and girl she knows. They're not close friends but talk when they see each other.

She was apparently very upset with her brother and sister and the guy friend walked her home. She told me he came into the house and she vented her frustration at him.

Due to her honesty telling me about this I imagine nothing happened, she could've kept quiet and I'd have never known. Despite this I'm still not happy that this happened. I don't want to be a lunatic and and kick off, I feel I should reward the honesty but I'm still annoyed and furious with this. (Guess I can't shake the paranoia or I really don't like the situation)

I don't like how she was in that situation, being walked home is one thing but inviting him in is unacceptable, though dumping her is possibly overacting and a touch insecure. Unless this is worth nexting her for.

How do you balance rewarding her honesty and but letting her know that, that shouldn't have happened and won't be tolerated?

 

[Will_V]

My gf had a family meal for her mum's birthday, after the meal she went clubbing with her brother and sister. It was a last minute idea and she told me she was going, her siblings are very protective of her so this shouldn't be an issue.

Her brother and sister had a fight and fell out in the club leaving her on her own but she stayed out with a guy and girl she knows. They're not close friends but talk when they see each other.

She was apparently very upset with her brother and sister and the guy friend walked her home. She told me he came into the house and she vented her frustration at him.

Due to her honesty telling me about this I imagine nothing happened, she could've kept quiet and I'd have never known. Despite this I'm still not happy that this happened. I don't want to be a lunatic and and kick off, I feel I should reward the honesty but I'm still annoyed and furious with this. (Guess I can't shake the paranoia or I really don't like the situation)

I don't like how she was in that situation, being walked home is one thing but inviting him in is unacceptable, though dumping her is possibly overacting and a touch insecure. Unless this is worth nexting her for.

How do you balance rewarding her honesty and but letting her know that, that shouldn't have happened and won't be tolerated?

This is one of the reasons why talking to your girl about what is acceptable and what isn't at the start of the relationship is so important.

But my first question would be, why weren't you the guy she called when she was left on her own at the club? That should be instinctual for her anyway. But on top of that you were trusting her siblings to take care of her (which is something you perhaps could have underlined to her beforehand?) so as soon as this changed she should have known that you wouldn't accept the situation.

The problem with her not doing this is that it separates you entirely from the events of the night and having any influence on things. And that is a major red flag for me, because that is generally how women rebel in a relationship - not by going against you directly but sidestepping your influence and presenting herself to competing influences.

Inviting the guy into the house - again, why wasn't she keen to come to you if she needed emotional support? And what made her do this, presumably knowing you wouldn't like it, and that she was putting herself at risk of something happening to compromise the relationship?

The problem here is not simply a faux pas on her part but multiple failures to take the natural response to needing support - going to you - and ignoring obvious risks of crossing relationship boundaries, which suggests that you lack some emotional traction with her. But I don't know what kind of relationship you have, what standards you have, what you have discussed and the precedents you have set, so I don't know how much of it is likely to have been intentional on her part.

 

[enrico]

Thanks @Will_V

This is one of the reasons why talking to your girl about what is acceptable and what isn't at the start of the relationship is so important.

This was a failure on my part, despite having a conversation about what is and isn't acceptable I didn't think I'd have to explicitly state do not bring over guys home with you.

But my first question would be, why weren't you the guy she called when she was left on her own at the club? That should be instinctual for her anyway. But on top of that you were trusting her siblings to take care of her (which is something you perhaps could have underlined to her beforehand?)

I asked myself the same question. Making an excuse for her, I work full time in a very busy job and she didn't want to disturb me before an important meeting in the morning. I'd have rather had this phone call.

I didn't underline that I was trusting her siblings, I should've but I didn't expect them to fight with each other.

The problem with her not doing this is that it separates you entirely from the events of the night and having any influence on things. And that is a major red flag for me,

This is a major red flag for me which is why dumping her is an option. I feel it would be an overreaction after she's been honest but I really don't like this situation.

Inviting the guy into the house - again, why wasn't she keen to come to you if she needed emotional support? And what made her do this, presumably knowing you wouldn't like it, and that she was putting herself at risk of something happening to compromise the relationship?

I want to know why she didn't come to me and why she thought it would be acceptable to invite him in. I don't like the situation she put herself in and again a major red flag to me.

but multiple failures to take the natural response to needing support - going to you - and ignoring obvious risks of crossing relationship boundaries, which suggests that you lack some emotional traction with her. But I don't know what kind of relationship you have, what standards you have, what you have discussed

This is multiple failures, the only "redeeming" part is the honesty. If I'd have found out about this in any other way I'd next her instantly.

I don't know about the emotional traction, I've never been an emotional tampon for her but I've always been her rock and she seems very loving, obsessed, infatuated and happy with me and then she goes and does this.

We've never discussed this situation, I honestly thought this boundary was expected as a standard when you're exclusive in a relationship. Now I'm absolutely furious but really don't know how to address it. If I kick off if anything like this happens again she won't tell me, but if I'm not dumping her she needs to know this never happens again or we're done without me looking like an out of control lunatic.

 

[Will_V]

Thanks @Will_V

This was a failure on my part, despite having a conversation about what is and isn't acceptable I didn't think I'd have to explicitly state do not bring over guys home with you.

I don't think any girl is unaware that this is not acceptable, but the point of a talk early on is to underline the consequences. The way I do things is when the question of boundaries comes up I'll say something like 'if I ever suspected that you were cheating it would be over, no questions' and follow it up with something like 'I'm very good at reading people and I know when something is up'. Not in a threatening way, very chill and matter of fact. She'll usually completely agree with me here but she knows that it's somewhat in her court to make sure I don't suspect something which makes it far more unlikely for her to justify anything to herself in the moment.

I asked myself the same question. Making an excuse for her, I work full time in a very busy job and she didn't want to disturb me before an important meeting in the morning. I'd have rather had this phone call.

I didn't underline that I was trusting her siblings, I should've but I didn't expect them to fight with each other.

Yeah it's hard to foresee things. The way I like to do it is when there's something she wants to do that I don't like that much but I'm not going to veto, I will lay down enough subtle pressure that she's well aware that it's a thin line. If she tries to tell me I'm overreacting I simply tell her exactly how I see things and that it's not changeable, and we proceed toward whatever kind of discussion she wants to have.

This is a major red flag for me which is why dumping her is an option. I feel it would be an overreaction after she's been honest but I really don't like this situation.

Honesty does not vindicate someone of doing wrong. Some people lie or hide things and try to gloss it over by suddenly being 'honest' in a way that's supposed to be immune from any punishment. Don't know if it's the case here - though I'm sure she felt guilty and that's why she told you.

The question is, can you trust her from here on? I don't mean 'should you', but can you? Because as relationships go on, they only get harder, and the reasons to leave more numerous and compelling to someone who is not quite in the right headspace. If you can't trust her there's no point going on.

I would suggest taking some time over your reaction, only you have been around her all this time, your subconscious is aware of a lot more of the truth (either good or bad) than your conscious is and it takes time to come to the surface.

I want to know why she didn't come to me and why she thought it would be acceptable to invite him in. I don't like the situation she put herself in and again a major red flag to me.

So ask her.

This is multiple failures, the only "redeeming" part is the honesty. If I'd have found out about this in any other way I'd next her instantly.

Honesty is not a get out of jail free card.

I don't know about the emotional traction, I've never been an emotional tampon for her but I've always been her rock and she seems very loving, obsessed, infatuated and happy with me and then she goes and does this.

Sorry to be blunt, but is this what you want things to be, or is it how she sees things for real?

Is she spontaneously happy and enamored or has it tilted toward the 'respectable husband with his loving wife' type of dynamic where everyone knows who they are supposed to be but no one is really happy with what they are?

I don't want to jump to any conclusions since I know so little about this situation but something tells me that she is not having her emotional needs met in some way or other.

We've never discussed this situation, I honestly thought this boundary was expected as a standard when you're exclusive in a relationship. Now I'm absolutely furious but really don't know how to address it. If I kick off if anything like this happens again she won't tell me, but if I'm not dumping her she needs to know this never happens again or we're done without me looking like an out of control lunatic.

My suggestion would be to talk it over in detail with her, and try to get a clearer picture of what she's thinking and anything else that might be playing into it, without making any judgement one way or the other until some other time.

 

[enrico]

Thanks @Will_V

The way I do things is when the question of boundaries comes up I'll say something like 'if I ever suspected that you were cheating it would be over, no questions' and follow it up with something like 'I'm very good at reading people and I know when something is up'. Not in a threatening way, very chill and matter of fact.

I failed to state suspected cheating, I did say that I'm good at reading people and know when something is up. It was implied if I had enough reason to doubt it would be over but never stated.

The way I like to do it is when there's something she wants to do that I don't like that much but I'm not going to veto, I will lay down enough subtle pressure that she's well aware that it's a thin line. If she tries to tell me I'm overreacting I simply tell her exactly how I see things and that it's not changeable, and we proceed toward whatever kind of discussion she wants to have.

I didn't set any subtle pressure as I didn't think it was needed. No one can get near her when her security guards are around which made me accepting of it.

Honesty does not vindicate someone of doing wrong. Some people lie or hide things and try to gloss it over by suddenly being 'honest' in a way that's supposed to be immune from any punishment.

I totally agree that honesty is not a get out of jail free card. However I've been acting "normal" but a little more cold until I can talk to her and clarify things. If I don't next her this needs punishment.

I don't know if I can trust her. Her best friend goes clubbing with her without her bf and she's very protective of her and quick to step in if a guy comes near. Her behaviour, attitude, general outlook on this is usually great which is how she passed my screening to be a gf, she was always loyal. I screened her hard for over 4 months. I'm just frustrated that this happened.

I've been taking my time with how to react but we're meant to be going out with friends tonight. I don't want to put on a face and act normal when I'm furious but I don't know if I'll get the time to address this before going out and ask her everything.

is this what you want things to be, or is it how she sees things for real?

Is she spontaneously happy and enamored

She's spontaneously happy. We went a week without seeing each other and she was extremely affectionate, cuddly, saying please don't go a week without seeing each other again. I've really missed you. Constantly enamored with me, this was literally Monday night and then this happens a few days later.

something tells me that she is not having her emotional needs met in some way or other.

There's nothing I can think of where her emotional needs haven't been met. Her behaviour and attitude is always so obsessed and happy to be around me. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just blind to what needs I haven't been meeting.

My suggestion would be to talk it over in detail with her, and try to get a clearer picture of what she's thinking and anything else that might be playing into it, without making any judgement one way or the other until some other time.

Thank you very much for your input and advice, it means a lot. I intend to talk it over with her and get a clearer picture before making any judgement or decision and making that decision at a later time. Though I'm pressed by other commitments that I've agreed to go to a mutual friends birthday tonight.

We need to talk, I might have to cancel these plans to prevent putting on a face and pretending to be fine until I can address this

 

[Conquistador]

No one can get near her when her security guards are around which made me accepting of it.

Wut

I don't want to jump to any conclusions since I know so little about this situation but something tells me that she is not having her emotional needs met in some way or other.

I smell this too

 

[TomInHo]

I have a different approach when it comes to situations like this and understand guys here will say

- Set boundaries up front
- Let her know there are consequences for cheating

And I get where people are coming from but honestly that’s a huge waste of time. Because women are not stupid. They know when they do dumb things to compromise the relationship

If she is going to cheat on you, please believe she will cheat on you regardless of what boundaries you set prior. So save yourself the trouble of giving speeches and rules when it comes to fidelity

Now, the real question is why is this girl your GF in the first place?

Why are you committed to a girl that still goes out clubbing without you?

Why is she playing retarded jealousy plot lines by telling you she invited another man to be alone with her?

IMO you shouldn’t be rewarding jack shit. In fact if I were you I would reduce my investment a little because what she is really doing is testing your boundaries

She is seeing how much she can get away with and if there are any consequences to her actions

Appreciate her honesty but definitely give her some space

Less calls, less hangouts, overall less everything

And if she brings up why you pulled away then is the time to set a “real boundary”

Explain her behavior made you question how serious she was taking the relationship so you figured it was a good idea to focus on other things that need attending to in your life… then you both can hash out whatever comes up from that

That shows her where the line is and all this talk is cheap. Women and people respond to actions and not words

Her not getting her emotional needs met is BS

 

[enrico]

Wut

@Surveyor her security guards are her siblings, they act like security/bodyguards and don't let anyone near her

 

[enrico]

I have a different approach when it comes to situations like this and understand guys here will say

- Set boundaries up front
- Let her know there are consequences for cheating

And I get where people are coming from but honestly that’s a huge waste of time. Because women are not stupid. They know when they do dumb things to compromise the relationship

If she is going to cheat on you, please believe she will cheat on you regardless of what boundaries you set prior. So save yourself the trouble of giving speeches and rules when it comes to fidelity

Now, the real question is why is this girl your GF in the first place?

Why are you committed to a girl that still goes out clubbing without you?

Why is she playing retarded jealousy plot lines by telling you she invited another man to be alone with her?

IMO you shouldn’t be rewarding jack shit. In fact if I were you I would reduce my investment a little because what she is really doing is testing your boundaries

She is seeing how much she can get away with and if there are any consequences to her actions

Appreciate her honesty but definitely give her some space

Less calls, less hangouts, overall less everything

And if she brings up why you pulled away then is the time to set a “real boundary”

Explain her behavior made you question how serious she was taking the relationship so you figured it was a good idea to focus on other things that need attending to in your life… then you both can hash out whatever comes up from that

That shows her where the line is and all this talk is cheap. Women and people respond to actions and not words

Her not getting her emotional needs met is BS

Thanks @TomInHo I adopted a similar approach a few years ago, it's basically the alphamale2.0 ideology from black dragon. Alphamale1.0 will give lectures/speeches/rules. (Not sure if it's ok to link to other sources? - apologies!)

I used to be an alphamale1.0 and give speeches and rules, the thing that clouded my judgement here was appreciating the honesty and as @Will_V advised there's some questions I want to ask for clarity to decide on the punishment, in the mean time I've been giving her space.

Now, the real question is why is this girl your GF in the first place?

Why are you committed to a girl that still goes out clubbing without you?

This girl is my gf as she met the quality criteria and passed the screening process that was over 4 month. Loyalty, commitment, low fidelity risk and trustworthiness are checked and assessed.

She hasn't been clubbing without me in the 10 month I've known her including the screening process. I was always invited and the instances I couldn't make it she decided not to go out, seemed like a perfect candidate.

IMO you shouldn’t be rewarding jack shit. In fact if I were you I would reduce my investment a little because what she is really doing is testing your boundaries

Less calls, less hangouts, overall less everything

I've reduced my investment ten fold immediately, initially this was a stalling tactic while I asked the forum, cleared my head to prevent an emotional response, think if I want to ask questions/have a discussion or just terminate things.

If I don't next her, my investment all round will still be reduced, my time and attention are valuable and she doesn't get this until it's earned, this breach will be punished.

Her not getting her emotional needs met is BS

I agree with this, no disrespect to everyone else but I don't see where this is the case for how enamored she was with me just days before.

The only "need" that wasn't met, she didn't like going over a week without seeing me, though this will be the case again with less hangouts and less everything.

 

[Will_V]

Thanks @TomInHo I adopted a similar approach a few years ago, it's basically the alphamale2.0 ideology from black dragon. Alphamale1.0 will give lectures/speeches/rules. (Not sure if it's ok to link to other sources? - apologies!)

I used to be an alphamale1.0 and give speeches and rules, the thing that clouded my judgement here was appreciating the honesty and as @Will_V advised there's some questions I want to ask for clarity to decide on the punishment, in the mean time I've been giving her space.

Yeah that's the idea. First of all you want to sus out whether she actually cheated on you, whether you think you can still trust her at all - and if you believe you can trust her, how you want to go about changing her behaviour - before you start dishing out punishments.

There's a lot you can learn by talking to someone when you are very good at reading people and communicating, I think it's a very understated part of managing a relationship. It's very hard for someone to keep a secret when they feel able to fully express themselves. And words can be very powerful and influential when they have been constantly reinforced by action over a long period of time.

This girl is my gf as she met the quality criteria and passed the screening process that was over 4 month. Loyalty, commitment, low fidelity risk and trustworthiness are checked and assessed.

She hasn't been clubbing without me in the 10 month I've known her including the screening process. I was always invited and the instances I couldn't make it she decided not to go out, seemed like a perfect candidate.

In my opinion, this is the question that you need to answer definitively above anything else, if only to avoid wasting a lot of time next time.

I agree with this, no disrespect to everyone else but I don't see where this is the case for how enamored she was with me just days before.

The only "need" that wasn't met, she didn't like going over a week without seeing me, though this will be the case again with less hangouts and less everything.

I know it sounds very 'blue-pilled' on the face of it and is perhaps very unsatisfying to consider when one has potentially been betrayed, but the reality is that women operate in relationships on an emotional basis, and when they are satisfied within a relationship it consumes their emotions and it is very difficult to shift their attention and loyalty away from it. It becomes a powerful source of meaning that makes everything outside of it appear superficial and irrelevant.

Everyone has things they need from a relationship, some very common and others more of an exception. A sense of shared mission, an important role to play, variety and spontaneity, adventure, excitement, a path of self-development, recognition and encouragement, great sex, and many more. If a girl isn't getting what she needs, she will be unhappy. It may not show for a while, perhaps not for a long time, and especially in the first few months of a relationship when she is most adaptable and in love it can be hard to spot any problems. But it will eventually show up in one form or another, preferably by her coming to talk to you about it, but sometimes in a much less constructive way.

Maybe this is not relevant to your situation, it certainly sounds like you are self-aware when it comes to relationships. But you have this paradox - her apparent devotion to you, and her abandonment of you when she was emotionally vulnerable after fighting with her siblings. One of these is more of a reality than the other. And it's up to you to figure out which.

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

Quick note here, LTR rules around clubbing and social media aren't to prevent girls who want to cheat from doing so. If she wants to cheat, it'll be piss easy for her anyway... getting sex is like a female super power.

LTR rules around clubbing and social media are to prevent needless temptation and dangerous situations. The more temptation, the harder it is to resist. Like it's a lot harder to get lean if your fridge is full of junk food. It's almost impossible for most people in fact.

If you ever have a fight + she's drunk + an attractive guy with good game works her in a club or online, forget it. It's like done. Whereas if your girl isn't in those environments, a fight will usually blow over without much issue.

So I would definitely set LTR rules around "single behavior" like clubbing and having a bunch of thirst traps on social media. Whenever I hear that a PUA layed another girl who has a BF it's mostly from nightgame... girls who put themselves in that environment... they know what they're doing.

As for your situation, that's a bunch of BS on her part. Nothing to be rewarded here.

 

[Will_V]

Quick note here, LTR rules around clubbing and social media aren't to prevent girls who want to cheat from doing so. If she wants to cheat, it'll be piss easy for her anyway... getting sex is like a female super power.

LTR rules around clubbing and social media are to prevent needless temptation and dangerous situations. The more temptation, the harder it is to resist. Like it's a lot harder to get lean if your fridge is full of junk food. It's almost impossible for most people in fact.

If you ever have a fight + she's drunk + an attractive guy with good game works her in a club or online, forget it. It's like done. Whereas if your girl isn't in those environments, a fight will usually blow over without much issue.

So I would definitely set LTR rules around "single behavior" like clubbing and having a bunch of thirst traps on social media. Whenever I hear that a PUA layed another girl who has a BF it's mostly from nightgame... girls who put themselves in that environment... they know what they're doing.

As for your situation, that's a bunch of BS on her part. Nothing to be rewarded here.

Absolutely agree, though I believe setting rules on relationship-breaking things is important for frame control - like you said it won't stop her if she wants to do it, but when she's still in but tempted by something, it's a little voice in her mind that makes her doubt whether it's a good idea.

And of course, it's not about just saying words, but developing a history of meaning what you say.

 

[DarkKnight]

@Will_V I am like you I do not want any ambiguity. For me clear guidelines is important especially because we are in an era where most men are weak and enabling so who knows what the girl is used to in previous relationships.

 

[Mr.SocialAcceptableHarem]

Don't dump her, but be a little cold. Or not even cold but you just don't take her seriously as gf, and that plays out as you being a little aloof.

As long as you're not deeply in love with her, this will make you less attached and it's smart to not be attached to unreliable people. She'll put two and two together and either apologize or she'll think your not worth the effort and leave

I'd say either option is a win win

But if you really attached to her and don't want to gamble a bit, then you're gonna have to find some way to fix this problem she has with you in the relationship. Because dude, I don't think she told you to be honest, she told you to make you jealous because who likes telling the truth about something bad they did and then getting trouble?

Me when I was 3: "Sorry mom I ate all the cookies in the cookie jar"

NO, I would deny, deny, deny, because I don't want to get in trouble

People only go against the grain on stuff like this if there is something to gain from doing so, like creating a jealously plot

And obviously, even if she didn't cheat, she entertained the possibility of cheating with him. She probably won't tell you why she tried to make you jealous, you'll have to figure out what she wants by just being observant. I'm not sure if you can set the "If I suspect anything" frame now man, it might be too late in the relationship. Because asking her why she did it, isn't going to give you a real answer, there is every reason to lie there. And if you act stern about this, you may just end up in a big fight because you didn't set the authority frame early on

That's why I say aloof is your best option

I know you really like this girl, but giving the benefit of the doubt in situations like this doesn't make sense. People aren't stupid, they know what their doing.

putting your efforts into a person that does this is not rewarding, unless they redeem themselves, I know from experience

So aloof is your best bet at cueing her to apologize
Best of luck,

Biggus

 

[enrico]

Yeah that's the idea. First of all you want to sus out whether she actually cheated on you, whether you think you can still trust her at all - and if you believe you can trust her, how you want to go about changing her behaviour - before you start dishing out punishments.

There's a lot you can learn by talking to someone when you are very good at reading people and communicating, I think it's a very understated part of managing a relationship.

Thanks @Will_V I don't believe she cheated just from her demeanor and outlook. This is the first infringement from her and it seems completely out of character.

I won't trust her to go out without me again, other than that, and this is the first and only time it's happened, I don't know what behaviour I'd change.

I agree that reading people is an understated part of relationships and I can read her like a book. I didn't see this happening.

(This is for the quote below, I can't tap beneath it on my phone for the formatting)

She seemed very satisfied, happy, affectionate just on Monday night and nothing happened on the Tuesday before this incident. It is definitely a paradox because the behaviour is out of left field. It's a far cry from cuddling into me, stroking my arm, looking at me like nothing else exists and saying I love you. Please can we never go a week without seeing each other again, I've really missed you. I love you.

To clarify, her siblings had a fight. She was playing peace keeper and left on her own when they both stormed out. This still doesn't excuse inviting a guy back into the house. The correct answer is thank you for walking me home, I'm ok now.

I half know this guy, we've seen him out when we've been out, we have mutual friends. Walking her home can just be friendly and I can accept that, I hate that he was invited in. That crosses my boundaries and I didn't think I had to explicitly state this behaviour as being unacceptable, people aren't that stupid.

I know it sounds very 'blue-pilled' on the face of it and is perhaps very unsatisfying to consider when one has potentially been betrayed, but the reality is that women operate in relationships on an emotional basis, and when they are satisfied within a relationship it consumes their emotions and it is very difficult to shift their attention and loyalty away from it. It becomes a powerful source of meaning that makes everything outside of it appear superficial and irrelevant.

Everyone has things they need from a relationship, some very common and others more of an exception. A sense of shared mission, an important role to play, variety and spontaneity, adventure, excitement, a path of self-development, recognition and encouragement, great sex, and many more. If a girl isn't getting what she needs, she will be unhappy. It may not show for a while, perhaps not for a long time, and especially in the first few months of a relationship when she is most adaptable and in love it can be hard to spot any problems. But it will eventually show up in one form or another, preferably by her coming to talk to you about it, but sometimes in a much less constructive way.

Maybe this is not relevant to your situation, it certainly sounds like you are self-aware when it comes to relationships. But you have this paradox - her apparent devotion to you, and her abandonment of you when she was emotionally vulnerable after fighting with her siblings. One of these is more of a reality than the other. And it's up to you to figure out which.

 

[enrico]

Quick note here, LTR rules around clubbing and social media aren't to prevent girls who want to cheat from doing so. If she wants to cheat, it'll be piss easy for her anyway... getting sex is like a female super power.

LTR rules around clubbing and social media are to prevent needless temptation and dangerous situations. The more temptation, the harder it is to resist. Like it's a lot harder to get lean if your fridge is full of junk food. It's almost impossible for most people in fact.

If you ever have a fight + she's drunk + an attractive guy with good game works her in a club or online, forget it. It's like done. Whereas if your girl isn't in those environments, a fight will usually blow over without much issue.

So I would definitely set LTR rules around "single behavior" like clubbing and having a bunch of thirst traps on social media. Whenever I hear that a PUA layed another girl who has a BF it's mostly from nightgame... girls who put themselves in that environment... they know what they're doing.

As for your situation, that's a bunch of BS on her part. Nothing to be rewarded here.

Thanks @Karea Ricardus D.

I agree with all of this and I didn't feel I had to set rules on "single behaviour" after screening her for these qualities.

She hardly uses social media, there's no thirst traps and until Wednesday she's never been clubbing without me. I had no concerns of her LTR status, now this is in question.

We haven't had a fight, she was presumably drunk, this guy is not attractive and has no game. We have mutual friends so I half know him which makes it worse. I don't just have to watch out for guys with game, apparently any slob is a risk factor...

Thank you for saying there's nothing to be rewarded, it was this part that's tripped me up.

 

[TomInHo]

Yeah that's the idea. First of all you want to sus out whether she actually cheated on you, whether you think you can still trust her at all - and if you believe you can trust her, how you want to go about changing her behaviour - before you start dishing out punishments.

Yeah, forget all that sussing out stuff....It's pointless

He should just focus on what she has done so far with clubbing and inviting the dude over. That’s more than enough grounds to withdraw his attention. All this stuff about trust is just overkill because she has already betrayed it. If she didn’t this thread wouldn’t exist

There's a lot you can learn by talking to someone when you are very good at reading people and communicating, I think it's a very understated part of managing a relationship. It's very hard for someone to keep a secret when they feel able to fully express themselves. And words can be very powerful and influential when they have been constantly reinforced by action over a long period of time

Who has time for all this? Just deal with the situation in the moment then move on

I know it sounds very 'blue-pilled' on the face of it and is perhaps very unsatisfying to consider when one has potentially been betrayed, but the reality is that women operate in relationships on an emotional basis, and when they are satisfied within a relationship it consumes their emotions and it is very difficult to shift their attention and loyalty away from it. It becomes a powerful source of meaning that makes everything outside of it appear superficial and irrelevant.

Doesn’t sound blue pilled to me, but more like idealistic

Like come on bro, people are gonna be people. They will do dumb shit sometimes no matter how you show up. You can be doing everything right and a woman will still throw in a test here and there

In fact when dealing with women in LTRs the testing never stops. Women are natural boundary pushers and always looking for chinks in your armor

Plus we can't ignore that some people are just shitty too. I get that as men we think we can influence and control everything but the reality is that you can't. People make their own decisions and expecting them to act like perfect angels all the time is naive.

I don't care how much you learn about women or how much frame control you get, you'll never be able to control the actions of another person 100%. Of course have boundaries but understand you're dealing with another human being so expect some curveballs every now and then

Everyone has things they need from a relationship, some very common and others more of an exception. A sense of shared mission, an important role to play, variety and spontaneity, adventure, excitement, a path of self-development, recognition and encouragement, great sex, and many more. If a girl isn't getting what she needs, she will be unhappy. It may not show for a while, perhaps not for a long time, and especially in the first few months of a relationship when she is most adaptable and in love it can be hard to spot any problems. But it will eventually show up in one form or another, preferably by her coming to talk to you about it, but sometimes in a much less constructive way.

You pretty much described the honeymoon phase Vs reality. Women are almost always way more pleasant and complaint in the honeymoon phase. You start to see who they really are after that

Maybe this is not relevant to your situation, it certainly sounds like you are self-aware when it comes to relationships. But you have this paradox - her apparent devotion to you, and her abandonment of you when she was emotionally vulnerable after fighting with her siblings. One of these is more of a reality than the other. And it's up to you to figure out which.

I’m sorry but she is a fucking grown up. If she needs her man at all times to regulate her emotions with trivial things then she’s either very needy or just plain stupid

So her family has a fight and now she needs to be consoled by a random dude? Or she needs to call me in the middle of the night to complain about this BS… just lolz

I used to be an alphamale1.0 and give speeches and rules, the thing that clouded my judgement here was appreciating the honesty and as @Will_V advised there's some questions I want to ask for clarity to decide on the punishment, in the mean time I've been giving her space

I would just punish her on the behavior at hand tbh. Giving her space is punishment

This girl is my gf as she met the quality criteria and passed the screening process that was over 4 month. Loyalty, commitment, low fidelity risk and trustworthiness are checked and assessed.

Lol… 4 months ain’t nothing at all

And all those qualities you mentioned can’t really be screened very well during the honeymoon phase. I mean sure, there are some obvious red flags but you never really know how someone behaves in a relationship until you actually get into a relationship with them

Just have the relationship play itself out and make adjustments on the fly

She hasn't been clubbing without me in the 10 month I've known her including the screening process. I was always invited and the instances I couldn't make it she decided not to go out, seemed like a perfect candidate.

Aha… the perfect candidate before the relationship began. But then once she got what she wanted all of a sudden things changed huh. Don’t you find that rather suspicious?

This is further proof she knows how to act right but chose not to in this case for whatever reason

I've reduced my investment ten fold immediately, initially this was a stalling tactic while I asked the forum, cleared my head to prevent an emotional response, think if I want to ask questions/have a discussion or just terminate things.

Y’all need to chill with this termination stuff lol. Sure she made a mistake but just give her gentle correction and watch what she does moving forward

I agree with this, no disrespect to everyone else but I don't see where this is the case for how enamored she was with me just days before.

The only "need" that wasn't met, she didn't like going over a week without seeing me, though this will be the case again with less hangouts and less everything.

Some girls just like drama G. Maybe she needed more of it to make things spicy

Sounds weird as hell but some girls will do strange things in a relationship when things are going good just so they can get a reaction out of you. The chaos can be a great aphrodisiac and also acts a way to check if you’re still invested in the relationship

It can be annoying as hell but it does work in keeping the passion alive

 

[enrico]

Don't dump her, but be a little cold. Or not even cold but you just don't take her seriously as gf, and that plays out as you being a little aloof.

As long as you're not deeply in love with her, this will make you less attached and it's smart to not be attached to unreliable people. She'll put two and two together and either apologize or she'll think your not worth the effort and leave

I'd say either option is a win win

But if you really attached to her and don't want to gamble a bit, then you're gonna have to find some way to fix this problem she has with you in the relationship. Because dude, I don't think she told you to be honest, she told you to make you jealous because who likes telling the truth about something bad they did and then getting trouble?

Me when I was 3: "Sorry mom I ate all the cookies in the cookie jar"

NO, I would deny, deny, deny, because I don't want to get in trouble

People only go against the grain on stuff like this if there is something to gain from doing so, like creating a jealously plot

And obviously, even if she didn't cheat, she entertained the possibility of cheating with him. She probably won't tell you why she tried to make you jealous, you'll have to figure out what she wants by just being observant. I'm not sure if you can set the "If I suspect anything" frame now man, it might be too late in the relationship. Because asking her why she did it, isn't going to give you a real answer, there is every reason to lie there. And if you act stern about this, you may just end up in a big fight because you didn't set the authority frame early on

That's why I say aloof is your best option

I know you really like this girl, but giving the benefit of the doubt in situations like this doesn't make sense. People aren't stupid, they know what their doing.

putting your efforts into a person that does this is not rewarding, unless they redeem themselves, I know from experience

So aloof is your best bet at cueing her to apologize
Best of luck,

Biggus

Thanks @BIGGUS DICKUS: PUSSY MAN some very valuable points

I don't think she told you to be honest, she told you to make you jealous because who likes telling the truth about something bad they did and then getting trouble?

Me when I was 3: "Sorry mom I ate all the cookies in the cookie jar"

NO, I would deny, deny, deny, because I don't want to get in trouble

People only go against the grain on stuff like this if there is something to gain from doing so, like creating a jealously plot

This makes a lot of sense, I stated in the OP if she never said anything I'd have never known anything. This made me question how to handle the situation, if she gets in trouble (it needs to be punished) then next time she won't say anything. If there is a next time then it would be over no questions asked.

And obviously, even if she didn't cheat, she entertained the possibility of cheating with him. She probably won't tell you why she tried to make you jealous, you'll have to figure out what she wants by just being observant. I'm not sure if you can set the "If I suspect anything" frame now man, it might be too late in the relationship.

She won't be honest with this and I do think it's too late to set the "if I suspect anything" the best I can do is "if you put yourself in a compromising position to risk the relationship again it's over".

My issue with anything like this is it goes to speeches/lectures/rules again and I do agree with @TomInHo with this.

It's my own paradox of wanting to set clear frames and boundaries without having to give lectures and just letting people police themselves. I don't have time to police everything they do, anyone who earns the gf title should be policing themselves to not overstep the boundary.

She's overstepped the boundary and needs to be corrected.

 

[Will_V]

@Will_V I am like you I do not want any ambiguity. For me clear guidelines is important especially because we are in an era where most men are weak and enabling so who knows what the girl is used to in previous relationships.

Exactly right. People are growing up in this era where anything goes, in the TV shows and irl girls are running around doing whatever they want and guys are accepting it or giving them multiple second chances and entertaining drama and bs, thinking that they have to meet everything halfway or that some display of emotion means the girl should be forgiven or some other nonsense. So a girl grows up thinking 'I have at least 10 chances before anything is going to really happen, let's go'.

So you have to come in from the get go being crystal clear about what you will and won't accept and positioning yourself completely independently from any other dude. And of course you have to back it up with action in lots of small ways before she will fully trust that you mean what you say. But when you say 'if A then B' and it keeps happening, then all you have to do is say 'if X then Y' and she'll think 'hmm, if I do X then he's probably going to make sure Y happens, the same way it happened just the way he said all those other times'.

And not only that, but it trains you to make declarations and stick to them regardless, in this day and age where guys are trying to hedge their bets on everything and protect themselves from any emotional hardship at all, let alone self-inflicted. Making declarations is a very under-utilized way of motivating yourself and other people, I am always laying down my frame one way or the other, and when you do it in a way that's not annoying but very psychologically penetrating, women love it and are deeply influenced by it, and even yearn for it.

 

[enrico]

Yeah, forget all that sussing out stuff....It's pointless

He should just focus on what she has done so far with clubbing and inviting the dude over. That’s more than enough grounds to withdraw his attention. All this stuff about trust is just overkill because she has already betrayed it. If she didn’t this thread wouldn’t exist



Who has time for all this? Just deal with the situation in the moment then move on



Doesn’t sound blue pilled to me, but more like idealistic

Like come on bro, people are gonna be people. They will do dumb shit sometimes no matter how you show up. You can be doing everything right and a woman will still throw in a test here and there

In fact when dealing with women in LTRs the testing never stops. Women are natural boundary pushers and always looking for chinks in your armor

Plus we can't ignore that some people are just shitty too. I get that as men we think we can influence and control everything but the reality is that you can't. People make their own decisions and expecting them to act like perfect angels all the time is naive.

I don't care how much you learn about women or how much frame control you get, you'll never be able to control the actions of another person 100%. Of course have boundaries but understand you're dealing with another human being so expect some curveballs every now and then



You pretty much described the honeymoon phase Vs reality. Women are almost always way more pleasant and complaint in the honeymoon phase. You start to see who they really are after that



I’m sorry but she is a fucking grown up. If she needs her man at all times to regulate her emotions with trivial things then she’s either very needy or just plain stupid

So her family has a fight and now she needs to be consoled by a random dude? Or she needs to call me in the middle of the night to complain about this BS… just lolz



I would just punish her on the behavior at hand tbh. Giving her space is punishment



Lol… 4 months ain’t nothing at all

And all those qualities you mentioned can’t really be screened very well during the honeymoon phase. I mean sure, there are some obvious red flags but you never really know how someone behaves in a relationship until you actually get into a relationship with them

Just have the relationship play itself out and make adjustments on the fly



Aha… the perfect candidate before the relationship began. But then once she got what she wanted all of a sudden things changed huh. Don’t you find that rather suspicious?

This is further proof she knows how to act right but chose not to in this case for whatever reason



Y’all need to chill with this termination stuff lol. Sure she made a mistake but just give her gentle correction and watch what she does moving forward



Some girls just like drama G. Maybe she needed more of it to make things spicy

Sounds weird as hell but some girls will do strange things in a relationship when things are going good just so they can get a reaction out of you. The chaos can be a great aphrodisiac and also acts a way to check if you’re still invested in the relationship

It can be annoying as hell but it does work in keeping the passion alive

Thanks @TomInHo I'd like to address a few points.

Aha… the perfect candidate before the relationship began. But then once she got what she wanted all of a sudden things changed huh. Don’t you find that rather suspicious?

This is further proof she knows how to act right but chose not to in this case for whatever reason

A near 5 month screening process and a close to 6 month relationship before she's acted up. Not so suspicious, people make mistakes and girls like to test. I think the relationships been maintained well enough throughout this period to say she didn't change her behaviour as soon as she got what she wanted.

some girls will do strange things in a relationship when things are going good just so they can get a reaction out of you.

Everything was going good so this seems about right to me. She's flipped a bitch and created drama overreacting to things previously as little tests. I've always dealt with them and she's came back and apologised a couple days later.