Reward honesty? Hate the situation

[Will_V]

Yeah, forget all that sussing out stuff....It's pointless

He should just focus on what she has done so far with clubbing and inviting the dude over. That’s more than enough grounds to withdraw his attention. All this stuff about trust is just overkill because she has already betrayed it. If she didn’t this thread wouldn’t exist



Who has time for all this? Just deal with the situation in the moment then move on



Doesn’t sound blue pilled to me, but more like idealistic

Like come on bro, people are gonna be people. They will do dumb shit sometimes no matter how you show up. You can be doing everything right and a woman will still throw in a test here and there

In fact when dealing with women in LTRs the testing never stops. Women are natural boundary pushers and always looking for chinks in your armor

Plus we can't ignore that some people are just shitty too. I get that as men we think we can influence and control everything but the reality is that you can't. People make their own decisions and expecting them to act like perfect angels all the time is naive.

I don't care how much you learn about women or how much frame control you get, you'll never be able to control the actions of another person 100%. Of course have boundaries but understand you're dealing with another human being so expect some curveballs every now and then



You pretty much described the honeymoon phase Vs reality. Women are almost always way more pleasant and complaint in the honeymoon phase. You start to see who they really are after that



I’m sorry but she is a fucking grown up. If she needs her man at all times to regulate her emotions with trivial things then she’s either very needy or just plain stupid

So her family has a fight and now she needs to be consoled by a random dude? Or she needs to call me in the middle of the night to complain about this BS… just lolz



I would just punish her on the behavior at hand tbh. Giving her space is punishment



Lol… 4 months ain’t nothing at all

And all those qualities you mentioned can’t really be screened very well during the honeymoon phase. I mean sure, there are some obvious red flags but you never really know how someone behaves in a relationship until you actually get into a relationship with them

Just have the relationship play itself out and make adjustments on the fly



Aha… the perfect candidate before the relationship began. But then once she got what she wanted all of a sudden things changed huh. Don’t you find that rather suspicious?

This is further proof she knows how to act right but chose not to in this case for whatever reason



Y’all need to chill with this termination stuff lol. Sure she made a mistake but just give her gentle correction and watch what she does moving forward



Some girls just like drama G. Maybe she needed more of it to make things spicy

Sounds weird as hell but some girls will do strange things in a relationship when things are going good just so they can get a reaction out of you. The chaos can be a great aphrodisiac and also acts a way to check if you’re still invested in the relationship

It can be annoying as hell but it does work in keeping the passion alive

@TomInHo I agree with a lot of your perspective here, and I think your suggestion of pulling away a bit is worth considering as there's no doubt that some part at least of her playing up is conscious and intentional.

My issue with this however is that there always comes a time when pulling away will a) no longer be as effective and/or b) will cost you dearly. Especially once you start a family. Now there are times when you simply have to do it and bite the bullet - for example I will break up immediately with any women who cheats on me regardless of what we have built.

But the thing is, you want to never have to reach that point, because it is very costly. The only way I know how to do this is to tell her clearly how things will be, and then continually demonstrate that I am a man of my word.

This is perhaps just a difference of approach, I grew up with a father who had an iron frame, was always telling everybody how things were, and is to this day very adept at influencing people with his words. Regardless of whether it's the best way or not, it's the most effective means I have found.

Anyway it's good to have a few different opinions for people to mull over, and I hope @enrico finds the way that works best for him.

 

[enrico]

Thanks @Will_V I think this has been a very interesting post and the different perspectives and opinions has been great though it clashes with my own internal conflict of alphamale1.0 and alphamale2.0

Anyway it's good to have a few different opinions for people to mull over, and I hope @enrico finds the way that works best for him.

I used to set frames and boundaries for this, then I followed the 2.0 model of people aren't stupid and will police themselves, withdraw attention and they'll correct themselves and it worked very effectively.

In this situation I'm now conflicted between addressing it verbally with my disapproval or pulling away to show my disapproval.

I was going to call her today for clarification, though I'm now just wondering do I go very aloof. I missed my window to soft next by continuing to communicate with her while I stalled, granted it has been aloof and investment reduced so there's been some punishment.

(Going off topic but relevant)
I still feel in places I'm a recovering nice guy, I used to subside my alphamale1.0 due to society conditioning. This is possibly the urge I have to terminate it on this infringement, she will respect my boundaries and know that I won't tolerate it, this is enforced clearly with my actions, though she never gets chance to correct it on this model.

 

[topcat]

My issue with this however is that there always comes a time when pulling away will a) no longer be as effective and/or b) will cost you dearly. Especially once you start a family. Now there are times when you simply have to do it and bite the bullet - for example I will break up immediately with any women who cheats on me regardless of what we have built.

To interject.

The rule setting methods you apply, overt versus covert, depend largely on the stage and context in your relationship. Declarations and overt rule setting make sense in the context of a family yes, but good luck applying that to a girl in a bf/gf relationship of lower comittedness.

Until you’ve decide she is the girl for you and have made that commitment overt declarations and behaviour control will fall flat.

This is a very relevant article describing the two camps in this thread:

How to Control Your Girlfriend or Wife (in a Society that Frowns Upon That)

This Yuletide season, at a time of family, let's talk about maintaining a firm, guiding hand on your own relationships, so they do not slip away from you. Because that is more difficult to do in our day than it has been at many points in history. First off, let's address this: being...

www.girlschase.com

 

[Will_V]

Thanks @Will_V I think this has been a very interesting post and the different perspectives and opinions has been great though it clashes with my own internal conflict of alphamale1.0 and alphamale2.0


I used to set frames and boundaries for this, then I followed the 2.0 model of people aren't stupid and will police themselves, withdraw attention and they'll correct themselves and it worked very effectively.

I want to be very clear, I'm not saying that setting frames is a replacement for punishment, or that attention is not the most effective thing you can use to control anyone's behavior.

It's that you want her to know where the final boundaries are and that you will do exactly what you say you will, so that you don't end up in this situation you are in where the lesson is no longer a lesson, or (as I have experienced) where the consequence is unexpected and affects her psychologically in a negative way for a long time.

It's debatable how much someone will go ahead anyway, but at least when you have said your part you can dish out the consequence without any confusion as to whether she knew or didn't know (and perhaps more importantly, you are not in two minds about what you yourself believe because you have already said it).

In this situation I'm now conflicted between addressing it verbally with my disapproval or pulling away to show my disapproval.

I can only tell you what I would do, maybe it's the best, maybe not.

1. I would talk to her about what happened in an attempt to understand what her motivations are/were

2. Based on what I found, I would come to a conclusion about what is going on

3. If I can't trust her, I would break up.

4. If I think she didn't cheat and that she is still trustworthy, I would tell her something along the lines of 'what you did was completely unacceptable. <If i think I didn't make myself clear enough> In case I wasn't clear enough, this is what I will and won't accept (bla bla bla).

5. Finish with 'You should have known not to do what you did without me telling you, I'm not satisfied with your behaviour and I'm not sure I can trust you to make the right call on these things'. And then leave it a bit ambiguous like that, pull away a bit and make her work to regain her position, accepting that the relationship may soon be finished.

The good thing about this is that a) she knows exactly what your position is and b) you will know very soon if she wants the relationship back on your terms, because if she does work for it she has to accept your frame of what happened, if she doesn't want to accept your frame she'll get resentful and rebellious and you have your answer.

This is my way of doing things. I don't get easily convinced simply by being in a conversation with someone even when they are emotional, so I am never afraid to talk even when I am ready to finish up with things.

If you want to pull away first, I don't think it's a terrible idea, but it's just not the sequence that I would use, because I always like to follow up words with action, so that my word is all I need to use (most of the time).

 

[topcat]

Also something else I'd like to add as a potential bigger picture way to see relationships:

If you're dating a woman and are unsure of how serious or committed you want to be with her in a relationship (which if its a bf relationship, serial, early stage or mltr or fwb, is the case whether you're aware of it or not), why are you cutting off her access (escape routes?) to potential partners better suited to what she wants?

Isn't that the definition of neediness? [essentially: "I'm not sure about you yet, but i'm going to set rules and regulations for you that keep you tied to me, in case i decide you're the girl for me and i cant find better"] ... [or worse: "I don't think i can find another girl to replace you, so let me do what i can to prevent you from finding somebody better than me"]

Why not keep her for what she's good for and continue to sift through your options to see if she is in fact top of the pile?

From that perspective, if she opens herself up to other men, you take note that she hasn't made her mind up about you yet and is still considering her options and you act accordingly.

You can't build a committed partner, you find her where she's at and guide her accordingly.

 

[Will_V]

To interject.

The rule setting methods you apply, overt versus covert, depend largely on the stage and context in your relationship. Declarations and overt rule setting make sense in the context of a family yes, but good luck applying that to a girl in a bf/gf relationship of lower comittedness.

Until you’ve decide she is the girl for you and have made that commitment overt declarations and behaviour control will fall flat.

This is a very relevant article describing the two camps in this thread:

How to Control Your Girlfriend or Wife (in a Society that Frowns Upon That)

This Yuletide season, at a time of family, let's talk about maintaining a firm, guiding hand on your own relationships, so they do not slip away from you. Because that is more difficult to do in our day than it has been at many points in history. First off, let's address this: being...

www.girlschase.com

Interesting point and I basically agree.

The rule setting aspect is something I do 'in the third person' at the start, for example one girlfriend I had we had just finished sex and we started talking about relationships and what would end a relationship for either of us. And that's when I said very clearly my views, not directly involving her in the way I phrased it. Almost as if she hadn't reached that point yet but that's how it would be.

I don't think that targeting her specifically with a rule is a good idea, as it feels combative. It's more like just a statement of fact about my reality. And if she does break it, I might simply restate it (again not at her), show some disappointment, and pull away.

And yes, especially in the beginning (first few months or so) you have to avoid making explicit rules directed at her (to avoid trapping yourself and putting too much pressure on her before she has become used to following you) and instead focus on simply communicating your frame from a position of positive strength, and making her enthusiastic about following it. Ideally that's the way it would continue always, but sometimes it's obvious that you are dealing with something specific she's done.

 

[topcat]

Interesting point and I basically agree.

The rule setting aspect is something I do 'in the third person' at the start, for example one girlfriend I had we had just finished sex and we started talking about relationships and what would end a relationship for either of us. And that's when I said very clearly my views, not directly involving her in the way I phrased it. Almost as if she hadn't reached that point yet but that's how it would be.

I don't think that targeting her specifically with a rule is a good idea, as it feels combative. It's more like just a statement of fact about my reality. And if she does break it, I might simply restate it (again not at her), show some disappointment, and pull away.

And yes, especially in the beginning (first few months or so) you have to avoid making explicit rules directed at her (to avoid trapping yourself and putting too much pressure on her before she has become used to following you) and instead focus on simply communicating your frame from a position of positive strength, and making her enthusiastic about following it. Ideally that's the way it would continue always, but sometimes it's obvious that you are dealing with something specific she's done.

That’s fair.

To that degree then it may just be a matter of taste.

Me personally i keep things extremely ambiguous so that i get a very clear idea of a girls natural behaviour and inclinations. You leak too much about your expectations and any chick that likes you enough will display behaviours she knows you want to see to keep her in your good books. Whilst she’a actually a completely different woman in other company.

This is how you see 180 flips in behaviour when she wants to test you or cracks appear in your dynamic.

At its core this is an extension of the idea of hiding your Madonna/Whore perspectives when you first meet a girl as she’ll show you what you want to see.

Again, girls aren’t dumb!

Topcat

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

One of the best ways I've ever seen of enforcing relationship rules I saw on a clip from fresh and fit... some girl asked one of those guys "what if I want to go on vacation with my girl-friends" and he just says "you'd be single".

That's the way I set the frame now... you can do what you want, hang out with guy friends, dance on tik tok, go clubbing, go on a girl holiday, but you'll be single.

I don't argue with her, I don't debate her, I just say "do what you want... I don't date girls who do this kind of stuff seriously" and from there it's up to her.

If you get her attracted enough to where she wants the LTR, she'll take the rules just on that basis (cause really she knows damn well all these are single behaviors and this is more than reasonable and common sense).

 

[Will_V]

That’s fair.

To that degree then it may just be a matter of taste.

Me personally i keep things extremely ambiguous so that i get a very clear idea of a girls natural behaviour and inclinations. You leak too much about your expectations and any chick that likes you enough will display behaviours she knows you want to see to keep her in your good books. Whilst she’a actually a completely different woman in other company.

This is how you see 180 flips in behaviour when she wants to test you or cracks appear in your dynamic.

At its core this is an extension of the idea of hiding your Madonna/Whore perspectives when you first meet a girl as she’ll show you what you want to see.

Again, girls aren’t dumb!

Topcat

Interesting point, I will do that before the girlfriend stage where I don't set any expectations at all. Perhaps this isn't enough time, but I trust my judgement.

But to some extent I think your point about her changing her behaviour to what you want works anyway, because girls are always amenable to frames, I don't think a good girl will necessarily be very well behaved in other circumstances nor that I should be worried about that, as long as it is possible for her to be loyal (which I believe comes down to upbringing).

That's why I rely on my frame at all times, not only to create pressure but to strengthen and mold the positive things I have identified in her personality so that she is also motivated from within.

 

[Skills]

My gf had a family meal for her mum's birthday, after the meal she went clubbing with her brother and sister. It was a last minute idea and she told me she was going, her siblings are very protective of her so this shouldn't be an issue.

Her brother and sister had a fight and fell out in the club leaving her on her own but she stayed out with a guy and girl she knows. They're not close friends but talk when they see each other.

She was apparently very upset with her brother and sister and the guy friend walked her home. She told me he came into the house and she vented her frustration at him.

Due to her honesty telling me about this I imagine nothing happened, she could've kept quiet and I'd have never known. Despite this I'm still not happy that this happened. I don't want to be a lunatic and and kick off, I feel I should reward the honesty but I'm still annoyed and furious with this. (Guess I can't shake the paranoia or I really don't like the situation)

I don't like how she was in that situation, being walked home is one thing but inviting him in is unacceptable, though dumping her is possibly overacting and a touch insecure. Unless this is worth nexting her for.

How do you balance rewarding her honesty and but letting her know that, that shouldn't have happened and won't be tolerated?

well my take is if you have done proper screening, you trust her, and during the screening there was not history of cheating... no big deal.... This was not pre meditated, she went out, group fell apart, one of the dudes in the group walk her home, they were having a convo they cont. inside.... If when she was telling you the story you notice weird micro expression changes or lie then yes..... But no big deal in my book...If it bothers you, just tell her that please not to do that again that it bothers you for whatever reason it does, if it really does...

 

[enrico]

well my take is if you have done proper screening, you trust her, and during the screening there was not history of cheating... no big deal.... This was not pre meditated, she went out, group fell apart, one of the dudes in the group walk her home, they were having a convo they cont. inside.... If when she was telling you the story you notice weird micro expression changes or lie then yes..... But no big deal in my book...If it bothers you, just tell her that please not to do that again that it bothers you for whatever reason it does, if it really does...

Thanks @Skills I talked to her today and this was basically it. I have no concerns over her and this event. I called and asked to clarify things, she clarified everything that happened and why, that she didn't call to not wake me up over pointless drama when I had work.

She apologised and said that it won't happen again, and that she'd block the guy on social media and stop talking to him if I wanted. I don't want this, she can be friends with who she wants, I just didn't like the situation that this guy isn't a friend he's someone she's talked to a handful of times.

With how apologetic she was I feel like a right prick even phoning to clarify things.

@Will_V @TomInHo @BIGGUS DICKUS: PUSSY MAN @Karea Ricardus D. @Skills

Thank you all for your advice and views on this.

On another note I've found alphamale1.0 with clear communication works best with this girl. (She's 20 and very inexperienced with relationships) she noticed I reduced attention and was being "different" with her but she didn't know why and said she wished I talked to her sooner.

 

[Mr.SocialAcceptableHarem]

Thanks @Skills I talked to her today and this was basically it. I have no concerns over her and this event. I called and asked to clarify things, she clarified everything that happened and why, that she didn't call to not wake me up over pointless drama when I had work.

She apologised and said that it won't happen again, and that she'd block the guy on social media and stop talking to him if I wanted. I don't want this, she can be friends with who she wants, I just didn't like the situation that this guy isn't a friend he's someone she's talked to a handful of times.

With how apologetic she was I feel like a right prick even phoning to clarify things.

@Will_V @TomInHo @BIGGUS DICKUS: PUSSY MAN @Karea Ricardus D. @Skills

Thank you all for your advice and views on this.

On another note I've found alphamale1.0 with clear communication works best with this girl. (She's 20 and very inexperienced with relationships) she noticed I reduced attention and was being "different" with her but she didn't know why and said she wished I talked to her sooner.

Sometimes I think the worst of situations, glad it turned out well

 

[Conquistador]

The only "need" that wasn't met, she didn't like going over a week without seeing me, though this will be the case again with less hangouts and less everything.

That’s a pretty big deal IMO if it’s happening frequently. Was it a one time thing?

 

[enrico]

That’s a pretty big deal IMO if it’s happening frequently. Was it a one time thing?

@Surveyor going over a week without seeing each other was basically a one time thing and this was because we were both busy and our free nights didn't match. It's happened 2 or 3 times in about 11 months.

 

[Skills]

Thanks @Skills I talked to her today and this was basically it. I have no concerns over her and this event. I called and asked to clarify things, she clarified everything that happened and why, that she didn't call to not wake me up over pointless drama when I had work.

She apologised and said that it won't happen again, and that she'd block the guy on social media and stop talking to him if I wanted. I don't want this, she can be friends with who she wants, I just didn't like the situation that this guy isn't a friend he's someone she's talked to a handful of times.

With how apologetic she was I feel like a right prick even phoning to clarify things.

@Will_V @TomInHo @BIGGUS DICKUS: PUSSY MAN @Karea Ricardus D. @Skills

Thank you all for your advice and views on this.

On another note I've found alphamale1.0 with clear communication works best with this girl. (She's 20 and very inexperienced with relationships) she noticed I reduced attention and was being "different" with her but she didn't know why and said she wished I talked to her sooner.

The community has a problem with tons of guys that are not good at relationships kj, you have also dudes that are not secret society giving relationship advice, tons of projections, paranoia, redpill, Madonna/whore and guys that are good at getting laid or good at poly giving advice on mono same as kj to be honest....

Also all the labeling is just posturing, your girl does not give a shit if you are alpha or alpha .1 or .2 or .69 all none sense, i would study the sigma male that is were you want to be.... There are different things that work in different situations For mono relationship clear communication as you feel tested works best... Look it my archives for my reposts of pure evil he was pretty good at relationship mono, also the was another one in masf/nextasf called money matteo... Good relationship books for mono, is mark manson models (neediness/boundaries), no more mr. nice guy, passion trap, fountainhead...

 

[enrico]

Thanks @Skills totally agree, I'll definitely be checking out your reposts of pure evil and check out the recommended books. I guess mono relationships aren't the typical thing in the community, it's something I've not got much experience with so it's a learning curve for me.

For the labelling, the alphamale1 and alphamale2 is a distinction of mindset and actions that were set by black dragon on the black dragon blog. I don't know if I can link/reference other sources on the boards so my apologies if I can't!