FR++ She felt she didn't want to hurt me by sleeping with me...

[ChrisXKiss]

All great till the kiss. I would say, however, don't linger on the modelling conversation too long - it pumps her value.

Yeah also felt it went too long at some point, it was quite matter of fact though I'd say, I mean I was talking about it like I would if she was an accountant, so I feel it didn't get too bad.

Problems begin. This should have been a tease. This is kind of awkward and niceguy imo, you're kind of setting of a frame of her being something elegant, delicate, untouchable... something apart from and above you. You're actually creating distance between you with this sort of comment. I find it difficult to word, but maybe you get me?

When you want to be making a comment that brings you closer together, that lets you bask in the pleasant moment and connection, the feeling of deepening intimacy, you've said something that sets her apart from you, there's a sense of division. As if she's a passionless marble sculpture, so perfect, but so far away.

In fact I was going for a tease here. I said it in a kind of playful way. Sometimes I tend to say after the kiss that the girl kisses well, and in fact I enjoyed this kiss as well, but it was a bit static, so I thought to tease her about it. I didn't exactly say it like the "how to say it, model like, making a gesture like she is very elegant and proper", but I couldn't find the right words to explain my vibe at that moment either.

I agree that the comment didn't bring us more together though. That's a clear mistake, again I usually express that I like a kiss, not sure why I went this road exactly here, maybe to look not needy for her kiss.

Immediate punishment for your mistake. Frame controlled. Now you're discussing her resistance, and it's going downhill. I've had vibes like this. It's never good. Don't discuss the seduction. Let it just happen. One time I had a girl asking me stuff like what I thought would happen on the date, did I think xx would happen, and you're just falling into her frame. She's qualifying you, she's deciding, you're chasing, nothing good.

Also, never ever talk about her resistance. The resistance is only as real as you two agree it is. If it isn't verbalised, the second her state changes, it never existed. Poof! She just forgets.

Not sure if it was exactly resistance there. At least I didn't mean the model comment as a type of resistance when I said it, but more of a tease for the way she kissed, because she really didn't resist the first kiss, it was just a normal one that I broke first. And when she asked me about whether it still feels model like after the second kiss, I felt she was asking for validation, that's why I teased her again saying it still does. At least that was my understanding of the situation at that moment, could have been off. But still there was no reason to create the distance with that comment as you said.

Good point about not talking about the resistance though, I have been victim of it in the past, and yeah it does not work for sure. I guess I am too rational sometimes and I like analysing what happens and expressing it, which is not good. Also about discussing the seduction and the date I agree you have to just let it happen. I am not going for it in general, but I am quite analytical that if she asks something like that I may fall into the trap of talking about it.

Frame control continues. You got hoop theoried. Nothing good is happening here. Your asking back is reactive, and showing how much you care, it's a very see through attempt to frame control back, and she doesn't bite. Gotta say something cocky and funny here, laugh it off, change her state. I would fail too.

Yeah that was stupid haha I noticed it the moment I did it, I was literally thinking: "Why did you ask her back, now it seems like you are trying to escape the question, then you answer anyway falling in her frame". But it was a knee jerk reaction, not much I could do about it at that moment, just keep it in mind for next time, to not be afraid of any question I am asked, and respond nonchalantly.

Regarding the cocky funny I can see how it would work generally, in this situation I felt she really was concerned about something when she started talking so I wanted to make her feel like I listen to her and understand her. I think that up to this point the interaction was still salvageable at least, but it is possible I could have taken it in other ways as well.

Translation: "Please build a vibe with me I really want to build a vibe with you please please please"
Not the right time.

Yeah this did feel like that. I guess I told her something along the lines of: "Come lie here next to me", so it wasn't really asking, and I felt it could bring us closer and make her feel more comfortable next to me. I didn't mention it, but the moment she came and lied there, I also playfully turned the edge of the pillow between our faces for a second, jokingly blocking the view of each other, and she laughed.

I have a feeling that just even having this conversation is bad for you, but maybe other people know the right verbals to make it work. If I had any conversation like this I'd be losing.

It surely ended up bad haha. I do feel it would be possible to make it work though. Probably by being more clear and succinct in my communication. I think I talked a bit too much and felt like I was trying to explain myself to her at that moment to convince her. Maybe a: "Beautiful connections with people I have great chemistry with" could be a good enough answer.

She is pulling away from you, and you chase her, desperately try to keep the vibe. It's needy. You force her to push you away.

When a girl pulls away, you pull away a little too.

Yeah this was wrong.

You say that, but you keep pushing when she's signalling you not to!

Yeah I basically meant not expecting any relationship, because I thought we were both in the same page of wanting something casual at that point, so I wanted to assure her it will only stay there. But obviously her concern was not only that I am hot and she wants me now, but doesn't want me to get too attached. That's kinda what I thought she felt at that moment, and that the only reason she was resisting escalating then, was because of the fear of me being clingy later, so I thought that by escalating more I could show her I just want her at that moment and not as something serious. But the only thing I managed was to take the resistance because she was unsure about me and make it an even stronger resistance because I was needy for sex.

Translation: "As long as you are here at my place, I'm going to make you uncomfortable."

Yeah this didn't work at all. I have been experimenting with something like that as a hard push. My idea is that she either stays because she likes me and we will escalate or she can just go, her choice. But of course it's not working so I should change it up. I think that the one option being that if she stays we have sex is pretty binding, and no girl would really agree to it. Maybe I should frame it a bit differently, and say that I like her vibe and would love to spend some more time with her but she is free to go whenever she wants. I once overcame some pretty strong LMR with something like this, but I don't remember exactly how I had framed it sadly.

And iiiiiiiiiiIIIii... will always loooooooOOOOooove youuuuuuuuuu...

Yeah I simply got committed at that point to keep escalating until she literally left my apartment, didn't want to leave even the slightest idea in my mind that I gave up and stopped trying too early. My idea was like I push push push and she either stays eventually or leaves running. Not really effective so won't do it again.

 

[Skills]

I see what you mean, makes a lot of sense thanks! After she told me about her previous relationship, she even asked me about my previous relationships and heartbreaks and what I have experienced, and I did feel that it was a crucial moment to make her feel comfortable and that I understand her.

The bad thing is I have not had any relationships or heartbreaks really, so I always struggle when I have to talk about these topics. Is there a specific way to frame past relationships that brings the best results? Since I have not had the experience I want to manufacture something to be saying, but not sure exactly what.

Also I guess since this was a cold approach and I pulled her for a same day lay, I do all these steps compressed. Since you talk about slow gaming, would you even suggest that I should fully let her go from my place after she told me all that? I mean, when you tell her she is not ready and needs time to heal, and then you let her go, does she just stay and opens escalation windows?

Wait, slow gaming doesn't mean no to go for the lay on same encounter but if is not there no to go for the hail Mary towards the end, wanted to make that clarification... finally, the only thing I am kind of confused is why she said she didn't want a hurt you .i could interpret that as you came across needy, i have never had a vulnerable or post break up girl,say that ...oh, yes right on in diagnosis of the time to talk about relationships and break up...i have a break up post and video will link later, you can use pieces on that to relatability...

@ChrisXKiss here

 

[Rakehell]

Yes I see what you mean. One of the reasons of me not persisting was because it was feeling incongruent to. There was no sexual sub communication that would have had it make sense, and my persistence would end up looking as me suddenly chasing for sex, as it happened during this situation.

Easily forgotten when you follow a script.

For sure the second, and this is in fact what I have noticed in a lot of my latest interactions. It just feels like the natural thing would be to have a relaxed friendly conversation, and I want to escalate, I know I have to if I want sex, but it just feels off. That's why at some points I am like, well we are here, we have been chatting for a while, I can either go for the kiss at last or let it stay like that and nothing will happen. So I do go for the kiss, and they do respond well sometimes, but the general feeling is what you described.

How they feel too, she’s open to the idea, but emotionally she’s not “there”, especially if you hear things like them not being in the “mood” or “ready” or “it’s too fast”. It’s like eating before you’re hungry.

And yes totally. I think I have been overestimating my sexual vibe, meaning that I bring the girl all the way home two hours after we met, so of course I am a sexual lover guy. Or at least that's how I thought it was coming off to the girl. But just the leading all the way home doesn't bring her in the right emotional state for sex.

Yes to all of this, you’re taking the right steps, but forgetting the vibe. So once you’re home, it feels “off”. Even when she’s followed you.

Yeah I think I am doing that, maybe too much in fact, to the point that during the conversation I am thinking about how to bridge topics and smoothly transition between them to elicit her values in order to connect better so that she can get comfortable being intimate with me. I mean although I don't always talk specifically about sex, during the whole discussion I am thinking how to structure it so that she can be more ready for sex without explicitly saying it. But the thing is if the sexual sub communication is lacking, not talking about sex directly makes it all just be a friendly connection.

Yeah there’s nothing wrong with this, you just need to put it in action in a way that’s landing so that it’s reciprocated. Metaphorically she needs to “know you have a dick”.

I agree that the touch can help, I guess I started staying away from it due to your last point, I was going for touching and it was feeling off during the interaction. So I decided to simply create tension without touching and sexualise by talking about it. And I have made it work, to the point that I was giving just slight touches during the date, and at home we would go into kissing and getting sexual very fast. There was a nervous tension of us both knowing what this whole thing was about, but me basically not making any particularly sexual move until we were back home. So I feel I should just be making more clear one way or the other what this whole interaction is about, and things will be taking their way.

And thanks, I'll check the nonverbal stuff again! I like them a lot in fact, especially sexual tension, but I do feel I have to get better at physical game as well.

Yeah and there’s nothing wrong with this. I think you do really well based on what i’ve read, but closing is what matters at the end of the day. To me if you continue to do what you already do, but make sure that the sexual subcommunication is there so that she see’s you as someone “who has a dick”, you’ll have little problems.

 

[Marty]

I met her inside the main train station, around 7pm. In fact I was walking underground in the area with the stores and saw her from behind just at the entrance of a clothing store. She had just gotten inside the place and was looking around. She looked tall and elegantly dressed which I liked, so I simply went inside the store and told her I was just walking by saw her in and she looked really sweet and stylish so I wanted to come and talk to her. She took it really positively with a big smile.

She was free after meeting some friends and was planning to go home, I told her I met some friends as well and was free now, so I proposed we do something together, like a drink.

We arrived at our station, and I proposed an open air place for drinks next to it.

I then told her I really feel like playing some guitar for her and my place is close. She said yeah sure

I invited her in, let her take her shoes off, and gave her a glass of water

I said no I really have to see if the pill worked, and went in for the kiss.

And we did kiss

Hey @ChrisXKiss , I’m really impressed how you managed to meet her, take her out for a drink, invite her home, and kiss her all in one evening!

Obviously I’m not qualified to advise on anything, but I just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading this report.

 

[FAB DRONES]

Around then she started getting a bit more distant, she told me she is overthinking again,

I'm no expert on LMR or analyzing others', but, if i had to pinpoint the pivotal moment where it went wrong it would be here. It just jumped out to me because I first misread it as, you got more distant. I think my brain assumed that because that would be the textbook time to be cool and back off. But you didn't and she filled in that void instead of you. You should've been distant, then said something off topic to keep her from overthinking and to fill in the awkward silence.

 

[FAB DRONES]

Wait, slow gaming doesn't mean no to go for the lay on same encounter but if is not there no to go for the hail Mary towards the end, wanted to make that clarification... finally, the only thing I am kind of confused is why she said she didn't want a hurt you .i could interpret that as you came across needy, i have never had a vulnerable or post break up girl,say that ...oh, yes right on in diagnosis of the time to talk about relationships and break up...i have a break up post and video will link later, you can use pieces on that to relatability...

@ChrisXKiss here

she might have an std lol