Split this thread off from
@Karea Ricardus D.'s
journal.
On this subject: I will just note that I have witnessed multiple onetime mPUAs go through the "total loss of interest in ONS" thing and then start delaying sex. Sometimes guys may frame this as being a ploy for a better relationship. Often they will just tell you they're simply not that interested in casual sex anymore, after banging enough chicks.
One friend would do a thing where he'd seduce girls over to his place, then hang out with them just turning them on without making a move, until the girl was going crazy trying to seduce him herself. He pushed it too far on at least the first few girls he tried this with, with them leaving his place in frustration at being unable to get him to shag them (one was cursing him out as she left for not shagging her... lol).
I have noticed that these guys usually do get into LTRs after this, but it is typically with the same kinds of chicks they had LTRs with before they had their ONS loss of interest. It is not like they pivot to some different kind of woman or anything. It's the same girls, they just hang out with them a little longer before they shag. It does seem like their relationships are generally less dramatic than the ones they had when younger, though. It might be due to better self-control (study on that below).
On the ONS-LTR connection itself, one-night stands
lead to LTRs 27% of the time, according to one study.
There was another study that I believe I quoted it in The Dating Artisan (combing my research notes now I can't seem to find it) that IIRC found LTRs that sprung from one-night stands offered the same level of relationship satisfaction and duration as relationships that stemmed from drawn-out courtships. Since I can't find that,
here's a Buzzfeed article (lol) with a bunch of people talking about their LTRs and marriages from ONS.
Re: the self-control element, if you ask me, there's a big difference between folks who are shagging fast as a seduction strategy while also
screening hard for LTR qualities vs. folks who are shagging fast because they just can't help themselves, disregarding LTR screening because they view it as unimportant ("How can I judge her for being a slut when I'm also a slut?"), then
falling into relationships, at least as far as LTR stability goes. Drawing from the content I have in The Dating Artisan, here's another study: "
The sum of friends' and lovers' self-control scores predicts relationship quality":
Results consistently favored the totality model: the more total self-control, the better the relationship fared. Multiple benefits were found for having mutually high self-control, including relationship satisfaction, forgiveness, secure attachment, accommodation, healthy and committed styles of loving, smooth daily interactions, absence of conflict, and absence of feeling rejected. These effects might be due to high-self-control partners' use of accommodation when there is miscommunication or problems in the relationship. Additionally, partners might “outsource” self-control to each other; hence, having a partner with higher self-control enables more outsourcing.
This might explain the "retired mPUA who's taking it slower and having stabler relationships" phenomenon. If he was the "wild sex addict" type PUA (which IME is what most of the "shagged tons of girls then went totally celibate!" type of guy is), losing interest in hookups tends to coincide with a rise in self-control. Typically the chicks he is dating tend to be the same types he always did, but he's probably inadvertently screening for greater self-control with them too, since they need to wait longer to get him.
Quote from the video you linked on
long-term commitment:
On that "all but 1 out of 100s or 1000s of marriages are unhappy" comment... I didn't watch the video, but is this coming from a marriage counselor or something? If so, just keep in mind how big a problem
selection bias is among anecdata. Here're the findings of one more study I discussed in The Dating Artisan, this one entitled "
Is long-term love more than a rare phenomenon?"
40% of those married over 10 years reported being “Very intensely in love.” Importantly, correlates of long-term intense love, as predicted by theory, were thinking positively about the partner and thinking about the partner when apart, affectionate behaviors and sexual intercourse, shared novel and challenging activities, and general life happiness. Wanting to know where the partner is at all times correlated significantly with intense love for men but not women. For women, but not men, passion about nonrelationship factors significantly correlated with intense love. In a random New York (NY) sample of 322 individuals married over 10 years, 29% reported being very intensely in love and our predicted correlates cross validated.
So, while that video guy may have seen only 1 happy marriage out of 100s or 1000s, in this study it was around 110 INTENSELY happy marriages (not even including "fairly happy" or "content") out of 274, and in the New York one it was around 93 out of 322. Anecdata vs. controlled studies. Big difference.
Finally, let's throw in some more anecdata anyway: like
@POB, I have had LTRs from drawn-out pursuits (one where, as a novice, it took me 3 months to bed the girl), and I have had LTRs that stemmed from fast sex. I can't find any kind of pattern in these in terms of relationship happiness or stability. The 3-months-to-bed girl only led to a 2 year relationship that got real janky toward the end. The longest relationship I've had, OTOH, (far longer than 2 years) was a "sex on the first date" scenario. This same girl had multiple guys courting her who had been for months. One of them seemed to be making fairly good 'progress' and she had feelings for him. Didn't matter because once I shagged her he was toast. Relevant:
How to Get Girls: The Last Post You'll Ever Need The post "Should You Pay for a Date?" is still, it appears, attracting its fair share of outrage from what seems mostly to be women, who don't like the fact that I'm recommending, based on my own experiences and all of those of every man I'm...
www.girlschase.com
tl;dr If you want my take:
- There are loads of happy marriages. Don't ask marriage counselors, though; they just see the bad ones.
- Plenty of relationships come from ONS. There doesn't seem to be an advantage to relationship health or satisfaction from taking it either slow or fast.
- OTOH, self-control plays an enormous role. If the man lacks self-control and the woman lacks self-control, you're looking at fireworks. So, improve your own self-control and screen the woman hard for self-control. Partner count screening, slutty behavior screening, impulsive behavior screening, educational achievement screening, career success screening, all these are indirect screens for level of self-control. (whether she'll have sex fast is also a self-control screen, of course... but just one of many here; should be weighed in light of other screens. e.g., if she has sex fast but it's because you're very sexy and skilled and she's very inexperienced, lonely, and super attracted to you vs. she has sex fast because she always has sex fast and has done so with many guys, etc.)
Ultimatley IMO delaying sex just delays you gathering information you can use to better evaluate her as a long-term mate before you get overly invested, while raising your investment in her to the point it will be harder and harder to back out if bad things come to light.
Here's a fun scenario: Joe meets Angela, a gorgeous, fun, sexy girl. He's immediately smitten with her. The next day, Bill also meets Angela, and is just as smitten. Joe begins to date Angela seriously, delaying sex, because he wants this to work. They go on five dates over the next month, as Joe learns more and more about Angela, falling deeper and deeper in love with her, fantasizing more and more about a lifelong future with her. Meanwhile, Bill fucks Angela on their first date, during the same week Angela has her first two dates with Joe. In the pillow talk afterward, Angela reveals to Bill a history of lots of intemperate sex with lots and lots of men. Bill enjoyed the sex with Angela, and likes Angela as a woman, but he's also in the market for an LTR and Angela's past really rules that out for him. Angela has not revealed this side of herself to Joe, because she can tell Joe has a fantasy about her, and she doesn't want to disabuse him of that. Actually, she likes it; it feels good to be seen that way!
Which of the two men -- Joe or Bill -- is more likely to make a rational decision re: Angela?
Which of the two men is more likely to end up in a healthy, stable LTR with a girl who is exactly what he hopes to get?
Slow Joe or Speedy Bill? You decide! I know which guy I'm betting on though...
(also anecdata, but: one of the sluttiest girls I know didn't marry any of her fast-to-bed boyfriends or FWBs. The guy she married was a successful conservative university professor and self-made multimillionaire business owner who delayed sex with her for IIRC five months, all while being completely smitten with her. He would tell her how he loved how chaste and conservative she was and that she didn't like partying [she found his presumptiveness cute and hilarious], all while she was out banging random dudes to get her fix of cock while also dating this guy. Somewhere around the four month mark she started feeling bad about that so stopped taking other cocks, and then at five months of courtship they finally had sex. No idea what's transpired between these two happily marrieds since, as we're not in contact anymore, but considering this girl would crash at random male friends' places when traveling and fuck them just for fun, and do other stuff like that, I can
sort of kind of imagine how things may have progressed... but who knows, maybe she really did turn a new leaf... maybe the "delaying sex for a more meaningful relationship" mantra should really be "What you don't know won't hurt you" though?)
Chase
there’s a reason many of us have converged on similar conclusions and can call out these articles as BS
