The debacle of relationships and marriage in the west

[King]

What up boys, back after a few months, with lots of new observations, should make for some good discussion.

it seems the west is really becoming a horrid place for LTR's and marriage as whole, with the rise of feminism and big culture shifts in the last decade.

Here are some of my recent observations and thoughts, feel free to respond to the parts that intrigue you the most.

The Current Trends:
(As it pertains to: the rise of birth control, female sexual revolution, feminism, Kim K, social media... its getting pretty brutal out there)

The numbers seem to rise as less younger ppl wanna get married and have children - (ages ranging from 18-40)
I would say this is a bad direction for society as it reinforces that society in general is plagued with a new culture of too much running on the hedonic treadmill.

Also it seems roughly 75-80% of online dating app users are men while only 20-25% are women, and as such they have a ridiculous amount of choice. Is this the result of men being abusive and using their physical strength and dominance over the millenias, leading them to become unaware of the more nuanced needs of women? Or is the current result of society, in showcasing of how difficult and complex the many facets of womens needs are or is this just indoctrination of culture? Has the average man never truly learned how to figure out women and therefore the average joe is toast in regards to understanding all the underlying nuances? Sure seems like it.

One thing I'm realizing is that PUA game can get you through the first phase of getting a women and bedding her - but it is not the skillset that will help you build the relationship with her and help you keep her, that is a different skillset. - I will post a different thread for discussion on this.

Something psychotherapist Esther Perel recently mentioned in an interview, that I believe heavily rings true is that "we have never expected so much from our partners more than ever before - what used to take a village to do so, now we expect from our partners." I have a strong theory as to why this is, but I won't go into that now.

This is different for everyone but valid to an extent in modern times as she goes on to say that we expect our partners to give us the basics such as:
-companionship
-economic support
-family life
-social status

And then we also want them to be our:

-best friend
-trusted confidant
-intellectual equal
-efficient co-parent
-fitness buddy
-professional coach
-sprititual development guru
and last but not least - passionate lover
lol?

A little overkill, but to a certain degree I think she has a point, whether you have some of these needs for your own ideal partner or these are more the needs of western women, you can decide that for yourself.

Western women give less shits about men and less shits about marriages as well - younger generations wise especially - they are all self sustained with education and jobs. The more family friend invites I go to that have young daughters they all seem so masculine and on defense and confident in themselves, like they have this attitude of f*ck men and I'm good on my own type of thing - primarily gen z. Millenial women seem pretty humble, but thats because they are starting to hit that wall, and grew up in a different era.

I'm noticing also in the younger generations that the young boys seem carefree, relaxed - fun loving and no fucks giving - basically aimless and purposeless, with just one thing in mind -> get money to be more hedonistic <- while young women I'm noticing are hardcore getting their education or getting their grind on and making bank. Seems to be the new moving paradigm.

So what's everyones experiences and thoughts on this?

 

[topcat]

Honestly, the biggest antidote to believing that the sky is falling down on women’s attitudes to relationships and marriage - date some.

They still want marriage just as they always did. They still crave relationships as they always have. They’re still goofy as fuck..

Hey perhaps the landscape makes it easier for them to change their minds with minor repercussions, but their nature is the same as it always has been.

They’re as rebellious as they always have been, as chaste as they always have been. As needy for relationships as they always have been.

The internet isn’t real life. Irrespective of the fact that real chicks are aping what they see on it..

 

[King]

Honestly, the biggest antidote to believing that the sky is falling down on women’s attitudes to relationships and marriage - date some.

They still want marriage just as they always did. They still crave relationships as they always have. They’re still goofy as fuck..

Hey perhaps the landscape makes it easier for them to change their minds with minor repercussions, but their nature is the same as it always has been.

They’re as rebellious as they always have been, as chaste as they always have been. As needy for relationships as they always have been.

The internet isn’t real life. Irrespective of the fact that real chicks are aping what they see on it..

haha! boss response

Thanks big dog

 

[Will_V]

What up boys, back after a few months, with lots of new observations, should make for some good discussion.

it seems the west is really becoming a horrid place for LTR's and marriage as whole, with the rise of feminism and big culture shifts in the last decade.

Here are some of my recent observations and thoughts, feel free to respond to the parts that intrigue you the most.

The Current Trends:
(As it pertains to: the rise of birth control, female sexual revolution, feminism, Kim K, social media... its getting pretty brutal out there)

The numbers seem to rise as less younger ppl wanna get married and have children - (ages ranging from 18-40)
I would say this is a bad direction for society as it reinforces that society in general is plagued with a new culture of too much running on the hedonic treadmill.

Also it seems roughly 75-80% of online dating app users are men while only 20-25% are women, and as such they have a ridiculous amount of choice. Is this the result of men being abusive and using their physical strength and dominance over the millenias, leading them to become unaware of the more nuanced needs of women? Or is the current result of society, in showcasing of how difficult and complex the many facets of womens needs are or is this just indoctrination of culture? Has the average man never truly learned how to figure out women and therefore the average joe is toast in regards to understanding all the underlying nuances? Sure seems like it.

One thing I'm realizing is that PUA game can get you through the first phase of getting a women and bedding her - but it is not the skillset that will help you build the relationship with her and help you keep her, that is a different skillset. - I will post a different thread for discussion on this.

Something psychotherapist Esther Perel recently mentioned in an interview, that I believe heavily rings true is that "we have never expected so much from our partners more than ever before - what used to take a village to do so, now we expect from our partners." I have a strong theory as to why this is, but I won't go into that now.

This is different for everyone but valid to an extent in modern times as she goes on to say that we expect our partners to give us the basics such as:
-companionship
-economic support
-family life
-social status

And then we also want them to be our:

-best friend
-trusted confidant
-intellectual equal
-efficient co-parent
-fitness buddy
-professional coach
-sprititual development guru
and last but not least - passionate lover
lol?

A little overkill, but to a certain degree I think she has a point, whether you have some of these needs for your own ideal partner or these are more the needs of western women, you can decide that for yourself.

Western women give less shits about men and less shits about marriages as well - younger generations wise especially - they are all self sustained with education and jobs. The more family friend invites I go to that have young daughters they all seem so masculine and on defense and confident in themselves, like they have this attitude of f*ck men and I'm good on my own type of thing - primarily gen z. Millenial women seem pretty humble, but thats because they are starting to hit that wall, and grew up in a different era.

I'm noticing also in the younger generations that the young boys seem carefree, relaxed - fun loving and no fucks giving - basically aimless and purposeless, with just one thing in mind -> get money to be more hedonistic <- while young women I'm noticing are hardcore getting their education or getting their grind on and making bank. Seems to be the new moving paradigm.

So what's everyones experiences and thoughts on this?

The way I've always found best to deal with people with negative idealistic tendencies is:

- Focus on being a positive part of their reality
- Use frame control to keep idealism at bay

The truth is that most people don't care about idealism when their life is in order, they are having good satisfying relationships with the people in their lives, they have something to do every day they enjoy, and they feel that they are progressing in life at a reasonable rate. At this point, their primary concern is maintaining and building that lifestyle, and anything (including idealism) that threatens to upset it is naturally guarded against by their own resilient psychological immune system.

There are two kinds of idealists - the ones that devote their life to bringing about whatever change they want, and the ones who join the bandwagon when their identity is weak and threatened, as a form of refuge from the disaster of their lives, and an excuse for it having occurred in the first place. These second type of idealists are as ready to jump off the bandwagon as they are to jump onto it, and women are typically of this sort.

My approach during relationships is to create a secure sense of who we are and where we are going that gives her a strong positive sense of herself and her identity, and whenever any feminist or woke type of stuff comes up I steer it off by diminishing it and framing it as something that doesn't really apply to us. If she has some personal connection to the issue I will steer the conversation onto her experience and how she's positively dealt with it, so she feels that her having overcome it is more important than wallowing in it.

Idealism relies on a sense of desperation and victimhood, a sense of imminent and overwhelming defeat or dissolution, so that someone is ready to hand over their identity, their beliefs, and even their sense of reality to that ideal, in order to survive in some form. If she doesn't feel that way with you (and you don't feel that way) then with a bit of housekeeping it's not too hard to keep the snakes at the door.

To be clear, I haven't been married, but that's what I've done successfully in my LTRs and what I will continue to do in any type of ongoing relationship.

 

[King]

There are two kinds of idealists - the ones that devote their life to bringing about whatever change they want, and the ones who join the bandwagon when their identity is weak and threatened, as a form of refuge from the disaster of their lives, and an excuse for it having occurred in the first place. These second type of idealists are as ready to jump off the bandwagon as they are to jump onto it, and women are typically of this sort.

My approach during relationships is to create a secure sense of who we are and where we are going that gives her a strong positive sense of herself and her identity, and whenever any feminist or woke type of stuff comes up I steer it off by diminishing it and framing it as something that doesn't really apply to us. If she has some personal connection to the issue I will steer the conversation onto her experience and how she's positively dealt with it, so she feels that her having overcome it is more important than wallowing in it.

Idealism relies on a sense of desperation and victimhood, a sense of imminent and overwhelming defeat or dissolution, so that someone is ready to hand over their identity, their beliefs, and even their sense of reality to that ideal, in order to survive in some form. If she doesn't feel that way with you (and you don't feel that way) then with a bit of housekeeping it's not too hard to keep the snakes at the door.

Golden advice, I needed to read that!

Thanks brother!

 

[KJ Francis]

The more family friend invites I go to that have young daughters they all seem so masculine and on defense and confident in themselves, like they have this attitude of f*ck men and I'm good on my own type of thing

Lack of masculine polarity

Testosterone is dropping

New Study: Men's Testosterone Down Another 25% Over 15 Years

Over the past several decades, men's testosterone has declined by a lot. What's caused this huge drop, and what can you do to save your own t-levels? A recent study published in the Journal of Sexual Medicine discovered men's testosterone levels fell by 25% between the year 2000 and the year...

www.girlschase.com

To bring out her yin, she needs your yang (and wang)

 

[Chase]

@King,

Keep in mind:

Only about 1/3 of first marriages fail.

The reason the marriage rate is up around 50-60% is due to serial divorcés.

These people repeatedly remarry then divorce again.

Jeff Goldblum's character from Jurassic Park: "I'm always looking for the next ex-Mrs. Malcolm."

2/3 of first marriages never end in the West.

Just to put that in perspective.

Turn the social media stuff off and stick to interacting with women IRL, while avoiding the flashy/crazy/attention whore types, and they start seeming a lot more boring and regular and like chicks of any other era.

Chase

 

[King]

@King,

Keep in mind:

Only about 1/3 of first marriages fail.

The reason the marriage rate is up around 50-60% is due to serial divorcés.

These people repeatedly remarry then divorce again.

Jeff Goldblum's character from Jurassic Park: "I'm always looking for the next ex-Mrs. Malcolm."

2/3 of first marriages never end in the West.

Just to put that in perspective.

Turn the social media stuff off and stick to interacting with women IRL, while avoiding the flashy/crazy/attention whore types, and they start seeming a lot more boring and regular and like chicks of any other era.

Chase

Thanks for sharing your advice and insights... I'm def guilty of watching a few too many podcasts

Appreciate your reply brother!

 

[Swati]

One delusional of girls in the West is that their value at 18-22 will stay the same until they are in their mid-30s it drops steeply starting at age 25-28 from my eyes. And they believe they could get better and better that's the false reality people don't disclose or tell them. There are also ones that are pretty hardcore in locking down a guy and rule out lover boys after a couple of fucks because they're harder to tame, then they go for the "safe provider" at like 19-21. so King when you say that girl's brains are fried make sure you can see between the lines of reality and media.

!!!!! This isn't just the West my friend... Girls in all eras have been opportunistic; it's just that now more people see their nature without actually having experienced it in real life!!!! It isn't a bad thing... I remember last year in the chat, I said, "These days guys think they deserve 8-9s just because they drink some self-help guru kool-aid... 8-9s doesn't fall into your lap. It wasn't like that in the past generation, nor your grandparent's generation and it's not for yours"

The people who have success in obtaining love from girls short or long-term at high caliber all excelled in some area that displayed their potential as men. Even then it's not a guarantee these girls would stay with them.

I tend to fall for media images when I'm in low momentum thinking that most people are living way better lives, but in fact, it's just in my head or it's not something I can control.

 

[King]

One delusional of girls in the West is that their value at 18-22 will stay the same until they are in their mid-30s it drops steeply starting at age 25-28

Yeah bro my opinion is the same. I'm mainly looking at the 18-22 demographic.. like 25+ is old to me LOL...
However I've recently started to notice that their is this level of humility in girls that are 25+, I think its a hormonal shift/maturity shift and it makes them a lot less emotionally turbulent to talk with as they are calmer, till then their energy is kind of chaotic and all over the place.

AT THE SAME TIME, I've noticed something interesting, in regards to younger girls is that if I play this older guru - authority role and also use certain psychology techniques to calm them down,(as they seem higher in anxiety than older women) and teach them truths/lessons about life, they seem to get aroused by that, calm down and they submit more easily. Good reminder

Its like a classic reminder of femine energy being chaos and masculine being order and structure... daam that was sexy to think and write about.

There are also ones that are pretty hardcore in locking down a guy and rule out lover boys after a couple of fucks because they're harder to tame, then they go for the "safe provider" at like 19-21. so King when you say that girl's brains are fried make sure you can see between the lines of reality and media.

That is really good to know for pre-qualifying myself and weeding out girls that are not aligned with me. Thanks bro

!!!!! This isn't just the West my friend... Girls in all eras have been opportunistic; it's just that now more people see their nature without actually having experienced it in real life!!!! It isn't a bad thing... I remember last year in the chat, I said, "These days guys think they deserve 8-9s just because they drink some self-help guru kool-aid... 8-9s doesn't fall into your lap. It wasn't like that in the past generation, nor your grandparent's generation and it's not for yours"

The people who have success in obtaining love from girls short or long-term at high caliber all excelled in some area that displayed their potential as men. Even then it's not a guarantee these girls would stay with them.

I like how brutally honest you are.. Heavily based in reality. Something to keep striving for and something I'm focusing on more hardcore these days. I think its also important to build out a social life for ourselves and build a strong network.. easier to meet more 8s and 9s that way but also build up social skills - frame and status

I tend to fall for media images when I'm in low momentum thinking that most people are living way better lives, but in fact, it's just in my head or it's not something I can control.

Yup definetely have been guilty of this from time to time. Good insight.. thanks for sharing bro