FR+ TinyTatarka

[Marty]

TLDR: met an attractive and bubbly lady in daytime cold approach; set a date for the same evening; had dinner together; kissed her goodbye.

Approach and opening

I took a few days off for a long weekend and made a trip to Moscow. Last Sunday in Victory Park, I was sitting on a bench by a flowerbed along one of the broad pathways leading toward the main memorial on Poklonnaya Gora when a petite lady walked past me. A very slim girl, she had long fair hair, as well as a very attention-grabbing pelvic area and thighs, highlighted by the coral-colored pencil skirt she was wearing to just above the knee, complemented by nude patent heels. The short denim jacket she had on top was cut high enough not to obscure the view of her rear. We'll call her TinyTatarka.

I got up and followed a few dozen paces behind. She made a left turn along one of the tree-lined alleys. I followed. She seemed not to be in a hurry anywhere. After pausing at an outbuilding in front of the chapel, where music was playing, she turned back and returned to the main path, passing me head-on. I walked on and turned right, taking a parallel path, drawing inspiration from the last paragraph of this post. Then I turned right again to get myself back on the main avenue and to figure out where that put me relative to her. She was dawdling somewhat and was well behind. I turned left on the approach to the memorial and took a seat again on another bench. By this time, I was pretty sure she had noticed me too.

I was not exactly dressed fancy. I had felt hot during the past two days walking in the city, so this time I had opted for a tight-fitting white T-shirt, the sort that comes out of a packet and is possibly intended more as an undershirt, but I think it flatters my upper body. I had on a white baseball cap I had bought at a tourist store, and underneath I had navy jeans and matching leather sneakers. I think my musculature is decent due to time spent in the gym, but my overall weight is perhaps 10 kg higher than it should be, with some difficulty losing visceral fat around the waist, so my confidence was about middling. I decided to make the best of the situation.

When the girl caught up, she was surrounded by foreign tourists snapping photos and making a lot of noise. I figured it was now or never. Furthermore, the tourists were all speaking in a (presumably) Far Eastern language that I wasn't familiar with, and the girl was obviously a local, so if I opened loudly in Russian she'd know it was addressed to her. I decided to copy-paste this old approach but simplify the verbal part of the interaction considerably, since I am not as into the swing of things as I was back then, and I hadn't managed to get such a close read on the girl just yet. I drew parallel and quite close, made sure she had seen me and knew I was in her periphery, despite the buzzing tourists, kept my eyes looking straight ahead, and said, loudly:

Marty: You have a very cute walk.
TinyTatarka: (turns to look at me, broadly smiling)
Marty: (turning to meet eyes with her, slow, warm smile) What's your name?

She gave a Tatar name that I didn't catch at first, and I had to ask her to repeat it. I introduced myself. Just then, I wasn't entirely sure that she had bitten, but it became apparent that she'd just moved aside a little to let the tourists pass. She was still smiling. I clasped her hand.

We began conversation. I explained right away that I was just visiting for a few days, and I learned that she had moved to Moscow a year ago; she named her hometown, a city in the Volga Basin. After a couple minutes, I felt it was time to move her.

Marty: Shall we take a seat on one of those benches over there?
TinyTatarka: Certainly.
Marty: Do you prefer a spot in the shade, or in the sunshine?
TinyTatarka: In the sunshine.

We sat reasonably close and started getting to know each other. She was a successful professional, an associate director at a construction firm. I'd put her at about 38, based on some personal information she gave me, but it was hard to tell. She looked pretty young. I handed her my phone and had her enter my number. She told me to look for her on Telegram, and I sent a message to ensure she had my contacts too.

I needed to decide upon the next step pretty quickly, and I didn't really want to attempt to take her anywhere from here in the middle of the day, in the summer sunshine, when I wasn't dressed my best or feeling at my freshest. I had two evenings left in Moscow, and the following day, in the late afternoon, I was seeing an old female friend, one of the four women (excluding relatives) I like best in the world; so tonight would be the best option. Luck, it turned out, was on my side, in the form of a time constraint that I was able to leverage to our joint advantage.

TinyTatarka: Apparently, behind the main memorial, there's a nice view over the city.
Marty: Would you like to go see it together now?
TinyTatarka: (looking at wristwatch) If we have time...
Marty: Do you have an engagement this afternoon?
TinyTatarka: I have a hairdresser's appointment at 14:00.

Perfect! It was around 12:30 now.

Marty: Ah okay! Well if you're busy now, how about dinner this evening?
TinyTatarka: I'd be delighted.
Marty: 19:00? 20:00?
TinyTatarka: Either works for me.

I told her I'd be in touch with a proposal for dinner, wished her a relaxed afternoon at the beauty parlor, and made my exit.

As I retreated back toward the subway station where I had arrived, I considered the above interaction. Two connected points came to mind. First, she had been enormously compliant: upon opening, when moving to the bench, with the number close, and with the dinner invitation (even leaving the exact timing to me). Second, something was telling me I needed to manage my attainability. This was partly occasioned by the compliance, but also by the fact that I was in town only for a few days—a point I had been at pains to repeat several times, to avoid misunderstanding. Nonetheless, she had been happy to make plans. There was something else as well. I noticed I had gotten a reply from her to my initial "Hello TinyTatarka, this is Marty" text, that had been intended only to share my contact details as we sat together and to remind her of my name.

Texting and intermission

Tiny Tatarka: Good day! Glad to meet you.

I realized that I should probably throw out that part of the process that involved sending an icebreaker after approximately 1 to 4 hours. First, I wanted her to think about me when she was in the hairdresser's chair, and if I waited that long, the text would come when she was busy getting her hair done. Second, she had already texted me back, as shown above, so it was ridiculous to wait. Third, I needed to get dinner logistics nailed down.

She had responded as above to my initial contact-sharing text at 12:42, local time, so at 13:01 I sent her the Yandex location page of a restaurant very near my hotel where I had eaten excellently the day before:

Marty: TinyTatarka, if it suits you, I have reserved a table for 19:30 today at this restaurant
TinyTatarka: Yes, certainly. I will make it by that time for sure.

I then sent her a photo of the architecturally iconic external vestibule of the subway station, dating from 1935, that I had taken the day before with the following text:

Marty: The entrance is right by this subway station, but if you prefer, I can order a taxi for you
TinyTatarka: Thank you for the offer, but I don't need a taxi. I will make my own way there. I'll get a bit of a walk in this nice weather.
Marty: I look forward to seeing you with your fresh haircut. See you this evening!

She placed a "heart" reaction on the last message. I went to see one more attraction, the view of the city from the Sparrow Hills. In front of the huge Moscow State University building, students were recording a TikTok video of partner dances. The girls were all in long, tight-fitting dresses, half of them in a creamy color, half in black; the young men had on matching tight pants and sleeveless shirts. I walked down to the embankment and took a riverboat to Kitai-Gorod, then went back to the hotel to rest. In case I wanted to invite TinyTatarka back that evening, I took care not to mess up the hotel room that the housekeeping staff had beautifully tidied.

Date and close

To contrast with my rather informal appearance on the approach, I put on a light cotton button-down in French blue, pressed indigo jeans, deep-brown polished Oxfords, and a new ivory-colored blazer that fits me excellently. My confidence had been boosted by TinyTatarka's compliance so far, but nonetheless I followed process and fired off an anti-flaking text at 18:56:

Marty: Good evening, TinyTatarka, I will be at the venue right on time. -Marty
TinyTatarka: Good evening, Marty, very good. According to Yandex Maps I'll be at the location in another 35 minutes.
Marty: Excellent!

At 19:33:

Marty: I am at the entrance to the establishment.
TinyTatarka: Very good. I am 7 to 10 minutes late, unfortunately.
Marty: Not to worry

I reported to the hostess stand and made it clear that I had arrived, but that the lady would be there in a few minutes, because the restaurant had a policy of canceling reservations 15 minutes after the appointed time.

TinyTatarka showed up in the same nude heels as before, but paired with a cream-colored pencil skirt this time, and on top she had a deep cut sleeveless blouse, showing off both her decolletage and the region of upper arms and shoulders that can be so bewitching on women. Her chest, by the way, was pretty small, but I like it that way; not every man does, I know. I like both actually.

I guided her through the door by the small of the back. Obviously, the hostess recognized me from a few minutes before, and led us without a word to our table.

Conversation over dinner was warm and flowing and touched on multiple subjects, many of which we connected on. She had an ethos of wanting to achieve much, and got up early every day to facilitate this. I praised her, but told her to take care of herself as well and not to burn the candle at both ends. I used Cody's technique of telling her she looked cute after returning to the table, then quickly changing the subject. Early on in the evening, when she asked me where I was staying, I made sure she knew that my hotel was right around the corner, in case there was a chance that she'd agree to a pull. There were a few moments of tension, where we stared into each other's eyes, which she feebly tried to defuse by saying such things as "What? You're embarrassing me!" while smiling broadly with sparkling eyes.

I made a slight screw-up on the kino toward the end of the evening. After dessert, I'd wanted to use the old standard of taking her hand at a high point in the conversation and saying something like "I mean, you're funny, and you're charming, but I feel like there's more there that you're afraid to show. But you shouldn't be." (Those particular words weren't relevant to the conversation, so I picked something else according to the context, but the spirit was the same.) However, what I failed to notice was that her hands were actually clasped right up close to her chest, and as I reached to take her hand, I accidentally grabbed one of her boobs as well (remember, they are tiny and not too noticeable) and to make matters worse, right at that moment, the waitress showed up with the check that I had requested a few moments previously. To draw a line under this unfortunate event, I cut out what I was saying altogether, apologized gently to the girl, and then attended with great seriousness to paying the check and figuring the tip amount!

To her credit, she took it extremely well, considering that a man who had been polite and warm all evening had suddenly fondled one of her breasts accidentally right in front of the restaurant staff, and brushed it off. We went outside to walk. I normally walk with the woman on my right, she taking my right arm, but TinyTatarka had her purse on her left side, so I asked which way round she preferred to walk with men. She said she didn't mind, but didn't move her purse, so the upshot was that I switched sides and had her take my left arm. Some women seem to prefer this lately, I've noticed, including "Botticelli", so I'm slowly getting used to it no sense in being stuck in one's ways

We strolled along the Boulevard Ring, arm-in-arm, deep in conversation. I knew that she was getting up early Monday morning, and that it would be her bedtime soon. I kissed her about halfway along the tree-lined central footpath, in the evening light: The sun sets late at that time of year in Moscow, and it was still a half-hour before dusk. She had told me in what part of town she lived, and as we came to the end of that section of the Boulevard Ring, I recognized that the subway station was on her line. We kissed goodbye at around 21:00.

She texted me already from the metro:

TinyTatarka: Thank you for a wonderful evening! I was very glad to meet you.
Marty: I was too please write me when you get home
TinyTatarka: Yes, of course, I will write

(35 minutes later)

TinyTatarka: I just got home.
Marty: Thanks for letting me know! Sleep well, good night.
TinyTatarka: Good night!

She even texted me again 24 hours later to ask how the last day of my visit had been.

Conclusion and assessment

The approach went smoothly. I was a little hesitant at first and wanted to make sure that she was aware of my presence rather than startling her with a sudden opener, so with the all the turns on the park pathways and whatnot, this reads perhaps a little less flashy than the FRs of the more experienced members; but I felt it was reasonably well calibrated to the situation. A super in-demand and much younger woman might have punished me for all the fiddling around getting her contacts and connecting on Telegram, but again, with this woman who clearly liked me, this didn't seem to be a problem.

I don't think there were any issues with the texting; it was smooth, minimalistic, and efficient.

The date was enjoyable and had a warm feeling to it. I definitely think that there was a romantic spark, but because of the temporary nature of my visit, it may have been that she was resisting getting in too deep. I very much like the 'whirlwind romance' ideal that is encouraged on this site, but as recently mentioned in Chase's sticking-point thread, I struggle with making it work.

Recently, some people have been discussing reduced value upon approach. I am not really concerned about that, because without approach I am nothing anyway and there will be no results (and most likely I was never noticed in the first place). What I am, however, very nervous about is making requests for sexual access. Here I really do feel a depressed value, because it basically amounts to admitting that one is human and has instinctual urges, and the implication of this admission is that the potential for these urges to be gratified or frustrated is outside one's own control. I can't imagine many things more mortifying than that to one's own self-image, therefore, I struggle with it badly. This then gets in the way of intimacy. As always, all tips, guidance, and encouragement will be appreciated.

 

[mrman]

Wait you know you’re supposed to walk on the outside of her

 

[Marty]

Wait you know you’re supposed to walk on the outside of her

Sure, on a narrow sidewalk with traffic whizzing by.

That was emphatically not the situation here. Streets in downtown Moscow are generally built on a grand scale, with very broad footpaths, and where we were walking on the Boulevard Ring, there is a central median some 25 meters wide, bordered by trees (hence the name), so there is no danger from traffic nor indeed any concept of “outside” or “inside”.

Did you have any input on the main topic, Mr. Man, for example, how I could have brought her to a state where she was ready to be pulled?

 

[Jan]

It's not clear which part of your process/situation you would like some feedback on. You don't mention anything about trying to pull her, I can't see any intention to have sex with her. If a romantic stroll and dinner is what you wanted, then I guess you got what you wanted.

 

[gameboy]

She had told me in what part of town she lived,

This was your escalation window.

EDIT: Everything else looked great to me, though I skipped some parts as I'm short on time. Just the part were you brushed her breasts, I don't think you should've even worried about that let alone apologize. If she took it well she probably even liked it. If she had complained, then that would have been a reason to apologize. But she didn't.

 

[Stark]

What I am, however, very nervous about is making requests for sexual access. Here I really do feel a depressed value, because it basically amounts to admitting that one is human and has instinctual urges, and the implication of this admission is that the potential for these urges to be gratified or frustrated is outside one's own control.

This is relatively easy for me, I rely heavily on sexual framing to accomplish this, from early on in the interaction, texts leading to the date, and midway through the date.

I think you did quite well, to be honest during the approach except for the parts where you asked her permission. I would add seductive eye contact and touching/caressing her during the high points of the interaction.

Texting her an innocuous, borderline indecent yet classy question of "What have you picked out to wear for this evening" can set the tone quite effectively.

I have a suspicion you dialed back on the sexual framing considering she's in her 30's. That's okay but considering she had turned up on the date knowing that you're here on a short stay suggests she was open to going to your hotel the same night.

Look up Teevster's posts on sexual gambits and sexual framing. I bring up my version of this somewhere midway through the date looking at her in a deadpan manner. All the while during this conversation, you would project non-neediness, sexual experience, and a taste for dirty/kinky sex.
Then I stay away from sexual topics for a while.

This perfectly sets the frame where you can say "I would love to show you the view from my balcony"/"I would like us to enjoy a bit of private time together"( then proceed to take her to the hotel without verbalizing it.) I like to mention the hotel as it adds to the sexual frame that I have set up so far.

Whenever my logistics is a hotel room, I always mention how classy/nice/great the view is to counter the irrational objections spinning in her head.

 

[Marty]

It's not clear which part of your process/situation you would like some feedback on. You don't mention anything about trying to pull her, I can't see any intention to have sex with her. If a romantic stroll and dinner is what you wanted, then I guess you got what you wanted.

Thank you for commenting on my field report, Jan, and I appreciate your feedback.

You make a good point, and yes, it was an enjoyable evening. However, on both the main site and this forum, there are articles and comments making the case that sleeping with a woman helps to cement her feelings and makes it easier to reconnect later for further adventures, in line with the site's overall philosophy of "moving fast". I'm not sure why that would be, but I take it on faith, since everything else I read here seems to work well also. Therefore, having made the preparations I mentioned in the report:

I sent her the Yandex location page of a restaurant very near my hotel where I had eaten excellently the day before:

In case I wanted to invite TinyTatarka back that evening, I took care not to mess up the hotel room that the housekeeping staff had beautifully tidied.

when she asked me where I was staying, I made sure she knew that my hotel was right around the corner

...I had hoped to have an opportunity to invite her back, especially since when we strolled that one section of the Boulevard Ring, we walked right past where I was staying, and (there being two possible directions to circle the ring) when I had asked her after dinner which way she wanted to go, she had pointed in that direction, the same way that I had indicated at the beginning of the evening when she had asked me about my accommodation.

In addition, perhaps a day or two before meeting this girl, I had read a post by, I believe, @Will_V, stating that a common mistake he sees in beginners is interacting with a woman without a clearly-defined goal. (I should have bookmarked it, infuriatingly I can't resurface it now in search results.) He then suggests that a good goal is to invite a woman back to one's place. So I went out resolved to invite the next girl I met back to where I was staying. However, as is mentioned in the report:

I definitely think that there was a romantic spark, but because of the temporary nature of my visit, it may have been that she was resisting getting in too deep. I very much like the 'whirlwind romance' ideal that is encouraged on this site, but ... I struggle with making it work.

...I sensed no opportunity to do so.

 

[Will_V]

Thank you for commenting on my field report, Jan, and I appreciate your feedback.

You make a good point, and yes, it was an enjoyable evening. However, on both the main site and this forum, there are articles and comments making the case that sleeping with a woman helps to cement her feelings and makes it easier to reconnect later for further adventures, in line with the site's overall philosophy of "moving fast". I'm not sure why that would be, but I take it on faith, since everything else I read here seems to work well also. Therefore, having made the preparations I mentioned in the report:



...I had hoped to have an opportunity to invite her back, especially since when we strolled that one section of the Boulevard Ring, we walked right past where I was staying, and (there being two possible directions to circle the ring) when I had asked her after dinner which way she wanted to go, she had pointed in that direction, the same way that I had indicated at the beginning of the evening when she had asked me about my accommodation.

In addition, perhaps a day or two before meeting this girl, I had read a post by, I believe, @Will_V, stating that a common mistake he sees in beginners is interacting with a woman without a clearly-defined goal. (I should have bookmarked it, infuriatingly I can't resurface it now in search results.) He then suggests that a good goal is to invite a woman back to one's place. So I went out resolved to invite the next girl I met back to where I was staying. However, as is mentioned in the report:

...I sensed no opportunity to do so.

@Marty whenever I read your reports I feel like I'm transported into some kind of Doctor Zhivago movie, I can almost hear the violins and the tooting horn of the trans-Siberian railway in the background. You've got a very eloquent writing style!

Saying that most guys don't have a goal when talking to women sounds like something I would say.

In your report, you actually had plenty of opportunities to invite her home. First of all, before the date, you want to come up with some plausible contexts for inviting her home, doesn't need to be anything extraordinary. Could be inviting her to have a drink with you, see a movie, show her some artwork, books, writing you've done, music you've made, or really anything (when a woman is attracted she doesn't need a huge rationale to agree to spend more time with you).

Then, you seed the pull, if you can, sometime in the middle of the date. Let's say you've got a really nice collection of books, and during the date you tell her you love books, and you say something like "I've got a really wonderful collection of classic books at my place, you should come and see them sometime" smile and pause a moment, then just continue with the conversation.

And then, let's say you're walking around after dinner, you can say "hey my place is just over there, I'd like to show you that book collection I mentioned earlier" "ok!" and voila you've just brought a woman home, where things can get a lot more intimate.

If you forget to seed the pull or didn't find an opportunity to do so, you can just invite her anyway. Again if a woman is attracted she's usually waiting for you to make the invitation so she can say 'yes!'. She doesn't care why, she just wants to be with you.

If you're at a hotel, you can still invite her for a drink/bite or a movie or whatever, don't be embarrassed. When I'm at a hotel I usually buy a nice bottle of wine and some fancy chocolate, which I also happen to like.

Best of luck!

 

[Jan]

@Marty Ok, I get you now. It seems to me that you wanted to invite her to your hotel but you didn't see the opportunity to do so or you didn't know how.

As to the 'how', just follow Will's advice:
a) soft-close with plausible deniability (wine, movies, art, anything chill or romantic works)
b) hard close, the actual invite

If you believe that you can do it (done it in the past), technically speaking it's probably all what you need. It's that simple. Unfortunately, sometimes our brains decline the simple solution because we don't believe that something as simple can actually work. But it does!

On top of the the 'how' I sense that you may struggle with one extra thing.

Look, as Wayne Gretzky said: "Every shot not taken, is shot missed.". How does this relate to your situation?

Well, at some point of your date you must have realized (and so did she) that you either continue the evening together or you separate and that's it (due to you being there temporarily). You see, having this knowledge, being at this point of the daate IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER if you KNOW how to invite her in (remember my pull with the Alpha Female? I also didn't know how to pull her
It doesn't matter if you see an opportunity (signals) or not. This is not specifically related to seduction, it's just the nature of doing things. Not inviting her when things are about to finish either way, it's like playing a hockey game, it's last minute of the game, but you don't see the opportunity or you think you don' know how to take a shot, so you don't take a shot at all!
Even if 90% of your invitations fail because you don't have the skill to either read the signals perfectly or you don't know how, it's always this 10% which will succeed. And if you don't take a shot, you miss an opportunity to gain experience with inviting chicks home. No experience, no progress. People like to talk about the approach anxiety. Approach anxiety is not the only anxiety related to game. There are different types of anxieties which exist further down the seduction line. Anxiety to make first physical contact, anxiety to kiss her, anxiety to INVITE HER, anxiety to escalate to sex, etc. You get my point.

I guess your explanation of not inviting her home due to not seeing the opportunity is not really that, it's just a backwards rationalization of the fear you had at time.

You mentioned 'moving fast'. What I've just written is actually related to moving fast. How? The only way to know how fast you can go is to go too fast first

 

[Marty]

This was your escalation window.

Thanks for contributing to the thread and commenting on my report, Gameboy, good of you to show solidarity.

I'm loath to contradict you directly, but I don't think so. This discussion had taken place back in the early afternoon on the park bench at the memorial site. I subsequently invited her to "my" part of town, i.e., a restaurant near my hotel. The discussion about where she lived had been merely rapport-building, as we first got to know each other.

It was missing from my initial report, so you couldn't have known, but at the time, this is the point when I sensed an escalation window:

when I had asked her after dinner which way she wanted to go, she had pointed in that direction, the same way that I had indicated at the beginning of the evening when she had asked me about my accommodation.

However, I was unable to find a way to act upon it at the time, because I sensed that she had not reached "buying temperature" (Will has kindly made several suggestions since then about how to tackle that issue).

 

[Marty]

@Marty whenever I read your reports I feel like I'm transported into some kind of Doctor Zhivago movie, I can almost hear the violins and the tooting horn of the trans-Siberian railway in the background. You've got a very eloquent writing style!

Heh I can't switch it off I'm just describing events the way I perceive them; although if I perceived them otherwise, perhaps it would be more conducive to seduction, I don't know. Thanks for your kind comment.

Saying that most guys don't have a goal when talking to women sounds like something I would say.

Yes, it may have been in one of your articles rather than on the forum, I can't remember now, but it did inspire me to take action and move matters forward more assertively.

First of all, before the date, you want to come up with some plausible contexts for inviting her home, doesn't need to be anything extraordinary. Could be inviting her to have a drink with you, see a movie, show her some artwork, books, writing you've done, music you've made, or really anything (when a woman is attracted she doesn't need a huge rationale to agree to spend more time with you).

Good point, I'm a bit out of practice, or perhaps I was unnecessarily thrown off by the context of being at a hotel rather than my own apartment. I in fact remember doing just this on more than one occasion in the past.

If you're at a hotel, you can still invite her for a drink/bite or a movie or whatever, don't be embarrassed. When I'm at a hotel I usually buy a nice bottle of wine and some fancy chocolate, which I also happen to like.

Yeah, I was really ill-prepared mentally. My focus was more on doing all the things I had wanted to do in Moscow in the few days I had there, and the daytime approach was rather incidental, but I'm so happy I did it. I remember years ago hearing that female YouTube coach Kezia Noble recommend always having a chilled bottle of white wine at home just in case. This hotel had the best mini-bar I had ever seen, and it was unusually affordable, plus round-the-clock room service, so we would have been just fine even if I hadn't had time to go out and get wine and chocolates in advance. I simply wasn't in the right mental frame to realize I could do all these things with ease.

And thanks for saying "don't be embarrassed"—that's really encouraging, Will.

If you forget to seed the pull or didn't find an opportunity to do so, you can just invite her anyway. Again if a woman is attracted she's usually waiting for you to make the invitation so she can say 'yes!'. She doesn't care why, she just wants to be with you.

Exactly. She has since told me explicitly that she enjoys spending time with me and talking with me, so there's a good chance that this would have been possible too despite the "early morning" mini-objection.

 

[Will_V]

Yes, it may have been in one of your articles rather than on the forum, I can't remember now, but it did inspire me to take action and move matters forward more assertively.

Glad I was of help, though I've never written articles for the site, so unless you saw one of my posts here credit goes to the GirlsChase writing team.

Good point, I'm a bit out of practice, or perhaps I was unnecessarily thrown off by the context of being at a hotel rather than my own apartment. I in fact remember doing just this on more than one occasion in the past.

Yeah, I was really ill-prepared mentally. My focus was more on doing all the things I had wanted to do in Moscow in the few days I had there, and the daytime approach was rather incidental, but I'm so happy I did it. I remember years ago hearing that female YouTube coach Kezia Noble recommend always having a chilled bottle of white wine at home just in case. This hotel had the best mini-bar I had ever seen, and it was unusually affordable, plus round-the-clock room service, so we would have been just fine even if I hadn't had time to go out and get wine and chocolates in advance. I simply wasn't in the right mental frame to realize I could do all these things with ease.

And thanks for saying "don't be embarrassed"—that's really encouraging, Will.

It can throw you off if your spot is a hotel or some other temporary place. That's why it's a good idea to prepare the place beforehand, even in small ways, with having a girl over in mind. It makes your mind go 'ok it's happening here!'.

Things like:

- Tidying it up
- Making it smell nice, air freshener is good
- Preparing the bathroom for a visitor
- Putting condoms somewhere handy
- Having some food and drink ready
- Putting your stuff around and making it feel lived-in

She knows when it's a hotel room, she just doesn't want to feel like you just landed there, threw your bags in a closet and went 'ok let's go find some girls'. She wants to walk in and feel something of your presence residing there.

Exactly. She has since told me explicitly that she enjoys spending time with me and talking with me, so there's a good chance that this would have been possible too despite the "early morning" mini-objection.

Usually when women give you verbal encouragement, you already missed a boatload of windows! So don't be afraid to put something out there as a suggestion and see how she responds.

 

[Marty]

She knows when it's a hotel room, she just doesn't want to feel like you just landed there, threw your bags in a closet and went 'ok let's go find some girls'. She wants to walk in and feel something of your presence residing there.

Thanks. I guess I sensed all that and had the place in excellent shape in advance; but I didn’t know how to ask her to come there, which is why your comments about “seeding the pull” and “don’t be embarrassed” are so useful for the future.

Usually when women give you verbal encouragement, you already missed a boatload of windows! So don't be afraid to put something out there as a suggestion and see how she responds.

Possibly true in this case. I find it hard to know what women actually want a lot of the time, because they tend to be rather unspecific.

Back when I started out on this site and forum in 2013, I remember reading somewhere here that you shouldn’t try to read women’s intentions, because it is usually not possible, therefore you should just keep moving matters forward until you encounter an obstacle. Then find a way to bypass or circumvent it. 11 years later, that still seems to be the best advice.

 

[Marty]

Ok, I get you now. It seems to me that you wanted to invite her to your hotel but you didn't see the opportunity to do so or you didn't know how.

As to the 'how', just follow Will's advice:
a) soft-close with plausible deniability (wine, movies, art, anything chill or romantic works)
b) hard close, the actual invite

If you believe that you can do it (done it in the past), technically speaking it's probably all what you need. It's that simple.

Thanks for coming back to me a second time, @Jan , I do appreciate it, and I realize that I am slow to acknowledge it and respond. I apologize for that. It has been a very busy summer.

Yes indeed, the nice thing about this is that having made this mistake once, and tied in my mind to a memorable situation, easy to recall, I'm more likely to recognize the situation next time and know what to do. Thanks for helping to imprint it for me.

Well, at some point of your date you must have realized (and so did she) that you either continue the evening together or you separate and that's it (due to you being there temporarily).

Yes. That was true. As may be clear from the write-up, I have enough experience to retain the ability to think clearly while on a date.

And if you don't take a shot, you miss an opportunity to gain experience with inviting chicks home. No experience, no progress. People like to talk about the approach anxiety. Approach anxiety is not the only anxiety related to game. There are different types of anxieties which exist further down the seduction line. Anxiety to make first physical contact, anxiety to kiss her, anxiety to INVITE HER, anxiety to escalate to sex, etc.

I like the way you put this. It's very intelligent. You capitalized the one I missed in this particular instance, but if I had to take a good, honest look at past interactions, this is actually probably the most difficult for me. That and knowing what to talk about upon first approach, when there is little context.

In other words, putting my desires into words is what I struggle with, at least when face-to-face with the object of them. First physical contact, first kiss, etc., doesn't require any verbal explanation and I can rely on instinct (unfortunately sometimes resulting in caveman-like situations, hilariously)!

But there's more to it than just that. In your first response, you understandably made the following comment:

If a romantic stroll and dinner is what you wanted, then I guess you got what you wanted.

Not exactly.

It's difficult to put into words, but allow me to try to explain. It depends on the sort of desire that a woman evokes in me. If it's love, I'll feel myself drawn primarily to her face, and my overwhelming urge will be to kiss her. If, however, love isn't really there, then it's sexual desire (by process of elimination: else I wouldn't have asked her on the date), and then the locus of attraction will be the body (note the way I described the girl in this FR), and just kissing her seems "not enough". Those are the situations where I'd like to proceed to intimacy if it's mutually desired (following the guidelines @Will_V gave me and you echoed above).

(Throughout, as must be obvious, I am talking about passionate and not companionate love. The sort of love that arises between spouses after years of growing affection and going through so much together is out of scope for this post. I'm talking about the "don't feel real hungry right now", butterflies-in-the-abdomen type of love.)

This one was definitely not up to the "love" standard. (If it had been, I would have considered myself lucky to have a date and a kiss.) Therefore it would have been good to push it as far as it would go, and all your advice is appreciated and taken onboard for the future.

Actually very few of my FRs have been of the "love" variety, with the face/mouth locus. I just checked which: 01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10. That's all.

So, to return to your earlier point, @Jan , about different stages of anxiety, with the "body/sex" girls I don't know how to express myself verbally when I want something, but can make first physical contact, first kiss, and (if I actually get to point of isolation) escalate physically easily enough; while with the "face/love" girls I don't really struggle with expressing what I want, since the desire is so much more burning and genuine; although I am still often at a loss for words upon first approach.

 

[Marty]

I rely heavily on sexual framing to accomplish this, from early on in the interaction, texts leading to the date, and midway through the date.

Thank you for responding so helpfully to my field report, @Stark . What exactly do you mean by this? Is the following an illustration of "sexual framing"?:

Texting her an innocuous, borderline indecent yet classy question of "What have you picked out to wear for this evening" can set the tone quite effectively.

I like that a lot. To extend it to the "midway through the date" phase, as you wrote above, would you tell her how pretty she looked in what she picked out, and observe how it matched her eyeshadow and purse nicely or something?

This is relatively easy for me

That's good to hear. I think what troubles me is that when I ask a woman for sex, it always seems as if she's being asked to make some colossal sacrifice purely to gratify me. That shouldn't really be the case, because as has been discussed on the site and elsewhere on this forum, a lot of tension and awkwardness between a man and a woman is dissolved once the "sex barrier" is broken—far from being about mere titillation, then, it is about strengthening the bond between them. In addition, the physical gratification should be mutual, if the man knows what he's doing. (And I don't suck in bed: ChorusGirl was regularly wetting the sheets, so much so that when I stayed with her at her dad's place for a few nights early in our relationship, we had to keep washing them, leading to more than one embarrassing encounter I had with her stepmom in the laundry room. Unfortunately, I guess there's no way for a woman to be able to tell whether I can satisfy her before it happens.)

I have a suspicion you dialed back on the sexual framing considering she's in her 30's.

I can't tell whether you mean 30s as opposed to 40s, or 30s as opposed to 20s. Also I'm not sure I understand the relevance of age bracket to the request for sexual access. I'm 48, for what it's worth.

I think you did quite well, to be honest during the approach except for the parts where you asked her permission. I would add seductive eye contact and touching/caressing her during the high points of the interaction.

Thank you very much. Maybe I should have sat on the same side of the table, next to her, at dinner, to facilitate caressing. It's always difficult to know what a woman prefers until you know her better.

What did you mean by "asking permission"?

Look up Teevster's posts on sexual gambits and sexual framing. I bring up my version of this somewhere midway through the date looking at her in a deadpan manner.

Thank you, I will take a look at that. I have immense respect for all of the senior leaders on this forum, but have found Alek's writing a little bit difficult to relate to as we seem to have very different characters.

This perfectly sets the frame where you can say "I would love to show you the view from my balcony"/"I would like us to enjoy a bit of private time together" (then proceed to take her to the hotel without verbalizing it).

I like that very much. Thank you.

All the while during this conversation, you would project non-neediness, sexual experience, and a taste for dirty/kinky sex.

I don't have a taste for it. Would you suggest lying? I prefer to be more sincere.

 

[Stark]

Thank you for responding so helpfully to my field report, @Stark . What exactly do you mean by this? Is the following an illustration of "sexual framing"?:

"Texting her an innocuous, borderline indecent yet classy question of "What have you picked out to wear for this evening" can set the tone quite effectively."

Generalizing a bit - But men usually WANT sex to happen fast. Women ENJOY(and crave) good sex more than men but would rather take their time (because of their indecisive nature), and try to disqualify the man while getting certain things they value - attention, validation, etc. ASD plays a huge role in her delaying or resisting sex. I'm sure you know this already, but I am just reiterating to explain sexual framing.


When two people interact, the interaction has an implicit meaning, usually set by the one with the dominant frame. In a dating context, women are used to setting the frame.

Here is the loophole - Women usually absorb the frame that the man confidently presents to her at the beginning of the interaction.

Most men remain passive at this stage and women take the reigns. Game over.

Sexual frame :
You present yourself as a man who has the experience and prowess(for lack of a better word) to give her that mindblowing sexual experience in a non-judgmental way. She pushes for attention/money/societally conditioned dates first, you push for sex and passion first. And early on.

When the sexual frame is set, your dates will automatically be charged with sexual tension and compliance. She will happily agree to your isolation proposal.

Here is the major benefit and why I do it in the first place- No LMR once she's back at your place or hotel.

Sexual frame solidifies the connection and keeps the flames of passion alive even if you choose to pursue an ongoing relationship with her.

I like that a lot. To extend it to the "midway through the date" phase, as you wrote above, would you tell her how pretty she looked in what she picked out, and observe how it matched her eyeshadow and purse nicely or something?

Exactly - I do that almost as a state breaker within 5-10 minutes into the date - she might be talking about something random. I will say "You look great in this dress" glancing her body up and down and making eye contact catching her blush. Similar to your approach in WillowyCutie FR

I like to plant the seeds of sexual frame early on in the approach - I think you've already mastered this while delivering the opener(glancing at her body and locking eyes). I like the hand clasp in your FR.

I go into a deep sexual state as soon as I see she's attracted. While talking, I make it clear in no uncertain terms that I fancy exploring her beautiful body(through EC). I would subtly lick my lips. This almost comes naturally being in a sexual state- Hector has a video on this if you want to see how it's done.

a lot of tension and awkwardness between a man and a woman is dissolved once the "sex barrier" is broken

Word.

Most seducers rely heavily on physical advances(kino) to break the sex barrier but as Teevster says this is very ineffective as it raises her ASD causing further resistance.

Instead, we use carefully crafted verbals delivered in a tone that expresses that you're open-minded and non-judgemental.

This is the technical detail- You pace the girl by entering the conversation she's having in her head. Then break the sequence creating cognitive dissonance and making her follow your conclusion.

Sounds quite complicated but very easy to do.

Example below (again used a state-breaker some 30 minutes into the first date)


Marty: I hate the experience of rushing to the bedroom. Actually, I would want you to be comfortable before we get into anything sexual.

Her: Yeah. I appreciate that.

Marty: Connection & chemistry is important to me. I have noticed that you have the most amazing sexual experience when you can trust someone and let go, usually in a spontaneous, organic way.

Her: I can relate to that.

Fractionate to other topics.

This is a simple yet immensely powerful technique. This opens up more sex talk and opportunities for you to demonstrate these values that melt her ASD and open her mentally and physically for you.

Makes the isolation proposal a natural conclusion rather than a painful transition.

What did you mean by "asking permission"?

I scanned the report again - the parts where you asked her where she preferred to sit (during insta-date) and while walking with her on the street. Not a big issue - can come across as classy when considering your sauve personality and verbals

but have found Alek's writing a little bit difficult to relate to as we seem to have very different characters.

Try to extract the sexual framing and sexual prizing techniques while ignoring the details. They're gold and can be adapted to your personality. Teevster mostly does nightgame but this is quite applicable to daygame.

It isn't necessary to go into a deep conversation with gambits as Teevster does - if that doesn't suit you. A few sentences back and forth would do the job.

I don't have a taste for it. Would you suggest lying? I prefer to be more sincere.

You don't have to be into hardcore BDSM or filthy sex like I am, if that's not your thing. I don't recommend lying but using what's already part of your sexual preferences.

You have your fetishes or preferences - something that's not too common. It can be as simple as watching(and admiring) a woman undress in front of you. Or wanting her to look into your eyes while having sex(missionary). Indicate these when sex talk is on.

when I ask a woman for sex, it always seems as if she's being asked to make some colossal sacrifice purely to gratify me.

Please read Nancy Friday's "Forbidden Flowers" immediately. Then set up a few dates. Report back.

 

[Jan]

Hi @Marty, honestly speaking I suspect that making this distinction between love/kiss and body/sex types of girls is counterproductive to you. Having these two different standards means that you also have a different course of action for each group. This introduces unneccesary complexity in your mind. Lots of confusing, and double the sticking points to fix.

Regardless of whether you categorize her A or B in your mind, she is a woman. And generally speaking each woman requires more or less the same as every other woman.

I know what you are talking about because I did something similar. In my case, if I met a girl who was a good girlfriend candidate (probably love/kiss type of girl) I would be more cautious with her. I would be in fear of losing her. And of course going this direction, I would have usually lost her. I realized that being too cautious I actually robbed her of excitement of being an object of passionate, aggresive, fast pursuit. I gave it to other girls because I wasn't afraid, and they loved it. But I didn't give it to the girls I was afraid to lose, so even though I considered them 'better' I actually gave them less. When I seduced a regular girl, things would be going fairly smoothly because I sticked to what I knew and what works. With the love/kiss type of girl I would have feel lost and confused, not because there was something necessarily new or challanging. It was simply because consiously dropped what I knew and tried to make up completely new set of actions. Big mistake on my side. If I understood you correctly, it's opposite in your case. You find it easier to deal with love/kiss types of girls and hard with other group. Even though we may have it opposite, it seems to me it's the same problem.

I don't fully comprehend how you make this distinction between love/kiss and body/sex types. But I would suggest you try to drop it and try to treat every girl the same way. You will have just one process. This will be easier for you to overcome sticking points, because there will be just one process. And it will be also easier for you to focus on real differences between individual girls. And these differences (which make up for need for an individual treatment) are REAL while your inner distinction is IMAGINARY.