FR Tricked into buying a drink - but could she have been attracted?

[Chase]

@Beam,

Happens to the best of us.

The descent into hell of the worst pickup night of my life began with me buying a drink for a girl who asked me for it. First time after years of picking up I'd ever bought a girl a drink at her request and after the experience it precipitated I have never and will not ever do it again. (I don't see an issue with buying drinks if it's what you want and you propose it. But if the girl is leading... well, nothing good is going to come of that)

This was a good educational experience for you on dealing with these kinds of girls / navigating these kinds of situations in clubs.

I'll break down a bit...

First, pay attention to this:

she suggested getting a drink

when he brought them out I took out my card but she stayed put. I gave her a look and then said with a smile "Ok, I'll get this round, next round is on you"

her friends then arrived and she suggested going upstairs

they said they were getting up to dance

she nodded but went back to her friends

Every thing so far is her leading, you following, or else her just ignoring your frame:

• She asks for a drink and you comply
• She nonverbally implies she won't pay, and you comply by paying for her drink
• She says she's going with her friends to dance rather than stay with you
• You find her later and tell her you want your drink and she brushes it off

She is in control here, and everything is happening on her terms.

So this should be no surprise:

when it came she refused to pay. "I'm not paying - I paid for mine (pointed to hers that she had gotten previously" so you can pay for yours"

The reaction here was because you knew what you were walking into... but she was hot, you figured you'd take a chance, see if maybe your instincts were wrong, maybe she there might really be something there:

I was fuming and didn't really know how to handle the situation. I didn't want to come across as butthurt but I told her "that's not cool, you said you were getting the next round". She then said "I don't buy guys drinks, sorry". "I don't usually buy girls drinks", to which she responded sarcastically "oh that was sooo nice of you then"

You can't argue logic with women or try to hold them to things they agreed to earlier.

A man's word is his honor. A woman's word is just whatever she's saying in the moment and she can say the opposite a moment later.

"Changing one's mind is a woman's prerogative," goes the saying.

If you found yourself in this situation, where she's saying, "I'm not paying," the best thing you can do there is shrug, concede victory to her, and leave: "Well, I guess you win. Have a good night."

A graceful concession is better than a futile fight to try to hold onto something.

She's a lot more likely to be at least a little intrigued by a man who concedes she bested him than she will the typical guy she hooks in then gets chasing -- because that latter guy she sees a lot.

I should have moved on, but to hell with it, I wanted to see how far I could go with this. Especially since she wasn't ignoring me and seemed to still be complying despite the drink. And she seemed emotionally reactive to me which was good - I know that rudeness is better than apathy and means you can still sleep with her.

She's sort of floating around with you a bit, in a "Sure, whatever, we can go over here" way. So there is a minimum of compliance there.

You will see this with girls very comfortable in club environments with men they've gotten to invest in them whom they do not find completely disagreeable.

It doesn't mean she's interested though. It's just her putting in the bare minimum investment to keep a guy in her orbit.

Important to recognize the difference between significant compliance vs. "orbiter/prospective orbiter upkeep."

(I guess it's somewhat complimentary that she considered you worthwhile enough to keep around as an orbiter that she put a little investment in, compared to, say, the guys she dismissed. Still not really where you want to be though)

I then said "Alright, you owe me a dance then". She agreed - we started dancing, it faltered.

Notice how you're framing it:

She is the prize.

A dance with her is the reward you get for buying her a drink.

Even Stevens now, in her mind -- after all, you framed it that way.

I tried keeping things lighthearted - saying "I bet you're not used to guys being this persistent are you?" with a smile. To which she responded "actually I am"

This is really not showing an understanding of her world

Girls have guys who buy them drinks then leverage that to talk to/dance with them all the time.

Especially girls who are in the habit of asking men to buy them drinks.

Most guys feel like they have a claim over a woman once they've purchased something for her.

It is very normal behavior for men to get possessive & chasey toward women they've bought drinks for.

This is another reason why it's ill advised unless you know what you're doing with it (and are doing it of your own accord, unprompted by her).

Tried setting a frame where I was different from other guys by calling her out on the whole drink situation - "so it's pretty easy for you to get guys to buy you drinks isn't it? . "Yeah, I can pretty much get drinks whenever I want". "And they buy you drinks expecting something in return don't they. How lame"

Didn't she just "owe you a dance", then pay up and give you the dance she owed you though?

Gotta be aware of this stuff.

I should note that at this point I still felt like the biggest sucker and that I had lost almost all power in this situation - I was saying the words to reset the frame but already felt like it was a lost cause. Obviously an unproductive frame to have and probably seeped into what happened next.

Yes. You weren't consciously aware of the full dynamic here, but your subconscious knew.

The right call here as soon as you realize it is to go, "Whoops. Well, she wins," then just ditch her as a drink hound and go find some girl who's actually into you. Girls who are into you aren't trying to pump you for drinks.

Her friend then came and told me "She has a boyfriend".

Well fuck.

I could have kept going just to see what was happen but feel I had already pushed it far enough with this set and it was going to go nowhere and I was better off talking to other girls. I went to her and said "so you have a boyfriend". She said "Yeah"

92% chance that's total bullshit

The friend just knew you were getting possessive and wanted to help her out.

When she heard the friend told you that it was an easy "Oh yes. Yes, that's right. You can go now."

I then said "Well right, could have told me that before but I'm going to go now. Also, there's always room for improvement". At this she got a bit wide eyed, I don't know if it was relief or what that I was leaving but she said "Agreed" and nodded wildly. I then left.

Part of me wonders what would have happened if I had just kissed her and not hesitated. Curious about her response to my comment on "there's always room for improvement" at the end - I have a feeling with better game I could have pulled her based on that. Would be curious to hear others thoughts about this, because I'm still conflicted as to whether she saw me as a free meal ticket from the get go or was actually attracted. Or whether she was simply complying with my dance and drink requests because she maybe saw me as a threat and didn't know if I would flip out or not if she refused so played it safe. Obviously hard to tell by just reading this but I've tried to remember as many details as possible.

Well... I will never say never to pulling off any kind of pick up or turnaround.

It is true, you can turn around girls in all kinds of situations, and annoyance is better than apathy.

But if she's already one-upped you once the odds aren't good you'll be able to pick her up in a combative pickup.

That is especially true if she is stacking up frame battle wins against you and gaining compliance from you and you are framing her as the prize.

This is why clubs are the best training grounds for dealing with BS from manipulative people. You will run into people like this there, who are fairly smooth, who seem to have value, and who are playing games to feel more powerful by commanding your attention and validation and winning frame battles over you.

It sucks when you lose these battles. It can feel humiliating and deflating.

But you get the lesson from it and next time don't fall for the same thing.

If you're doing more club game and running into girls like this, you might want to check out the GC articles on them:

Girl Types: Club Queens

Club Queens is the post we’ve chosen to launch a new series on the Girls Chase blog, entitled Girl Types. Club Queens have always been a bit of a favorite type of woman of mine in particular, so I figured what better girl type to start us out on than them! Ever notice how in most nightclubs...

www.girlschase.com

Tactics Tuesdays: Pick Up and Emotional Validation

A reader writes in, on the topic of emotional validation: “Hey there, been reading the site lately and I've noticed that one thing I haven't seen so far is a post about validation. Maybe you call it something different but I was talking to a female friend of mine and she brought something up...

www.girlschase.com

8 Signs She’s an Attention Whore (And Not Really Into You)

If a girl is an attention whore, it essentially means that you’re chasing her. Yet, chances are it’s not entirely your fault. She is probably making you chase her. In this man’s humble opinion, the attention whore is one of the most socially adaptable and skillful people you will ever encounter...

www.girlschase.com

Flirt Games: Cockteases, Attention Whores, and FRAs

Girls play the role of cocktease or attention whore (or worse) because these roles can be fun. But what’s the psychology behind this kind of “fun”? There are short term and long term impacts on the fruits of our actions in the mating game. In the short term, we can create a really fun seduction...

www.girlschase.com

Girls Who Seek Attention, Part I: What Are "Attention Seekers"?

Women love to get attention from men. Why girls become attention seekers, and how to interpret what they want, is key to getting somewhere with them. Hey, guys. I hope you are ready for a theoretical post regarding female psychology. Contents 1. The Attention Seeker Do Girls Love Sex? Women and...

www.girlschase.com

Girls Who Seek Attention, Part II: How to Pick Them Up

Just because she’s a flighty, flirty attention seeker doesn’t mean she can’t be gotten. You just need to switch up your approach to get her a bit. Welcome back, guys. This is a follow up to last week’s post where we covered the psychology and the underlying factors of female attention-seeking...

www.girlschase.com

Also, keep in mind... if you're out somewhere and you lose some frame battle and it shakes you for a loop, the best thing to do is accept the loss and drop it. It's a bit more satisfying if you can tell the person, "All right; you win," then smile and leave, because then you're being the bigger man, and the other person looks petty pulling these silly petty schemes over you (which... she is being petty, and these schemes are dumb and petty, and it does make her look petty and stupid if she gets called out on it in a cool way). Can be cathartic. Even if you can't say it to the individual, say it to yourself: "Whoops. Well all right. Point to her. She wins. Moving on..." Then move on.

If it shakes you too much and you can't bounce back in-venue, change venues to somewhere else. You can always come back later.

Early on in my seduction career I used to routinely run into situations where I'd lose frame battles in clubs and feel like a putz.

Plenty of times I left to go to some other venue, then sometimes I returned to the venue I'd 'lost' in earlier just to try to conquer it. Some of the time I'd end up kissing a girl or taking a number or picking a girl up. The first few times I returned to venues I lost in I'd look around a bit for whomever I'd lost to earlier and usually didn't even see that person there. It was like going into a completely fresh venue and starting over again.

Anyway... the more you get out-foxed like this, the more you learn to recognize the patterns, and not get out-foxed next time.

And the next time you're at a bar and a girl asks if you want drinks, you just say, "I'm just having soda water," and let her order her own drink.

Or if it happens you both get drinks, at her proposal, and you take out your money but she doesn't take out hers, well... pay in cash that way you can hand the barkeep the exact amount: "Here's $8 for mine."

If she doesn't want to pay that's between her and the barkeep

Chase

 

[DarkKnight]

@Chase

Hey man I actually have a question about the following : "Important to recognize the difference between significant compliance vs. "orbiter/prospective orbiter upkeep."

I do discern between significant compliance and orbitor upkeep, it's the give a little to get a lot principle you mentioned before. However there was one chick who confused me (although I am pretty sure she was an attention seeker, I learned later on that she was a not so good looking girl who had multiple surgeries and became very pretty, so her software needs updating).

This chick opened me with an innocuous question and I took the bait, I couldnt escalate there and then but she was very enthousiastic-like for a very beautiful girl... too enthousiastic (something felt off to me). Next time I saw her she was alone, but she didn't quite hook and left the convo in a bored way and I just let it go. She noticed I ignored her and started baiting me, pretty much ordinary attention seeker routine. She also got very reactive and angry if I didn't talk to her (she could have gotten off her ass and talked with me if she really wanted to), but I knew I was dealing with a AS. At one point I very directly asked her if she had a boyfriend (I was getting irked by the wishy washyness and her persistence (again an attention seeker trait) and wanted to screen her, because 4 weeks had already passed since I inititally talked to her) and she lied "yes". She became very uncomfortable around me, I continued talking to other girls/ignored her and then she started hounding me again. I didn't trust her at that point. Then lockdown became worse and I havent seen her to this day.

-----------------------------------------------------
Anyway my true question is this : The girl kept showing compliance on her own initiative, I can't remember the details for the life of me, but it was this very forced meaningless compliance + submissive auto gestures. I remember how odd I kept finding those gestures of her, gestures I didn't ask for and which also didn't build connection or anything like that. It felt so superficial (hence odd) . In hindsight I think that is another form of carrot before the cart (didn't work, since I didn't trust her).. but what is your take on that? It was so odd seeing a "9" behave that way, as if I am a teacher and she is a little schoolgirl. This still intrigues me. I am pretty sure she did see me as an authority, but I have no formal role (this was in the gym). She just clung onto me. (and why the hell did she cling onto me? I am not the only guy and there are lots of needy chumps she can innocuously open. ) Interacting with her felt like one big bait, since I didn't feel any added value at all.

----------

Another chick hovered around me today, I opened, her energy was low key, but she was very receptive.. that is true interest. You can sense it off the vibe.

 

[Chase]

@DarkKnight,

Girls who've had plastic surgery tend to have weird self-esteem / self-image issues, and the heavier the surgery, the heavier the issue.

You can observe things like... girls with fake tits who love to lift their shirts up and show their fake tits off... jam them into guys they're talking to... and various behaviors women with naturally big boobs just don't really engage in...

Girls with a lot of plastic surgery engaging in more exhibitionism... public sex... group sex... they're more likely to be strippers, porn actresses, escorts.

They also tend to be attention whores, and get off on both attracting and dismissing men who would formerly have been out of their leagues.

Even as they're doing that, they tend to still have self-esteem issues and insecurities that crop up if men aren't responding to them how they want. Also in my experience these girls tend to look down on men who chase them more than women without surgery do... a woman men are chasing after for her natural beauty has always had that all her life, and what men are chasing is what she really is. A plastic surgery girl gets attention from men of a kind and to a degree she never got in the past, but she knows it's due to this fake stuff she's had done. There's usually a certain bitterness that these men didn't want her for her, but now they want her now that she's gone under the knife or had fake parts added.

But then they also get confused if men who were chasing them don't act completely chasey... because again, these are typically all men who would've ignored them before.

So you will often see a lot more indecisiveness with them about whether to slot you as an orbiter or a potential lover (or boyfriend).

The naturally good-looking girl quickly slots a guy away, and unless he does something radical to change his position or shows some big side of himself she hadn't seen, there he will stay.

But the more enhanced a girl is, the more she is dealing with guys who'd previously have been out of her league. If they behave like orbiters, she will happily keep them as orbiters, and behave the way she's seen hot girls behave, but if they start behaving like manly men she can get confused and wonder if she should not be more compliant with them... after all, in the past, she would've killed for a guy like this. (meanwhile to the natural girl, once a guy's behaving like an orbiter, he's an orbiter)

As for the forced gestures, usually when you see this with girls who've heavily upgraded themselves it's some combination of her old way of dealing with men plus her attempts to emulate hot girls and adapt to the stepped up attention men give her now. A lot of that won't gel, so she'll behave in incongruous ways that seem off / hard to get a bead on to you.

Chase

 

[DarkKnight]

@DarkKnight,

Girls with a lot of plastic surgery engaging in more exhibitionism... public sex... group sex...

Yep, I certainly sensed exhibitionist vibes from her. She simply had to be seen. I figured the anger she had when I didn't really engage her (except for a hi), was probably some sense of fear that she is "regressing to the old situation".

"They also tend to be attention whores, and get off on both attracting and dismissing men who would formerly have been out of their leagues." -> hahaha this is actually pretty funny. "You're passing up the hottest girls" Am I right?

"There's usually a certain bitterness that these men didn't want her for her, but now they want her now that she's gone under the knife or had fake parts added." -> Reminds me of a lot of pua's actually

"But then they also get confused if men who were chasing them don't act completely chasey... because again, these are typically all men who would've ignored them before." -> They are making the basic mistake LMS guys make... Only focussing on attraction not on connection/attainability/congruence.'

"As for the forced gestures, usually when you see this with girls who've heavily upgraded themselves it's some combination of her old way of dealing with men plus her attempts to emulate hot girls and adapt to the stepped up attention men give her now. A lot of that won't gel, so she'll behave in incongruous ways that seem off / hard to get a bead on to you." -> Spot on as always, she did try a couple of subtle frame grabs where she tried to act superior in other words "hot girl", but I had immediately put her in submission there just with tonality. She also engaged in aloofness games with the environment as in not acknowledging anyone, until she saw she would get no reactions that way. It was clear she is still trying to find her way.

About the not knowing if she will slot guys into lover/orbitor/boyfriend, I sense from her that she is not done playing the field yet with her new found power. She will probably try to min/max in her own way.

Thanks for the reply Chase this illuminated a lot and also confirmed some of the thoughts I had.

Much appreciated

@Beam sorry for hijacking bro, the issue just seemed tangent and I kept wondering

 

[Water]

@DarkKnight,

Girls who've had plastic surgery tend to have weird self-esteem / self-image issues, and the heavier the surgery, the heavier the issue.

You can observe things like... girls with fake tits who love to lift their shirts up and show their fake tits off... jam them into guys they're talking to... and various behaviors women with naturally big boobs just don't really engage in...

Girls with a lot of plastic surgery engaging in more exhibitionism... public sex... group sex... they're more likely to be strippers, porn actresses, escorts.

They also tend to be attention whores, and get off on both attracting and dismissing men who would formerly have been out of their leagues.

Even as they're doing that, they tend to still have self-esteem issues and insecurities that crop up if men aren't responding to them how they want. Also in my experience these girls tend to look down on men who chase them more than women without surgery do... a woman men are chasing after for her natural beauty has always had that all her life, and what men are chasing is what she really is. A plastic surgery girl gets attention from men of a kind and to a degree she never got in the past, but she knows it's due to this fake stuff she's had done. There's usually a certain bitterness that these men didn't want her for her, but now they want her now that she's gone under the knife or had fake parts added.

But then they also get confused if men who were chasing them don't act completely chasey... because again, these are typically all men who would've ignored them before.

So you will often see a lot more indecisiveness with them about whether to slot you as an orbiter or a potential lover (or boyfriend).

The naturally good-looking girl quickly slots a guy away, and unless he does something radical to change his position or shows some big side of himself she hadn't seen, there he will stay.

But the more enhanced a girl is, the more she is dealing with guys who'd previously have been out of her league. If they behave like orbiters, she will happily keep them as orbiters, and behave the way she's seen hot girls behave, but if they start behaving like manly men she can get confused and wonder if she should not be more compliant with them... after all, in the past, she would've killed for a guy like this. (meanwhile to the natural girl, once a guy's behaving like an orbiter, he's an orbiter)

As for the forced gestures, usually when you see this with girls who've heavily upgraded themselves it's some combination of her old way of dealing with men plus her attempts to emulate hot girls and adapt to the stepped up attention men give her now. A lot of that won't gel, so she'll behave in incongruous ways that seem off / hard to get a bead on to you.

Chase

Chase, do you check or reply to private messages? I'd like to speak to you about something. We met on that private board. You helped me a lot and I'm happy to see you continued a great forum. Since every private forum (that I'm aware of) is gone.

 

[DarkKnight]

I just read the article Chase posted about this very subject... https://www.girlschase.com/article/mindsets/when-girl-you-re-after-embarrasses-you

And I have a couple of things to add.

I believe that when a girl has humiliated you or given you a harsh reaction, if it is really her and her personality she will expect you to try and get even. She has done this before and used to certain patterns. But when you don't bite and don't react they get irked and become reverse invested in you (why didn't you react? Is she insignificant blah blah, basically you transcend her). Especially since Chase mentions this is ladder climbing behavior somewhere in the article, in other words they need, very much need reactions. A tactic I like with such behavior is not biting until they become increasingly invested and uncalibrated... and then you counter hard.

Also this is probably why Alek mentions opening a girl while walking next to her, this really gives a chick small room to do crazy stuff, because you are already walking-out-like. She needs to become uncalibrated to do nasty things (making it easy for you to frame her as weird).

 

[metalbird]

I think this is a case of a common phenomenon I struggle with every now and then. Essentially, as a guy, you get in the habit of dealing with other guys -- that is, operating by certain 'unwritten rules' (like: he who offers, pays; or "don't name the restaurant unless you're getting the check", etc). It's especially common with business-minded dudes and engineers, and extremely uncommon with artists and party boy types. A few points I'd like to mention:

• The rules exist to establish equality between strangers in the absence of major social cues, until perhaps a social dominance can be established. For example, if you're getting lunch with your boss, you can suggest a place despite the expectation that he/she will pay for both of you. This is because order is already well established. Alternatively, if you went up to Elon Musk in a bar and offered to buy him a drink, this is obviously a "power move" or an attempt at social climbing because you are suggesting that you are on the same level as him.
  
  With that being said, what frame are you going for with a particular female? Ambiguous, submissive, or dominant? You won't get laid with submission (expecting her to buy both drinks and looking sheepish if she doesn't) but don't assume that dominance is always the right choice. Many girls would be put off by that kind of behavior out of the gate (they'd rather split the bill and have the fun exercise of wrestling with you for dominance over time). See auto-rejection
  
  
• A great antidote to this is to show a little femininity. By which I mean, get on her level, be catlike and flirty. It's okay to be coy with a coy female. I try to notice the first time a female breaks the "unwritten rules" and from then on, I also abandon them. I guarantee they will be shocked and impressed if you can out-blonde or out-female them. This is one area where bisexual men kill it, in fact they tend to bat extremely high with coy women and almost zero with conservative/conscientious ones.
  
  
• Many girls will respond well to and respect following the unwritten rules. Vibe, appearance, and other nonverbal cues can give you a hint at her personality. If she's an engineer, MBA, seems like the tight-lace type, whatever, she's more likely to respond better to being treated The Same Way You Would Treat a Guy™, but if she's new-age, artsy, hippie, druggie, or just a wild-child with a rich dad, be prepared for full on cold war.

 

[Beam]

Hey @Chase , appreciate you taking the time for such a lengthy reply to this. I didn’t really consider conceding for so long because I am very much still in the mind of “you can do anything with good game” so honestly wanted to see if I could turn it around. And I’m still in this mindset (it’s a good one to have I guess), but I think I understand, based on what you and others have said, “good game” would have been not allowing these frame losses to build up in the first place to the point where you have to turn it around.

Very interesting point on the fact she was winning frame battles against me and gaining compliance from me. I didn’t consider that. Early on I thought her inviting me for a drink was because she saw me as the prize and so I felt like I was rewarding her. Oops. The later losses, yes I did subconsciously know they were wrong but persisted anyway.

That being said.. would you then say there are “good” and “bad” forms of her leading/you complying? For instance, as you said:

• She asks for a drink and you comply
• She nonverbally implies she won't pay, and you comply by paying for her drink
• She says she's going with her friends to dance rather than stay with you
• You find her later and tell her you want your drink and she brushes it off

Are all negative forms of compliance/her leading.

However, her asking you to join her and her friends upstairs and you agreeing is a good thing, no? It is her leading/you complying, but that wouldn’t be a negative would it? In this case, I agreed and said “sure”. Is there a better way to agree to following her lead in this instance while maintaining your value, say by saying “you seem like a cool enough girl, sure” or using a chase frame – “I think it’s sweet you find me so handsome you just want to spend more time with me”. I’m guessing you’d have to be careful with this one depending on the girl to not send her into autorejection but this is pure speculation.

Something similar happened yesterday during a DG session - approached a two set (later found out they were sisters) sitting down at a table and after a couple of minutes they asked me to join them at their table for a drink - I said "sure", went to buy myself a drink (didn't buy one for them of course) and sat down. Me complying, them leading. I wonder if there's a smoother way to do this. That interaction felt somewhat similar - initially it started off like we were equals but they started getting the upper hand - I was complying with them as they prodded and probed me about myself after telling me "it feels like we're getting a presentation, we're not seeing the real Beam" and got me to comply by giving them my instagram, which felt wrong.

(After they told me it felt I was putting on a presentation I started getting more real with them, talking about how I used to be shy and worked on getting better with talking to people and being upfront about how I'd only had one "relationship" that lasted a year (white lie, it was a fwb and lasted a few months). Felt I gave away a little too much and they were in full control. However, after this happened one was verbally telling the other she wanted to set me up with their other hot sister and the other one was unsure mainly due to my limited relationship history, they both went to the bathroom and after 15 minutes I thought they had bailed so left, later she told me on instagram they came back and I was gone - fairly sure they were having an argument over whether to set me up with the other sister or not, after they saw I bailed the answer was no since they unfollowed me on instagram, lol)

But noted. Next time I sense I’ve lost an initial frame battle – I’ll pay a bit more attention to my subconscious and if it tells me to, search for greener pastures

 

[Beam]

@Beam sorry for hijacking bro, the issue just seemed tangent and I kept wondering

All good my man!

 

[Tim Iron]

In a bar/night club, try to buy your drink before talking to ladies, if that's not possible and she proposes that you buy a drink for her just say that you have already had a drink and she could just go and get hers at the bar.

 

[Chase]

@Beam,

However, her asking you to join her and her friends upstairs and you agreeing is a good thing, no? It is her leading/you complying, but that wouldn’t be a negative would it? In this case, I agreed and said “sure”. Is there a better way to agree to following her lead in this instance while maintaining your value, say by saying “you seem like a cool enough girl, sure” or using a chase frame – “I think it’s sweet you find me so handsome you just want to spend more time with me”. I’m guessing you’d have to be careful with this one depending on the girl to not send her into autorejection but this is pure speculation.

Here's the thing with that... you can't frame her leading as her treating you as the prize unless you're acting like the prize.

That means putting up resistance, making her jump through hoops, etc.

I understand the sentiment. I tried it plenty up until I was intermediate or so with seduction. There was this thought in my head: "Well, it seems like this moves things forward, so it shouldn't matter if she's leading or I am, right? Let's just move it forward! It's petty if I reject a forward move just because she proposed it and not me!"

The thing you eventually figure out is that whoever is leading is leading things toward whatever his objective is.

Very occasionally the girl's objective will be sex. I have had successful pickups that ended in lays where I let the girl lead because I could see she was horny and trying to position me for the lay. You get a lot of signs that is happening when it does though... she behaves very chasey toward you, complimenting you, touching you, acting possessive toward you, not leaving you alone for long, ignoring her friends, her friends leave you and her alone because they know she's out for dick, etc. In that case it's okay to let her lead, and just make her work for it a bit (throw little tests her way, give her some hoops to jump through but don't make it too hard, etc.).

Most of the time when girls take charge it is because they think you could be a cool guy friend to have around. You need to break that frame by NOT complying.

So when you get, "Hey, we're heading upstairs. Why don't you come with us?" the correct answer is:

"Cheers. I'm going to be down here a bit longer, but I may join you up there in a bit."

Then let her go.

Go game some other girl(s), then 10-15 minutes you can find your way upstairs, chat up some other girl up there, then after a few approaches find your way over to the girls' table and check which way the wind's blowing over there.

I know it sucks feeling like you've met some girls, then having to let them go. You won't always find them again or get them back. But it's REALLY helpful for your overall odds with these girls who aren't chasing you for dick (yet).

Something similar happened yesterday during a DG session - approached a two set (later found out they were sisters) sitting down at a table and after a couple of minutes they asked me to join them at their table for a drink - I said "sure", went to buy myself a drink (didn't buy one for them of course) and sat down. Me complying, them leading. I wonder if there's a smoother way to do this.

You need to set the frame first. It doesn't have to be hardcore. But, you've got to play the game.

Here's an example:

YOU: blah blah blah​

​

HER: Why don't you sit with us?​

​

YOU: Well, I don't know... I charge by the hour.​

​

GIRLS: [laugh]​

​

YOU: Tell you what, the first 15 minutes is free. After that, the meter starts.​

​

HER: Okay!​

​

YOU: Lemme go get a drink.​

Now you've set a frame as the prize. You've also set a (possibly false) time constraint.

If you reach 15 minutes and the vibe's not great, you can tell the girls, "Well, looks like 15 minutes is up. If I stay any longer I'm going to need to keep charging you girls," and either they're going to let you leave and you'll know it wasn't going anywhere, or they're going to beg you to stay and you can set your 'terms' for what they need to do to get you to stick around.

That interaction felt somewhat similar - initially it started off like we were equals but they started getting the upper hand - I was complying with them as they prodded and probed me about myself after telling me "it feels like we're getting a presentation, we're not seeing the real Beam" and got me to comply by giving them my instagram, which felt wrong.

Sounds like you're running into congruence issues if you're getting that objection.

I'd look at what in your presentation is triggering "not the real you" objections and see if I could patch that up.

Re: Instagram, I'd stick to saving that for LTRs and friends only. For everyone else make it "Oh I quit. Yeah it was like marijuana... made me hazy and lazy, just staring at people's pictures being hypnotized like a bad weed trip. It's so much better without it."

If this girl ends up becoming your wife or something and you're forced to reveal the existence of your Instagram, then you just tell her well, I relapsed. Anyway, here, you can follow me on there now.

It's not lying; it's flirting

Chase