FU Waterdrop

[Marty]

TLDR: met an attractive lady in daytime cold approach; completely failed to hook; proposed a dinner date and grabbed digits; no response to text.

Approach and opening

Late in the afternoon one sunny Saturday a few weeks ago, I was walking through a square in my hometown when I passed a lady around 30 years old, with a very tanned complexion, mid-length brunette hair worn in a bob, and wearing an A-line sundress and dark sunglasses, sitting in direct sunlight at an outdoor table of a café nursing a cocktail. I was headed to a nearby mall to look for a handbag for an upcoming one-day visit to a neighboring country's capital by train. I picked out an excellent handbag (which turned out to be useful not only for trips, but day-to-day: a fine accessory which matches my other dark brown leather items, but that is for a different section of the Forums) and turned back the way I came. The lady was still sitting where I last saw her.

There was something oddly refreshing about her, like a cool drop of condensation on the outside of a water-glass on a hot day: I can't quite place the feeling. Perhaps it was the way she carried herself, even when seated. We'll call her Waterdrop.

I resolved to say hello, and decided to attempt the "authoritative approach" recommended by Chase in the linked article; I have a feeling that I flunked it though.

I approached the table where she was sitting, and from about a meter's distance turned my head to face her, but didn't give her my full body language, which I pointed instead toward the table itself and the empty chair opposite, where I hoped to sit.

Marty: Good afternoon!
Waterdrop: Good afternoon!
Marty: You look very interesting, and I want to meet you.
Waterdrop: Oh! (smiling) Hahahahaha!
Marty: (grinning) I simply couldn't resist it!
Waterdrop: (flirtatious laughter) Hahahahaha!
Marty: What's your name?
Waterdrop: Waterdrop.
Marty: Good to meet you. I'm Marty. (extend my hand and grasp hers gently)
Waterdrop: Good to meet you too, Marty.
Marty: (indicating empty chair with a broad gesture) May I take a seat?
Waterdrop: Certainly.

Conversation and number close

I sat and we began conversation. I remarked that the weather had cooled a little, a relief from the constant heat of past weeks, and she agreed that it was pleasant to be able to sit in the sunshine without the excessive heat. I asked her what she did for a living; she replied that she was an assistant in a construction firm. I remarked that it was probably a lot of responsibility supporting a busy executive, but she broke rapport and responded "Not really".

Marty: So you're just chilling in the sunshine this afternoon?
Waterdrop: Yes. Did you see the Brazilian festival in the main city square? I just got done there; they're packing up now.
Marty: Ah that's what it was. I went for a run this morning in the park and heard some drumming.
Waterdrop: Yeah, there was dancing; it was pretty good actually.
Marty: Do you dance yourself?
Waterdrop: Not professionally.
Marty: Ah, you mean you do a little social dancing?
Waterdrop: Yeah, on and off.
Marty: What about performances? You say you enjoyed the dance show, do you visit the theater often?
Waterdrop: Yes actually, I like ballet.

The conversation was factual and devoid of any real connection. I asked what part of town she lived, and when she reciprocated, I mentioned I spent about half of each year living here, but she didn't take the bait and ask where I spent the rest of my time, let alone why. Time to exit:

Marty: Well, I shan't keep you from enjoying your cocktail on this lovely day. Would you like to get dinner sometime?
Waterdrop: Sure!
Marty: Here, let me grab your number.

I handed her my phone and asked what messaging app she preferred to be contacted on; she said WhatsApp, which is unsurprising in this part of the world. I left her to finish up her afternoon café session and wished her a good evening.

Texting

About 90 minutes after I left her, at 18:45, I sent an icebreaker:

Marty: Good evening, Waterdrop. Happy to have met a fellow ballet enthusiast! Save my number, please Marty

No response. Ten days later, Tuesday evening:

Marty: Good evening, Waterdrop, I hope that you had a nice weekend. How does your schedule look for this week? Would an invitation to dinner on, say, Thursday or Friday suit you?

No response. As mentioned above, I had been unable to find any topics to connect on during the initial conversation, so I wasn't too surprised not to hear back. I might have lubricated the interaction better if I had been more direct in the approach, I feel. "You look interesting" and "I couldn't resist it" were probably a bit weak and I needed to lay it on thicker. She had a pretty face that had an interesting, fairly flat profile; I could have described to her in detail what I liked about it and how pretty and exciting I found it, also complimenting her on her breezy, refreshing look and the way she held herself in the sundress. Maybe that would have gotten me to a hook point. Sometimes I am a bit shy to tell women in person how much I like them until I know them a bit better.

 

[gameboy]

I could have described to her in detail what I liked about it and how pretty and exciting I found it, also complimenting her on her breezy, refreshing look and the way she held herself in the sundress

Noooo

Tha approach was good, you got her giggling so it seems she was interested at first.

But then it went downhill:

. I remarked that the weather had cooled a little, a relief from the constant heat of past weeks,

Booooring

I asked her what she did for a living; she replied that she was an assistant in a construction firm. I remarked that it was probably a lot of responsibility supporting a busy executive

Even more boring. Her reaction shows you broke rapport with that comment.

It sounds like you didn"t do any flirting, touching or compliance? That would have spiced thinks up a bit.

Marty: Good evening, Waterdrop. Happy to have met a fellow ballet enthusiast! Save my number, please Marty

I"d have added a question just to see if she"ll banter a bit back and forth

Marty: Good evening, Waterdrop, I hope that you had a nice weekend. How does your schedule look for this week? Would an invitation to dinner on, say, Thursday or Friday suit you?

Ten days is a long time! Anyway, should have done a soft close first. But after ten days of radio silence, a bit of banter is pretty much mandatory to even remind her who you are. Better would have been to say "Hey W, it" s M, I just thought of you while doing XYZ! How are you doing?"

and adjust from there depending in her replies.

 

[gameboy]

Oh, and humor. Do you make jokes with the girls? They love that. A buddy (who was pretty good with the ladies himself) once told me, if you can make a girl laugh, that's half the way.

 

[Will_V]

@Marty definitely sounds like you're not pacing her. She's just come from a Brazilian dance party where the drums have been pounding in her ears while she's been grinding hot dudes in singlets and flip flops, and you're coming in way too classy and straight laced.

That's probably why her first reaction was good, because of the spike of "oh he's talking to me!", but as soon as she felt the mismatched energy, the rapport disappeared.

TLDR: met an attractive lady in daytime cold approach; completely failed to hook; proposed a dinner date and grabbed digits; no response to text.

Approach and opening

Late in the afternoon one sunny Saturday a few weeks ago, I was walking through a square in my hometown when I passed a lady around 30 years old, with a very tanned complexion, mid-length brunette hair worn in a bob, and wearing an A-line sundress and dark sunglasses, sitting in direct sunlight at an outdoor table of a café nursing a cocktail. I was headed to a nearby mall to look for a handbag for an upcoming one-day visit to a neighboring country's capital by train. I picked out an excellent handbag (which turned out to be useful not only for trips, but day-to-day: a fine accessory which matches my other dark brown leather items, but that is for a different section of the Forums) and turned back the way I came. The lady was still sitting where I last saw her.

There was something oddly refreshing about her, like a cool drop of condensation on the outside of a water-glass on a hot day: I can't quite place the feeling. Perhaps it was the way she carried herself, even when seated. We'll call her Waterdrop.

I resolved to say hello, and decided to attempt the "authoritative approach" recommended by Chase in the linked article; I have a feeling that I flunked it though.

I approached the table where she was sitting, and from about a meter's distance turned my head to face her, but didn't give her my full body language, which I pointed instead toward the table itself and the empty chair opposite, where I hoped to sit.

Marty: Good afternoon!
Waterdrop: Good afternoon!
Marty: You look very interesting, and I want to meet you.
Waterdrop: Oh! (smiling) Hahahahaha!
Marty: (grinning) I simply couldn't resist it!
Waterdrop: (flirtatious laughter) Hahahahaha!
Marty: What's your name?
Waterdrop: Waterdrop.
Marty: Good to meet you. I'm Marty. (extend my hand and grasp hers gently)
Waterdrop: Good to meet you too, Marty.
Marty: (indicating empty chair with a broad gesture) May I take a seat?
Waterdrop: Certainly.

Not bad, depending on your vibe. You don't need to do anything crazy on the opener as long as your body language is good, and she's obviously receptive here.

Conversation and number close

I sat and we began conversation. I remarked that the weather had cooled a little, a relief from the constant heat of past weeks, and she agreed that it was pleasant to be able to sit in the sunshine without the excessive heat. I asked her what she did for a living; she replied that she was an assistant in a construction firm. I remarked that it was probably a lot of responsibility supporting a busy executive, but she broke rapport and responded "Not really".

Often when girls break rapport it's because they feel like you're not on the same wavelength. She's still in the afterglow of the party and you're asking her about her job, so she's just like 'nah' to everything.

But ok, you don't know yet what she's been up to, and you did well to get her to open up with your next question.

Marty: So you're just chilling in the sunshine this afternoon?
Waterdrop: Yes. Did you see the Brazilian festival in the main city square? I just got done there; they're packing up now.
Marty: Ah that's what it was. I went for a run this morning in the park and heard some drumming.
Waterdrop: Yeah, there was dancing; it was pretty good actually.

This was your cue to think 'aha! she's probably in a way more festive/high energy mood than I am, I'll need to focus on fun stuff and tease her'.

Marty: Do you dance yourself?
Waterdrop: Not professionally.
Marty: Ah, you mean you do a little social dancing?
Waterdrop: Yeah, on and off.
Marty: What about performances? You say you enjoyed the dance show, do you visit the theater often?
Waterdrop: Yes actually, I like ballet.

With this you're really saying "hey I don't know anything about brazilian dance parties, I'm way above that". Not good at all for rapport.

Better would have been something like:

"Oh what sort of dancing was that?"
"Did you dress up in one of those little samba costumes with feathers in your hair?"
"Can you move those hips like the brazilian girls or are you doing the gringo dance?"
"Did you get to play the drums?"

Get her talking about it and start playing with some light sexual frames, that's the sort of mood she's going to be in.

Even after you veered onto the topic of ballet, you have to start asking her questions like:

"What do you like about dancing?"
"What got you into dancing in the first place?"
"How does dancing make you feel?"

Remember, she has to prove to you that she's an interesting girl who's fun to be with, and you have to lead her to open up that way to you. And when she does, then you have something substantial to qualify her on.

The conversation was factual and devoid of any real connection. I asked what part of town she lived, and when she reciprocated, I mentioned I spent about half of each year living here, but she didn't take the bait and ask where I spent the rest of my time, let alone why. Time to exit:

Marty: Well, I shan't keep you from enjoying your cocktail on this lovely day. Would you like to get dinner sometime?
Waterdrop: Sure!
Marty: Here, let me grab your number.

The interaction is pretty dead at this point. In general though, you've got to qualify her on something before you go for the number, otherwise she's going to think you just came up because she's hot.

Even something super basic like saying that she has a unique style or energy is better than nothing. But it's best to qualify her on what she reveals to you about what sort of girl she is, which is why getting to deeper questions is key.

For example, if she talks about how she loves ballet because it makes her feel like she can shut the world out and let out her emotions, you can qualify her like "I like how you're a girl who can be present and express yourself through your body, so many people are unaware of what a wonderful experience that is."

You want to reflect back to her what you like about her that she feels is important - especially if it is vaguely analogous to a sexual experience.

I handed her my phone and asked what messaging app she preferred to be contacted on; she said WhatsApp, which is unsurprising in this part of the world. I left her to finish up her afternoon café session and wished her a good evening.

Texting

About 90 minutes after I left her, at 18:45, I sent an icebreaker:

Marty: Good evening, Waterdrop. Happy to have met a fellow ballet enthusiast! Save my number, please Marty

Here again you're trying to connect over ballet, which is not something she ever expounded on, so that's a very weak point of rapport.

No response. Ten days later, Tuesday evening:

Marty: Good evening, Waterdrop, I hope that you had a nice weekend. How does your schedule look for this week? Would an invitation to dinner on, say, Thursday or Friday suit you?

Nope. Going straight to a hard close ten days after the fact is simply never going to work.

It's not worth talking about logistics at all until you've had some kind of texting back and forth, and you want to go for a soft close like:

<after texting back and forth> "what do you say we meet for a bite or a drink later this week? I know a good place"

Also, ten days is a very long time to wait before following up.

No response. As mentioned above, I had been unable to find any topics to connect on during the initial conversation, so I wasn't too surprised not to hear back. I might have lubricated the interaction better if I had been more direct in the approach, I feel. "You look interesting" and "I couldn't resist it" were probably a bit weak and I needed to lay it on thicker. She had a pretty face that had an interesting, fairly flat profile; I could have described to her in detail what I liked about it and how pretty and exciting I found it, also complimenting her on her breezy, refreshing look and the way she held herself in the sundress. Maybe that would have gotten me to a hook point. Sometimes I am a bit shy to tell women in person how much I like them until I know them a bit better.

I don't think trying to qualify her on her physical appearance would have worked well, it's very hard to do that without coming off thirsty.

You want to qualify on what kind of girl she is instead.

 

[Marty]

Very interesting, @Will_V, I had imagined that this was just a pointless fuckup, but I'm glad I posted it, since your analysis shows a number of pointers for my improvement.

@Marty definitely sounds like you're not pacing her. She's just come from a Brazilian dance party where the drums have been pounding in her ears while she's been grinding hot dudes in singlets and flip flops, and you're coming in way too classy and straight laced.

Ha that's a good observation; not only did I not realize it at the time, but it didn't hit me afterward either, until you pointed it out.

Often when girls break rapport it's because they feel like you're not on the same wavelength. She's still in the afterglow of the party and you're asking her about her job, so she's just like 'nah' to everything.

Yes, it was a boring subject. Most of the time I'm not sure what to say until I start to connect with a person. It's different if I'm in an authoritative position where I can help someone or give guidance, but when approaching women, I have trouble with (a) what to say to get their attention in the first place, before they even know I'm interested; and (b) what to say immediately after that. Once the flow starts a bit, it's just usual social skills, which I'm comfortable with, of course.

This was your cue to think 'aha! she's probably in a way more festive/high energy mood than I am, I'll need to focus on fun stuff and tease her'.

Mm, that's a good observation. I'm not experienced with that sort of communication yet; if I'd known, I probably would have found a way to abort, but in a way, I'm glad I continued talking, as it gives me something to learn from (especially thanks to your breakdown of the interaction, @Will_V).

With this you're really saying "hey I don't know anything about Brazilian dance parties, I'm way above that". Not good at all for rapport.

Oops! I had no idea, but I agree, not a good look in that case

Not that I do know anything about them, but I could have dug deeper to find out what all the fuss was about

Better would have been something like:

"Oh what sort of dancing was that?"
"Did you dress up in one of those little samba costumes with feathers in your hair?"
"Can you move those hips like the brazilian girls or are you doing the gringo dance?"
"Did you get to play the drums?"

Those are good ideas for the future, in a similar situation, thank you!

Remember, she has to prove to you that she's an interesting girl who's fun to be with, and you have to lead her to open up that way to you. And when she does, then you have something substantial to qualify her on.

This is really tricky. I do this naturally, of course, with subordinates, interview candidates, etc.; I can't imagine for the moment how to transfer that to attractive women, who seem so far "above" me in all respects. Not that they seem that way anymore after they become a girlfriend

The interaction is pretty dead at this point.

Ah I see, that's why she didn't respond.

In general though, you've got to qualify her on something before you go for the number, otherwise she's going to think you just came up because she's hot.

I did Yes, but seriously, I'm starting to understand the dynamic a bit know. She might think I wasn't serious, or some kind of a "player" (ironically). Unbelievably, I've had girls text me things like "I wasn't born yesterday", "what have you being doing all weekend", "Answer the question: Do you have a serious girl or not?" in recent months. It's as if they've gotten hold of the exact wrong end of the stick, for some reason.

But it's best to qualify her on what she reveals to you about what sort of girl she is, which is why getting to deeper questions is key.

Yes, I really had difficulty opening her up on any subject, but I like your ideas of how to do it.

"I like how you're a girl who can be present and express yourself through your body, so many people are unaware of what a wonderful experience that is."

You want to reflect back to her what you like about her that she feels is important - especially if it is vaguely analogous to a sexual experience.

Will she want to draw parallels to a sexual experience even before she's romantically interested?

Nope. Going straight to a hard close ten days after the fact is simply never going to work.

It's not worth talking about logistics at all until you've had some kind of texting back and forth

Have I been doing this wrong all along?

I've always followed this classic texting guide which recommends not boring women with too much chat, and using the text medium mainly for setting up a date and logistics. It also mentions that you can't really build attraction by text message.

Am I misunderstanding this area of seduction?

Also, ten days is a very long time to wait before following up.

Again, I thought radio silence was the name of the game after getting no response, so as to match my interest level to hers and not to show neediness. I feel a bit at sea now, since I can't reconcile the seemingly conflicting advice. I apologize for putting it this way, but it is for the sake of learning and improvement.

@gameboy, all great points and I notice that a lot of them coincide with the explanations given by @WillV.

Oh, and humor. Do you make jokes with the girls?

Unfortunately I haven't been able to do that yet. I find it uncomfortable to show my humorous side to someone I've just met—something to work on for sure.

 

[Will_V]

Yes, it was a boring subject. Most of the time I'm not sure what to say until I start to connect with a person. It's different if I'm in an authoritative position where I can help someone or give guidance, but when approaching women, I have trouble with (a) what to say to get their attention in the first place, before they even know I'm interested; and (b) what to say immediately after that. Once the flow starts a bit, it's just usual social skills, which I'm comfortable with, of course.

It's not so much that you have to be really exciting from the get go, you just have to quickly navigate to something exciting and fun asap.

I might talk to a girl like this (after the opener):

Me: "So what are you up to today"
Her: "Going back home actually, it's been a long day"
Me: "Oh really, what do you do?"
Her: "I'm an accountant"
Me (looking slightly dubious): "Is that fun?"
Her: "Haha sort of, I like it"
Me: "So you're good with numbers? Are you like a secret nerd?"

There you go, I lead her very quickly though the process of establishing basic information, and I'm looking for any opportunity to set up a fun, engaged, and preferably vaguely sexual vibe. Even when I don't see a clear opportunity, I'm attempting to steer the conversation toward fun, like when I asked her "Is that fun?". The vibe I want to establish is "let's not be boring, let's get to the fun stuff real quick".

A boring dude would have said something like (when she said she liked her job):

Boring dude: "Oh that's really good! How long have you been doing that for?"

Who cares? Boring.

Mm, that's a good observation. I'm not experienced with that sort of communication yet; if I'd known, I probably would have found a way to abort, but in a way, I'm glad I continued talking, as it gives me something to learn from (especially thanks to your breakdown of the interaction, @Will_V).

Absolutely, when you don't have anything good, say something anyway. You don't have to avoid boring topics altogether, you just have to know how to move past them quickly when you see the opportunity.

Oops! I had no idea, but I agree, not a good look in that case

Not that I do know anything about them, but I could have dug deeper to find out what all the fuss was about

Exactly, you could just tease her with some exaggerated idea of what a brazilian dance party is all about.

Whenever a girl shows knowledge or experience in something you don't know about, it's usually best to mix curiosity and light teasing. That lets her 'teach' you about it without her having to lose her submissive position in the interaction.

Those are good ideas for the future, in a similar situation, thank you!


This is really tricky. I do this naturally, of course, with subordinates, interview candidates, etc.; I can't imagine for the moment how to transfer that to attractive women, who seem so far "above" me in all respects. Not that they seem that way anymore after they become a girlfriend

You're going to have to figure out a way to lose that mentality of her being better than you.

I did Yes, but seriously, I'm starting to understand the dynamic a bit know. She might think I wasn't serious, or some kind of a "player" (ironically). Unbelievably, I've had girls text me things like "I wasn't born yesterday", "what have you being doing all weekend", "Answer the question: Do you have a serious girl or not?" in recent months. It's as if they've gotten hold of the exact wrong end of the stick, for some reason.

Maybe, but she also knows that every guy wants to bang a hot girl, regardless of whether he's a player or not. She wants instead to feel a context for why you chose her that is more ambiguous, exciting, and involves her proving herself to you.

Will she want to draw parallels to a sexual experience even before she's romantically interested?

You don't have to draw the parallel yourself in an explicit way, she will do it for you in her own mind when you present something in a vaguely suggestive or sensual way. She might not even be aware of it, but her subconscious will be aroused.

Women are by nature suggestible and receptive, her mind and body are highly sensitive to stimulation at any time. That's why calibrated, subtle sexual messages and innuendo work a lot better than being explicit.

Have I been doing this wrong all along?

I've always followed this classic texting guide which recommends not boring women with too much chat, and using the text medium mainly for setting up a date and logistics. It also mentions that you can't really build attraction by text message.

Am I misunderstanding this area of seduction?

When I say 'back and forth' that doesn't mean pages of love letters, it could mean only a couple of messages. But you do have to establish on the phone an ongoing interaction before you try to soft close. You can't just jump in and try to set up the date like you're calling a taxi.

I know some guys do longer texting, some guys shorter. I usually send 2 or 3 messages (and get 2 or 3 replies) before I go for the soft close. That to me is basically using the phone for logistics. But that small amount of rapport, on the phone, is very critical because it lets her know that you're still the dude she was talking to before, you're still chill and the vibe isn't changed.

Again, I thought radio silence was the name of the game after getting no response, so as to match my interest level to hers and not to show neediness. I feel a bit at sea now, since I can't reconcile the seemingly conflicting advice. I apologize for putting it this way, but it is for the sake of learning and improvement.

No, I believe the texting article on Girls Chase specifically says that girls sometimes don't reply to the icebreaker and you should simply follow up the next day or whatever as if she had replied. That's what I do.

I find girls usually reply to the icebreaker (when they are interested) but the reality is that an icebreaker isn't really a proper start to a conversation, there's nothing much for her to reply to. And girls don't usually take it upon themselves to start conversations on their own.

You also do not want to be playing investment games over text, it's an incredibly weak medium of communication which puts the whole seduction at risk. She might've seen the message but was busy or something and meant to reply, but forgot. Or she might have thought you were just sending the message so she had your number. And you're there imagining the worst and chalking down 10 days to punish her for that when she hardly even knows you.

Until you go on a date, give her plenty of benefit of the doubt, and don't play games. If she's acting badly on the date, respond to that in person.