what makes someone advanced?

[Mr.Rob]

Good question and discussion. In my mind Intermediate holds a large spectrum of guys (on the forum ranks its levels 3-5) you have the beginner-intermediate (who I guess has some skill in approaching/flirting and maybe getting laid every once in a blue moon).

Then you have the middle ground intermediate (who gets laid more consistently than the beginner-intermediate but not with the type of girls he most wants OR with the level of ease he'd prefer).

Then you have the intermediate-advanced. This guy gets laid consistently with relative ease and is also able to snag a few girls he's really excited about and probably will take one of those girls as a girlfriend/FWB.

The advanced guys (and I have a high standard for my definition I suppose) are the guys that can consistently attract, seduce, and bed highest caliber and most beautiful girls and take girlfriends with these girls with ease (if they so desire).

I'd add as a sidenote that the more advanced you get the more powerful and adept you become at being able to make a significant emotional impact on women and get them chasing throughout all points of the seduction/relationship.

You could even rate each level at their ability to consistently produce strong emotions in women to make them chase and desire you.

Also guys who are more advanced use more advanced and nuanced tech as well (obviously), and are able to read and know the exact thing for a given situation because they've seen it so many times.

This is how I look at it in my mind at least. Its a spectrum.
--------------------------------------------------

Now I also agree with Velasco's breakdown and definition as well. Ultimately that is the skillset of seduction is seducing someone to entice someone that was "meh" into "I must have you".

I would argue however that as your ability to do what Velasco mentions above increases you will likely move further along the spectrum I outlined.

That said "intermediates" can still have tremendous success, but I reserve advanced for the elite status, and guys that are clearly a cut above.

When you read the LR's of guys like Hector, Teevster, Bacchus, Tony, all the top tier guys on the forum you can often tell the difference and feel the difference in precision and skill when reading a more intermediate guys LR.

I do at least. When I think I'm hot stuff and start thinking "well I've pretty much got things figured out" I go read their reports and get inspired at how much further I can go with tech, with controlling the girls emotional experience, and with consistency.

 

[naturalmikey]

here’s a hypothetical situation. say time travel exists and i have a time machine.

tonight i go out and i’ll feeling good and entitled to hot bitches. i walk to this chick i’m just “oh my god” she’s like “what?” i’m like “you look like my next mistake.” she laughs we talk and i pull her within five minutes. we fuck all night.

the next day i travel back in time. but i’m in my head. i go up to the same girl in the same club at the same exact time. this time i’m not feeling it. i use the same opener and it kinda freaks her out. she’s clearly a maybe girls. but i use all the lines. i pace and lead i fractionate, i anchor to me. you get the point. eventually i gave her in hypnosis. after an hour i pull her home. she has asd because even though the game is the right the vibe is slightly off. so i freeze her out. she comes into the living room where i’m working on an important project. she’s finally ready to give in.

so in the second example is my game better?

 

[naturalmikey]

Good question and discussion. In my mind Intermediate holds a large spectrum of guys (on the forum ranks its levels 3-5) you have the beginner-intermediate (who I guess has some skill in approaching/flirting and maybe getting laid every once in a blue moon).

Then you have the middle ground intermediate (who gets laid more consistently than the beginner-intermediate but not with the type of girls he most wants OR with the level of ease he'd prefer).

Then you have the intermediate-advanced. This guy gets laid consistently with relative ease and is also able to snag a few girls he's really excited about and probably will take one of those girls as a girlfriend/FWB.

The advanced guys (and I have a high standard for my definition I suppose) are the guys that can consistently attract, seduce, and bed highest caliber and most beautiful girls and take girlfriends with these girls with ease (if they so desire).

I'd add as a sidenote that the more advanced you get the more powerful and adept you become at being able to make a significant emotional impact on women and get them chasing throughout all points of the seduction/relationship.

You could even rate each level at their ability to consistently produce strong emotions in women to make them chase and desire you.

Also guys who are more advanced use more advanced and nuanced tech as well (obviously), and are able to read and know the exact thing for a given situation because they've seen it so many times.

This is how I look at it in my mind at least. Its a spectrum.
--------------------------------------------------

Now I also agree with Velasco's breakdown and definition as well. Ultimately that is the skillset of seduction is seducing someone to entice someone that was "meh" into "I must have you".

I would argue however that as your ability to do what Velasco mentions above increases you will likely move further along the spectrum I outlined.

That said "intermediates" can still have tremendous success, but I reserve advanced for the elite status, and guys that are clearly a cut above.

When you read the LR's of guys like Hector, Teevster, Bacchus, Tony, all the top tier guys on the forum you can often tell the difference and feel the difference in precision and skill when reading a more intermediate guys LR.

I do at least. When I think I'm hot stuff and start thinking "well I've pretty much got things figured out" I go read their reports and get inspired at how much further I can go with tech, with controlling the girls emotional experience, and with consistency.

very insightful. i generally do gauge my game by how much i’m being chased.

 

[Velasco]

@naturalmikey

your turning this into Outer Game Vs inner Game. Just like guys do when they start Game Vs Looks threads on which is more important/better?

When the answer is to maximize both.

 

[naturalmikey]

@naturalmikey

your turning this into Outer Game Vs inner Game. Just like guys do when they start Game Vs Looks threads on which is more important/better?

When the answer is to maximize both.

don’t try to put me in your frame. we’re having an adult discussion i’m not a chick in a bar. it’s a legit question is day two more advanced than day one.

i’m just saying inner game is more than just fundamentals. you can seduce with your vibe. that is my argument. doesn’t mean i’m right or your wrong or vice versa

 

[naturalmikey]

I think people like Julien are about as good as one can get at game. And I think he pulls about the same percetage of 'yes girls' and 'maybe girls' as most of us do, tbh. He also gets rejected 'a tonne' (in his words)

what makes julien so great is his ability to communicate with his facial expressions and body language. he is the best i’ve ever seen at that anywhere, pua or otherwise. that is another part of game and one that isn’t talked about nearly enough.

 

[flatron]

I'd say;
'advanced' is someone who bangs basically ALL 'yes girls' (they open you first/or give big IOI's/you can can tell within seconds they like you etc etc.) and a good percentage of 'maybe girls' - (girls who think you're decent looking and they're clearly at least somewhat receptive to your open/talk back instead of semi ignoring you etc)
I'll leave out 'no girls' as nobody can get them lol. Hot girls who aren't receptive at all and you are just not their type. They could be rude and tell you that they're not interested and ask you to leave, or just ignore your open and walk away, or maybe just give you one word answers but you can tell they don't want any part of this etc - Depending on things like your looks/age/whatever, a huge percentage of girls you open might be 'no girls', even with 'advanced game, but it is what it is

 

[Hue]

I think it mainly boils down to three things. Social intuition, social calibration, and having high "women IQ".

EDIT: Apologies for the typos. I began to write a simple response before heading into work and then out of passion it grew into something much larger. They will be fixed by tomorrow.

Over the years I've talked with plenty of women about bad dates they've had. I've also been on plenty of bad dates. I've also been on plenty of dates that were going totally fine, but then because of something I read online about "how to pull girls home" or techniques to use on dates I force something in the interaction.

A great example is how many inexperienced guys, and my former self, have tried to kiss girls when it was completely inappropriate.

To girls, these are horror stories. "We were just talking, he started looking at me weird, and then he just went for it!".

To guys, they were simply following the advice they'd gotten. "Bro, sometimes, you just have to go for it". Or, they read articles (even here at GC) about how it can be bold to simply go for the kiss.

And, it is bold to just go for the kiss sometimes.

Sometimes, it just makes you look like a social retard, because, you probably are one XD


Guys will be so focused on going through the mechanical motions, they fail to see what's in front of them. They lack social intuition.

Then you have the concern of not being able to DO something, now that you see what's in front of you. Guys freeze up. They haven't read a girlschase article for this exact situation, so what do they do? They have not learned social calibration.

These two things are interconnected with the major subject of importance in the matter: WOMEN. You can learn all about red pill culture, PUA culture, evolutionary psychology, and go out with some of the best gambits invented... but you might not really understand women. If you understood women, then you'd know when she wants to be kissed, why she wants to be kissed, how she wants to be kissed (and why), and generally what a women wants. Until you've worked females out in your own head, you lack "women IQ".


1). It takes a trained eye (social intuition) to be advanced with women.

A girl giving you signs. Girls communicate MOSTLY through body language and subtle hints. This is the true teller of what they're feeling, and from there you can assume what they're thinking.

• Is her smile real? (are her eye muscles also being used? does her smile go out and up? or do her eyes remain the same while her lips simply move to show her teeth)
• Has she lowered her "guard"? (is her body language open, and is she now flowing with the situation? is she less tense and on the defensive towards this guy she's talking to? does she look comfortable by doing things like swaying and putting weight in her motions, or is she stiff and rigid?)
• Are her friends actually skeptical of you, or are they just jealous you're talking to her? (were they looking interested when you first walked up, and now suddenly being a bitch, or were they kind of pissed of you walked up in the first place?)

The more you go out, the more approaches you have, and the more dates you've been on are what teaches you this. You have to watch, observe, and reflect enough to be advanced. This is why newbies, when they're fresh starting out, just have to go out and do it.

Once you have seen for yourself, you know what a women who's ready to be kissed looks like.


2). The second part of that is having enough experience to train your social calibration.

Being able to read the room, read the situation, and adjust accordingly down to the subtle nuance of whatever you're going for. For example:

• Is your inflection of voice has to be just enough to add flair, but not over the top? (You're not overly ecstatic about the interaction, and you're not too dull. You're happy about what's going on but not gushing....you're talking about sex in a calm tone, you're telling a joke in a sexy tone, you're moving through a story with high and low notes)
• Is your touch in the sweet spot? (Not too strong, not too light. She doesn't feel like you're jerking her or putting pressure on her. She doesn't barely notice you touching her either. Your touch is a total enhancement to the situation)
• Is the volume you speak at totally appropriate to the message your conveying? (You're not bursting out laughing at something that's just not that funny. You're not too quiet and sounding timid. Your voice reaches her and she connects).
• Are your pulls are done at just the right moment? (You're not rushing her and not leaving her on the verge of becoming bored. She doesn't even think twice about saying yes or no, and if she does, it changes in her head quickly)
• Are you persisting properly? (You're not begging her to comply, you're just nudging her to do it again. You're non-needy, you're confident and determined that she'll join you)
• Are the clothes you're wearing matching the venue? (You stand out just enough to not be overly peacocking but still grabbing attention. You're not at a fancy cocktail bar in baggy clothes and sweat pants. Your watch pops a bit, but is not showboating how much cash you just put into the bank)
• Are you delivering a properly timed compliments? (Your compliments aren't too public to the point she gets embarrassed. If they are, you solve the tension quickly. Or, you're doing them alone where she's fully focused on you, and doesn't have to worry about the opinions of others).
• Are your smiles having an effect on her? (Your smile slowly builds when she's speaking on a juicy topic to add sexiness to the interaction. You're not just like all the time, and you're not flat :| either. You've learned how to move body language in a way that tells a story about what's going on with you)

Everything has gotten to a point where you know what's going on, you know what to do, and you know how to hit it with just that perfect touch, right in the sweet spot. Or maybe you're just close enough. It's not perfect, but it does the job 90% of the time. You're a pretty smooth operator and you're getting the results that you should have on it.

You kiss her when she's ready to be kissed, when you kissing her is a present surprise, and any time that it generally enhances the situation.

You have a slight of hand, and that gives you the freedom to be a technician in most all situations.


3). Lastly, and perhaps most fundamental, is having a deeper understanding of how women think and operate (Women IQ)

Intermediate guys are still piecing together a lot of what works for them, without really knowing why... they're too inconsistent to see the relevant patterns of the women's psyche. Or maybe they've memorized certain stacks or conversational topics and methods that work. But they only know the methods, they don't know women.

Once you have experienced enough sets, enough girls, and noticed particular reference points during moments as a set develops, then you start to really understand women for the creatures they are. It takes some mental work. I had to first learn their dark side, their good side, accept and appreciate both, and then unlearn all these preconceived notions about females I had growing up.

• Women are selfish creatures, just like all other human beings. They're not the princess from Frozen. They want people to provide for them and will use them to get that.. sometimes through less-than-attractive means. Sometimes it means reframing the situation in her head so that whatever is taking place is about HER, almost completely.
• Women want to get fucked, hard, by a guy who knows what he's doing in bed. If you are with her and can't provide that, she has the option to fuck a guy that will - and she probably will. Why wouldn't she?
• Women are passive. This is a double edged sword at times. It allows you to be dominant and lead the situation, letting her be a passenger in your life.... but it also means that when issues arise, they likely won't speak on it. Instead they'll sneak around to create some solution where you'll probably only see the outcome, not the mechanics behind it.
• Women want to have their social support system highly sustained. Sometimes, that means being cutthroat to other women and other men in their lives. If you're bringing them down, you won't be around very long. Sometimes, it means giving you the support you need to stay on the horse and the motivation to keep your shit together and maintain your value.
• Women are nurturers. If you've shown to her that you are indeed a very valuable man, they want to love and support you whenever they're with you. They want to let you grow, and give you want you want and deserve... and they have an immense capacity for this.
• Women, like everybody, also want someone in their life that knows who they are, understands them, and can give them the feeling of being appreciated, loved, and that they're important. They want a man that has learned how to do that.

Women in so many ways are just like everyone else, and want the same things, deep down. But the way (the medium) they get what they want is much different than the way men get what they want. They're complex creatures until you really understand them - and then they become simple.

Women are quite beautiful, once you understand the female sex.

Understanding women allows you to know what's going to work for the human being (who has tits and a pussy) in front of you, and not just some catch-all method you use on all women, whenever.

Women IQ is what connects the dots.

It connects your social intuition ("I understand how women work and this women in front of me is doing X,Y,Z") and your social calibration ("I know what she wants because she's doing X, she wants Y. let's do Y and let's do it juuuust right to match the context").

A women wants to be kissed passionately because this high value, dominant man in front of her is so engrossed by her that he can't help himself but plunge forward and pull her whole body into him. He wants nothing more than to connect with her in that moment, and knowing this makes her feel wanted, worthy, and able to enjoy the esctacy of the kiss. And what's better is that the man has shown her he's real - so there's nothing wrong with it. She doesn't have to feel ashamed for enjoying it. He's worthy of her and she's worthy of him.


A man who has these three things is advanced. Then you can approach the situation, know what's going on, know exactly what to do and exactly how to do it, and show the gorgeous girl in front of you the amazing time she deserves.



Hue

 

[naturalmikey]

@flatrony guide to getting a no girl:

have her inadvertently find out you have something she wants along the lines of wealth or social connections.

 

[naturalmikey]

@Hue another great response. i like the female iq part. my game took off when i started having nonjudgmental platonic relationships with women.

 

[Hue]

@naturalmikey having normal relationships with women is something that a lot of puas miss out on. They truly start seeing women as objects and means to get sex.... when they are so much more. Knowing this benefits you and women immensely.

 

[Velasco]

The more you go out, the more approaches you have, and the more dates you've been on are what teaches you this. You have to watch, observe, and reflect enough to be advanced. This is why newbies, when they're fresh starting out, just have to go out and do it.

Intuition isn't what separates intermediates from advanced guys. Because intermediates have strong intuitions as well. As an intermidate (beginners DO lack this Intuitive power tho) your intuition will tell you where the girl is along the: YES, MAYBE, NO spectrum. And from there you calibrate your approach.

Like I said to @naturalmikey on the previous page, it's not that his game is more advanced now. It's that his intuition is stronger that he is more able to identify YES girls than previously when he was a beginner. The Todd video that @flatron shared is a an example of bad intuition (tho many call Todd advanced). As he should know that he's wasting his time, but keeps trying because he believes he can create attraction out of thin air, when the girls are just not interested at all.

It takes some mental work. I had to first learn their dark side, their good side, accept and appreciate both, and then unlearn all these preconceived notions about females I had growing up.

• Women are selfish creatures, just like all other human beings. They're not the princess from Frozen. They want people to provide for them and will use them to get that.. sometimes through less-than-attractive means. Sometimes it means reframing the situation in her head so that whatever is taking place is about HER, almost completely.
• Women want to get fucked, hard, by a guy who knows what he's doing in bed. If you are with her and can't provide that, she has the option to fuck a guy that will - and she probably will. Why wouldn't she?
• Women are passive. This is a double edged sword at times. It allows you to be dominant and lead the situation, letting her be a passenger in your life.... but it also means that when issues arise, they likely won't speak on it. Instead they'll sneak around to create some solution where you'll probably only see the outcome, not the mechanics behind it.
• Women want to have their social support system highly sustained. Sometimes, that means being cutthroat to other women and other men in their lives. If you're bringing them down, you won't be around very long. Sometimes, it means giving you the support you need to stay on the horse and the motivation to keep your shit together and maintain your value.
• Women are nurturers. If you've shown to her that you are indeed a very valuable man, they want to love and support you whenever they're with you. They want to let you grow, and give you want you want and deserve... and they have an immense capacity for this.
• Women, like everybody, also want someone in their life that knows who they are, understands them, and can give them the feeling of being appreciated, loved, and that they're important. They want a man that has learned how to do that.

disagree. Any beginner/intermediate can be armed with this understanding about women just by reading your standard r/TheRedPill post or reading Hector Castillo's posts on GC tbh

 

[flatron]

he Todd video that @flatron shared is a an example of bad intuition (tho many call Todd advanced). As he should know that he's wasting his time, but keeps trying because he believes he can create attraction out of thin air, when the girls are just not interested at all.

He should have just hypnostised them!

 

[Hue]

Intuition isn't what separates intermediates from advanced guys. Because intermediates have strong intuitions as well.

There's a level beyond the simple YES/NO/MAYBE scale that dives into nuance and the details for the context. Intermediates have pieces of the puzzle but advance guys have much more sorted out and a different picture going on in their heads.

disagree. Any beginner/intermediate can be armed with this understanding about women just by reading your standard r/TheRedPill post or reading Hector Castillo's posts on GC tbh

There's reading about the ideas and then there's living the reality. You can become an expert in the abstractions but entirely lack the reference points to have them generate value in your life.

 

[Velasco]

Knowing that women are not princesses, they want to get fucked hard, are the passive sex isn't a mark of an advanced player. Anyone who's been in the community for more than 2 years should know this as common knowledge and should not be treating women like princesses, be fucking them hard, take an active role in being the one that makes shit happen. Reference experience should only serve to reinforce these ideas but understanding these principes isn't what separates intermediates from advanced guys. Which is what @naturalmikey is asking.

There's a level beyond the simple YES/NO/MAYBE scale that dives into nuance and the details for the context

Intermidates and advanced guys know how girls view them immediately. Then adjust their game accordingly. The difference is advanced guys are more consistent with girls that dont make it easy for them than intermidates. That's it. Both can close YES girls with relative ease. None go around kissing girls at random times. If you still find yourself doing this then you may not be intermidate yet lol.

 

[Teevster]

i honestly don't even know if i want advanced verbal game. i think my inner game is advanced. i don't want to have to persuade through deliberate suggestion. i had a contrived game for a while and it was cool. but it felt manipulative. i think i'm gonna stick with a hybrid leaning natural style. since switching to it the girls i get are consistently hotter than when i had a verbal focus. plus it just feels like i'm being myself. i guess i'm not getting as many maybe girls. but who needs em? and if she doesn't like my natural self why should i care?

Not saying one needs advanced verbal game to be advanced (one can for example be a social wizard and focus on social proof or a super smooth escalator etc). But advanced inner-game - what the hell is that other than yet another marketing gambit?

Genuinely curious.

You cannot have a strong inner game without a strong outer game. It is just not possible. That is unless one is a natural (but naturals will never even get close to top level puas in regard to skills and results - so a natural is rarely considered advanced).

 

[naturalmikey]

Not saying one needs advanced verbal game to be advanced (one can for example be a social wizard and focus on social proof or a super smooth escalator etc). But advanced inner-game - what the hell is that other than yet another marketing gambit?

Genuinely curious.

You cannot have a strong inner game without a strong outer game. It is just not possible. That is unless one is a natural (but naturals will never even get close to top level puas in regard to skills and results - so a natural is rarely considered advanced).

i had almost what i’d refer to as a spiritual experience in june of 2018. i realized that the woman problem was taken care of. sense i’ve dropped a lot of techniques and do way better. i’m not marketing anything. i still use a lot of techniques because i basically ingrained them into my personality.

i agree that at least for me i didn’t get good inner game until i had good outter game. i don’t see the point in spending time in long sets running verbals on maybe girls when there are so many yes girls.

also yes girls is an exaggeration. because yes they’re interested. but it’s not like it doesn’t take game to get them home 90% or the time. the term yes girl makes it sound like you say hello and she asks where you live.

 

[Velasco]

the term yes girl makes it sound like you say hello and she asks where you live

yes girls are girls who as @flatron correctly put it girls who

Open you first
give big IOI's (either before or after you open them)
you can can tell within seconds they like you

Like you opening a girl and she goes, "oh hellllo" with a sexy look on her face as her body shifts to you. There's no doubt on my mind shes a YES. And as long as I dont put my foot in my mouth (anti-game) I will close her.

 

[naturalmikey]

yes girls are girls who as @flatron correctly put it girls who

Open you first
give big IOI's (either before or after you open them)
you can can tell within seconds they like you

Like you opening a girl and she goes, "oh hellllo" with a sexy look on her face as her body shifts to you. There's no doubt on my mind shes a YES. And as long as I dont put my foot in my mouth (anti-game) I will close her.

i guess there’s something in between yes and maybe. because most of the girls i think of don’t make it that easy. and then there’s a few different type of maybe girls. the super friendly maybe girls. they can be hard to get a read on initially because they’re so nice to everyone. they used to confuse me into thinking they were yes girls. then you also have standoffish maybe girls. who often are yes girls in disguise. a lot of the times when a girl is being bitchy i’m like oh yeah it’s fucking on. then you have maybe girls who are hot and cold. they seem like yes then they seem like no. i’m too hard headed for these girls and we normally butt heads in a non sexual way. there’s also ridiculously strong frame maybe girls. these girls love being dominant and go home with weak men. i’m not talking about normal alpha chicks. these are chicks i can not grab the frame from. maybe more advanced guys have a more nuanced method. but i generally just say fuck it. i do fine with these girls on tinder though. because on tinder i’m just normal and not gamey at all. because i know why they’re there.

i feel like three categories just doesn’t cover everything.

 

[Velasco]

there’s a few different type of maybe girls.

100% agree with this statement But the many different types of MAYBE girls contradicts your previous statement, "i don’t see the point in spending time in long sets running verbals on maybe girls when there are so many yes girls". Maybe if your really good looking most of the hot girls you interact with will be instant YES girls. But my experience is that most of the girls I'm interested in will be in the MAYBE category. Just different flavors.

How I separate the MAYBEs from the YES, is that I look at her and ask myself either before or after opening her (internally), "Is she sexually attracted to me?" If yes then she's a YES. If no, but she's receptive to me then she's a MAYBE.

This solves the mystery on the super friendly but not sexually attracted to me (yet) girl and the bitchy but not telling me to fuck off/giving me anything to work with (NO) girl.