Why a "quality" girl is a myth...

[DoWhatWorks]

TLDR: Most guys think they want "quality" but what they actually want is compatability with someone attractive.

There are no shortcuts and the only way to get this is sleep with a ton of girls and let the cream rise to the top. Credit to skills who says this often.

Long version:

Warning this will be a ramble but useful for guys at a certain stage...

Full disclaimer this is something I've had a 180 degree change over the last 12 months.

To call up my old (and kind of embarrassing posts) is finding a wife in the west a fantasy , girlfriend quality abundance and daygame is best for quality.

I've come to the conclusion that "quality" doesn't really exist... What most guys are actually after (including me) is... Compatibility + attractiveness.

Why is this important?

The challenge with compatibility is that it can't be "gamed" into existence. As seducers we get so good at creating attraction that we think we can then just get girls that are naturally just what we like but I don't think this side of game is "controllable". A girl either clicks with you or she doesn't... Especially long term. The way you get the girl you're compatible with is just sleep with loads and you'll click with a few.

An example of compatibility? Sex drive. Some have high, some have low and most are in the middle. Yes you can get a girl to like sex with you and always have it but whether she's got a similar drive to you is just a spin of the genetic wheel. To a lesser extent the same can be said for interests/lifestyle. If you're a beach bum and she's the corporate type, game may get you a ONS & at most short lived FB but you probably won't get anywhere long term.

Second example - I've had girls unprompted tidy everything around them and it turned me on, a close friend told me that would put them off as it means they're too uptight. Again I'd find that girl "higher quality" then a less tidy girl, he'd find her "lower quality" what we both actually want - is someone compatible to us.

"Quality" is subjective and not helpful. Ultimately there's just personality traits and each of them have trade offs. Chase has a great article on this here

Now this is not an excuse to not get good at sleeping with a high % of girls (my date conversion is around ~70%) but it explained to me why I found some girls super fun and energising to be around and others a chore (even if they're enjoying it)

A good way to know if you're "coping" vs you're at that stage is if you regularly have girls enthusiastic and wanting to hang out with you repeatedly but you feel bored/uninterested.

How to make "compatible I.E quality" easier to find

Have an open mind. In the past I had the classic "shopping list" of:

-low body count
-no tattoos
-submissive
-naturally attractive
-smart & sweet.

My last MLTR had all of that and I simply got bored. This then made me reflect and realize I was just copying and pasting the mainstream narrative I.E Male Disney but hadn't built my preferences based on lived experiences. I'd even go as far to say I still don't have enough LTR relationship to know what I truly like.

My latest hypothesis is I like girls who make me feel attractive, stimulated & supported. Most girls can only do 2/3 but that's a topic for a whole other time.

The last girl to do that for me, literally failed at most of my original list lol. It was the one here

What happens as you get better with women

The reason why the top guys were telling me to relax/stop over-thinking and have an open mind in my previous posts is because they'd experienced something that I had only seen in small doses.

After a certain level... It doesn't matter how the girl is... If she likes you enough, she'll change to please you

Nowadays I'm influencing girls without even meaning too. I mention a passing comment of how I like painted nails and then she consistently does it. I say how I like when she pampers me and she's offering to fix holes in my shirt and make me breakfast. It's kind of nuts. It also means a girl doesn't have to be 100% how you like her out the box, 65%/70% is enough and you'll train the rest. Again now understand why SKills talks about fixer upper game. Just wasn't at a level to really understand what he meant at the time.

Tying this all up

If you focus on laying a load of girls, keeping the ones who're compatible with you and deploying common sense to avoid getting close with cluster B's you'll be happier and less frustrated. The rest will fall into place with a little coaching by you.

Just my 2C

Onwards and upwards x

 

[TomInHo]

I agree 100%

When I hear about guys meeting a chick and immediately say she’s quality I can’t help but judge. Like how the hell do you know she’s quality if you haven’t spent enough time with her in a sexual relationship?

Comes across as low key needy and idealistic to me

Because you can meet girls that are great on paper but horrible in the relationship. And girls that at first you’re not that impressed with but fuck because they’re attractive and later you both build something dope together

Sometimes your idea of what “quality” is could be holding you back from truly connecting with someone you’re actually compatible with

 

[Skills]

Agree with the post but my nitpick is what the guy is looking for part... That will be fluid on different stages of the journey and it will be different for many seducers...my point is it does change.... The scariest part is that unfortunately at times you are not looking for shit and you will rather be alone...this happens and again stuff changes depending on the dude...

 

[Skills]

I agree 100%

When I hear about guys meeting a chick and immediately say she’s quality I can’t help but judge. Like how the hell do you know she’s quality if you haven’t spent enough time with her in a sexual relationship?

Comes across as low key needy and idealistic to me

Because you can meet girls that are great on paper but horrible in the relationship. And girls that at first you’re not that impressed but fuck because they’re attractive and later you both build something dope together

Sometimes your idea of what “quality” is could be holding you back from truly connecting with someone you’re actually compatible with

Idealism is off and is one if not the worst mistake guys make... Cause women know I will play temporarily to the idealism and bait and switch...one of my red pill community problem.

 

[topcat]

 

[Police dog]

Quality. Girl. Pick one.

 

[ulrich]

I wonder if this only means that there are two stages.

Like, let’s say you are an intermediate and one of the problems you have is you’re not getting enough “quality” girls… quality here understood as she is a net positive experience in your life.

As you get better at targeting, seducing women AND managing relationships with them, you start getting higher quality but also you start bringing out the “quality” out of your women.

At the en, you reach an advanced stage where “quality” is a given and now instead of prioritizing the abstract, you go for your personal preferences…
You deep down want a high drive girl?… who cares for low body count…
You want someone who is adventurous and worldly? Tattoos are back in the menu…

So, KJing here… but perhaps once you get past quality, then there’s personal preference.

Fashion is like that… you first get proficient in fit, color, contrast, etc… and then you can play with your taste and preferences. Not before.

 

[topcat]

I wonder if this only means that there are two stages.

Like, let’s say you are an intermediate and one of the problems you have is you’re not getting enough “quality” girls… quality here understood as she is a net positive experience in your life.

As you get better at targeting, seducing women AND managing relationships with them, you start getting higher quality but also you start bringing out the “quality” out of your women.

At the en, you reach an advanced stage where “quality” is a given and now instead of prioritizing the abstract, you go for your personal preferences…
You deep down want a high drive girl?… who cares for low body count…
You want someone who is adventurous and worldly? Tattoos are back in the menu…

So, KJing here… but perhaps once you get past quality, then there’s personal preference.

Fashion is like that… you first get proficient in fit, color, contrast, etc… and then you can play with your taste and preferences. Not before.

Hmm, not really. The idea of “quality” here refers more to a man’s idealism or preferences built out of following a mainstream ideal lacking real experience. Not all men have that either.

If you told me in early days, quality is a girl with low body count, no tattoos and a meek personality, I would’ve laughed at you. Why would i want that? Hoes are what I wanted, not some virgin.

Today I’m still somewhat like that, but now i seek compatibility and dynamic personality + personal attractiveness. I’ve learnt with experience that that’s wherever you find it.

At the the end of everything i think what’s proven here, is that with experience you learn what your real preferences are. Versus those you imagine you might like, whether personally prescribed or defined by some conformity to community ideals.

 

[James Cruse]

The reason why the top guys were telling me to relax/stop over-thinking and have an open mind in my previous posts is because they'd experienced something that I had only seen in small doses.

After a certain level... It doesn't matter how the girl is... If she likes you enough, she'll change to please you

This is the basis for what I came here to say:

At some point you will need to frame, prompt and/or suggest the way you would like your ideal girlfriend to behave indirectly and in a fun, relaxed, non-direct, non-confrontational way.

From the first interaction, you do want to set useful frames indirectly, even if only a few. Then more frames on the date(s) or after sex.

I’ve found this is the easiest way to set your behaviour standards for her with the least opposition.

Now, if you find she really won’t accept those frames, then she’s not for you.

But I find, most women want to get into your frame and live in YOUR world as a man, and bring (the best parts) of their world with them into yours.

This means they’ll get into your interests, participate with you in things you are good at - when they like you enough.

If they don’t fall into your frames or get into your interests no matter how clever you are at framing or they whatever your expectations are, they’ll never rise to that level - they’re just not a match, for you.

It’s not really about quality at that point.
I think it’s also incumbant on a man to do Due Diligence on a woman’s past behaviour to see if she may be faking her current behaviour, but that’s hard to do and seeing her past behaviour will make her real personality very obvious.

 

[Alpha13SC]

I would say that it s not really a myth.

But what you should look for in a "quality" girl is what you should actually look into a "quality" person. A good core of values, self care, common sense, low trauma or at least manageable( saying this because we as well have trauma but it matters more what we do with it, esp. the fact that at bit amount of trauma can be healthy in many aspects, at least professionally speaking), low impulsivity, low neuroticism tendencies and so on.

Regarding body count, I think it applies to both males and females. Many of us who went into a relationship after a strike we still keep flirting with others. Why female wouldn t do it?

Personal thought: something that I Ve been thinking for some time is the religious aspect. Ime people inclined towards that can share more good values versus the ones contrarian to it. I had religious girls and they were a bit reserved towards sex(lil bit repressed sexual thoughts also). Keep in mind this is just a correlation, not causality.

Living in an EE country showed me that you can find less shallow girls and people in general in smaller cities or rural places versus ones attracted to the flashy lifestyle of big cities or capital. Less feminism and western influences are also a thing here. Women are followers. Give them something good to follow.

Father figure which I think it goes both ways. I met a few guys without a father figure or at least not a strong one and they were a bit neurotic and act on impulses. Not wanting to offend anyone who didnt had a chance to live with a father in their lives. They knew what respect is.

And of course the compatibility, esp sexually one. Nowadays I find it a big thing to fuck a girl more than 3 times and still wanting to fuck her.

Alpha13SC

 

[DoWhatWorks]

When I hear about guys meeting a chick and immediately say she’s quality I can’t help but judge. Like how the hell do you know she’s quality if you haven’t spent enough time with her in a sexual relationship?

So true. Very often it's guys getting exclusive before 3 months (terrible idea) then the mask the girl was wearing begins to fall off...

It's far better to be non-judgmental and let the true nature of the girl come out so you have an accurate read of what you're dealing with.

For me the minimum time I spend on this is 6 months but some girls have been vetted a year.

with experience you learn what your real preferences are. Versus those you imagine you might like, whether personally prescribed or defined by some conformity to community ideals.

Perfectly put

That will be fluid on different stages of the journey

Good to bring up. This is something I'm personally experiencing that I didn't expect to.

Quality. Girl. Pick one.

Lol I see the point you're making here but think there's more nuance.

Do I expect a girl to love me forever, never flake & never change? Of course not.

But I absolutely expect the girl(s) I'm dealing with to give me a quality of experience otherwise I'm nexting her.

If they don’t fall into your frames or get into your interests no matter how clever you are at framing or they whatever your expectations are, they’ll never rise to that level - they’re just not a match, for you.

Exactly. This is where the guys who fall into relationships within 2 months have issues. They thought or more accurately blindly assumed the girl they're with is a match. This is because they skipped the vetting part (in my opinion should be 6 months minimum) due to lack of abundance, laziness or both.

To go with percentages again if a girl is a 70% match, you can train the rest and both be content.

If she's a 40% match? She'll be trying her hardest only hitting like 60% match to you and ultimately neither of you will be happy.

I think it’s also incumbant on a man to do Due Diligence on a woman’s past behaviour to see if she may be faking her current behaviour, but that’s hard to do

Also disagree that it's hard.

The way I do it - is you have to do it early because as soon as a girl starts seeing you as a long term candidate she'll start hiding things.

So in a non-judgmental fun tone on first dates - I'm finding out: cheating history, wildest sexual experiences, drug use, depression/trauma etc.

Might need a whole post on this, as it requires finesse but it's definitively doable and girls are most honest at the beginning when you're just a guy they've met and there's nothing to lose.

I learnt this from an existing FB who told me about how she'd pegged guys before but as she started to like me the less she revealed lol.

Also I think what's more important than her past behavior's is:

1. Her behaviour with you

2. Her understanding that you'll walk away if her behaviour is poor


@Alpha13SC I respectively disagree what you have shared is what *YOU* look for. Every guy has different preferences. I think guys should focus on exploring girls and seeing what they actually like based on experience and not what mainstream Disney tells them.

*ESPECIALLY* because those guys are the ones who're most affected by girls playing a character.

For example:

low impulsivity

I used to like this... Now? Nah

A low impulsive girl is less likely to spontaneously fuck on a roof-top during date night. Turns out I like that kind of thing and want a girl who boderline grabs my hand and takes me there vs a girl who will do it but needs coaching/encouragement first.

But to Skills point - my preferences may change but it's important to be aware of them and not blindly copy/paste.

something that I Ve been thinking for some time is the religious aspect. Ime people inclined towards that can share more good values versus the ones contrarian to it. I had religious girls and they were a bit reserved towards sex

Personally think this is red pill wet dreams. I come from a religious family, half of which are Muslim (arguably one of the strictest religions) let's just say anal is rife and women are women. Don't believe the hype.

Reason why this is important is those religious girls will sell purity to their advantage to get what they want from you. Mostly not out of maliciousness but to just be pragmatic.

Focusing on the individual girl and what she's actually like comes first

Looking at her background and trying to make assumptions is a sub-par strategy at best. Now if you said you look at those things to stack the odds in your favour than fine, but it's not a fail-proof way to approach it. Often times it makes you lazy to accurately assess the girl because you've got pre-conception blinders on.

Living in an EE country showed me that you can find less shallow girls and people in general in smaller cities or rural places versus ones attracted to the flashy lifestyle of big cities or capital.

This isn't an EE thing this is a life thing. Links back to my point about personality. Some personalities are drawn to cities, some others are drawn to slower country side living.

Again personally I want a bit of a city girl who I can enjoy skyline views and have sushi with, a boring (FOR ME) country girl would leave me so unstimulated I'd lose my mind.

It's not black and white though, it's a spectrum and we need to focus on girls who're most compatible with us on where we fall in the spectrum.

There are guys out there who love a flashy city girl.

Less feminism and western influences are also a thing here.

Don't believe the hype. Recent 30-50 years of culture can't undo a millennia of biology

I live in London & 99% of these girls are only feminist by name and if they like you, act like any other feminine sweet girl.

I'll admit the way you approach it is different but I think that gives me an idea for a whole other post.

Father figure which I think it goes both ways. I met a few guys without a father figure or at least not a strong one and they were a bit neurotic and act on impulses.

Again this is too simplistic. Do people tend to be more well-rounded from stable 2 parent households? Yes of course they do.

Is that always the case? No.

One of the most stable, sweet girls I know was from a single parent house hold and some absolute messes from 2 parent ones.

Focus on who she is, first and foremost

The on-paper stuff helps but is not the full picture.

I think men fall guilty of using rules so they don't have to think like some kind of fucking formular lol.

Low body count + strong dad = Girlfriend even though I met her last week.

Human beings are lot more complex than that and there's so many variables that you're better off just reading her.

Now I'm pedantic/borderline autistic because I'm making a broader point through you as a lot of guys think the same way.

(I literally thought the same way 6-12 months ago)

Last point, I'm not saying have no standards. I'm saying don't project your standards on girls that way you'll see if they genuinelly
meet them or at the very least come close to them so you can train the rest.

When you come in with projections, the girl will play a role, you'll get a character, then get shocked when the dream film becomes a nightmare....

 

[Skills]

This is the basis for what I came here to say:

At some point you will need to frame, prompt and/or suggest the way you would like your ideal girlfriend to behave indirectly and in a fun, relaxed, non-direct, non-confrontational way.

From the first interaction, you do want to set useful frames indirectly, even if only a few. Then more frames on the date(s) or after sex.

I’ve found this is the easiest way to set your behaviour standards for her with the least opposition.

Now, if you find she really won’t accept those frames, then she’s not for you.

But I find, most women want to get into your frame and live in YOUR world as a man, and bring (the best parts) of their world with them into yours.

This means they’ll get into your interests, participate with you in things you are good at - when they like you enough.

If they don’t fall into your frames or get into your interests no matter how clever you are at framing or they whatever your expectations are, they’ll never rise to that level - they’re just not a match, for you.

It’s not really about quality at that point.
I think it’s also incumbant on a man to do Due Diligence on a woman’s past behaviour to see if she may be faking her current behaviour, but that’s hard to do and seeing her past behaviour will make her real personality very obvious.

james i get the point is good the only nitpic the falling on your interest, is not really needed, but i get the point, if you are into boxing (or some other men type activity) she does not have to do it to, as long as she does not make you stop when you are together.... For example so many dude met a girl doing __________________ , then it bother her and they have to stop and they stop... (weed, some friends they don't like etc...)

 

[James Cruse]

To go with percentages again if a girl is a 70% match, you can train the rest and both be content.

If she's a 40% match? She'll be trying her hardest only hitting like 60% match to you and ultimately neither of you will be happy.

That’s the point I was making - if you give her all of your frames and set your standards (in a fun & charming way) and she either CAN’T live up to those standards because she just doesn’t have the capability or she’s so far apart from them to begin with.

Or alternatively - she just doesn’t want to agree to your frame because she doesn’t like it, doesn’t like you enough to follow it or some other issue.

At these points - then it’s not about the “quality” at this point - it’s about lack or compatability & suitability for her to be your LTR.

When I see guys talk about “quality women” - they’re referring to women’s ABILITY and her potential WILLINGNESS to live up to the standards and frames you set.

It’s a whole seperate issue setting those frames and standards and her actually agreeing to following them or improving and rising to them.

 

[James Cruse]

james i get the point is good the only nitpic the falling on your interest, is not really needed, but i get the point, if you are into boxing (or some other men type activity) she does not have to do it to, as long as she does not make you stop when you are together.... For example so many dude met a girl doing __________________ , then it bother her and they have to stop and they stop... (weed, some friends they don't like etc...)

I think this is an issue at the beginning of the relationship, in the first few times you meet of setting the tone of what you do in your lifestyle, seeing if she’s opposing it then.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

After a certain level... It doesn't matter how the girl is... If she likes you enough, she'll change to please you

I'm further down the road from where you are...

Quality Girl might start out wanting to please you. She might do it for years, decades.

But then she might stop liking you, she might stop liking pleasing you.

And it won't be your fault.

It won't be something that you did, or did not do.
You can provide
You can make even more money.
You can give her children
You can do more than 50% with house work and child care.
You can stay in the gym.

You can play it beta and "happy wife, happy life", or you can play it hard, and always be demanding something - and she can just get bored with it.
She can get bored with routine.
She can get bored with novelty.

No matter what your game skill set is.
No matter how cute you are, how good your body is, how many other girls want you
How rich, powerful, and famous you are
How cool you are.

Girls have agency

She can take in new information, change her mood, change her mind, and then change her behavior.

And there's nothing you can do about it.

There's no preventative measures.
There's no remedial measures.

She controls herself. That is the case now, and has always been.

The unreliable nature (from a man's perspective) of women is something that seems to be discussed by every culture on earth, every religion, and every philosophy that touches on it.

And this is the NORM for all girls, not some exception like BPD girls.

The Black Pill takes this to an extreme. No woman can be trusted, thus never get into a relationship.

I feel like PUA circles just don't want to deal with this inconvenient truth, directly. We deal with it indirectly by having the skill set, by having MLTRs or other alternate arrangements, but we barely speak on it.

So guys should take her nature into account when they look for "quality" girls.

The things that guys think make females "quality" are illusions.

No tats? Low Body count? "Submissive"? It takes 1 spring break or girl's trip for that to change permanently.

Her emotions and thoughts are not static. Thus her personality and behavior are not stable.

Although a man can come in teach, instruct, guide, and lead a woman - it's only if she consents to it - and she can withdraw her consent on a whim, on a motion, on a passing feeling, for no reason at all.

WIA

 

[Skills]

I'm further down the road from where you are...

Quality Girl might start out wanting to please you. She might do it for years, decades.

But then she might stop liking you, she might stop liking pleasing you.

And it won't be your fault.

It won't be something that you did, or did not do.
You can provide
You can make even more money.
You can give her children
You can do more than 50% with house work and child care.
You can stay in the gym.

You can play it beta and "happy wife, happy life", or you can play it hard, and always be demanding something - and she can just get bored with it.
She can get bored with routine.
She can get bored with novelty.

No matter what your game skill set is.
No matter how cute you are, how good your body is, how many other girls want you
How rich, powerful, and famous you are
How cool you are.

Girls have agency

She can take in new information, change her mood, change her mind, and then change her behavior.

And there's nothing you can do about it.

There's no preventative measures.
There's no remedial measures.

She controls herself. That is the case now, and has always been.

The unreliable nature (from a man's perspective) of women is something that seems to be discussed by every culture on earth, every religion, and every philosophy that touches on it.

And this is the NORM for all girls, not some exception like BPD girls.

The Black Pill takes this to an extreme. No woman can be trusted, thus never get into a relationship.

I feel like PUA circles just don't want to deal with this inconvenient truth, directly. We deal with it indirectly by having the skill set, by having MLTRs or other alternate arrangements, but we barely speak on it.

So guys should take her nature into account when they look for "quality" girls.

The things that guys think make females "quality" are illusions.

No tats? Low Body count? "Submissive"? It takes 1 spring break or girl's trip for that to change permanently.

Her emotions and thoughts are not static. Thus her personality and behavior are not stable.

Although a man can come in teach, instruct, guide, and lead a woman - it's only if she consents to it - and she can withdraw her consent on a whim, on a motion, on a passing feeling, for no reason at all.

WIA

Exelent.... I read the book called the female brain on how women have this hormonal biological changes, and how women totally change who they are as years go by, most men remain pretty much the same through life....if you stay with a girl for 20 years you are probably dating 3 to 4 versions of the same women...Guys in self improvement we try to have goals and control over our lives... I remember after s tony Robbin seminar I wrote down a list of goals and s list on what I wanted in a women then went and got her... Total autism, of course it didn't work.

 

[ulrich]

I remember after s tony Robbin seminar I wrote down a list of goals and s list on what I wanted in a women then went and got her... Total autism, of course it didn't work.

I’m interested in this.

After plenty of years in self development, I have come to the conclusion that plenty of people treat it as a way to cope and rarely took serious action for their improvement.
In that sense I feel that Tony Robbins and those gurus profit from half commited people (just like gym does to non-commited bodybuilders)

Do you have a take on that? @Skills

Sorry for derailing.

 

[Skills]

I’m interested in this.

After plenty of years in self development, I have come to the conclusion that plenty of people treat it as a way to cope and rarely took serious action for their improvement.
In that sense I feel that Tony Robbins and those gurus profit from half commited people (just like gym does to non-commited bodybuilders)

Do you have a take on that? @Skills

Sorry for derailing.

no is not derailing is related to the post, he was talking about that is what he did, so i did it... I think legit i did accomplish the goal financial/money/biz etc.... Just like the op i realized not what i wanted.... And when it comes to women i wrote down everything i wanted in the girl goal, i am saying it does not work for the reasons every one is talking about in the op... It sounds good on paper is not practical specially for seducers...

 

[TomInHo]

Okay let’s get real here. Nobody wants to accept it but all relationships have an end date... whether you get with a quality woman or not

Not saying that you shouldn’t value relationships or be pessimistic about it but realize that one day that beautiful, supportive and sexy woman is going to leave you

You can have the best relationship management skills in the world, be super high value, be the perfect man but she will still leave. Either through death or with her own two feet. And there’s nothing you can really do about it

This fact of life is extremely important for seducers. Because, maybe it’s our massive egos but a lot of us think… oh she will never leave me because I have game and she's a quality woman

Pure BS

Because even if she stays with you physically there is a very high chance she will check out emotionally and sexually at some point or you yourself will grow bored of her

I mean use some logic here. If you meet your "quality woman" when you're both 30, in 25 years you'll both be 55. Do you really think that you can go from tons of abundance fucking hot women to now being committed to fucking a 55 year old?

There's a reason why older men leave their old wives and then get with younger women. If normies do it all the time then what makes us seducers think we will act different?

Now some of you will say, but it won't be about sex at that point and I can still fuck other women on the side. But then what is the point of being with your quality woman then? Why not let the relationship run it's natural course and then you both find someone that matches your current needs?

It's pretty crazy when I think about it. Because we have dudes in the community that talk all about forever commitment yet they can't be committed to anyone themselves. Almost like we don't pay attention to how we really behave and hold on to these odd ideals

I honestly think the best approach is to accept relationships for what they are. Enjoy them, make tons of dope memories, have lots of crazy passionate sex, maybe even pop out some mini me's with a woman or women you really click with.

And remember that no matter how quality your woman is now, at some point she may not be quality anymore.... and it's okay because there are plenty more quality women where she came from

 

[DoWhatWorks]

Thanks for contributing @West_Indian_Archie , always appreciate your perspective & learning from you on these further along topics.

To be clear, objective of my original post was to increase chance of an enjoyable LTR not length.

All things come to an end, and that’s part of what makes it enjoyable/beautiful in the 1st place.

It's pretty crazy when I think about it. Because we have dudes in the community that talk all about forever commitment yet they can't be committed to anyone themselves. Almost like we don't pay attention to how we really behave and hold on to these odd ideals

Lool very solid point that I think the RP is actually imploding with at the moment.

Although to play devil’s advocate people are fluid & change. My Facebook timeline is full of party girls who became “super mums” & guys change too.

Ultimately key is to focus on this because it’s something we can control:

And remember that no matter how quality your woman is now, at some point she may not be quality anymore.... and it's okay because there are plenty more quality women where she came from

Anyway any further conversation will probably be nitpicks/nuanced details.

thanks to everyone for making this one of the better thoughtful threads we’ve had here