Why are most guys not utterly obsessed with seduction?

[WierdDough]

This is a rather odd thing… if we were talking sales (for example) and some beginner guy came here asking how to get sales and then he got bombarded with discussions about value creation, profit margins, churn rate and product/market fit… then I am pretty sure he would be way more open to accept he is unsophisticated and commit to learn the nuances of the trade.

I think the fact that seduction puts you in a situation of trying to objectively gauge your sexual market value makes a lot of guys auto-reject.

You are talking about learning in general, I was referring to specific situations, which is how most normal people talk about sex and dating. People generally want a plan of action, just look at fitness for example. Finding a workout plan, or attending a session is enough for most people, they don´t want nor need deeper knowledge than that. Same is true for people finding the seduction community.

Btw, you dont think that "a situation of trying to objectively gauge.." sounds kinda wierd? I write shit like that all the time as well, but it´s not made for real world conversations. Which is my point.

 

[iceberg slim]

They would rather jump off a cliff than cold approach women. Let alone risk rejection or leading a woman.

I think that this is the core issue: there is a deep emotional aversion to cold approach built into men's brains--which we call approach anxiety. This aversion is so strong that it is enough to prevent most men from pursuing (or even considering) seduction. Only a small number are willing to confront this deep rooted fear, for whatever reason.

Why does this fear exist? I've heard various reasons like that our reptile brain thinks that women we don't know belong to rival alphas who will be violent to us if we approach their women. My guess is that it is linked to a well known and widely shared fear: public speaking. Humans are terrified of embarrassment/rejection, the reason for which seems clear: in our tribal past (the context in which we evolved as a species), if we did something really embarrassing and our tribe kicked us out, we were almost certainly dead at the hand of rival tribes or hungry predators. So there is a deep fear of cold approach linked to that which all organisms most want to avoid: death. Thus, almost no guys do it.

It's pretty silly if you think about it. An anachronistic emotion hanging around in our brains from times long gone is preventing guys from approaching the lovely female members of their species who are walking around looking cute all over the place. I think most guys deeply want to approach, but that desire is blocked by fear. Chase has written eloquently about this. And what the journey of seduction is, partially at least, is the discovery that there isn't much, if anything, to fear! It's really quite beautiful and amazing.

The second issue in my opinion is that, in addition to being blocked by fear, there is the significant challenge of actually getting good at the game. It takes a lot of time, energy and failure, which is enough to whittle down the guys who pursue seduction to an even smaller number. There are so many distractions (porn, social media, netflix, alcohol and drugs) and pressures (feeling the need to "fit in" to a social group, prove yourself through money, "success" and a nice car, be a "cool" invulnerable dude who can't admit that you need to work on your dating skills) that most guys don't have the time, energy, focus and self honesty required to actually get up and running with seduction.

 

[ulrich]

Btw, you dont think that "a situation of trying to objectively gauge.." sounds kinda wierd? I write shit like that all the time as well, but it´s not made for real world conversations. Which is my point.

Yeah, I get your point. But I hardly think we got many fresh out beginners reading this exact forum post.

If you’re really a newbie, you’re probably hanging around an Instagram page, Skool community or Girls Chase blog.
The forum audience is more sophisticated and I express myself accordingly.

This is a forum, at the end of the day… some of these discussions are meant to be high level…. otherwise, where would high level concepts be discussed?

 

[Will_V]

Also, being caught as someone who learns techniques to get laid is a social no no.

Yeah, this is a fact. People are simply uncomfortable with the idea of using techniques in relation to sex or relationships. Some of that is because of how it can be used negatively, and some of it has to do with the way that sex is framed by social norms and cultural reinforcement.

The way I see it, there's nothing weird per se about using technicalities in seduction - it's very mainstream at the moment to be applying high level techniques to sales, work culture, negotiation, self-improvement, and all sorts of other psychology-related things.

The problem is that the regulation of sex has always been the purview of society - even when that regulation appears to be a lack of regulation, the hidden frames and rules around it are still being managed carefully. Sexual opportunity is the main yoke that society has over men in general.

You're supposed to receive sex as a reward for being the man that society wants you to be. And when a culture liberates sex, it does so with a shift in power dynamics away from the average man. Sexual freedom is not the freedom for men to learn seduction, it's the freedom for women to have more fun out in the open, and in doing so, apply more pressure to the average man. It's a pressure-regulation mechanism.

Societies have always used women to control men. Women are by nature very conformist, especially in their public-facing life, and that's one of the reasons why matriarchal relationships are stable - society sets the rules, women follow them, and men obey the woman. It's very stable because the man is the only agent of uncertainty and possible disobedience/revolution, and if he's at the bottom of the hierarchy, it's hard for him to upset anything. And sexual freedom helps to achieve this by giving the woman a lot of power through the whole life cycle of the relationship, because the more helpless a dude feels due to the woman's relative power and choice, the more he's willing to accept terms that put him further at the bottom of the hierarchy.

But if that sexual freedom went the other way - a dude learning how to seduce and get more of what he wants without giving away his control - that wouldn't help society to control him, quite the opposite.

I find it very interesting that along with seduction, there is another taboo, which is using psychological techniques in relation to the development of your kids. It's funny because all relationships between people require using psychological techniques to manage, whether you are aware of them or not, but the two that are most heavily tabooed are the ones that relate to a man's influence over his immediate domain - his woman and his kids - and these areas - sexual culture and education - are also the ones that societies invest heavily in their control of.

 

[Skills]

A lot of the things mentioned has always been like that since the beginning:

- guys just want a girlfriend
- Guys don't do cold approached because aa and fear of rejection
- guys are awkward who come to pua
- it is a niche and underground
- learning tech is weird and for autist

has always been like that..... I just think tbh:

- more people have gone from cold approach to online and social media, were rejection is perceived easier than in person...
- guys are more into digital media vs being outside which has made guys a bit softer
- more easy access to porn
- guys are not getting the references experiences that other gens got with women...

-top guys don't see an incentive to post in public forums, they already got the validation, and there is barely money to be made if any and the ones that are passionate got bored or went into niche groups or just charging for info. with coaching or paid groups.... The innovators or ogs are too old now and retired, the new gen of "gurus" is just water down version/ kmart version of what the ogs too repackage into no calories to borderline bastardization...

- ogs are also time machine seducers that are repeating shit that does not even apply to today cause they are old and not really sarging or can't relate to new gen z (again no sarging).... nothing wrong with this, it happens and it happens in every industry..... Who follows Arnold fitness advice anymore...

- most good guys hang out in their own niche underground groups vs forum...
- red pill took a lot of the puas switching for $ and that was even more water down, deluded, bastardized and now destroyed (red pill is rip)
- all manospher is done, pua rip, blackpill rip, red pill rip, mgtow rip, mrm rip... they are all rip

Some people happy "more women for us", but imho is bad...... If women are not getting peak experiences with men at clubs, or online, is not good, cause they will just stop showing up in clubs, not log in online etc... And then again how many women is enough for the guys that are getting them, while the women not getting attractive men or settling, and guys not getting laid...

At the end of the day, we can control what we can control, worry about you getting better, and trying to follow and associate with guys that can help you or get you better..... No point in finding out why other men don't care about seduction other than you hope the few guys that are good stick around and don't banish...

With that being said we can say the same thing about:

- why guys no obsessed with money
- why guys no obsessed with fitness

etc... Commonality hard if you don't have right strategies or people give up, or people don't do what it takes or a combination and top guys in industry network with top guys not with newer people anyways...

With that being said tldr all manosphere movements have rip, due to youtube censorship after the rsd destruction, most seduction is demonetized, shadow banned, etc...

I almost forgot the new popular guys representing seduction for example in youtube are just repulsive, or not guys that "oh shit i wish i was like that guy" they are mostly repulsively or marketers and people can see through that, which does not help the cause...

^ guys using platform to trash other "seduction teachers" killing credibility of movement as a whole.... Everyone confuse on what "role masculine model" to follow, or imitate since "is he legit?" or "another scammer?" as a results of in fighting, scandals etc...

Shit forgot something information overload, so much info. overload and contradictory that can confuse people in general, but that is with every industry anyways...