Why Are Women With "Mostly" Male Friends Always Toxic

[Teevster]

I actually have no idea. I just know that women with almost only male friends are always terrible to manage in relationships (gladly, I never had to deal with such!). It could be a jealousy thing for many men (never knowing which of the male friends she is fucking, which will screw men up emotionally and ruin their frame). But to me, it is not the case - I am not easily jealous, nor am I in a position to be jealous since I am not in a relationship (nor seeing such a girl at the moment). However, from a "third person perspective" I have noticed that they express way more red flags. For instance, they mostly all do tons of drugs and/or drink a lot, smoke pot, have no real career or education, tend to suffer emotionally etc.

This is based on external observations, girls I had ONS with, and 2 girls I have recently had short-term fuck-friendships with (which means fucking max 5 times every 2 months or more lol).

Can someone please theorize around this correlation?

Some other observations:

Women who have mostly male friends have around:
33% Gay friends (not a problem - I also don't see women having gay friends as a red flag, in fact it is a positive thing sicne I tend to get along with them).
33% "Friends" they don't fuck, but who wants to fuck them (orbiters)
33% "Friends" they fuck.
1% You.

Feel free to share your thoughts, experiences and observations.

-Teevster

 

[HoofHearted]

I don't know.

 

[Destiny]

Girls like that always have issues, my personal theory is that guy friends are easier to get and more willing to put up with bs cause they wanna get in her pants.

Get more attention and drama that way.

 

[Teevster]

Girls like that always have issues, my personal theory is that guy friends are easier to get and more willing to put up with bs cause they wanna get in her pants.

Get more attention and drama that way.

I would agree. However, I think there is something deeper behind all this. I do not think this explains the full picture though. Will be curious to see what others think.

Thank you for your comment.

-Teevster

 

[Warped Mindless]

Sometimes they really like the attention and get a huge ego boost from the shit the guys do to compete with one another.

sometimes it’s because the woman is more masculine. Those women are usually pretty annoying.

 

[Rakehell]

Depends on if she’s tomboyish or girly. Girly chicks who only have guy friends have some low self esteem irt men.

So she surrounds herself with males to supply herself with that male attention and inflate her self esteem.

 

[ulrich]

Natural selection, I guess… girls who are less socially attuned struggle to make meaningful connections and build a friends circle with other women.

And most men invite these women in their social circles because, even if she is slightly crazy, it’s nice to have a female friend / potential planet to orbit.

So, I think male circles are basically a consolation prize for this kind of women… a place they will be accepted anyway.

 

[Teevster]

Depends on if she’s tomboyish

I don't think those girls exist. To me, they are most of the time closet lesbians who in their "transitional phase" may occasionally fuck some dudes. Noticed how there are not "late-20's" or"30's" version of tomboys? Probably because by then, they have come out of the closet.

I could be wrong. I haven't fucked many tomboys and the venues I go to don't seem to attract those (aside from gay bars, where these girls are mostly lesbians, or closet lesbians calling themselves "bisexual").

Girly chicks who only have guy friends have some low self esteem irt men.

So she surrounds herself with males to supply herself with that male attention and inflate her self esteem.

Yeah I have discussed this with some veterans. It is mostly all about validation. We have come to the conclusion that these girls generally are covert narcs.

-Teevster

 

[Teevster]

Natural selection, I guess… girls who are less socially attuned struggle to make meaningful connections and build a friends circle with other women.

And most men invite these women in their social circles because, even if she is slightly crazy, it’s nice to have a female friend / potential planet to orbit.

So, I think male circles are basically a consolation prize for this kind of women… a place they will be accepted anyway.

Probably correct. It does fit with the other things mentioned in this thread. I also think these women see other women as competition and thus in the way for their source of validation.

Validation seems to be the key word.

And a girl seeking that much validation is usually a bad bad deal.

-Teevster

 

[Zoro]

I've thought about this too. I think they lack the ability to get along with other females, which requires a level of intuitive social skills and self-esteem, so they hang out with men instead of working on the internal issues. Sometimes it looks like this, low self-esteem girls will befriend women below their "level" and thus those lower level women will get jealous, and then it starts a catty dynamic. Rather than deal with that, they get sick of it and turn away from female friends in general.

Women need to learn how to screen or else they let bad people into their life. Girls are like cats, if there is an internal problem they will start clawing at each other and it gets vicious.

I have my own hypothesis that girls with dogs are usually well adjusted, girls with cats are a bit off. Same goes for men, but the other way around. Men who can handle cats, understand women, men who spend time with dogs don't understand. I think it's because you have no know how to hold space and give space with cats, but dogs you can just rub them down and they are fine. Just like men and women. haha. It's just a fun thing I like to keep an eye out for, doesn't really hold up though.

 

[HoofHearted]

I just know that women with almost only male friends are always terrible to manage in relationships

I imagine this is true, but I have never been in a relationship with these girls (fucked a couple tho). So in what way?

So I still don't know, there's my admission of a lack of experience with it, for your consideration.

However, from knowing these girls somewhat intimately sometimes, I feel like the mark is being missed.

1. I noticed that, with these girls, the relationship to all but the most loser-ish (sorry ) of girls is highly adversarial. In other words, their female friends, if sparse, are usually girls that have extreme difficulty competing for men.

2. I noticed that these girls have overly ample supply of attention from men immediately available. And it leads to changes in behavior. IME fear of abandonment and of loss is a primary motivator in women, and having the reserve stable overly-full seems to remove the edge. Its true that the quality of the affect is different, she may not have any steak left, but she knows her fridge is overflowing with ham sandwiches and hot dogs. I think, moreso than other women who experience a lesser version of this, this affects behavior.

3. For these reasons, I can't help but see it as a competitive strategy. To some extent, I wonder why more women don't try it. If that's true, and her 'girl game' is more dialed up because she's in the game and she's winnin, I think by proxy I imagine more difficulties with her in a monogamous relationship.

For analogy: I do have experience with corollary. For a few years I mobbed around being either the only, or one of two, men in a large group of appropriately sized girls. The social benefits were huge, be it astounding other men, or meeting other women. I do think it's a winning strategy for men, if women naturally love you (they love me).

I would never, ever look to a woman for real friendship, though. If it's in her, that's just a supreme bonus. Male friendship is unparalleled but doesn't seem to reap the same immediate social rewards. So go hug each other.

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

I've talked to a few and some said they prefer male friends cuz they're less dramatic and less likely to betray or stab them in the back or talk shit about them

Do you think this is true or it's just bs? And how would this tie into validation if it's a valid reason?

 

[TheEcho]

I've talked to a few and some said they prefer male friends cuz they're less dramatic and less likely to betray or stab them in the back or talk shit about them

Do you think this is true or it's just bs? And how would this tie into validation if it's a valid reason?

Girl #10 in my journal was saying this. That girls are backbiting and so much drama. I don't know a ton about her, but she's a competitive salsa dancer and 90% sure her male partner is gay. Had one point where I joked about her being a dominatrix (she's learning a type of dance where she leads another girl) and she said she doesn't like being dominant in THAT setting (over IG, continents away, sadly). Not sure how much that helps fight the "masculine girl" theory lol. She also had gotten accepted into pharmacy school while I was with her in Portugal, so not a low-achiever.

Learning about female evolutionary patterns, I honestly would hate to be a woman with how complex and fraught female-female relationships are

 

[StrayDog]

I've talked to a few and some said they prefer male friends cuz they're less dramatic and less likely to betray or stab them in the back or talk shit about them

Do you think this is true or it's just bs? And how would this tie into validation if it's a valid reason?

BS bro. It's like someone saying all their exes are crazy. Riiight. Who's the common denominator? She has trouble holding her own in the sisterhood (for one reason or another) so goes for the low hanging fruit of male "friendships."

 

[StrayDog]

Women like this are on a spectrum with how aware they are of the social dynamics at play. Generally, they have learned this form of socialization from an early age as a response to atypical social circumstances. There are a number of reasons that would compel her towards this sort of lifestyle, and many of those reasons are not entirely in their control (at least at first). Whatever the reason this is the reality she comes to inhabit and all of the mechanisms are not entirely clear or conscious to her. Basically, it is what she has come to know, and she probably won't challenge her paradigm much as it has somewhat worked for her in many regards. So, while from the outside we might be able to see how this lifestyle of hers is setting her up for drama, many superficial/fickle "friendships" with tons of unresolved sexual tension, or rocky romantic relationships that have frequent power struggles, she may not be even able to see this for herself. She might be totally naive about it, or maybe somewhat aware but unsure of how to confront how it affects her life (or doesn't really care to). And then there are women who use these social dynamics for more calculated, narcissistic purposes. Either way, unless a man wants to have to constantly butt up against her deeply ingrained sense of social reality it is really a losing sum game for him.

 

[Rakehell]

I don't think those girls exist. To me, they are most of the time closet lesbians who in their "transitional phase" may occasionally fuck some dudes. Noticed how there are not "late-20's" or"30's" version of tomboys? Probably because by then, they have come out of the closet.

Slightly agree, tho i know some girls who fit the box of classically straight, lesbian feeling chicks (sometimes looking, [low haircut]), who are just uber dominant/ masculine. Still get boyfriends, sometimes those guys are even more masculine/dominant. Sometimes the guys are covert gay.

Could still be on the spectrum of sexuality, but don’t know a chick who isnt. Atleast a little bit lol.

These girls usually have some kind of reason, raised around boys, tough life, oldest sibling, dad raised her like a boy. Can usually find some tell. They aren’t comfortable being “girly”, and are damaged in a way. You can see glimpses of girliness, but it’s not their default personality.

^These chicks don’t always have just male friends tho. Not to my knowledge. Those are the girly girls.

Yeah I have discussed this with some veterans. It is mostly all about validation. We have come to the conclusion that these girls generally are covert narcs.

100% agree there tho, especially if shes super flirty with everybody.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

Richard Reeves, the guy getting a lot of press for Of Men and Boys says that because of how dating works from a female perspective - women block out a lot of male behavior as a cognitive survival method. He had some statistic on it. I think David Buss, the biggest evo psych, also has papers along the same lines. In order to cope, chicks often have to engage in willful blindness, or they are so deep in the behavior that they are blind to it.

Since neither of those guys are players, I very much doubt they considered all of the second and third order effects of that sort of behavior.

It's honestly hard for me to grasp all of the practical and theoretical implications.

 

[ulrich]

I've talked to a few and some said they prefer male friends cuz they're less dramatic and less likely to betray or stab them in the back or talk shit about them

Do you think this is true or it's just bs? And how would this tie into validation if it's a valid reason?

A part of truth, a part of pretend.

It is easier to hold friendships with men than with women.
Less drama, she doesn’t have to compete for attention, male friends tend to be more reliable (and arguably more valuable), they get male insights and support… she may even get orbiters.

Wether she does it because she prefers male friendships or because she can’t hold female friendships… that’s a case by case question.

 

[Chase]

I've talked to a few and some said they prefer male friends cuz they're less dramatic and less likely to betray or stab them in the back or talk shit about them

Girl #10 in my journal was saying this. That girls are backbiting and so much drama.

Same thing I have heard from girls who have only male friends too.

Things I have noticed about these types, at least from the ones I've known:

• They have sex with any guy, from nerdy guys with zero game to sexy chads. Loosest standards ever
  
  
• They're high testosterone and high in sensation-seeking. Tend to fuck ALL their friends
  
  
• They are "monogamously challenged"... if they ever try monogamy they describe it as "so hard" and it doesn't last
  
  
• They usually prefer LTRs with nice guys or nerdy guys, who they regard as "safer" and less likely to run off doing something else
  
  
• They do not really flirt or act sexy in a womanly way. Instead they just hang out with guys buddy-buddy and eventually hook up
  
  
• They don't pull it back with guys in relationships -- they will be just as buddy-buddy with these guys as they will unattached guys
  
  
• Other girls seem to roundly consider them threats. Probably because most girls are subtle, cautious, indirect, whereas these girls are just super comfortable around guys, really chummy with them, never dialing it down even if other women are possessive/staking a claim, etc.
  
  
• If you bring them around girls you are seeing, your girlfriends will IMMEDIATELY suspect you have slept with them (even if you have not)
  
  
• My guess is the backstabbing/drama comes from every normal girl looking at how chummy these girls are with guys and suspecting they have just slept with every guy, including the guys the other girls like, or the guys the other girls are dating (and much of the time, the suspicious girls will be right!)

I had a good female friend like this with a master's degree and who was also studying to pass the bar exam. She had a good corporate job and made good money. So it's not a rule that chicks like this will be bad at education or career. In fact all the ones I have known decently well have had good educations and careers -- they're a lot more masculine in prioritizing education/career, IME. Female entrepreneurs I have known have also been a lot more likely to be the high-T "all my friends are guys" types of girl.

The stuff I have seen from them that might look 'toxic' are:

1. They really cannot do monogamy. They just aren't built for it
   
   
2. They really are sleeping with all their guy friends. It's not just suspicion... they actually are! They are more open about it than any kind of girl, but they will still lie about it if they are dating a guy they think can't take it
   
   
3. They don't have the kind of normal womanly behavior most women engage in. I've refrained from dating any girls like this, but from what I've observed of their relationships it looks a lot like dating a dude with a vagina
   
   
4. There's really no sensual/flirtatious courtship build-up either. You just hang out with them until you're alone somewhere and they decide "Okay, we can fuck" and you do

I can't imagine wanting a relationship with a girl like this. But so long as you aren't trying to do an LTR where she's supposed to be monogamous to you, they can be pretty fun. You can talk to them about stuff you cannot talk to normal women about... e.g., my good female "all my friends are guys" friend thought it was so great, my involvement with the pickup community, back when I still talked about that sometimes with women... every 'normal' chick who knew about it hated it.

They're not really any good as wingwomen IME, just because other women seem to find them so threatening... the girl is SO chummy and familiar with you, how can any girl compete with THAT?

I do feel bad for the guys who hang around them hoping for relationships. They will actually hook up with those guys, then refuse to enter into an LTR. The guys get really confused. I have seen multiple of their "guys they are fucking" get really frustrated because they're trying to get monogamy from the girl but she's not having it. When they are telling you about how the guy is trying to get them to be monogamous but they told him they just want FWB it's kind of sadly comical, especially if you know the guy and see how salty he is day-to-day (and now you know why!).

So, I would say: if you want monogamy, they may seem toxic. Because they can't really do that.

Otherwise, probably fine I guess... but from what I have seen it's going to be like dating a dude.

Maybe some guys are into that. I always see guys complaining about why women are so frustrating, so annoying, why can't they be more direct, they don't want to put up with female BS anymore... these high-T chicks are possibly the ideal woman for such a man (* with a little asterisk that they won't be exclusive relationships. Depending on the guy, that price of admission might well be worth it for him to not have to put up with other womanly behaviors he can't stand).

Chase

 

[Chase]

Noticed how there are not "late-20's" or"30's" version of tomboys? Probably because by then, they have come out of the closet.

A lot of women also grow out of this. Only a few actually turn lesbian:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2d882y
The majority of the descriptions are the same: "At first I was so tomboy... then I discovered I liked [pink/skirts/heels/boys/etc.]."

I still am a tomboy at heart but I do wear my hair long now and I use make up and buy skirts and dresses.

I wore guys' clothes when I was in high school, and I've embraced fashion and makeup in my adult life. I get compliments on my makeup and clothes now.

I now embrace my 5 feet, 44kg frame with girly clothes and long hair. And make up!

Outwardly no one can really tell I used to be such a tomboy .. I eventually realized I liked boys attention and figured out that pretty dresses and tight shirts usually do the trick

Well on my own time I pretty much dress sloppy. I dont usually wear a bra, that kinda stuff. But I'm also a model! I would just say I've met my personal middle ground between tomboy and girly girl.

My tomboyishness has survived, but on a continuum. Some days I don't wear makeup, couldn't give a shit less about my hair, and can't be bothered to shave my legs to wear a skirt or dress. Then again, some days I take 2 hours to get ready just to go to Walmart.

That said, it was a bit of a transition to get comfortable with sex appeal, makeup, salons but like being feminine and I like men who appreciate those things.

Now I am a attractive woman ( at least my friends say so ;-)), wearing skirts and high heels, loving to look nice and ladylike.

Now at 28 years, I can't stop buying dresses and I love to wear makeup in all sorts of colors... and I looove my boots, tight jeans and jewellery.

Here's a pic of a former tomboy from that thread, who got married, presumably to a man.

A few of them talk about never having really grown out of it.

I still dress like a boy and prefer action movies, but now I make sex with boys too.

I'm still a tomboy, I wear guy clothes, have short hair and get mistaken for a man constantly. I am married and have 2 daughters, one of whom is super girly, loves dresses and princesses.

Tomboy here. Always was, always will be. At some point I was forced to start doing my hair and make-up because…society. To this day, you have to get married or buried to see me in a dress. I'm married and my husband can count on both hands the number of times he's seen me in a dress.

A handful went lesbo.

Still a tomboy. Also, a lesbian.

Also from that Reddit thread, relevant to the OP:

With the attention from boys, came the hate from other girls but I didn't care, I could never understand the way girls my age thought, I found it easier to talk to boys; no back stabbing, lying, two faced shit that is the female experience of secondary/high school.

I was really girly as a small child then grew to be very tomboyish. I currently don't have many girl friends because I can't relate to them.

Same as everyone else - I have limited female friends and still do not get along with 'girly-girls". Still relate to men easier and have more male friends.

I like the 'former tomboy girls' myself.

They're always bicurious, too. But every girl is, so...

Chase