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Why does the community dislike Caleb Jones / Blackdragon 2.0?

DoWhatWorks

Tribal Elder
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Messages
611
Genuine question.

Girlschase, Caleb Jones & occasionally old RSD is the only “PUA” content I look at.

Yes I get as pure seducers we frown on the online thing but if the outcome is the same can we really judge on the process behind it?

Also his content on how to navigate the western world as a man is 2nd to none.

For those unfamiliar he speaks about:

1) Non-monogomous relationships

2) Making high location independent income

3) Having multiple country options to live & legally lowering taxes

All good things - so why all the hate?
 
you miss 100% of the shots you don't take

trashKENNUT

Cro-Magnon Man
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Nov 20, 2012
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6,551
I am not sure.

So far, I heard he is liked as well.

z@c+
 

DoWhatWorks

Tribal Elder
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Messages
611
Hmm I think he gets both praise and backlash.

Not singling you out mate @Teevster just think you're a good person to get a perspective from as you've been vocal about this lol
 

Teevster

Tribal Elder
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Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,866
Ok I will lay it out for you in a summarized way.

1. It all start in around 2008. He was a new member on mASF where he right away started acting like a big time guru (despite coming out of nowhere). He then went on to argue with all the established posters (we have seen this behaviour here as well) in order to "push himself" up to a more guru-like status. What he was debating was also quite "absurd" - to give you an example : "you can't have sex with a girl on the first date" - which he smartly admitted being wrong about a few years later. Sadly, he was bringing this debate to every thread. This was the "first impression".

2. We eventually put that behind us when he took the initiative to start sedfast/next-asf/pua-zone. It was a good move from him, but many were sceptical about having him in charge... myself included.

3. That turned place turned eventually into a shit-show. When he had established the forum he promised to not be in charge of moderating (due to his past history with other members). But one day he just snapped and banned/or wanted to ban most of the elders.

4. This was also after he obnoxiously had to force his "non-monogamy" and "anti-marriage" agenda down the throats of all the elder (funny how he is now married...).

5. He did Ban me under the false (!) pretext that I had threatened him legally... (as a non-us citizen, who was back then a 22 y old student...). His claims were 100% constructed and false. Him constructing such insane lies to get "people out of his way" is just disgusting and is not very "Alpha 2.0". But it gives you an idea about "who he is".

6. A bug occurred on the forum giving all banned members access to the moderator forum. There I managed to comply 24 pages (!) of him trash talking the elders and making fun of banning them (or playing with the idea of banning them - he also wanted to ban Skills). As he claimed himself, he wanted to go "all Sauron". He had also removed some of the more level-headed moderators from their position.

7. He become aware of this leak and tempered people like Silvertree pleaded to get all those banned members back. Blackdragon had then become so unpopular that he had to leave his own forum, before giving it all up all-together.

1) Non-monogomous relationships

About this. Pay close attention to his use of semantics. If you look closely, his "MLTR's" looks more like fuckbuddies - especially when he advocates avoiding doing "boyfriend/girlfriend" things, which is a good rule if you want a no-string attached fuckbuddy, but not if you want to establish a deeper emotional bond, which I believe is foundational in "relationships".

Most of his material is a simplified version of the advice from oldschool relationship experts such MRsex4unyc and Zarathustra_Fi (A guy called Franco, not the one who used to post here).

His relationship advice is also flawed - simply "nexting" is not a good way to establish a healthy relationship. I will however admit that it is a great "last resort" technique.
Yes I get as pure seducers we frown on the online thing but if the outcome is the same can we really judge on the process behind it?

The outcome from his online game and a top tier cold-approach seducer ARE not the same (he himself was forced to admit that publicly). I will give BD guy credit for being transparent about his results. He said publicly that he was only getting a few lays occasionally.

A moderator from his own staff (DNYC) also admitted publicly that the quality of the girls he was seeing was very low (probably why he ended up marrying the hottest of them).


There are also 2 more things that just destroyed his credibility:

1. His desperate attempt at discrediting skilled seducers by claiming they were just "thrillhunters" (he called those "thrill of the hunt" players) who enjoys the thrill more than just getting laid (POS - pleasure of sex) - basically framing them as "overcomplicating shit" (not true... the results from skilled seducers proves the opposite). There were no other intent behind this but to discredit skilled people and make his "mediocre" method come out on top. The term "mediocrity game" is attributed to BD.

2. Going for escorts and calling it game (he pays for sex). That was like... the last push. But he started doing so after he had detached himself from the seduction community, so I won't hold that against him. He can do as he pleases with his own money and body. Just don't call banging hoes game.

This is a shortened summary. You may also check out his Drama with Krauser.

BlackDragon is a pathetic delusional cuck | Krauser PUA

I do not hold the fact that Blackdragon raised a kid not his own against him. In all honesty I think this was a good move by Blackdragon and shows he does have some positive sides after all. But the rest of the criticism I believe to be on point more or less.

How many suckers joined BlackDragon’s Loser Club? | Krauser PUA

Hope this clarifies,
Best
Teevster
 

PalmaSailor

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Nov 24, 2019
Messages
272
Ok I will lay it out for you in a summarized way.

1. It all start in around 2008. He was a new member on mASF where he right away started acting like a big time guru (despite coming out of nowhere). He then went on to argue with all the established posters (we have seen this behaviour here as well) in order to "push himself" up to a more guru-like status. What he was debating was also quite "absurd" - to give you an example : "you can't have sex with a girl on the first date" - which he smartly admitted being wrong about a few years later. Sadly, he was bringing this debate to every thread. This was the "first impression".

2. We eventually put that behind us when he took the initiative to start sedfast/next-asf/pua-zone. It was a good move from him, but many were sceptical about having him in charge... myself included.

3. That turned place turned eventually into a shit-show. When he had established the forum he promised to not be in charge of moderating (due to his past history with other members). But one day he just snapped and banned/or wanted to ban most of the elders.

4. This was also after he obnoxiously had to force his "non-monogamy" and "anti-marriage" agenda down the throats of all the elder (funny how he is now married...).

5. He did Ban me under the false (!) pretext that I had threatened him legally... (as a non-us citizen, who was back then a 22 y old student...). His claims were 100% constructed and false. Him constructing such insane lies to get "people out of his way" is just disgusting and is not very "Alpha 2.0". But it gives you an idea about "who he is".

6. A bug occurred on the forum giving all banned members access to the moderator forum. There I managed to comply 24 pages (!) of him trash talking the elders and making fun of banning them (or playing with the idea of banning them - he also wanted to ban Skills). As he claimed himself, he wanted to go "all Sauron". He had also removed some of the more level-headed moderators from their position.

7. He become aware of this leak and tempered people like Silvertree pleaded to get all those banned members back. Blackdragon had then become so unpopular that he had to leave his own forum, before giving it all up all-together.



About this. Pay close attention to his use of semantics. If you look closely, his "MLTR's" looks more like fuckbuddies - especially when he advocates avoiding doing "boyfriend/girlfriend" things, which is a good rule if you want a no-string attached fuckbuddy, but not if you want to establish a deeper emotional bond, which I believe is foundational in "relationships".

Most of his material is a simplified version of the advice from oldschool relationship experts such MRsex4unyc and Zarathustra_Fi (A guy called Franco, not the one who used to post here).

His relationship advice is also flawed - simply "nexting" is not a good way to establish a healthy relationship. I will however admit that it is a great "last resort" technique.


The outcome from his online game and a top tier cold-approach seducer ARE not the same (he himself was forced to admit that publicly). I will give BD guy credit for being transparent about his results. He said publicly that he was only getting a few lays occasionally.

A moderator from his own staff (DNYC) also admitted publicly that the quality of the girls he was seeing was very low (probably why he ended up marrying the hottest of them).


There are also 2 more things that just destroyed his credibility:

1. His desperate attempt at discrediting skilled seducers by claiming they were just "thrillhunters" (he called those "thrill of the hunt" players) who enjoys the thrill more than just getting laid (POS - pleasure of sex) - basically framing them as "overcomplicating shit" (not true... the results from skilled seducers proves the opposite). There were no other intent behind this but to discredit skilled people and make his "mediocre" method come out on top. The term "mediocrity game" is attributed to BD.

2. Going for escorts and calling it game (he pays for sex). That was like... the last push. But he started doing so after he had detached himself from the seduction community, so I won't hold that against him. He can do as he pleases with his own money and body. Just don't call banging hoes game.

This is a shortened summary. You may also check out his Drama with Krauser.

BlackDragon is a pathetic delusional cuck | Krauser PUA

I do not hold the fact that Blackdragon raised a kid not his own against him. In all honesty I think this was a good move by Blackdragon and shows he does have some positive sides after all. But the rest of the criticism I believe to be on point more or less.

How many suckers joined BlackDragon’s Loser Club? | Krauser PUA

Hope this clarifies,
Best
Teevster
I have followed his blog, but I wasn’t active in 2008 so wasn’t aware of his history.
That said, I’ve never been able to take any man seriously that wears a hairpiece.
And I think he’s a hypocrite because he’s obviously re married and he always advocates against that ‍♂️
 

DoWhatWorks

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 7, 2019
Messages
611
Thank you for the clear outline @Teevster!

Before I comment to give varying views - full disclaimer I don't want this to become a "DWW defends BD thread".

I just think as one of the last solution orientated communities out there we're missing a trick by dismissing him... That's all :)

Points 1 - 7 are mostly personality rather than content issues. I'll be the 1st to admit that he is very "American" in how he presents which may rub of on people the wrong way especially those based in Europe - so fair play there. I had no idea about that old forum context

Point 4 - Fair enough. With that said 2008 was 13 years ago and I think we can all agree we've acted foolishly in the past. To also be clear:

His marriage is openly non-monogamous with a water-tight prenup in place. His wife get's nothing if she leaves

My assumption is he was still working it all out back then and was anti-marriage. As he got older and realised most men do want to settle down in some form or fashion he worked out how to limit all the downsides of marriage.

@PalmaSailor - the above point addresses your comment.

Assuming his marriage set up is true - it baffles me how the community doesn't support this??

He's the only person I see who's giving a real valid solution to: How does a valuable man settle down in the west long term without getting fucked over?

Research show that the best family outcomes come from marriage but divorce courts aren't equitable. Only "alternative solutions" that even girlschase has failed to properly answer is:

1) One sided Monogomy - Even chase admitted that this just isn't sustainable in the west anymore

2) Serial Monogomy - Which leads to a lifetime of up and down marriage and divorces (not for me)

3) Cheat discreetly - Again not a long term model and isn't how I would want to live my life

To counter the common debate of "I don't want my woman sleeping with other men rah rah rah".

In this topic even the most experienced seducers seem to forget female psychology and give in to their emotions. Women are built differently. It's not abnormal for a girl to go 12 months without sex for no particular reason. They don't always need sex like we do.

So as a calculated risk I think non-monogomy is the best long term solution.

As even if the girl leaves, you simply fall back on your other options. Yes you could also just get good game and know that you can easily go out there and get a new girl but even the best seducers fall victim to "getting rusty". It's also a time sink that I'd rather have the option of avoiding.

To answer other points:

"About this. Pay close attention to his use of semantics. If you look closely, his "MLTR's" looks more like fuckbuddies - especially when he advocates avoiding doing "boyfriend/girlfriend" things"

This is an example of people not liking him only glossing over his content. His FB's don't do boyfriend / girlfriend things but his MLTR's can.

Here's a screenshot definition taken from his website: https://ibb.co/khCmL2H

"simply "nexting" is not a good way to establish a healthy relationship. I will however admit that it is a great "last resort" technique."

Again skimming over his content. Nexting is a last resort technique for him but we're all in agreement that it does work

"Most of his material is a simplified version of the advice from oldschool relationship experts such MRsex4unyc and Zarathustra_Fi (A guy called Franco, not the one who used to post here)."

Very fair point! I was unaware that he basically ripped other people's processes but to an extent we've all taken inspiration from each other. I openly say that skill's text guide personally took my game to the next level and use elements of it when advising other guys.

The outcome from his online game and a top tier cold-approach seducer ARE not the same (he himself was forced to admit that publicly). I will give BD guy credit for being transparent about his results. He said publicly that he was only getting a few lays occasionally.

We're in 100% agreement here

"A moderator from his own staff (DNYC) also admitted publicly that the quality of the girls he was seeing was very low (probably why he ended up marrying the hottest of them)"

Lol that's painful I didn't see that but IMO his current wife is attractive (albeit not my type)

so again if the end result is a positive outcome I think it's excessive to completely dismiss him.
 

Teevster

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,866
Points 1 - 7 are mostly personality rather than content issues. I'll be the 1st to admit that he is very "American" in how he presents which may rub of on people the wrong way especially those based in Europe - so fair play there. I had no idea about that old forum context

You asked why people disliked him - and few people dislike someone because of their material, but rather dislike them because of their behaviour. I can disagree with someone, even consider one's material crap without hating on the person or disliking them. You are changing the subject - it was initially "why is he disliked" - not "why do people disagree or dislike his material?". It is a different subject. That said I can crack down 90% of his seduction posts and debunk them to death. He is known to be a fake with very limited superficial knowledge.
His marriage is openly non-monogamous with a water-tight prenup in place. His wife get's nothing if she leaves

That's fine... although he was being a dick for years and years to guys getting married or wanting to get married. He was coming into their threads and flame/troll the living crap out of them. This is why it is seen as hypocrisy

Assuming his marriage set up is true - it baffles me how the community doesn't support this??

He's the only person I see who's giving a real valid solution to: How does a valuable man settle down in the west long term without getting fucked over?

Really - so he is the only one giving viable solutions on how to settle down? His material on the subject is some of the worst out there (it is a cheap ripoff of Mrsex4nyc). He has complained many times about facing drama and having to resort to "nexting". Why I never used nexting almost.

Nobody said we were against his marriage. Many of us have open relationships and open marriages you know? Also I personally don't see why one needs to get married - but to each their own.
1) One sided Monogomy - Even chase admitted that this just isn't sustainable in the west anymore

2) Serial Monogomy - Which leads to a lifetime of up and down marriage and divorces (not for me)

3) Cheat discreetly - Again not a long term model and isn't how I would want to live my life

Yeah well Pablo (Pelusita) and I do not favor this system. He (pelusita that is) has 4 REAL girlfriends (he has been with them for Years) and I had a functioning open relationship (yes I am a swinger...)
To counter the common debate of "I don't want my woman sleeping with other men rah rah rah".

In this topic even the most experienced seducers seem to forget female psychology and give in to their emotions. Women are built differently. It's not abnormal for a girl to go 12 months without sex for no particular reason. They don't always need sex like we do.

True but they need attention (from males) more than we need attention from women. whenever one understands this, one will become good with women. Most drama is caused from her desire for attention, or you having a weak frame (or just bad screening)

To counter the common debate of "I don't want my woman sleeping with other men rah rah rah".

I don't give two shits about women fucking other men. However I prefer if that guy she fucks can bring a girl over for me.

So as a calculated risk I think non-monogomy is the best long term solution.

Nothing lasts for ever in seduction - or at least nothing is guaranteed. I prefer not to think about any long term solutions in regards to pick up and seduction. That girl you though would be the mother of your children may dump you tomorow. You do not know. future projecting on long-term deals is generally a bad idea. The pandemic has though me this lesson - as a matter of fact I have been stuck in my home since october (can't go out - can't even go on Tinder dates... can see my fuck buddies - which I more or less lost due to the pandemic). It is a sad situation, but I learned the valuable lesson is to not think of any long term solution.

But from your perspective I 100% agree with you. Non-monogamy is the best long term solution, but it is not always ideal to raise children in that setting though.

But the best longterm solution is col approach pick up. Less hassle, less drama, more freedom - more money.
This is an example of people not liking him only glossing over his content. His FB's don't do boyfriend / girlfriend things but his MLTR's can.

Here's a screenshot definition taken from his website: https://ibb.co/khCmL2H

I WAS very familiar with his material. I had to endure his crap for years. Maybe he has changed his opinions and realized he was wrong for the 100th time (which is fine, problem was, he had to make us all endure his dogma for years).

The way he has discussed his relationships is not synonymous with her being his girlfriend. That was at least back in the days (i.e. last i had to endure his crap was in 2017 i think).
Again skimming over his content. Nexting is a last resort technique for him but we're all in agreement that it does work

Ah he has finally seen the light! I had to fight a living hell to convince him that it was! Good he is learning at last (simply took 10 years). Another "Teevs was right" moment :D

Lol that's painful I didn't see that but IMO his current wife is attractive (albeit not my type)

I agree. Probably why he wifed her up. :D
 
Last edited:

PalmaSailor

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Nov 24, 2019
Messages
272
Thank you for the clear outline @Teevster!

Before I comment to give varying views - full disclaimer I don't want this to become a "DWW defends BD thread".

I just think as one of the last solution orientated communities out there we're missing a trick by dismissing him... That's all :)

Points 1 - 7 are mostly personality rather than content issues. I'll be the 1st to admit that he is very "American" in how he presents which may rub of on people the wrong way especially those based in Europe - so fair play there. I had no idea about that old forum context

Point 4 - Fair enough. With that said 2008 was 13 years ago and I think we can all agree we've acted foolishly in the past. To also be clear:

His marriage is openly non-monogamous with a water-tight prenup in place. His wife get's nothing if she leaves

My assumption is he was still working it all out back then and was anti-marriage. As he got older and realised most men do want to settle down in some form or fashion he worked out how to limit all the downsides of marriage.

@PalmaSailor - the above point addresses your comment.

Assuming his marriage set up is true - it baffles me how the community doesn't support this??

He's the only person I see who's giving a real valid solution to: How does a valuable man settle down in the west long term without getting fucked over?

Research show that the best family outcomes come from marriage but divorce courts aren't equitable. Only "alternative solutions" that even girlschase has failed to properly answer is:

1) One sided Monogomy - Even chase admitted that this just isn't sustainable in the west anymore

2) Serial Monogomy - Which leads to a lifetime of up and down marriage and divorces (not for me)

3) Cheat discreetly - Again not a long term model and isn't how I would want to live my life

To counter the common debate of "I don't want my woman sleeping with other men rah rah rah".

In this topic even the most experienced seducers seem to forget female psychology and give in to their emotions. Women are built differently. It's not abnormal for a girl to go 12 months without sex for no particular reason. They don't always need sex like we do.

So as a calculated risk I think non-monogomy is the best long term solution.

As even if the girl leaves, you simply fall back on your other options. Yes you could also just get good game and know that you can easily go out there and get a new girl but even the best seducers fall victim to "getting rusty". It's also a time sink that I'd rather have the option of avoiding.

To answer other points:



This is an example of people not liking him only glossing over his content. His FB's don't do boyfriend / girlfriend things but his MLTR's can.

Here's a screenshot definition taken from his website: https://ibb.co/khCmL2H



Again skimming over his content. Nexting is a last resort technique for him but we're all in agreement that it does work



Very fair point! I was unaware that he basically ripped other people's processes but to an extent we've all taken inspiration from each other. I openly say that skill's text guide personally took my game to the next level and use elements of it when advising other guys.



We're in 100% agreement here



Lol that's painful I didn't see that but IMO his current wife is attractive (albeit not my type)

so again if the end result is a positive outcome I think it's excessive to completely dismiss him.
@Teevster

“His marriage is openly non-monogamous with a water-tight prenup in place. His wife get's nothing if she leaves”

Honestly I’m not swallowing that.

A contract is the only thing that a marriage really is.

if it’s “open” and there’s a “watertight pre nup” what on earth was the point in doing it?

I think he’s strayed off the piste, is still blue pill but is still trying to monetise what he’s got - which incidentally hes quite entitled to do.
 

Chase

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,170
@DoWhatWorks,

Points 1 - 7 are mostly personality rather than content issues. I'll be the 1st to admit that he is very "American" in how he presents which may rub of on people the wrong way especially those based in Europe - so fair play there. I had no idea about that old forum context

I’ve no personal gripes with BlackDragon. We’ve even done a few minor collaborations over the years.

That said, I'm American, and it’s pretty obvious why he got so many (mostly American) guys’ hackles up over the years. When he erupted onto mASF, I already wasn’t on there much, but I returned to discover the whole forum in an uproar over some upstart new member named ‘BlackDragon’ who was rankling everyone.

(I was also frankly shocked at how rapidly he’d progressed through the ranks and become a Tribal Elder there. IIRC a lot of folks questioned that and wanted his rank walked back, but I don’t know all the details on that)

I checked out some of his threads but they weren’t things I was concerned with. A few times he posted on my threads, usually taking a sort of lecturer tone or trying to say I was wrong or that I was on the right path but actually the full realization was (some BlackDragon thing). Typically this was phrased in a kind of “just helping you out so you can know better” way, like what naturalmikey and other guys have done on here to rankle members and try to leapfrog up the ranks. Keep in mind I had a lot of seniority on BD when he was doing this, so this is not the tone he should have been taking with me. Each time it happened I either just ignored those comments or sidelined them quickly, not wishing to engage with him on an Internet forum (I saw how frustrated everyone else was with him).

I never joined NextASF. Never had any direct issues with him aside from the occasional irritating mASF “coming on your thread, acting like the guru!” shenanigans. My relationship with him since mASF has been cordial. He's recommended GC a few times, and I like a few of the things he's posted (I did actually like the "pleasure of sex vs. thrill of the hunt" distinction. Most good PUAs are necessarily going to fall into the thrill-of-the-hunt category more than not).

At one point there was a small contingent of higher up guys on our forum here who became BlackDragon acolytes. They started sugar dating, and also trying to juggle BlackDragon-esque relationships, which based on my observations did not seem to fare so hot. To me though how thoroughly they’d switched to his stuff, and their seniority on the Boards, seemed a fairly clear threat to the integrity of the Boards. At the time I worried it might shift to being a more open position for these members, then start to spread, and I’d end up presiding over a weird sugar-dating polyamory forum that appealed to neither most guys interested in seduction nor to me. That wasn’t anything BlackDragon directly did, but I did consider it “bad BlackDragon influence” and was annoyed to have to deal with it (the issue is all resolved now).

On a few more specific remarks:

He's the only person I see who's giving a real valid solution to: How does a valuable man settle down in the west long term without getting fucked over?

I see you haven't read much on GC!

A few resources I'll point your way to:





You might also enjoy Ricardus's 10-part relationship series; Part 1 is here.

Research show that the best family outcomes come from marriage but divorce courts aren't equitable. Only "alternative solutions" that even girlschase has failed to properly answer is:

1) One sided Monogomy - Even chase admitted that this just isn't sustainable in the west anymore

Where did I say that? Got a link?

2) Serial Monogomy - Which leads to a lifetime of up and down marriage and divorces (not for me)

Even in the divorce-happy West, 50% of marriages never end.

And the actual divorce rate is declining.

Yes, it's harder now to maintain things than it was in the past, but "it's gotten harder" does not equal "it's gotten totally impossible or even unlikely!"

For further information, see here:


To counter the common debate of "I don't want my woman sleeping with other men rah rah rah".

In this topic even the most experienced seducers seem to forget female psychology and give in to their emotions. Women are built differently. It's not abnormal for a girl to go 12 months without sex for no particular reason. They don't always need sex like we do.

I had this conversation in another public thread on the Boards a while back, I believe, but don't recall which one.

Not wanting to write the whole thing out again, I will just say I've seen a lot of guys in open marriages, and I know how it goes, typically with an early idyllic period where the guy is shagging a bunch and the woman stays loyal, because it takes a long time for most non-nympho chicks to decide they want another man.

But sooner or later they do find a guy they want, and start shagging him, and if he is shagging them well, they develop emotions for him, and the husband, sensing the shift in his wife's emotions away from him to some other unknown man, insensibly begins to chase. The more he chases, the more powerful the wife feels, and the more she starts to enjoy her position. Meanwhile the husband becomes increasingly disempowered and loses his ability to hook up with desirable new women, getting fewer and lower quality lays when he does.

I've seen it unfold enough times that it's basically a hard-coded nigh-inevitable open marriage pattern at this point if you ask me.

Maybe we could call it the 10-Year Open Marriage Law.

By the 10th year of your open marriage, you will be totally cucked, chasing after a wife who holds all the power in the relationship, feeling depressed.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but they're few and far between. I've yet to encounter one.

(every now and then I'll meet a guy in a 15- or 20-year-old open marriage, or some such, and he will insist it's going great. And I'll ask, "Nice. You laying a lot of fresh tail?" and he'll say well, you know, occasionally. And you can tell he probably hasn't been laid a new chick in quite a while. So then I'll ask, "Your wife though, seeing only you?" and he'll say you know, she's got a guy she sees, but it's nice, some nights I get some peace and quiet and I can read or work on my hobbies. And then you realize this guy is deep in the cope, totally cucked, and you feel kinda bad for him, but don't want to say anything too mean because at this point he's made his bed, and he and the other dudes in it are simply going to have to lay in it)

Anyway, I don't want to slam the open marriage / polyamory thing too hard, because I know there's guys who dig it.

But I also don't want to see it spreading on here as "the panacea to modern relationship ails!" because that it definitely ain't.

Chase
 

PalmaSailor

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Nov 24, 2019
Messages
272
@DoWhatWorks,



I’ve no personal gripes with BlackDragon. We’ve even done a few minor collaborations over the years.

That said, I'm American, and it’s pretty obvious why he got so many (mostly American) guys’ hackles up over the years. When he erupted onto mASF, I already wasn’t on there much, but I returned to discover the whole forum in an uproar over some upstart new member named ‘BlackDragon’ who was rankling everyone.

(I was also frankly shocked at how rapidly he’d progressed through the ranks and become a Tribal Elder there. IIRC a lot of folks questioned that and wanted his rank walked back, but I don’t know all the details on that)

I checked out some of his threads but they weren’t things I was concerned with. A few times he posted on my threads, usually taking a sort of lecturer tone or trying to say I was wrong or that I was on the right path but actually the full realization was (some BlackDragon thing). Typically this was phrased in a kind of “just helping you out so you can know better” way, like what naturalmikey and other guys have done on here to rankle members and try to leapfrog up the ranks. Keep in mind I had a lot of seniority on BD when he was doing this, so this is not the tone he should have been taking with me. Each time it happened I either just ignored those comments or sidelined them quickly, not wishing to engage with him on an Internet forum (I saw how frustrated everyone else was with him).

I never joined NextASF. Never had any direct issues with him aside from the occasional irritating mASF “coming on your thread, acting like the guru!” shenanigans. My relationship with him since mASF has been cordial. He's recommended GC a few times, and I like a few of the things he's posted (I did actually like the "pleasure of sex vs. thrill of the hunt" distinction. Most good PUAs are necessarily going to fall into the thrill-of-the-hunt category more than not).

At one point there was a small contingent of higher up guys on our forum here who became BlackDragon acolytes. They started sugar dating, and also trying to juggle BlackDragon-esque relationships, which based on my observations did not seem to fare so hot. To me though how thoroughly they’d switched to his stuff, and their seniority on the Boards, seemed a fairly clear threat to the integrity of the Boards. At the time I worried it might shift to being a more open position for these members, then start to spread, and I’d end up presiding over a weird sugar-dating polyamory forum that appealed to neither most guys interested in seduction nor to me. That wasn’t anything BlackDragon directly did, but I did consider it “bad BlackDragon influence” and was annoyed to have to deal with it (the issue is all resolved now).

On a few more specific remarks:



I see you haven't read much on GC!

A few resources I'll point your way to:





You might also enjoy Ricardus's 10-part relationship series; Part 1 is here.



Where did I say that? Got a link?



Even in the divorce-happy West, 50% of marriages never end.

And the actual divorce rate is declining.

Yes, it's harder now to maintain things than it was in the past, but "it's gotten harder" does not equal "it's gotten totally impossible or even unlikely!"

For further information, see here:




I had this conversation in another public thread on the Boards a while back, I believe, but don't recall which one.

Not wanting to write the whole thing out again, I will just say I've seen a lot of guys in open marriages, and I know how it goes, typically with an early idyllic period where the guy is shagging a bunch and the woman stays loyal, because it takes a long time for most non-nympho chicks to decide they want another man.

But sooner or later they do find a guy they want, and start shagging him, and if he is shagging them well, they develop emotions for him, and the husband, sensing the shift in his wife's emotions away from him to some other unknown man, insensibly begins to chase. The more he chases, the more powerful the wife feels, and the more she starts to enjoy her position. Meanwhile the husband becomes increasingly disempowered and loses his ability to hook up with desirable new women, getting fewer and lower quality lays when he does.

I've seen it unfold enough times that it's basically a hard-coded nigh-inevitable open marriage pattern at this point if you ask me.

Maybe we could call it the 10-Year Open Marriage Law.

By the 10th year of your open marriage, you will be totally cucked, chasing after a wife who holds all the power in the relationship, feeling depressed.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but they're few and far between. I've yet to encounter one.

(every now and then I'll meet a guy in a 15- or 20-year-old open marriage, or some such, and he will insist it's going great. And I'll ask, "Nice. You laying a lot of fresh tail?" and he'll say well, you know, occasionally. And you can tell he probably hasn't been laid a new chick in quite a while. So then I'll ask, "Your wife though, seeing only you?" and he'll say you know, she's got a guy she sees, but it's nice, some nights I get some peace and quiet and I can read or work on my hobbies. And then you realize this guy is deep in the cope, totally cucked, and you feel kinda bad for him, but don't want to say anything too mean because at this point he's made his bed, and he and the other dudes in it are simply going to have to lay in it)

Anyway, I don't want to slam the open marriage / polyamory thing too hard, because I know there's guys who dig it.

But I also don't want to see it spreading on here as "the panacea to modern relationship ails!" because that it definitely ain't.

Chase
Yeah you summed it up.

He’ll get cucked. Then he’ll find out that laws have changed and some judge kicks out that pre up retrospectively.

So he’ll get wiped out as well.

you only have to look at the hamsteridation of the situation. He’s signed a contract to protect him from the consequences of another contract which he didn’t have to sign in the first place.

She wanted the marriage, and the whole thing is in her frame.
 

Skills

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Genuine question.

Girlschase, Caleb Jones & occasionally old RSD is the only “PUA” content I look at.

Yes I get as pure seducers we frown on the online thing but if the outcome is the same can we really judge on the process behind it?

Also his content on how to navigate the western world as a man is 2nd to none.

For those unfamiliar he speaks about:

1) Non-monogomous relationships

2) Making high location independent income

3) Having multiple country options to live & legally lowering taxes

All good things - so why all the hate?

I like some of the content of bd, find it useful... He is not good at seduction and not even that good at online dating as a teacher (i bought his online dating book and his 3 hours to sex were awful when it comes to game, i am surprised it worked for people, when i was learning online set me back, though, i use some adaptation of his content that can be make more sense game wise...)

PE way of dealing with women was better with gentle correction, i however brought up the point that nexting can be used (and works) as last reasort, but in my experience the girls i had to next were DRAMA women, and looking back on those women, they should have never made it as main or rotation, so more of a SCREENING issue, in fairness he does not believe about screening but a system of promoting or demoting..

Bd had a weird way of addressing disagreements ( in fairness i see a lot of community guys that don't know how to disagree without passive aggressive behavior, taking shit out of context and the likes) is just a horrible way to argue with someone, so the pattern would go like this:

1.- discussion on topic
2.- bd would take the point totally out of context
3.- discuss shit out of context in a weird way seeming totally logical, level headed and rational.
4.- person gets annoyed and upset
5.- he says this is my last response to discussion (under the no drama motto). For me this is a red flag on how he is on discussions with women..
6.- he totally was part of mishandling the nextasf forum that was part of his destruction, with some sauron crap incident....
7.- most of alpha 2.0 is this is what makes BD happy let me backward rationalize it in a way that will make everyone else happy, same with his online game stuff...
8.- his i don't pay or will ever pay for prostitutes, but i do sugar daddy dating BUT I GET IT IN AT A DISCOUNT, so since i got it at a discount and the girl somewhat likes me is game, is total horshit, real sugardaddy game is done by steve jabba.... (this is a total consequence of never mastering cold approach style game)

^ But i am thankful for bd, he gave us a place to post similar to what chase did here with skillseducers, he totally helped me as well as teevester, nwp, etc... dealing with the maddona/whore complex which is the problem most naturals have, societal programming and the likes... He also helped many guys and did a better job than the red pill guys... and his advice is better for those divorce out of marriage, shaded guys than what is going on in the red pill now... I love his book unchained man, i recommend it, also i am glad he is on youtube (i actually recommended this to him as well as to go audiobook)... Also his balance life, biz advice is good... I personally like bd and think he is good for the community, i would learn game, even online somewhere else tbh....

most of his dislike steams from the PAST, a lot of new guys are not privy to past beefs and problems, and some seducers hold grudges can't let go...
 
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Teevster

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Honestly I’m not swallowing that.

A contract is the only thing that a marriage really is.
Yeah that's my understanding of marriage too. I mean what is a marriage if not a contract of some sort?
 

Teevster

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PE way of dealing with women was better with gentle correction, i however brought up the point that nexting can be used (and works) as last reasort, but in my experience the girls i had to next were DRAMA women, and looking back on those women, they should have never made it as main or rotation, so more of a SCREENING issue, in fairness he does not believe about screening but a system of promoting or demoting..


AMEN.
 

Teevster

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he totally helped me as well as teevester, nwp, etc... dealing with the maddona/whore complex which is the problem most naturals have, societal programming and the likes..

Wait? did BD help me with dealing with madonna whore complex? Did I ever have that? I am probably the last one to have ever had M/W complex. I had the W/W complex (I used to see women as pure sex addicts all the time, and I am still somewhat recovering from that weird bias).

Regarding societal programming, If I am not mistaken, BD wasn't writing much "sociology".
 

DoWhatWorks

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You asked why people disliked him - and few people dislike someone because of their material, but rather dislike them because of their behaviour

Completely fair, I wasn’t intentionally changing the subject or moving the goal posts just asking a follow up question out of curiosity

appreciate the thorough reply again

He was coming into their threads and flame/troll the living crap out of them. This is why it is seen as hypocrisy

Wasn’t aware of this! Seems like a lot of the dislike is from previous behaviour which is justified


Yeah well Pablo (Pelusita) and I do not favor this system. He (pelusita that is) has 4 REAL girlfriends (he has been with them for Years) and I had a functioning open relationship (yes I am a swinger...)

Open relationship & multiple girlfriends is definitely a valid option. I ask this from a perspective of what will 40 yr old me potentially want vs 24 year old me. There’s a possibility that I just do the gf thing for the rest of my life but I’d be an outlier (which a lot us here are)


Nothing lasts for ever in seduction - or at least nothing is guaranteed. I prefer not to think about any long term solutions in regards to pick up and seduction. That girl you though would be the mother of your children may dump you tomorow.

Agreed. In the back of my mind to me posting this was thinking when you get older how do you maximise your chance of success with raising families etc in the west. Chase has done a great job of outlining content so I’ll refer to there.

Also do you know if “mrsexnyc” content can still be found?

A quick google got me nothing but if BD is a cheap rip off I’m humble enough to accept it and get the best info straight from the source! :)

@Chase thanks for the thorough response! As per usual you’ve covered this subject and I haven’t got round to it yet (despite reading a lot of your material!)

Also interesting around men getting cucked in their own marriages. We saw this with Will Smith and it’s given me food for thought.

I’d prefer to learn from the mistakes of others wherever possible. I’ll also try and dig out the quote when I answer thoroughly to your reply :)


Also his balance life, biz advice is good... I personally like bd and think he is good for the community, i would learn game, even online somewhere else tbh....

Very fair and balanced overview @Skills. Agreed there’s better game content elsewhere but his overall life & biz advice is solid.

For me BD is great as discussing “process & systems” behind game but I get the technical detail, artistry & finesse from places like GC.
 

Skills

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Wait? did BD help me with dealing with madonna whore complex? Did I ever have that? I am probably the last one to have ever had M/W complex. I had the W/W complex (I used to see women as pure sex addicts all the time, and I am still somewhat recovering from that weird bias).

Regarding societal programming, If I am not mistaken, BD wasn't writing much "sociology".


i said that you, jws, bd, nwp, indirectly helped me with madonna/whore complex...
 

kristian

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@DoWhatWorks,



I’ve no personal gripes with BlackDragon. We’ve even done a few minor collaborations over the years.

That said, I'm American, and it’s pretty obvious why he got so many (mostly American) guys’ hackles up over the years. When he erupted onto mASF, I already wasn’t on there much, but I returned to discover the whole forum in an uproar over some upstart new member named ‘BlackDragon’ who was rankling everyone.

(I was also frankly shocked at how rapidly he’d progressed through the ranks and become a Tribal Elder there. IIRC a lot of folks questioned that and wanted his rank walked back, but I don’t know all the details on that)

I checked out some of his threads but they weren’t things I was concerned with. A few times he posted on my threads, usually taking a sort of lecturer tone or trying to say I was wrong or that I was on the right path but actually the full realization was (some BlackDragon thing). Typically this was phrased in a kind of “just helping you out so you can know better” way, like what naturalmikey and other guys have done on here to rankle members and try to leapfrog up the ranks. Keep in mind I had a lot of seniority on BD when he was doing this, so this is not the tone he should have been taking with me. Each time it happened I either just ignored those comments or sidelined them quickly, not wishing to engage with him on an Internet forum (I saw how frustrated everyone else was with him).

I never joined NextASF. Never had any direct issues with him aside from the occasional irritating mASF “coming on your thread, acting like the guru!” shenanigans. My relationship with him since mASF has been cordial. He's recommended GC a few times, and I like a few of the things he's posted (I did actually like the "pleasure of sex vs. thrill of the hunt" distinction. Most good PUAs are necessarily going to fall into the thrill-of-the-hunt category more than not).

At one point there was a small contingent of higher up guys on our forum here who became BlackDragon acolytes. They started sugar dating, and also trying to juggle BlackDragon-esque relationships, which based on my observations did not seem to fare so hot. To me though how thoroughly they’d switched to his stuff, and their seniority on the Boards, seemed a fairly clear threat to the integrity of the Boards. At the time I worried it might shift to being a more open position for these members, then start to spread, and I’d end up presiding over a weird sugar-dating polyamory forum that appealed to neither most guys interested in seduction nor to me. That wasn’t anything BlackDragon directly did, but I did consider it “bad BlackDragon influence” and was annoyed to have to deal with it (the issue is all resolved now).

On a few more specific remarks:



I see you haven't read much on GC!

A few resources I'll point your way to:





You might also enjoy Ricardus's 10-part relationship series; Part 1 is here.



Where did I say that? Got a link?



Even in the divorce-happy West, 50% of marriages never end.

And the actual divorce rate is declining.

Yes, it's harder now to maintain things than it was in the past, but "it's gotten harder" does not equal "it's gotten totally impossible or even unlikely!"

For further information, see here:




I had this conversation in another public thread on the Boards a while back, I believe, but don't recall which one.

Not wanting to write the whole thing out again, I will just say I've seen a lot of guys in open marriages, and I know how it goes, typically with an early idyllic period where the guy is shagging a bunch and the woman stays loyal, because it takes a long time for most non-nympho chicks to decide they want another man.

But sooner or later they do find a guy they want, and start shagging him, and if he is shagging them well, they develop emotions for him, and the husband, sensing the shift in his wife's emotions away from him to some other unknown man, insensibly begins to chase. The more he chases, the more powerful the wife feels, and the more she starts to enjoy her position. Meanwhile the husband becomes increasingly disempowered and loses his ability to hook up with desirable new women, getting fewer and lower quality lays when he does.

I've seen it unfold enough times that it's basically a hard-coded nigh-inevitable open marriage pattern at this point if you ask me.

Maybe we could call it the 10-Year Open Marriage Law.

By the 10th year of your open marriage, you will be totally cucked, chasing after a wife who holds all the power in the relationship, feeling depressed.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but they're few and far between. I've yet to encounter one.

(every now and then I'll meet a guy in a 15- or 20-year-old open marriage, or some such, and he will insist it's going great. And I'll ask, "Nice. You laying a lot of fresh tail?" and he'll say well, you know, occasionally. And you can tell he probably hasn't been laid a new chick in quite a while. So then I'll ask, "Your wife though, seeing only you?" and he'll say you know, she's got a guy she sees, but it's nice, some nights I get some peace and quiet and I can read or work on my hobbies. And then you realize this guy is deep in the cope, totally cucked, and you feel kinda bad for him, but don't want to say anything too mean because at this point he's made his bed, and he and the other dudes in it are simply going to have to lay in it)

Anyway, I don't want to slam the open marriage / polyamory thing too hard, because I know there's guys who dig it.

But I also don't want to see it spreading on here as "the panacea to modern relationship ails!" because that it definitely ain't.

Chase
@Chase how does this apply to one-way monogamous relationships where you can stray a little while she stays committed? Our rules are, she doesn't want anybody else, and I am not going to "fall in love" or have feelings for anyone else. Do you know people that have been on these kinds of relationships and what are the pitfalls and things to consider?

Right now, the thing I've found out is that as long as I tend to her emotional and sexual needs, I am good. On the surface, I am the same guy as I've been in conventional relationships - and even better at devoting myself to her. That's because I enjoy being with her rather than afraid of losing my "only option". She also feels desired because she knows that I genuinely prefer her over other women. It is not easy tho, because I have to keep my feelings "in check" with these other women and will put her above anything else - as long as I can see other women. We also keep this relationship a secret from other people because we don't want the pressure and/or judgment from our peers.

And one more thing: This seems to work because I am always willing to go no matter how much I love her and she senses that.

But I never do meet anyone like us to share ideas with and we are on our fourth year in our relationship so I would love to know your thoughts on this.
 

DoWhatWorks

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Where did I say that? Got a link?

What's the endgame for a playboy

"The deeper I explored one-sided monogamous relationships, though, the more I ran into a big issue: no matter how happy the girl was with you, no matter how ecstatic she was about the relationship, the connection, the sex, the future she envisioned with you, everybody around her ganged up on her to tell her it was wrong.

...

I started to realize as I went that a society was never going to allow the women within it to enter into a relationship structure that society did not approve."


Now admittedly you don't say in exact words "One-sided monogomy doesn't work long term in the west" but your comparisons to Africa, South East Asia cultures and the struggle of doing it in the West heavily implies that... I'm open to stand corrected though!

Also as I know SS conversations can easily go left lol - I want to continually iterate that I just enjoy these conversations to sharpen my thinking and "life game plan" I'm not critiquing for the sake of critiquing :) I also appreciate that this has gone off topic from the original Q too.

I also get that this subject gets very contentious so you're probably hesitant to share techniques and too much information publicly as the feminist backlash would be horrendous. Feel free to pm in this instance or refer me to a product if this is something you package and sell :)

Have you known guys to pull this off in family settings within the west?

I suspect what happens is that the man flounders discreetly and the woman turns a blinds eye/ doesn't ask questions because she's being provided for to a high standard of living... but that's just a guess.

As for me I'm only considering marriage (whether in long term monogamy or non-monogamy) because it's consistently shown to produce favourable outcomes for children and I may have them in the future

Also interested in your response to @kristian's question!
 

Chase

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@PalmaSailor,

Yeah, I don't get why you'd sign a marriage contract with an "ironclad prenup" with an open relationship partner either.

The Western court system has made a practice out of invalidating prenups. Also, depending on the jurisdiction, many prenups expire after a certain marriage duration, too. I know in New York it used to be 15 years... so if you're the guy who's only started realizing 15 years into his open marriage that he's gotten totally cucked, congratulations, you no longer have a prenup to protect you.


Check out reason #3:

Contracts Made Under Duress: Mental and physical duress are valid reasons for throwing out a prenuptial agreement. Duress can be difficult to prove, but the strategy often works with strong evidence. Proving a lack of mental capacity to understand the terms of the agreement when you signed it is also a valid reason for overturning the agreement.

I'm sure no woman could make that case in the event of a contested divorce...

The #5 reason is also a common one for legally inexperienced men ending up with their prenups overturned. Or they make a silly mistake like loaning their lawyer to their spouse to review the prenup for her (doesn't work that way. She must have her own separate lawyer she hired independently to audit it).

IMO, if you're going to go with a prenup, you should also be taking stronger/smarter asset-protection steps than that. Just in case that prenup goes the way more and more of them are these days, and ends up overturned.

If you really needed a marriage in that situation, where it is open but you're worried about asset protection, you could have a civil ceremony, then sign power of attorney agreements, and set up a joint bank account for joint purchases/rent/mortgage/etc.


@kristian,

Those sound like good rules.

The threats to the system are

  1. If forward progress in the relationship stalls for too long at any certain point

  2. If you stop being as strong a guy, or

  3. The relationship comes under too much external pressure (i.e., you get outed, or are insufficiently discreet... or she just starts talking too openly about it)

If you hit any of those points, it will trigger reassessment in her, where she says, "Wait a minute. Why am I agreeing to this deal with this guy?" and then you're in for the heavy drama. So long as you do a good job avoiding those / handling the relationship with care, it can stay smooth, in theory indefinitely.

There are absolutely men who run one-sided monogamous relationships. However, they tend to be very discreet. The guys who boast about it typically out themselves and get swamped in drama and fold or lose their relationship sooner or later. Also, as you age, you get busier with other stuff and your sex drive goes down, so typically if your main girl is satisfying your needs well taking another woman will just become a time-to-time thing.


@DoWhatWorks,

Yes, the big issue there being the transparency of the setup.

In my case when younger I was too obvious about running relationships like this (especially when I was new to it and oh-so-cocky about how slick I was for being able to have hot girlfriends monogamous to me while I still openly shagged around), and ended up humiliating girlfriends and creating a lot of pushback for myself.

That is one advantage the open relationship / open marriage setup has for it in the current woke/feminist culture of the West: it's a totally 100% endorsed relationship structure, trendy, even, which takes a lot of the pressure off and even lends it social approval.

Whether social approval is enough to overcome what I'd consider to be its obvious shortcomings, I leave that to the individual man to decide.

Again, yes, there are men running implicit one-sided monogamy in the West. It's not super uncommon. The woman knows the husband's fooling around, but he never embarrasses her, he's good with the kids, discharges his familial duties, and she doesn't raise a stink about it so long as it's kept under wraps.

You will even see situations where someone tries to tell the woman her man is cheating on her and she goes off on the tattler, attacking this other person as a busybody and insulting his credibility, trying to undermine him, etc.

I suspect what happens is that the man flounders discreetly and the woman turns a blinds eye/ doesn't ask questions because she's being provided for to a high standard of living... but that's just a guess.

Precisely. It's a bit more complicated than just "standard of living"... you can have the overworked middle class guy providing a high standard of living, and his wife would never agree to or go along with a one-sided set up, and you can have the poorer guy who still provides a happy home and his wife knows how he is and accepts it. There's a fair bit that goes into it. If you can picture the woman who finds some sign of another woman on her man and he brushes it off and she just rolls her eyes at him and the happy relationship continues as usual, you've got the picture.

As for me I'm only considering marriage (whether in long term monogamy or non-monogamy) because it's consistently shown to produce favourable outcomes for children and I may have them in the future

Absolutely, two married parents is a huge advantage for children.

I think it's important to consider what sort of role model you're setting for your children as well.

The women I've seen in open relationships treat their husbands different from how the women in one-sided monogamous ones, or even just regular monogamous ones where the guy has a firm hand on his relationship, treat theirs.

Both women can be respectful, and affectionate... but there is a sort of "my husband is a very powerful, sexually powerful man" sort of respect you see among women who are either in one-sided monogamous marriages or are in explicitly monogamous ones with a sufficiently strong guy. I haven't seen this with open relationship marriages. It's more a kind of affection between equals IME.

I personally feel like that is not what you want children seeing growing up. It should be clear the father's the strong guy in charge of things. The mother has influence, and she makes some rules, and whatnot, but the buck stops with Dad. He's in charge.

If another man is dicking mom, can we really say that "Dad's in charge"?

I think the only way you could is if it's a situation like what you see at the end of Emmanuelle, the 1974 softcore film, where the old guy's taking Emmanuelle around and making her get fucked by guys. In that case, you're still in charge, because she's taking cocks at your direction.

Any other way, you're the dad trying to corral his kids while the mom runs off and does her own thing at least some of the time too.

It seems to always show up in the behavior of the spouses.

Even regular ol' monogamy is better than open marriages for child rearing, if you ask me. Even if the guy loses some of his power and kind of tunes out, and he's retreated to the den watching sportsball much of the time, you can still get the sense the wife/mother is at the least fed up with him -- so there's some sense that there's a role he's supposed to be fulfilling, he just isn't doing that great a job of it.

With open marriage, it's a lot harder for the woman to get as frustrated, because she's getting her cervix pounded by Coworker Joe and Repairman Frank. So if Husband Henry is a bit of a disappointment, well, it's okay -- don't stay up too late watching sports, Henry! I'm heading out now!

That's still better than single-parent. But it's also not really what you want for raising strong kids with good heads on their shoulders.

Chase
 

Vision

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Jul 3, 2020
Messages
324
I have no idea who Black Dragon is... sweet name though. Is that the name of Jackie Chan movie?

I was going through that Mode One guy's stuff the other day, just because a friend recommended it to me and I heard he created a lot of uproar.

After listening to the first audio, there's 100% no doubt in my mind that he's a marketer. You don't tell stories like that without it being carefully crafted through marketing. Then the first part of the program is all massively over simplified and it involves a lot of hard marketing stuff in it (like creating a common enemy, which happens to be PUAs).

Can't fault the guy for wanting to create a cult following. I'd be surprised if there wasn't quite a few people who joined the men's dating advice niche to specifically suck money out of it while selling half truths and overly simplified ideas to be idealized.

Not sure if this Black Dragon guy is one of them or not but it sounds like a similar type of story. If you get wrapped up in the drama of it, you're missing the larger picture of what the guy is doing from a business standpoint that you could learning from.

If whoever running the forum was smart, you'd just kick that person out and incorporate some of their valuable marketing skills in your own business and move on with your life.

Marriage

On the note of marriage, I think marriage is vital to a healthy and functioning society, especially for kids. It is possible that you could have kids raised by a bunch of fathers in some type of leftist dystopian future world but I don't think that's ideal.

That being said, marriage for marriage sake doesn't appeal to me. But since I want kids, I think it's important to do. I also think marriage is important for our society so that the number of incels is reduced in the society.

When you have marriage, theoretically, you're pulling a lot of men out of the running to be sexual partners with a lot of the women. When marriage doesn't exist, those women compete for the best of the breed, leaving regular guys shit out of luck because women are all banging the top breed guys, even if the women are not all that attractive... because the top guy is spreading his seed.

So if you're not one of those top guys, you're looking for scraps. If you don't have the skillset or resources to attract really attractive women, you're left holding your dick.

So I think marriage is vital to keep men feeling like they have a place in the society, even if they're not the top breed of men, don't have amazing communication skills, or the resources to attract a great woman into their lives.
 
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