"AMOG battle" How to do better next time?

[Skills]

@Chase

I truly appreciate your time to respond and help me out re-frame how I was viewing the world while giving me technical how-to. It truly is amazing how you can give a different perspective for me to think about instead of the typical 'just don't react' advice.

Otherwise, I'll be signing up for some classes and improving my mindset to 'charming the world' as you mentioned. I just realized how black and white I was thinking about the world. Thanks for your guidance.

Cheers

Yea good idea kravmaga, boxing, mma.. any will do... there was a seducer that was a bouncer cosy, cost of succes, cody lions i think was called in chase blog... the dude had a poetic way of writting and got picked on more than any poster i have seen... most chill dude never confrontational, it used to drive me crazy when he got picked on and never engage posters, those posters never knew he was a bouncer and profesional fighter... i hope you get the analogy.

 

[StrayDog]

Developing social skills to smoothly defuse situations

@DaVinciMatrixStyle Check out the negotiation masterclass by former FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss. While the bulk of it is geared towards buisness there is still a lot that can be applied towards many different social situations. It is incredible hearing him break down how he is able to get terrorist to back down from beheading a woman, or bank robbers to let hostages go. These methods are designed for diffusing high stakes altercations and creating 'win win' agreements amongst the parties involved.

The thing about anyone who is being antagonistic is that they are doing it for some reason or another, if you're able to skillfully get to the heart of the matter while holding a calm and collected frame, pivoting the aggressive energy into a new direction becomes way more simple. You will often find that the antagonizing parties motivations are far less malicious than would appear. That is not to say that how they are expressing themselves is appropriate. But there is usually some very human piece if themselves at the core of it that is just being marbled by an outward expression of aggression. Chris Voss describes his procces of navigating to this understanding as 'tactical empathy'. It is a process of using empathy to create your desired outcome in a way that the other party can get on board with. Mastering these sort of abilities really is a bit like a super power. You can have a guy go from one minute threatening to punch your face in to the next minute buying you a drink. If that is not boss energy, I don't know what is.

Unless someone is being downright predatory, situations escalating to extreme arguments or outright violence is often a failing on either parties ability to negotiate. It only takes one person with exceptional negotiation skills to lead the interaction away from more dubious terrain. Even if the other party is severely lacking in that department.

I want to also note that often with these kind of interactions It is not even worth getting that deep into it. Usually a well placed comment (in the manner that Chase has outlined in a few posts now) instantly moves the energy along, and there is little need to get into it further.

Having some physical throw down skills is important. But really that is the last of last resorts, and if your other social skills are trained like polished steel things going there won't even feel like it is much on the table at all.

 

[Chase]

@Chase

I truly appreciate your time to respond and help me out re-frame how I was viewing the world while giving me technical how-to. It truly is amazing how you can give a different perspective for me to think about instead of the typical 'just don't react' advice.

Otherwise, I'll be signing up for some classes and improving my mindset to 'charming the world' as you mentioned. I just realized how black and white I was thinking about the world. Thanks for your guidance.

Cheers

Cheers brother. I am happy to read this.

If you do just those two things, and do them seriously, you are going to see life begin to radically shift the flavors it is throwing you within a handful of months.

-C

 

[climbingup]

I don't know where you guys are located. I spent over 5 years of my life in Montana, United States.

Some facts about Montana:
1. Has the highest percent of people with gun ownership in the entire U.S
2. "Montana law allows any person to conceal carry a weapon without a concealed weapon permit, so long as that person is eligible to possess a firearm under state or federal law" -> Montana department of justice website

I learnt very early into my time living there that sometimes it's better to just walk away from an argument even when you could potentially one up a person. I have seen so many arguments escalate into a situation where guns are drawn and in a few cases people lost their lives. It's just so ridiculous and some of these arguments where over absolutely nothing! I saw an argument once in a grocery store parking lot that started over a guy staring at another guy's girlfriend. The boyfriend takes offence, stern convo happen, shouting, the boyfriend loses the verbal escalation and then the boyfriend pulls out a gun to save face, well security has been watching the whole situation unravel and as soon as the boyfriend drew for his weapon, they shot him twice. Boyfriend luckily survived and he ended up getting arrested. Got a criminal record over some complete bullshit.

Other situations I have heard:

1- Two guys got into an argument in the gym over something small, iirc it was to do with not replacing equipment appropriately. What started of as a stern discussion, lead into shouting and the eventual "I will catch you outside". One of the guys waited for the other guy to come outside and literally pulled a gun at him, the police were called and it was just a big shitshow.

2 - Popular artist comes to nightclub, busy crowd. Drunk guy gets a bit too gregarious with the girlfriend of a patron at the club. The friends of the patron shot him, right in the middle of a busy crowded street at busy time, there's actually a video on YouTube with the video of the shooting.

These kind of situations happen so much in Montana and I honestly think the majority of them don't make the news. Am I going outside to hook up with girls or am I going outside to fight? That's the main question.

All these gun carrying people are not hard gangsters. They don't look like 50 cent or look like someone out of narcos or are 6 foot plus bodybuilder types. They are just average white collar/blue collar people, some of them even have kids. You will never tell they are carrying a gun and are just itching to use it.

So no, I don't care about looking like a fool. I will happily turn the other cheek if it means I don't get a gun pulled out on me.

There are situations where one should stand up for one's self but do it in an assertive manner without any posturing or aggressive "I'm a beat your ass up" manner.

If you're the type of person who gets into fights regularly, you should get that checked out. I have never been in a fight in public. The world will usually reflect back to you, what you already are. If you are angry person, you are going to meet a lot of angry people. People will instinctively mirror back to you that anger. I found times that I was chill, content and on an upward trajectory in life. I very rarely got into any "sticky" situations. Even in a gun happy state like Montana.

In summary: please don't get into fights. They are not this awesome thing that movies make us believe. They are not going to make you more masculine and may even have negative life changing consequences that just make your life a complete cluster fuck.

 

[StrayDog]

I don't know where you guys are located. I spent over 5 years of my life in Montana, United States.

Some facts about Montana:
1. Has the highest percent of people with gun ownership in the entire U.S
2. "Montana law allows any person to conceal carry a weapon without a concealed weapon permit, so long as that person is eligible to possess a firearm under state or federal law" -> Montana department of justice website

I learnt very early into my time living there that sometimes it's better to just walk away from an argument even when you could potentially one up a person. I have seen so many arguments escalate into a situation where guns are drawn and in a few cases people lost their lives. It's just so ridiculous and some of these arguments where over absolutely nothing! I saw an argument once in a grocery store parking lot that started over a guy staring at another guy's girlfriend. The boyfriend takes offence, stern convo happen, shouting, the boyfriend loses the verbal escalation and then the boyfriend pulls out a gun to save face, well security has been watching the whole situation unravel and as soon as the boyfriend drew for his weapon, they shot him twice. Boyfriend luckily survived and he ended up getting arrested. Got a criminal record over some complete bullshit.

Other situations I have heard:

1- Two guys got into an argument in the gym over something small, iirc it was to do with not replacing equipment appropriately. What started of as a stern discussion, lead into shouting and the eventual "I will catch you outside". One of the guys waited for the other guy to come outside and literally pulled a gun at him, the police were called and it was just a big shitshow.

2 - Popular artist comes to nightclub, busy crowd. Drunk guy gets a bit too gregarious with the girlfriend of a patron at the club. The friends of the patron shot him, right in the middle of a busy crowded street at busy time, there's actually a video on YouTube with the video of the shooting.

These kind of situations happen so much in Montana and I honestly think the majority of them don't make the news. Am I going outside to hook up with girls or am I going outside to fight? That's the main question.

All these gun carrying people are not hard gangsters. They don't look like 50 cent or look like someone out of narcos or are 6 foot plus bodybuilder types. They are just average white collar/blue collar people, some of them even have kids. You will never tell they are carrying a gun and are just itching to use it.

So no, I don't care about looking like a fool. I will happily turn the other cheek if it means I don't get a gun pulled out on me.

There are situations where one should stand up for one's self but do it in an assertive manner without any posturing or aggressive "I'm a beat your ass up" manner.

If you're the type of person who gets into fights regularly, you should get that checked out. I have never been in a fight in public. The world will usually reflect back to you, what you already are. If you are angry person, you are going to meet a lot of angry people. People will instinctively mirror back to you that anger. I found times that I was chill, content and on an upward trajectory in life. I very rarely got into any "sticky" situations. Even in a gun happy state like Montana.

In summary: please don't get into fights. They are not this awesome thing that movies make us believe. They are not going to make you more masculine and may even have negative life changing consequences that just make your life a complete cluster fuck.

I am not sure that any of the guys here are really advocating for even verbally escalating in these situations (as a means of one-upping the other guy) or anything like that. But that's just my perception of the discussion thus far. It seems like maybe Hector has a different sort of approach towards these situations (which I am not exactly clear on where he is coming from) but even then, he seems to be saying that anytime he has encountered violence, he probably could have handled the situation better, overall. It is interesting that a thread that was originally intended to be about "how to better handle amoging" has veered so deeply into the subject of verbal escalation, physical altercation, and self-defense. this is probably due in part to @DaVinciMatrixStyle original framework for understanding these sorts of situations and how he handled himself in the example he provided. There still seems a lot of room here to explore different techniques on how not to be pushed around while simultaneously not escalating. I can understand your stance of "who cares if I look foolish, it is not worth it to die." But that might be coming from a stance that says that the only way to stand one's ground is to escalate (or one up). Obviously, there are many situations where it is best to just walk away (even if the ego feels a little bruised), but that is not always the best option (or walking away might not even immediately be a possibility. Also, sometimes folding under pressure too quickly can actually give an aggressor more license to push you around). Surely there are methods to not appear foolish (or be pushed around) while not escalating at the same time.

Also, sometimes there are bad people dead set on hurting others. number one self-defense is of course learning how to not be a target in the first place. But I believe that it is wise for a man to consider that physical self-defense (god forbid) may have to be a last resort effort, should it ever come to that (despite his best efforts to make avoid such a scenario. Which could even include running away).

All that said, amoging can often be rather benign, all things considered, and things escalating to violence is not even a thing that is on the table.. I don't believe a discussion on handling amoging needs to be synonymous with self-defense and verbal/physical escalation.

 

[mella]

One-ups are alright if the guy who said something to you wasn't particularly serious, just being a clown. With just a little bit of cleverness and minimal effort you can verbally fuck a guy up his ass with a one-liner so badly that he'll be the laughingstock of any onlookers. Needless to say he'll think twice before saying something stupid to you again, unless he enjoys getting clowned over and over again. And if your one-up skills aren't up to par for some reason, that's ok too because there's ways to get better at it.

Great thread, wonderful replies from a lot of guys. I'll add that Elliott Rodger also had a very similar “angry loner” mentality before he died. Weeks before, he went to a festival, where he felt frustrated upon seeing a bunch of frat boys having a good time with a clique of girls. Out of anger, he climbed up on a stage where they were all dancing and tried to push some of them off. Being weak and frail, he failed to do that. They then pushed him back and knocked him off, resulting in him breaking his leg. (That’s why all of his shooting was done from a car). Now do you see what kind of guys possess that type of energy/mentality? When you see a psycho thinking like this, that’s when you know you REALLY don’t want to be thinking in the same way as him.

Without being redundant, let me say yeah I’ve heard and seen enough violence to tell you it’s no good to escalate. Places with a lot of gun toters can get crazy. Knew a guy who knew another guy in Montana who literally blew a kid’s foot off with a .44 Ruger. The kid put hands on him so he was legally justified. Who needs that shit in their life? Me personally, I’m too lazy to do anything beyond the “law of least effort” as Chase so masterfully put it. This is the ideal way to live. It shows that you’re a king who already has everything he needs. Which if you meditate on that, you’ll see it's totally true. This is how PLAYERS do it; they play. The strong control the weak and the clever control the strong. Pretty simple thing. It’s always WAY more impressive to diffuse something than it is to beat someone to a pulp; even gorillas can do that, but can they de-escalate? This is where your ingenuity as a man comes in. Don't forget that women depend on you for security, on a very primal level. If you can show them that you can solve situations masterfully with the least effort, that makes you one hell of a lot more impressive/valuable to them than if you were a big dumb goon. Think of all the bigwigs in the world - do they ever do goon shit? When Ford was running his Motor Company he sent goons to beat down socialist workers who were protesting for better treatment - but did those goons run shit or did HE run the whole shebang? Mind over matter.

 

[Teevster]

I know a seducer now, going to jail for this type of behavior. Everyone and their mother told him to control it for a long time.. this amog stuff is overcompensating alpha behavior nobody teaches or care about amog, one of those flawed seductions theory.

I know of one too.. his name is Velasco.

Beating up barowners for hitting on the girl he likesm randomly punching girls in the street (!) and then resisting arrest is probably the extreme dimension of this, but yeah guys, don' push it.


-Teevster

 

[DaVinciMatrixStyle]

This got way more attention than i expected

 

[Starboy]

I just noticed this thread and there's great value in it. I think the consensus here is avoid fights and don't entertain the bullshit a lot of men will throw at you. I've always been a very cautious guy and it's part survival instinct,but I think a lot of that is fear and insecurity on my part.

True there is nothing to gain from fighting random dudes who want to provoke you or disrespect you. No girl is worth fighting over and the only reason you should fight is if your girl is in danger, but me avoiding fights is more cuz i'm afraid of the outcome and wouldn't know how to handle myself then a matter of being smart. I might be too nervous to even tool a guy cuz he would be offended and want to throw hands off that alone.

I'm kinda like hector's size although probably weigh a bit less and I don't have the fighting experience/training either. I lift weights,but I don't lift heavy and look that intimidating. From what people in the community say fights are very rare and you have to provoke someone to get into a fight at night. Or pickup a girl too overtly in front of her male friends.

I always think of enlisting in some mma/martial arts class to know how to defend myself and feel like some kind of tough guy. But I was wondering if my motivations were wrong and if this is just a desire to overcompensate for my flaws since i'm not and probably will never be a physically imposing prescence. Being tough doesn't get you more girls or attraction with them or correct me if i'm wrong.

Is this issue of amoging/potential fights an instance where fear can actually be a good thing and doesn't need to be overcome like with women?

 

[DaVinciMatrixStyle]

I just noticed this thread and there's great value in it. I think the consensus here is avoid fights and don't entertain the bullshit a lot of men will throw at you. I've always been a very cautious guy and it's part survival instinct,but I think a lot of that is fear and insecurity on my part.

True there is nothing to gain from fighting random dudes who want to provoke you or disrespect you. No girl is worth fighting over and the only reason you should fight is if your girl is in danger, but me avoiding fights is more cuz i'm afraid of the outcome and wouldn't know how to handle myself then a matter of being smart. I might be too nervous to even tool a guy cuz he would be offended and want to throw hands off that alone.

I'm kinda like hector's size although probably a bit less and I don't have the fighting experience/training either. I lift weights,but I don't get much weightFrom what people in the community say fights are very rare and you have to provoke someone to get into a fight. Or pickup a girl too overtly in front of her male friends.

I always think of enlisting in some mma/martial arts class to know how to defend myself and feel like some kind of tough guy. But I was wondering if my motivations were wrong and if this is just a desire to overcompensate for my flaws since i'm not and probably will never be a physically imposing prescence. Being tough doesn't get you more girls or attraction with them or correct me if i'm wrong.

Is this issue of amoging/potential fights an instance where fear can actually be a good thing and doesn't need to be overcome like with women?

I thought about what @Chase said for a long time. Overall, you should carefully pick your fights but if you're gonna confront, be ready to go all the way. Being ready means training in MMA gyms that focus on sparring at least weekly so you gain experience.

A lot of guys fight to 'not look like a bitch' but that also is a reaction to not being confident in your combat skills and the need to prove something. That applies to me too, but it lessens as I train more.

Recently, I came back to my campus going to the fitness gym. As I was going to use another equipment next to me while another guy was wiping it off, some random guy started screaming at me saying that it was his equipment and he had dibs. I thought about it for a long time and I decided it was worth going all the way especially this guy is someone I've seen before and will see in the future around campus & gym.

After a few days, I see him again. This time he avoids me completely and doesn't try the same 'I'm having a bad day and I wanna take it out on you" bs. So in the end it was worth it for me.

I also walk around downtown alot. There's a bit of a homeless problem with a LOT of shady characters around mean mugging you. It triggers that same animal instinct where you know the guy's looking for someone to try and shit on. But I think about the rewards of fighting a street guy, and there's nothing other than a whole bunch of risks + ego boost. So I just make eye contact, wave, and keep on walking.

I also don't feel like a bitch b/c I know my capabilities in sparring and live fighting sessions 1 on 1. So at the minimum, it would get to a point where after a few rounds of punches, the guys gonna be like fuck I dont wanna do this shit. But after that fight, what's the reward?

So I'd say MMA/Gym should be a baseline for all aspiring seducers out there. Not to get violent but to have a choice whether you should fight or not without feeling like a punk cause you know you backed out due to fear.

 

[climbingup]

@Starboy
Why is learning to fight a big deal for you? I understand being afraid of confrontation but you don't have to train MMA just to get over the fear. Just be willing to call people out and cut people off if they don't live up to your standards. You don't have to physically tango with someone. A guy I know that doesn't take any bullshit is a skinny Belgian dude, he calls people out and isn't afraid to be angry. He could probably get beaten up but he's never been. If you want to train MMA, do it man! Exercise is always good but do it for the right reasons you know. Knowing MMA will help in a one on one physical fight but it won't help if the other guy has a gun or against a group of people you know.





I guess with fights, it's just I very rarely get into loud arguments or even confrontations with people in daily life. I probably get into more arguments online than I do in real life tbh.

Sure, if you are going to fight you MUST be willing to go ALL OUT. You gotta have the attitude, if I get beat up then it is what it is, but I'm going to put myself fully on the line here.

Will I fight with a homeless guy that verbally assaults me? Lol no
What will I gain from that?
Will I fight with a random stranger when my life is not physically in danger? Most likely not.

Will I fight someone that's making my life difficult at my workplace who I have to see regularly? I won't fight but I will confront them. Will it lead to a physical fight? I hope not but if it does then I guess it happens.

It's just getting into a physical fight with a random stranger when your physical safety isn't under threat, is just such a waste of time and energy and I struggle to see how it would be worth it.

Not to even mention the amount of concealed carriers out there who are just itching to pull their gun out. But honestly I have never been in a situation when I'm with a girl and a guy has tried to fight me physically or directly confront me.
If it does happen then sure, be willing to fight but it's just so rare and direct physical confrontations could usually have been avoided earlier.

Actually I just remembered, there was a guy I knew that got into fights a lot. He would go to the most ghetto clubs in Memphis. I went to one of these clubs ONCE, it was full of thugs and drug dealers. Guys would get bottled and fights were a regular occurrence. The bouncers would just watch and wait for it to calm down because they didn't want to risk making one of the local drug dealers their enemy. Those kind of clubs are full of Tricky Daddy's and Pooh Shiestys. The club is actually closed down now because of a shooting that happened.

Venue selection is also a big reason why I guess fights are rare. If you go to a ghetto club with a bunch of thugs by yourself and try to talk to girls in a socially uncalibrated way (or even in a smooth way but a guy gets jealous) then yes you might catch a beatdown and you should be prepared to defend yourself.