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How We Judge Others is How We Judge Ourselves

Chrance

Cro-Magnon Man
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I understand what you’re saying a little bit @Oh Pry. Please understand that on here I’m trying to articulate a point or idea, not be emotionally stimulating or to have sex with you lmao no offense

Something maybe you can explain is why a man can’t be aggressive, sexy and “smart” at the same. These are not mutually exclusive things. Having a lot of things to say to a group of chicks seems beneficial to me. IMO a good looking guy with game who is dumb is outgunned by a good looking guy with game who is smart. Reading stuff by bacchus, teevster, mystery and others I don’t see any dumbing down. Seems like smart stuff to me. Do you see where I’m coming from?
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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I understand what you’re saying a little bit @Oh Pry. Please understand that on here I’m trying to articulate a point or idea, not be emotionally stimulating or to have sex with you lmao no offense

Something maybe you can explain is why a man can’t be aggressive, sexy and “smart” at the same. These are not mutually exclusive things. Having a lot of things to say to a group of chicks seems beneficial to me. IMO a good looking guy with game who is dumb is outgunned by a good looking guy with game who is smart. Reading stuff by bacchus, teevster, mystery and others I don’t see any dumbing down. Seems like smart stuff to me. Do you see where I’m coming from?

I think a lot of how we are on a forum kind of carries over on to real life, you can get a read on someone's personality based on their forum posts. I get that you are trying to "articulate" an idea but my thoughts were if you talk to people like that in real life, some might tell you "just make the point bro".

As for why someone cannot be all 3, it's not that they can't be, it's just that there are times to be all 3. I work with people who went to the top schools, they are very common in the field I am leaving. A lot of those straight A Ivy League types who might even be decent looking struggle with women because they feel out of place in a nightclub due to their demeanor.

So when you were a bit concerned about social hiearchies and how unfair it is if someone tries to AMOG you, the sad reality is that at least in American culture, we kind of pride the guy who is brash and plays dumb.

Look at the presidential election, we all know that Trump is a very brilliant guy when it comes to winning over a crowd, he dumbs it down to connect with the masses.

It's similar with girls at a nightclub too, they are not there to talk Aristotle, they're really there to have someone connect with them on that sort of level.

I might have been way off in my evaluation of you but when I was thinking about it, I was reminded of myself a bit. You're a brilliant and clearly well-read guy but you kind of have to see situations where coming off as that sophisticated scholar might not work to your advantage.

So when I saw you talk of hierarchies, I was thinking that is what the likely case is, others are not rewarding you in the way you would like to be rewarded and you get tired of seeing some guy less sophisticated or intelligent get the glory.
 

Carousel

Tribal Elder
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I understand what you’re saying a little bit @Oh Pry. Please understand that on here I’m trying to articulate a point or idea, not be emotionally stimulating or to have sex with you lmao no offense

Something maybe you can explain is why a man can’t be aggressive, sexy and “smart” at the same. These are not mutually exclusive things. Having a lot of things to say to a group of chicks seems beneficial to me. IMO a good looking guy with game who is dumb is outgunned by a good looking guy with game who is smart. Reading stuff by bacchus, teevster, mystery and others I don’t see any dumbing down. Seems like smart stuff to me. Do you see where I’m coming from?

High IQ is probably on average a problem, however the top seducers are almost all very intelligent. I have written an in-depth analysis of this.

 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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I actually read that, great article @Carousel

I don't think having a high IQ is the problem as much as showing yourself to be the guy with high IQ is. People just tend to dislike brainy and educated in the western world, they prefer the brute or the brash. I think it comes from the school age stereotype of the nerd and how he was not liked, then it carries over on to the adult world as people now associate outward intelligence as geeky.

It has surprised me how you cannot judge a book by its cover though. I've met bouncers, bartenders, and people working the trades who were exceptionally brilliant people that picked up on stuff fast. Meanwhile, you find countless kids who went to the top schools but are kinda dumb, only getting to those schools because of who they knew.

Speaking scholarly isn't always the best indicator either, anyone can pick up vocabulary words. I define intelligence as how quickly someone can pick up on a tough concept.
 

Velasco

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A lot of those straight A Ivy League types who might even be decent looking struggle with women because they feel out of place in a nightclub due to their demeanor.
because they lack social savviness.

for someone who is new to PUA, you need to be intelligent enough to read articles/book on female psychology, and then apply (and know when to apply) the tactics/concepts (and come up with your own ways of applying said concepts, instead of relying on someone else's routine) you can use to exploit it (game).
 

Velasco

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my thoughts were if you talk to people like that in real life,

And do you also think this is how Teevster talks to women he's trying to seduce on a Saturday night?

obviously do not play with the new graphics haha. I play with classic graphics. There are few differences to TFT at this point. The meta has changed a bit. I specialize in 2v2 arranged team. I play elf (played elf since 2004) and recently switched over to undead, mainly because with the years my micro has become really good (200+ apm) and undead benefits more form micro than elf - which I consider more a macro race. I am also fed up with elf, after getting the 1500 win with elf icone, and then making a new account with another 1000 wins with elf, and then make a lot of smurfs... playing elf, I kind of had enough.
 

Carousel

Tribal Elder
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Something maybe you can explain is why a man can’t be aggressive, sexy and “smart” at the same.

There are some more realizations since I wrote that post some years ago.

- Dance floors mainly require physical confidence, level of extraversion or intelligence is rather irrelevant. Both Aaron Sleazy and TheCostOfSuccess are highly intelligent and introverted guys, I have seen both in action, was a fantastic sight.

- Approach outside the dance floor areas where there is still a high energy level requires a shitload of state and extraversion

- Approach in quieter areas or at streets after closing time requires low to moderate amounts of extraversion.

- Advanced verbals require high intelligence and level of extraversion determined by setting as described above.

Extraversion is an unrelated trait to intelligence, they are variation along different axes. A lot of people confuse introversion with intelligence, or shyness rooted in traumas to introversion.
 
you miss 100% of the shots you don't take

The Emerald Archer

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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I didn’t realize Manson was trying to make people feel okay with mediocrity in that article. If that is the case, then I don’t agree with that underlying theme.

The only part that intrigued me about judgment (and Manson isn’t the only place I’ve read this idea) is the whole “mirror” effect that takes place when judging someone.

Like the gay example. You might judge a man for being gay and having disgust when really the person who judges the gay man may secretly have gay urges himself or might slightly get aroused about homoeroticism.

In other words, their judgment and showing of disgust (in the homoerotic scenario) is merely a reflection or “mirror” of themselves. They are not comfortable with their urges or maybe even sexuality and might even get aroused at homoeroticism and instead of dealing with those emotions properly, they project it unto others in the form of disgust and moral superiority.

As for having standards, yes! I completely agree and that’s why I still struggle to find that fine line between not judging and judging because I don’t want to endorse mediocrity or underachievement.

Personally, I strive to be a high-achiever and love to compete against other men. I take great pride on being successful or being “ahead of the curve” in areas of life where the majority of the population struggles greatly, like personal finances, not being happy or fulfilled in your career, not able to get into a relationship and manage it properly with high-caliber women, being physically fit and stronger than most men, understanding how society and social control/conditioning works and how the mainstream media is a form of population control for the elites, etc.

In that instance, I think standards are absolutely necessary and that when you consistently hit those benchmarks and beyond, it’s hard not to have a chip on your shoulder.

If I see someone (mainly men) who are content phoning it in at work and not striving to be one of the high-performers in the company or seek progress by getting promoted, or not have any side projects or hustles they’re building up so they can leave the corporate world and have more freedom, and if they don’t exercise, eat healthily, don’t have good social skills and/or are needy with women, then I won’t spend too much time around them because I want to be the opposite of those habits and behaviors.

However, I can still empathize and understand that most people are comfortable and that they just want a “normal life” whatever that means to a person, and therefore can show some understanding (instead of disgust) or shake my head and say “yeah, it’s kinda sad more people don’t strive to achieve xyz standards because they could have a much better life if they did. Oh well, back to xyz goal or project I’m working on”

This is what I was getting at and what I think Lover was trying to convey too.
 

Carousel

Tribal Elder
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Petty petty petty. Can't let go.

I have let your other thread go.
If you think you have a free pass to KJ about how to get intelligent guys to function in club game, sorry mate.
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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I have let your other thread go.
If you think you have a free pass to KJ about how to get intelligent guys to function in club game, sorry mate.

Let me kind of coach you here on how to attack a point and not shoot the messenger, so this turns into a debate and nothing personal.

Calling someone a "KJ" when they have spent years going out is attacking them. Most people do not take well to being attacked.

Now saying "Hey (name), that's not the case at all and not what I have observed, here is what I have observed" lends itself to a discussion, it doesn't take threads off the rails, and it keeps everything relevant to the point at hand.

Someone has no need to call you names or attack you personally when all you have done is attacked their point and shared your observations. Now this is me genuinely thinking you're trying to contribute to a discussion and might be over it.

So the choice is yours. Attack the points made, we can have a discussion. Attack me, I'll say what I really feel about you. Ball is in your court.
 

Carousel

Tribal Elder
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Let me kind of coach you here on how to attack a point and not shoot the messenger, so this turns into a debate and nothing personal.

Calling someone a "KJ" when they have spent years going out is attacking them. Most people do not take well to being attacked.

Do you know the difference between a noun and a verb?

"To KJ", is whar I accused you for. I dunno whether you are "a KJ" in general. However your claims about personality and club game are definitely a result of the verb "to KJ".

Attack the points made, we can have a discussion.

Sure, here we go:

See, that is what I was actually trying to get at as someone who has been in your fucking shoes years ago man. I used to also feel that way and was all in my head too. Now I get it, you're a smart and well-read guy and that pays off in many ways. The problem here is that when you go out in those environments, especially a nightclub, it is often the aggressive more forward guys who can keep it simple that get the girl.

Here you operate with a false dichotomy. Smart and well-read people can't be aggressive at opening or forward. This is total bullshit and it proves that you have never hung out with good PUAs. A shocking amount of the top guys actually have academic degrees or are generally well-read. Tyler for example has a major in philosophy.

I used to go out for nights on end and not do a single approach. At times, I'd eye down a girl I was super into but not approach, only to find that minutes later some douche with huge biceps approached her and was making out with her in under an hour.

This is a sticking point that is solved by various techs like state-boosting, Mysterys 3 second rule, TRE and mass approaching.


Your claim here is also rubbish because HESITATION TO APPROACH has nothing to do with THE ACTUAL WORDING in the later conversation.

1. Changing yourself to be more simple and dumbing it down in those environments. Women love silly, dumb, and forward in those scenarios. They want guys who can tease them in simple words and have that normal person conversation.

It is obvious you never studied any advanced verbals. Such as material from.

- David Riker
- Ross Jeffries
- Swingcat
- Bacchus
- Teevster
- Bishop
- Major Mark

NONE of these guys express themselves in simple and dumb wording. The only exception here is when you are dealing with a below-average intelligent chick.
 
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Carousel

Tribal Elder
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I think a lot of how we are on a forum kind of carries over on to real life, you can get a read on someone's personality based on their forum posts. I get that you are trying to "articulate" an idea but my thoughts were if you talk to people like that in real life, some might tell you "just make the point bro".

Part of being good at communication is to tailor communication to context and the target. Should we express ourselves similarly on the internet to a bunch of guys trying to learn a subject as with tipsy women at 2 AM in a club? Please.

As for why someone cannot be all 3, it's not that they can't be, it's just that there are times to be all 3. I work with people who went to the top schools, they are very common in the field I am leaving. A lot of those straight A Ivy League types who might even be decent looking struggle with women because they feel out of place in a nightclub due to their demeanor.

This is addressed in my post on STEM guys, it applies to university nerds in general. Also you can't equate the behavior of untrained high-IQ people with what we are doing here. A lot of these problems are fixable.

Look at the presidential election, we all know that Trump is a very brilliant guy when it comes to winning over a crowd, he dumbs it down to connect with the masses.

It's similar with girls at a nightclub too, they are not there to talk Aristotle, they're really there to have someone connect with them on that sort of level.

This is NOT similar in more than one respect. Winning over a crowd requires a one size fits all message. The correct approach to winning over a chic or a small group of chics will be much more individual and tailored to their social frame. What about places where students and professional women hang out, you think all of these will prefer a meathead archetype vs an educated guy?

I might have been way off in my evaluation of you but when I was thinking about it, I was reminded of myself a bit. You're a brilliant and clearly well-read guy but you kind of have to see situations where coming off as that sophisticated scholar might not work to your advantage

So when I saw you talk of hierarchies, I was thinking that is what the likely case is, others are not rewarding you in the way you would like to be rewarded and you get tired of seeing some guy less sophisticated or intelligent get the glory.

Being educated or intelligent may not always be an advantage. However it may also not be a DISADVANTAGE vs the meathead archetype guy. It may simply be irrelevant and neutral and other factors may decide.
 
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Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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@Bacchus I already have a personal journal and if anything, I am more than happy for a healthy debate. Moving on though.

@Carousel Alright, that's what I am talking about! Debating the fucking point.

From my experience and what I have witnessed, the slayers were rarely the educated guys or even that intelligent. If I had to put it in words, I say they almost talked to girls in the way you would talk to a kid, that's the best way to put it. They were silly, dumbed it down, and did not take themselves too seriously. I find that intelligent guys have a fragile ego and tend to take themselves a bit too seriously.

Fair point about tailoring communication to context and reading your audience, after all, you do not want to sound so brash in front of a crowd of educated engineers. My point was simply that on this forum, we're not exactly physicists with PhD from Harvard. We are all a bunch of guys trying to get our dicks wet. I think part of what could be useful is just dumbing it all down and having the conversation on a more normal person level where you do not use higher order words, rather, talk like Trump talks to the population.

Again, I will concede that you and @Chrance had a point there. What I was getting at is that if that kind of communication goes out to a nightclub, it won't be of benefit.

I actually do disagree with you to an extent on winning over a crowd versus a woman. Winning over a crowd does not require a one size fits all message, it varies based on the crowd you are talking to the same way it varies based on the kinds of women you are talking to.

In my view and from what I have observed, guys who were good communicators knew how to hit you on an emotional level and put that spell on you. I saw some of that carry over on to game too as these guys did not just talk to women, they communicated on an emotional level with them on that night. Part of that is dumbing it down if you are in a nightclub or bar.

But the root of it all is still the same, the fundamental is the same.

You might say one thing to a girl versus another but that communication is the same. In most seduction settings, use of massive words and being boring is not helping you. You have to be relatable and I would say in about 90% of cases (even among most college kids), it is not really sounding like an intellectual.

I already addressed setting in my previous posts but my point is, in settings where game and seduction commonly happens (nightclubs, bars, etc.), you're going to have to dumb it down in a big way.
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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I also wanted to add that we need to quit using PUAs as example, most of them are simply strange and outliers to society compared to the normal man. We're not going to bars wearing magician hats and reading palms here. I am talking more about the normal guys here who are struggling and not wanting to play a character.
 

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Tribal Elder
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From my experience and what I have witnessed, the slayers were rarely the educated guys or even that intelligent. If I had to put it in words, I say they almost talked to girls in the way you would talk to a kid, that's the best way to put it. They were silly, dumbed it down, and did not take themselves too seriously.

These are typical limiting beliefs of people who have not hung out with a variety of naturals and PUAs.

I find that intelligent guys have a fragile ego and tend to take themselves a bit too seriously.

The average low-IQ natural has just as much of an ego. Try to call a random meathead guy gay and see what happens (and be prepared to run). Watch how they react if their girlfriends cheat.

Fair point about tailoring communication to context and reading your audience, after all, you do not want to sound so brash in front of a crowd of educated engineers. My point was simply that on this forum, we're not exactly physicists with PhD from Harvard.

As I actually have a Ph. D. in a STEM field myself, I can tell you that natural scientists and engineers may be really rude as their empathy levels tend to be low.

We are all a bunch of guys trying to get our dicks wet. I think part of what could be useful is just dumbing it all down and having the conversation on a more normal person level where you do not use higher order words, rather, talk like Trump talks to the population.

Again, I will concede that you and @Chrance had a point there. What I was getting at is that if that kind of communication goes out to a nightclub, it won't be of benefit.

I actually do disagree with you to an extent on winning over a crowd versus a woman. Winning over a crowd does not require a one size fits all message, it varies based on the crowd you are talking to the same way it varies based on the kinds of women you are talking to.

In my view and from what I have observed, guys who were good communicators knew how to hit you on an emotional level and put that spell on you. I saw some of that carry over on to game too as these guys did not just talk to women, they communicated on an emotional level with them on that night. Part of that is dumbing it down if you are in a nightclub or bar.

But the root of it all is still the same, the fundamental is the same.

You might say one thing to a girl versus another but that communication is the same. In most seduction settings, use of massive words and being boring is not helping you. You have to be relatable and I would say in about 90% of cases (even among most college kids), it is not really sounding like an intellectual.

I already addressed setting in my previous posts but my point is, in settings where game and seduction commonly happens (nightclubs, bars, etc.), you're going to have to dumb it down in a big way.

You are just repeating a bunch of points that have been addressed above and you keep conflating different concepts. Also I do not see that you have any sort of authority to lecture on what sorts of communication that can be used in clubs, as you mainly get laid from dating apps. You admitted having problems in night game.

I also wanted to add that we need to quit using PUAs as example, most of them are simply strange and outliers to society compared to the normal man.

You are repeating a point that has been invalidated by me already. But let me repeat. Being strange or an outlier is not inherently bad or good. Being exceptional at something, is being an outlier. Your own idol Bilzerian is a more uncommon type of man than good PUAs. You seem totally oblivous to this. The normal man lays 7 women or so and gets married, so again, time to get married for you if being "normal" is the vision.

We're not going to bars wearing magician hats and reading palms here. I am talking more about the normal guys here who are struggling and not wanting to play a character.

Running Mysterymethod does not require you to wear a hat or read palms.

I am talking more about the normal guys here who are struggling and not wanting to play a character.

Mystery method, Riker's materials etc are frameworks you can use to more effectively express whatever sort of personality you have. You can also perfect these to whatever level you want be it basic or elite. So this is just false and rationalizing mediocrity.
 
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Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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What I am saying is not rationalizing mediocrity, what I am saying is that the pickup stuff makes you seem strange and weird in the sense that, it's just strange and weird. There is a difference between being strange and being exceptional. In an ideal scenario, you incorporate game into that very social setting without being that over the top like some cartoon character or comedy toon, big difference here.

Yeah, the top guys might have degrees and be educated but most of all, they are relatable. In this case, they know to read the room and dumb it down.

Talking philosophically and like a sage in a nightclub? Not relatable.

Magic tricks, weirdo peacocking pickup stuff, and cheesy gimmicks? Not relatable.

I have had my struggles at time with nightgame although the truth is, online dating has treated me so well that I do not need to invest the time in it as I once did. When I did have my successes, albeit a while ago, it was due to being forward, relatable, and dumbing it down.

So going back to the original point I was making before this all got lost in an argument.

Yes, being relatable often means dumbing it down to where you can speak with the average person. Even in "professional" an educated settings, be normal instead of sounding like some sage that spent his life in a textbook. The average person is not going around using big flashy vocabulary words to get their message across, they are just using the basic language to communicate. Instead of saying "my dear that was an egregious performance!", they say "dude that sucked!'.

So yes, while all of these guys might be "educated" and even booksmart, the successful ones are relatable and often dumb it down to communicate with the average person.
 

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Tribal Elder
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What I am saying is not rationalizing mediocrity, what I am saying is that the pickup stuff makes you seem strange and weird in the sense that, it's just strange and weird. There is a difference between being strange and being exceptional. In an ideal scenario, you incorporate game into that very social setting without being that over the top like some cartoon character or comedy toon, big difference here.

So you have multiple places now referred to pickup as making you socially strange. And you wrote this in the "integration" thread:

You are a socially fulfilled people person instead of some pump and dump psychopath.


But then I have to ask, before I say anything more:

Why on earth are you starting dozens of threads asking for help on a forum populated by PUAs if you think their usual methods lead to social weirdness or morally abhorrent behavior?
 

HandsomeSexGod

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I came across this interesting article from Mark Manson about judging other people. I know Mark has gone mainstream with a lot of his writing and opinions, but I find he has some good gems here and there, and this is one of them.

This particular section of the article stuck out to me:



I instantly thought of some of the posters on here who are obsessed with wanting to be the guy who fist bumps "alpha" dudes when they walk into a room or the guy who shows up to a bar/club with hot girls on his arm to make other people jealous.

It makes perfect sense, if they were socially awkward back in high school/college then that's the yardstick they use to measure themselves now in adulthood. That's why "just game and pickup" doesn't seem to be enough for these folks, or why they see someone in a happy relationship living out in the 'burbs as a "loser."

There's a couple of other examples, like the poor kid who is obsessed with becoming rich, or the born-again Christian who judges everyone around them who hasn't "found Jesus" and whatnot. You guys should take a gander at the article.

But the part about the social status stuck out to me right away since there's been a lot (gazillion maybe?) of posts revolving around social status and popularity going on in the forums these past 4-5 months or so and this excerpt does a good job of understanding some of the "why".



This is quite true. Atleast I can say it's true for myself to an extent... I used to purposely be keeping my virginity for marriage...then I learnt about about what life really is and I went to the total opposite side of the spectrum (manwhore).

I try not to judge people..but I obviously do.

I can agree, what you think of others says more about yourself than it says about them.
 
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