LR Insane resistance from married chick

[The Byronic Man]

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NOTE: This LR took place over the course of 3 days, so it's a long read.

As part of my plan to proactively make changes to my life by taking charge of it, I recently started a social group on meetup.com. In my first meetup, an attractive lady 5 years my senior shows up. Think athletic, 38-year old with dirty blond MILF.

Since I was the group leader, I had to flirt subtly with her (e.g. taking her food without asking, incidental touching, prolonged eye contact) so she knew I was interested in her but nobody else did. She flirts back, but I don't escalate because I had too much stuff going on in my life at the time (women included; online dating sites can be like fishing with dynamite).

A few weeks later, I had another meetup scheduled for happy hour, but I canceled because not enough people RSVPed. However, she texts me if we could chat. I call her and she asks for directions to happy hour, and I tell her that I cancelled due to a lack of RSVPs. Surprisingly, she then asks if I'd still like to meet up with her. I tell her that I'd be down for that.

To make a long story short, she met up at my place, smoked weed, grabbed sushi to eat at the beach, and had her give me a walking tour of million dollar homes (she used to live in the area). We went back to my place, smoked some more weed, and chatted for a bit. I tried to make things happen by having her sit on my lap in the only chair in my bedroom while we browsed the internet, but she didn’t comply. A bit later, when she had a bathroom break, I went to my bed hoping she would follow my lead, but I was so tired I fell asleep right away, ha. When I awoke later that afternoon, she had already left. One thing to point out was the night before, I asked her what was up with her husband, and she told me that he did not fulfill her physical and emotional needs! I vowed to not get too high next time so I could escalate properly and sleep with her. I was also afraid I may be getting friendzoned, so committed to being edgier next time.

She is texting and emailing me a bunch the following week, and she suggests hiking and some Halloween trail thing. I decline the Halloween trail, but we agree to hike Friday night. I throw in a lot of sexual innuendo and chase frames and she eats it up (I am by no means an expert on this yet, but am getting better at it). Examples:

HER: (Something about some hiking gear to stay warm.)
ME: Are you planning to take advantage of me?
HER: Haha, no, not yet. (Said with a smirk.)

Her and I are huddling together under a blanket because it's cold as FUCK on the mountain at midnight, and when she looks at me and snuggles up closer to me...
ME: Are you trying to seduce me?
HER: Is that something you say to other girls?
ME: Is it working yet?
HER: (I forgot what she said exactly, but she basically said, "no.")
ME: Well, you're not my type anyway. (Said with a smirk.)

She later offers to smoke some weed, and I accept because I feel confident I can eventually get her back to my place to sleep with her, not to mention I’m not afraid of losing her since she would still make a cool friend. More importantly though is that I have a policy having fun to be the most important objective in any date or social event, and hiking in the middle of the night high listening to trippy music on a portable stereo is something on my to-do list. Unfortunately, things get sour because she brought her chihuahua along (she couldn't leave him alone in her house for whatever reason) and her dog was getting sick from the cold, so we had to make a quick, emergency hike down. Her dog feels better, and by this time, it's 6am, so we grab some breakfast where apparently everyone knows her. I chat with the locals and then go back to her place, but because I'm absolutely tired, I fell asleep in her car. At her place, I make a beeline for her sofa and go back to sleep.

When I wake up, she asks if I could help her fix her bed. This turned into a 10-minute, sexually-charged, flirting session. At the same time, I'm closing distance so we're within kissing distance. To create sexual tension. Examples:

HER: Will the screw fit?
ME: Is screwing all you can think of right now?
HER: Haha, uh, I mean do you think the hole is big enough?
ME: Maybe if we lubricate it...with some oil.
HER: I don't know if oil is the best choice. I was thinking something...organic.

HER: Don't drill too quickly or you'll strip the hole!
ME: Gotcha. So you want to go nice and slow. Because you don't want it to come...too quickly.
HER: Yeah, and you need to go in at the right angle too to hit the right spot.

HER: I don't think those nails will fit.
ME: Yeah, size matters. I don't think their girth is big enough. So what were you saying about your cousin again?

HER: I can't hammer it in.
ME: You need to put some passion into it!

After her bed was "fixed," my plan was to make things happen there, but the bed was sagging in the middle, so I suggested we grab a bite to eat and pick up some bed slats at Ikea afterwards. My real plan though was to grab a bite to eat close to my place (since Ikea was past my place) and then have her stay over at my place since Ikea would be closed by then and her bed was broken. She likes the plan, and follows me in her car.

This is where things get interesting...

 

[The Byronic Man]

Sure enough after dinner, it’s 10:30pm, so Ikea and every hardware store is closed. I walk with her back to her car, and we chat for a bit.

One thing I didn’t mention earlier is that she’s always employing compliance ladders to establish control. If I had set the right frame from the beginning, this probably wouldn’t be such a problem, but if you recall, I got too high and was in a situation where she was doing most of the leading. An example of a little frame battle was when she asked to see my driver’s license. I told her I’ll let her see mine if she shows me her as well. This actually became a silly "stare-down," and I told her I can’t believe we’re fighting over our driver’s license. Again, I wouldn’t think she’d be playing so many games if I set the right frame from the beginning, so this is probably all a bit damage control.

She has this thing for disposable toothbrushes, and she offers the same one she’s using. Another thing I didn’t mention earlier is that she has knack for teasing me with push-pull. I can’t remember the many examples, but after falling for it a few times, I picked up on it and would turn it around with my own push-pull to get her chasing me. Wish I could remember the earlier examples, but just know that her M.O. is push-pull to get me (and presumably other men) chasing her. I bring this up because I knew her disposable toothbrush flirt was a set-up for her next push-pull, so while I play along and take her toothbrush, I don’t take the bait and chase her. So I just sit there and keep brushing and wait for her next move, which created an opportunity for me lay down some sexual innuendo so I can set the stage for pulling her back to my place.

HER: So I got these other disposable toothbrushes because they vibrate. They really help clean my teeth even better!
ME: Right, specifically because they vibrate. (Said with a smirk.)
HER: Hey, that’s not what I meant!
ME: (Cut her off and change topics.)

I focus on getting her laughing some more to set up my push-pull, then at a high point, I tell her I’m going to go home (she already knows I’m just a few minutes away). As expected, she tells me to wait and asks if she wants to go shopping with her at the CVS next door. I have no intention to, but I’m curious what she has to say, so she starts writing this shopping list and asks if I could look for these items while she looks for other items. I laugh hard to myself and how blatant her attempt to get me chasing is, and I tell her I’m tired so I’m going to go home but if she wants to watch a movie, she can call or text me. I’m still not sure if it would have been better to actually ask her if she wants to (to get her to commit at the moment), but I opted to leave the ball on her court so she doesn’t have an opportunity to say “no.” Thoughts?

I walk out of her car and as I’m entering my car, I see her walking to CVS. I feel bad about leaving her so coldly, and make the mistake of walking up to her and trying to hug her good night. She fake pouts and rejects the hug—ouch! Lesson learned.

I quickly walk back to my car, feeling a little deflated, but whatever. I actually still had a strong hunch she’ll call or text me. Sure enough, she calls me an hour later. She asks if I was still awake and if she could use my shower if she brought a treat. LOL that has got to be the most bizarre excuse to visit a guy’s place at midnight.

When she shows up, it turns out her treats were some pastries. I also immediately ask for that hug she owed me, and she gives it to me. Nonetheless, this is an awkward situation for the two of us. It’s clear she wants plausible deniability, so she’s acting in accordance to it, and I’m trying to honor that. She takes a shower, and when she comes out, she’s got her halter top on and her towel wrapped around her bottom. She’s not wearing her pants. I’m not sure if she’s teasing me (so I should not take the bait yet) or if she’s hinting that she wants me to make a move. I decide to play it safe and ask her what movie she wants to watch. While she’s going through my DVDs, I ask if she wants to smoke some weed. She hesitates and says she better not. Did not expect that. We chat for another 5 minutes and I tease her if she’s found a movie yet. She hasn’t, so I suggest 2 movies, and she changes her mind and says she’s too tired for movies.

She then gets up, and pretends to slip her towel to quickly reveal the panties she’s wearing under her towel, and walks to my bedroom and tells me to wait while she puts on her pants. I take that as a sign that she wants me to make a move, so I ask her if she’s done yet and before she could walk out of my bedroom, I walk in. She gets fake mad about it and I tell her it’s not like I’ve never seen that before. She then asks if she can browse the internet, so I quickly sit on my chair and tell her she could. Instead of sitting on my lap (as we argued over last time), she leans beside me on the desk. I look at really boring websites so she gets bored, and she eventually lies on my bed asks about the books on my shelves. Bingo!

We talked a bit about philosophy the day before, so I wait until she asks about my philosophy book. At that point, I pull out the book and tell her I’ll read it to her.

We’re both extremely close to each other, where she’s on her back and I’m next to her looking down on her. After a minute of reading, I slow down my voice and then pause. Then go in for the kiss. She acts surprised that I want to kiss, gets up, and says she she should go home! I’m laughing to myself how much B.S. this is and don’t take it seriously at all. I pull myself back to chill and tell her that I would not want to do anything she doesn’t want to do, and that the door is in the other room if she wants to leave. She starts picking up her stuff and walks towards my door, but as expected, she stops at my door and doesn’t leave. I wait a bit to let it sink in with her that she decided to not leave (I don’t want her thinking I stopped her), and then I slowly walk towards with strong eye contact and get so close our noses are almost touching. I move my head towards her, but instead of kissing her, I was going to whisper in her ear that I forgot to lock the door, but she moves away before I do and she change topics (LOL). I actually did intend to kiss her, but I let the tension build up too much and for too long. Next time I go for the same move, I’ll see the deal. For those who want a visual of the move, see Chase’s advice below:

Also - this one's not a full on manhandle kiss, but because he's basically trapping her and giving her no choice, it qualifies just about as well - watch this scene from Rocky (skip to about 2:30):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmyc_clvhSc

Classic big, muscly, dumb caveman trapping the pretty, nervous girl, and clubbing her over the head with it.

What this kiss basically communicates is, "I know what you want better than you do, and I'm going to give it to you," and when you pull it off, women really go nuts.

There are actually a lot of moments like this where she’ll threaten something, but she never follows through, and I don’t take the bait because I know actions speak louder than her words (key to understanding mixed signals). I don’t remember exactly what happens next, but I switch up my M.O. with kino escalation, but if I place my hand on her shoulder, she would brush it off. I know this is all B.S. because my intention is clear, but she’s not leaving. This goes on for quite a bit, but I would try different areas of her body, and I would wait longer between attempts. I don’t get anywhere.

From here on out, there’s a ton more of resistance, but my memory is hazy, so I’ll try my best to describe what happens.

Things get really late, so we go to bed together. I go for the kiss again, and she acts surprised again and apologizes for leading me on (why she apologizes now is beyond me). I tell her that we’re both in bed together and it’s only natural that this happens. She tells me she likes me but something something (don’t remember her excuse) and I get into a discussion about it. She accuses me trying to mind fuck her and I ask her what she means by that. We talk about how many girls I’ve been with (I tell her I don’t count), etc. etc. etc. We talk for a bit, but I can’t remember exactly what. She finally adamantly blurts out that we’re not having sex. Instead of asking why not (to address her intellectual objection), I acquiesce, but this won’t be first time she says we’re not having sex, and I will eventually address it better then. She then asks if she can cuddle with me…as long as I promise not to do anything creepy. I agree, and plan to make things happen the next day or she’ll definitely auto-reject. I’m at the point of no return now.

I don’t remember clearly what happens when we wake up together in the afternoon, but at some point, I’m heavily petting her on her back and inner thigh. After several minutes, she’ll always ask what I’m doing, and I’ll play dumb and ask what does she mean (LOL). This must have gone on like 5 times, and I’m starting to realize she really wants sex, but she feels incredibly conflicted because she’s married and needs more plausible deniability. Since she’s stopping my blatant touching, I ask her if she’s ever played a game where her mom or friend drew letters and words on her back with their finger. We play that game, and I’m finally able to touch her more intimate areas (e.g. lower back, inner thigh) without any objections. After 15 minutes, she becomes entranced and aroused, so I make a note of her tattoos below her waist, and I pull down a side of her panties to get a better look…with no objections. I tell her I can color in her tattoo with markers, and she likes the idea. I tell her she’ll need to take off her pants so I can get at her tattoo. She hesitates and tells me to promise not to do anything funny (I’m still laughing at how absurd this promise is considering she’s taking off her pants). I promise, but she’s not convinced so I tell her her safe word is, “no.” I think she realizes how bad of a safe word that is (because girls always say “no” and this girl doesn’t want to actually stop me from escalating), so I quickly change my mind and tell her say “The phoenix is burning” if she wants me to ever stop. She likes this, and not only does she take off her pants, but she lies on her stomach on my bed and enthusiastically pulls down one side of her panties so I do my coloring. I also take off my shorts because it’s getting hot and it wouldn’t be fair that she's in her underwear but I’m not. She tells me the phoenix is burning, so I put my shorts back on (LOL).

After 10 minutes, I’m done, then we get to talking about more tattoos. She knows I was voted best artist in high school, so she asks if I can draw her a tattoo on her back. I tell her I can, but she’ll need to take off her top. She objects, but after some persistence, she says I’ll need to convince her I won’t do anything funny, so I tell her that body paint artists do this type of stuff all the time and nothing ever happens. She tells me she used to get her body painted at the Playboy Mansion, and takes her top her. She tells me not to peek, and I tell her it’s not like I’ve never seen boobs. She lies back down on her stomach and I draw her a fairy tattoo.

I don’t remember what happens next. I think I may have tried to kiss her again, and she objects and I tell her that she’s practically naked right now so it’s completely natural this happens. But I do remember feeling exhausted from her constant resistance, so I decided to raise the stakes by telling her I had to go leave my place to do something soon. She picks up my hint and asks if there’s something else I’d like to tell her. I nonchalantly tell her I just have something to do, so she asks if she can get another shower and leave (I know she has no intentions of leaving so this doesn't faze me one bit), and I’m thinking to myself that I would rather have sex with a freshly showered girl, so I tell her that's fine.

At some point, she opens the bathroom door to ask if the tattoo I drew would wash away. I go in the bathroom and she’s literally naked except for a towel wrapped around her. At some point, I ask if I can see her boobs, but in a very nonchalant way as if I just want to see how they look with no agenda. She objects by saying it would lead me on. I point out the absurdity of the situation…how she is naked and telling me this. After some back and forth, she finally shows her boobs (you have to remember the sexual tension at this point is incredibly high), and I nonchalantly tell her they are nice. I calmly ask her if she’s trimmed or shaved down there, and she jokes about how she used to have dreads down there. I tell her I don’t believe she can grow her hair that long down there. She finally drops her towel to show the rest of her body, and gets into the shower. I tell her I’m going to join her and she objects, and I again point out the absurdity of the situation. I take off my clothes and jump in the shower with her. She once again adamantly tells me we're not having sex, and this time, I'm prepared and ask her why, and I address it somewhat logically, but the bottom line is that I don't take it seriously.

It doesn’t take long before my dick gets hard, and after her initial poorly faked objections, we are showering together, with my dick hitting against her. We start chatting about something (obviously, there’s no way I can remember what the topic was at this point) and I start recalling all the failed attempts to kiss her. I also recall her telling me she read “50 Shades of Gray,” and while I’ve never read it, I know it’s essentially porn for women where women are overtaken by dominant men. I put 2 and 2 together and decide to manhandle her. Plus, we’re both freakin’ naked in a shower, and if that’s not a clear sign that she wants it, then I don’t know what is. Going for the same “Rocky” style kiss I attempted earlier at the door, I know not to overdo the sexual tension. As I get in for the kiss, she turns her head, but I grab her head and finally…FINALLY…I kiss her. And it was glorious as she finally melted into me, with the shower hitting above us. We make out for 5 minutes before I turn off the shower. I didn't want to escalate to sex in the shower because I didn't have condoms in the bathroom.

Unfortunately, she starts to resist my attempts to make out with her again, so I pull back to let her chill. I dry her off and she sits on my chair in my bedroom to browse the internet. I tell her to scoot over and sit on my lap, but she objects like a little brat. I interpret this as her attempt to regain control after our makeout session in the shower. So I tell her to stand up because I have a magic trick to show her. She objects for a bit, but after some commanding, she finally does and I tell her to take my hand, and I twirl her around while I take the seat. She pouts for a bit, and I tell her she can sit on my lap. She gives me a funny look and then smiles and sits on my lap. She then gets off my lap and says she should go so I can do whatever I needed to do. As she’s putting on her pants, I immediately knew I'm on the verge of probably losing her forever to auto-rejection, so I quickly stand up before she can even put one pant leg up, and push her onto my bed (this probably should have happened a long time ago) and tell her, “Not before we do this.” And we proceed to make out again.

She’s really into it and embracing me hard now, so it’s obvious by now that she wants me to manhandle her (this must be the plausible deniability she was looking for—she didn’t cheat on her husband; she was “forced” into it). But yet again, after a few minutes of making out, she pushes me off and tells me this is too soon. I ask her why and remind her that I would not do something she doesn’t want to do…and that she is always welcome to leave. She doesn’t leave and lies there with a really confused, conflicted look. I reason with her conflict by how if we don’t do this now, we may never get another chance. She reasons that if we’re having fun now, we can always have fun later. I tell her we should have fun in the moment when we the opportunity is there, and remind her again we may never get another chance. She asks how do I know we won’t get another chance, and I tell her that life happens. She doesn’t know how to respond, so I go in for the kiss again, but she pushes me back and says what we’re doing is wrong.

I talk about how what we’re doing is not wrong but only natural and right. This one was a real toughie for me, but I had just studied Aristotelian ethics, so I was able to explain in a succinct, concise way, and after she ran out of objections, I manhandle her for another makeout sessions. This time, she gets super aroused and starts biting me and kissing my nipples! I start to kiss her neck, ear, shoulders, all over…and gently bite her. As she gets aroused enough, I start to move my fingers to her vagina, but she pushes my hand away. A minute later, I go for it again, but was denied. I move to her nipples and she tells me to suck on them harder. I try to finger her again, but she pushes me off and expresses concerns that sex would ruin everything because that has been her experience. I tell her that she had sex with the wrong men. Eventually, I was able to resume things again.

As I’m fingering her, and she is approaching climax, she pushes me away yet again, and tells me she thinks things might work out with her husband. I ask her what is it that her husband is not doing. She goes silent and I tell her that it doesn’t sound like her husband is a perfect match for her (this might be a mistake since I’ve been making it clear to her that I’m not BF/husband material, and I’m not sure if it’s good to be the one to tell women that their BF/husband is not good). Then I reason with her that her husband can fulfill certain needs of hers and that I can fulfill certain needs of hers. She’s still silent over all this, and she finally blurts out, “I bet you don’t even have condoms.”

Of course, I have a lot of condoms, and we finally make love.

 

[The Byronic Man]

After we had made love, she cuddled up next me and we chatted for 20 minutes. She asked me about how I lost my virginity, and told her how she initiated sex and how we had sex 3 times that night. I mention this for reason I’ll talk about later. We then grabbed dinner at Denny’s. I finally probed about her husband, but she didn’t want to talk about it. She did accidentally reveal that her husband also took a shower with her naked, but he didn’t have sex with her until another 2 months later. I commented how long that took, but then realized how horrible that made her feel. Whoops. Quickly changed topics and made her feeling good again as I gave her a foot massage. There was another interesting point where she complained that I promised things won't get awkward after sex. I told her it's up to us to make things right and that for every change in life, whether it be a job promotion, moving to a better place, making new friends, there will always be an awkward phase. She seemed to like this answer as we were smiling and laughing just minutes after that.

At some point at Denny’s, I asked her what she looked forward to the next day. She told me she looked forward to another orgasm, and that she had a meeting early in the morning, and asked if she could take another shower and stay over.

When we pulled into my garage, we made out for a little while again. Back inside my place, I told her I’m going to the gym and will be back in about 1.5 hours. She hinted at waking her up to give her another orgasm when I come back.

By the time I come back, she’s asleep but didn’t want to have sex again. But more importantly, I wanted her to get enough rest for her meeting, which was 5 hours away. So I quietly slipped into bed.

In the morning, I woke her up for her meeting downtown. She had asked the night before if she could have a protein shake in the morning, which I had left on her purse. I had also left an extra toothbrush in the bathroom for her to use so she didn’t have to use one of her disposable ones. She took a morning shower (she apparently loves showers) and then asked me rub baby oil on her. I do so all over her upper body including her breasts. All this time, I’m still in my bed though because I don’t want to be too “boyfriendy” with her.

She finally tells me she’s going to leave, and I ask her for a kiss, but she suggests a hug instead. She’s been slightly nervous/awkward this whole morning, so I don’t think she’s playing games, and instead has some genuine concerns/reservations (again). Or maybe she feels bad that I didn't have sex with her again after my workout in the gym? I was afraid she may have buyer’s remorse (despite everything we did after sex), but she just texted me asking if I want to grab dinner. What do you guys think about her declining to kiss goodbye?

We are meeting again later in the week, and am thinking I go over some rules and expectations, e.g. kissing allowed in public, PDA or not, etc.

 

[The Byronic Man]

Guys, any specific GC articles/tips on handling LMR (or any resistance)? I feel like I should not have had all this resistance if I handled them better.

 

[Marty]

Wow... this reads like something out of Les liaisons dangereuses! I admire your iconoclasm, Byronic Man!

It makes me feel exhausted just to think about this kind of dragged-out seduction... I can't imagine how it felt to you. Great job on pushing through and overcoming each and every obstacle!

Do you think the fact that you are 5 years younger made her think she could get away with trying to challenge your leadership in that way?

This really illustrates for me the level of conflictedness that some women experience. Makes you grateful to be a man.

Smashing LR. Hope you give her want she wants a few more times

 

[The Byronic Man]

Do you think the fact that you are 5 years younger made her think she could get away with trying to challenge your leadership in that way?

Ha, I think so--she's said a few times that I need to respect my elders!

 

[Landlord]

I think it's amazing how focused you are on overcoming ltr, and how little you give a damn about your role in wrecking a marriage. You're a prick.

 

[Landlord]

You're a prick.

I'm sorry I said that. Its a Sore subject for me. Im a prick for posting that. i call 'foul' on myself.

What I mean is getting good at the game should not preclude being a nice person.
Yes she wanted to cheat, and perhaps what she said about her husband's neglect is true.
PERHAPS. You don't know what goes on inside someone else's marriage. And unless you've been married, you don't know what grief intrusion to that marriage causes.

But anyway, here are landlords top three reasons to stay away from married women:

1. BE DECENT TO ALL WOMEN: she was obviously conflicted, and for good reason. You don't need this one, you could give her a 'next' and let her sort her shit out. I'd say this goes to a lesser extent for single women too. There's "I don't know what I want" lmr, which is our job to fix. And then there's "I'm a human being dealing with some kind of serious shit in my life, and being 'gamed' is only going to make it worse." Personally I try to eject if that's the vibe I pick up. There's always another hb down the road and nobody deserves to be taken advantage of.

2. JUST DONT: Dude-- she's married. Have a little respect. An Affair with a married woman is just a douchebag move.

3. ITS NOT WORTH IT: Now there's potentially an enraged and humiliated husband out there who could learn what's going on, hunt you down, embarrass you at school or work, amongst your friends and family, hack your email, slash your tires, order unlimited pizzas to your house, beat the crap out of you or even end your life. Do not underestimate what an anfry jealous husband is capable of! and if tou think you wont get caught---Nobody ever shagged a married woman thinking they were going to get caught. Everybody gets caught.
It's not worth it.

So while I do apologize for my rash judgmental remark, I still think your focus on how to overcome ltr instead of the question of 'should I be overcoming ltr at all?' Is messed up. As is your cavalier attitude toward intruding in someone else's marriage.

 

[Landlord]

Lmr. Damn you autocorrect. But congrats on your wry sense of humor.

 

[luego]

While I personally have more issues with the "other man" situation, especially in marriages, I can't fathom a married woman smoking weed and staying overnight at a stranger's house. It just doesn't fit with my schemas at all. She was clearly looking for trouble, and she eventually found more than she could handle. While a less determined man/process likely wouldn't have closed that night, this is not a saveable marriage (and the woman is the real blameworthy one. He not only left her repeated outs, he literally left her and she came back).

 

[Landlord]

Yes she was absolutely looking for trouble.
She sure as shit did want to cheat, and also wanted to feel like it was 'not her fault.'

That's what was going on in HER head.
It does not matter one bit—I'm talking about what was going on in Byronic's head (or in your head, or in my head)

Writing it all up to 'she was asking for it' is a feeble, lame excuse to act like a douche bag.
Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong.
You don't fuck around with someone else's family...there are plenty of single women out there.

Even if she is hot.
Even if she wants to be persuaded.
Even if she makes it easy.

Who's the man, here, anyway?
We are.

 

[The Byronic Man]

Landlord, I value your honesty and input. However, it's clear your sense of ethics is different from mine, and I unfortunately think we'll need to discuss ethics in person. The internet is simply not conducive for such a deep and complex topic (i.e. I'd like to start with epistemology, leading up to the meta-ethics of the moral actor--is it a supernatural being, society, or the individual?). With that said, I had already decided beforehand that my course of action would be ethical (while considering the short- and long-term impact and risks). Your ethics tells you my course of action was not, so I think that's our point of contention. Curiously, your moral judgment did not require an understanding of my situation.

The owner of this website seems to share my sense of ethics when it comes to women with boyfriends and husbands. Do you take issue with him as well? I think it's reasonable to assume that members share the same ethical beliefs.

 

[Landlord]

Landlord, I value your honesty and input. However, it's clear your sense of ethics is different from mine, and I unfortunately think we'll need to discuss ethics in person. The internet is simply not conducive for such a deep and complex topic (i.e. I'd like to start with epistemology, leading up to the meta-ethics of the moral actor--is it a supernatural being, society, or the individual?). With that said, I had already decided beforehand that my course of action would be ethical (while considering the short- and long-term impact). Your ethics tells you my course of action was not, so I think that's our point of contention. Curiously, your moral judgment did not require an understanding of my situation.

Byron, you're an intelligent guy, but waxing philosophical about epistemology and meta-ethics does not mitigate the hideous effects of being betrayed by your spouse. The problem with ethical relativism is you'd probably feel different about the matter if it was YOUR wife fucking some other guy.

I've been on both sides of this fence and everybody suffers greatly.
There are 3 billion women on the planet.
Refer to Landlord's rule #2....just don't.

 

[The Byronic Man]

Landlord, I don't subscribe to ethical relativism. And because ethics is in the purview of philosophy (not neuroscience as many people mistakenly think), this is most certainly a philosophical topic (namely, the branch of meta-ethics, which has its basis in epistemology and meta-physics). 99% of ethical discussions do not go anywhere because the root of contention is not addressed. If we are to have a meaningful discussion, let's do so properly. It's a bit sad to see most people react so negatively towards philosophy.

 

[Landlord]

Byron this is not about philosophy.
It's about being good men--the best men we can be.
Elements of game-- courage, determination, practice, leadership---are part of that.
Applying game skills to overcome a married woman's resistance and begin the destruction of a family --- isn't.

Unless they have agreed to an open relationship, none of us has any business getting involved.
The golden rule still applies.

And no amount of semantic dissection can change that.

 

[-B-]

Of course, I have a lot of condoms, and we finally make love.

Of course, I have a lot of condoms, and we finally made adultery

 

[-B-]

Im just joking. Your persistence is fucking epic! Im going to be singing songs to my grandchildren about this one

 

[Marty]

There are too many sexy women who want to throw themselves at me

In terms of visualizing an end-goal to this process, I'd say this summarizes it pretty neatly!

Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong.

I'm sure Byronic doesn't need my support, but it is my opinion that characterizing as "wrong" something which two consenting adults want to do to each other, just because a third party (uninvolved in this particular activity) doesn't really want them to do it, is ethically problematic. A little further down that path, and you reach Nineteen Eighty-Four.

I'm with Chase and Franco on this one:

Personally, I've progressively defined a girl being "yours" further and further as I've aged. When I was young, a girl was "mine" if we had some good flirtation going. Then later she was only mine if I'd slept with her. Later still, I started thinking a girl would really only be yours if you had children with her.

I've reached a point now where I don't think a girl is ever "yours." She's just a girl, and she may be with you now, and she may be in the future, or she may be with someone else. Trying to stake a claim in another person is not a good way of going about things. The better way is to think, "I will give her amazing experiences, to make her want to stay with me as long as she likes, and share amazing experiences back with me."

When I look back on past relationships, I tended to do things wrong once I started thinking of a girl as "mine." That seems to be the point at which you let up, stop focusing on fulfilling her needs so much, and the relationship tips into decline. Relationships are healthier, happier, and much more fulfilling when you never consider a girl "yours," and never consider her heart having been completely won, and instead always consider her a girl whose heart must be won again and again, every single day.

Another belief of mine that I'd like to point out is something that Chase has also mentioned before: a girl is never your property. You never "own" her, even after marriage. So in my mind, you can never "steal" a girl from someone because she was never anyone's property to begin with. You need to continue to satisfy your girl in a way that makes her WANT to be with you.

On the other hand, Landlord, I'm fully aware that your view probably represents the majority opinion in society, and along with Byronic and the two bigshots quoted above, I am in a small minority even in these relatively enlightened times

 

[Whizzy]

You also gave her amply reasons and excuses to leave if she wanted too, but she chose to stay which is one of the most important factors

 

[Landlord]

@Marty:

"characterizing as "wrong" something which two consenting adults want to do to each other, just because a third party (uninvolved in this particular activity) doesn't really want them to do it, is ethically problematic. A little further down that path, and you reach Nineteen Eighty-Four."

There are two logical fallacies to this statement:

1. That the third party is 'uninvolved.' He is merely 'unaware'. Marriage is a partnership contract, and one in which 99% of the time, the parties have agreed to exclusivity as seems to be the case in Byronic's report. This husband has suffered loss of exclusivity, intimacy and a number of other explicit mutual expectations of marriage, and has gained liabilities such as increased risk to STD's and potential personal and financial loss if the activity begins a path to further deception or divorce. He is involved. he just does not know it....YET.

2. That characterizing adultery (or any other deceptive or damaging act) as 'wrong' is penultimate to a 1984 scenario. I believe this is called the 'Fallacy of False Continuum'. Look it up if interested. An Orwellian big brother situation is an undesirable outcome....Fine. This does not mean we need have ZERO sense of decency to others and self control of our behavior.

LMR from a married woman is not the same as LMR from a single girl who does not want to seem like a slut or even a slutty girl who is cheating on her boyfriend...deciding to break the exclusivity commitment of marriage, risk divorce and cause harm to one's spouse is a REAL moral and practical precipice, and WE are laying a heavy heavy hand in pushing her over it for our own selfish benefit.

As a group of men interested in the art & science of seduction, are we so lacking in integrity and so unscrupulous in our pursuit of a lay that we simply don't give a damn about the destruction we cause in other peoples' lives?

That sounds pretty sociopathic to me.