LR Insane resistance from married chick

[Landlord]

Another way to say it is that learning Game at a high level gives us great power, and 'with great power comes great responsibility.'

 

[The Tool]

Cant agree with Landlord more on everything.

As a group of men interested in the art & science of seduction, are we so lacking in integrity and so unscrupulous in our pursuit of a lay that we simply don't give a damn about the destruction we cause in other peoples' lives?

Another way to say it is that learning Game at a high level gives us great power, and 'with great power comes great responsibility.'

BOOM. *Mic Drop*

 

[Richard]

I'll chime in on this one.

I don't mean to disrespect anyone's moral standings, nor do I mean to attack anyone in any way. I do, however, want to discuss my own views on the matters like these, so take it with a grain of salt.

For me, I'm a man who draws the line at "I have a boyfriend," or "I have a husband." When a girl verbalizes that to me, I'm waving my flag and retreating out of respect for an already existing relationship. Situations are different when I sleep with a girl and find out she has a boyfriend after the fact. BUT! I do not push forward intentionally knowing a girl is already committed, unless circumstances exist:
-She's being abused
-She's not allowed to leave
-He's substantially damaged her will

And on no other terms will I push forward, and here's why:
* I know the pain, and dangers of being cheated on, and finding out that someone you love cheated. If it wasn't for my willpower, I would have probably committed suicide after experiencing that heartbreak.
* Logically speaking, when you have abundance, it's easier to move on to another woman anyway, unless the circumstances above exist. Logically, married women and committed women give more challenges to us as seducers.
* The personal effects (for both the woman and her committed partner) are enough to cause dramatic repercussions in the future, such as leading the husband to never trust women again, or leading the woman to hate herself for what she did at your hands. I've seen all of these happens, and lost a close friend whose wife cheated because a man took advantage of a moment of weakness she had, and he exploited it.

As a student of seduction, and as a student of social skills/conversation/relationships, it's much easier to spare the temporary pleasure than it is to live with the repercussions of causing a woman to cheat.

As pleasure goes, sleeping with a married woman: that pleasure will not last, and your happiness and joy levels will return to homeostasis relatively soon. So, for me, I see no reason in destroying an existing relationship, when both a) the repercussions can and likely will be severe and b)abundance allows us to move on to easier women who provide the same pleasure.

To re-iterate, I don't mean to offend anyone, and I don't mean to devalue anyone's existing morals, or ideologies. I just wanted to give my input on the matter.

Cheers,

-Richard

 

[Ryan]

I'll chime in on this one.

I don't mean to disrespect anyone's moral standings, nor do I mean to attack anyone in any way. I do, however, want to discuss my own views on the matters like these, so take it with a grain of salt.

For me, I'm a man who draws the line at "I have a boyfriend," or "I have a husband." When a girl verbalizes that to me, I'm waving my flag and retreating out of respect for an already existing relationship. Situations are different when I sleep with a girl and find out she has a boyfriend after the fact. BUT! I do not push forward intentionally knowing a girl is already committed, unless circumstances exist:
-She's being abused
-She's not allowed to leave
-He's substantially damaged her will

And on no other terms will I push forward, and here's why:
* I know the pain, and dangers of being cheated on, and finding out that someone you love cheated. If it wasn't for my willpower, I would have probably committed suicide after experiencing that heartbreak.
* Logically speaking, when you have abundance, it's easier to move on to another woman anyway, unless the circumstances above exist. Logically, married women and committed women give more challenges to us as seducers.
* The personal effects (for both the woman and her committed partner) are enough to cause dramatic repercussions in the future, such as leading the husband to never trust women again, or leading the woman to hate herself for what she did at your hands. I've seen all of these happens, and lost a close friend whose wife cheated because a man took advantage of a moment of weakness she had, and he exploited it.

As a student of seduction, and as a student of social skills/conversation/relationships, it's much easier to spare the temporary pleasure than it is to live with the repercussions of causing a woman to cheat.

As pleasure goes, sleeping with a married woman: that pleasure will not last, and your happiness and joy levels will return to homeostasis relatively soon. So, for me, I see no reason in destroying an existing relationship, when both a) the repercussions can and likely will be severe and b)abundance allows us to move on to easier women who provide the same pleasure.

To re-iterate, I don't mean to offend anyone, and I don't mean to devalue anyone's existing morals, or ideologies. I just wanted to give my input on the matter.

Cheers,

-Richard

I agree with the essence of what you're saying. It would be incredibly selfish to leave a woman as an emotional wreck for just a few fleeting lustful moments with you while she was in a relationship. If she still has any feelings for the guy, then i agree, stay well away. If she seems reluctant, i won't do it.

But if she shows positive body language when you flirt with her, and she seems to be in an relationship with no easy way out (e.g. long-term/boring marriage or abusive boyfriend, etc), then by all means do what you like, because i don't think the woman will then view the encounter negatively when she compares your romance with her lifeless relationship. And if the husband/boyfriend does find out, then serves him damn right for not treating his woman the way he should.

 

[Richard]

Exactly that,

When a girl is in an abusive/degrading/ or otherwise bad relationship, I feel a moral obligation to help them overcome it because I can't stand to see guys abuse women, or see people's potentials being opressed.

My first girlfriend actually, I helped her out of her controlling relationship, and she fell for me in the process.

 

[Marty]

Landlord:

You got me on the continuum fallacy; you're right and I admit fault with my reasoning there.

But on the contractual issue—I don't know much about law, but the idea that you can contractually oblige someone to refrain from sexual activity is frankly offensive to me. It might be accepted in cultures such as Saudi Arabia or Iran, but I feel it contradicts the spirit of the European civilizations or their descendants in the New World and Antipodes. Though I have heard about "alienation of affection" and such, so you may be right legally speaking.

It also strikes me that much of the modern-day hysteria surrounding fidelity (witness the Tiger Woods case for example) is a relatively recent development driven by the sensationalist media. Earlier generations seemed to deal with the issue of extramarital relationships, which have existed as long as marriage itself, in a much more nuanced and sympathetic way, as demonstrated in great works of literature such as Anna Karenina or Jane Eyre.

Richard's position—that if she tells him she's attached, he leaves off—is perfectly tenable and internally consistent. But I don't see why the woman should be prohibited from enjoying intimacy with a man who takes a different position, and I just don't like to think that as a "fourth party" I would want to come in and criticize Byronic for an imagined offense to a man he doesn't know and has no obligation toward. Like Franco said, you can't steal her because he doesn't own her in the first place.

-Marty

 

[Richard]

Richard's position—that if she tells him she's attached, he leaves off—is perfectly tenable and internally consistent. But I don't see why the woman should be prohibited from enjoying intimacy with a man who takes a different position, and I just don't like to think that as a "fourth party" I would want to come in and criticize Byronic for an imagined offense to a man he doesn't know and has no obligation toward. Like Franco said, you can't steal her because he doesn't own her in the first place.

While I don't disagree that nobody owns anybody in a relationship, you can't steal her because he doesn't own her in the first place <-- I agree with that.

But, take a relationship that exists outside of the qualities I mentioned, and the two people usually and generally have an exclusivity to their opposite. So, the man doesn't own her, instead the girl chooses to be exclusive to him, and chooses to be his (of sorts). Now, take that girl who otherwise would want and would be exclusive to that single guy, and add a moment of weakness, add an experienced seducer who can manipulate her, add any number of things then think about the repercussions of that mistake on her part.

However, I'm speaking biasedly because I know the pain of having your heart broken by a girl you love, and I don't wish that kind of pain on anybody, and if I can prevent two people from feeling that, then I will.

For you guys who are okay with sleeping with married women, I have no ill-will for you guys, your lives are your lives. I'm speaking my piece, and maybe introducing information you guys may not have considered before. Far be it from me to tell anybody what they should or shouldn't do

 

[Landlord]

Im curious.....have Any of you boys ever been married?

 

[Richard]

Im curious.....have Any of you boys ever been married?

Nope, only 18 years old. Closest I was to marriage, was seriously discussing marrying my first girlfriend who I felt was sure to stay in my future forever, but no ring on any fingers as of yet.

 

[Ryan]

Exactly that,

When a girl is in an abusive/degrading/ or otherwise bad relationship, I feel a moral obligation to help them overcome it because I can't stand to see guys abuse women, or see people's potentials being opressed.

My first girlfriend actually, I helped her out of her controlling relationship, and she fell for me in the process.

Interestingly, if you read the biographies of Casanova, you'll find that most of his seductions don't involve single women or women with good lives. The majority of his seductions seemed to involve damsels-in-distress (those from boring/toxic marriages or abusive husbands). After a few weeks of intimacy with them, he would later find a suitable man for the woman. He would then introduce them to each other, and then quietly leave the scene eventually to begin the cycle again with another woman.

I think this is a morally acceptable way of dealing with women in relationships; i don't see how it can be any different in this day and age compared to Casanova's. Though i question how easy it would be for Casanova to find a worthy enough man in the world today.

 

[Ryan]

Im curious.....have Any of you boys ever been married?

Nope, only 18 years old. Closest I was to marriage, was seriously discussing marrying my first girlfriend who I felt was sure to stay in my future forever, but no ring on any fingers as of yet.

You're 18?!

I thought you were in your early 20's. I need to work harder to catch up!

 

[The Tool]

Im curious.....have Any of you boys ever been married?

If all goes well with my GF hopefully someday

and I'm only 21

now, take that girl who otherwise would want and would be exclusive to that single guy, and add a moment of weakness, add an experienced seducer who can manipulate her, add any number of things then think about the repercussions of that mistake on her part.

Boom. We as seducers know what we are doing. Key word MANIPULATE. DONT BE THAT FUCKING GUY!! THERE ARE 3.5 billion women on this earth. 51% are single that leaves about 1.75 billion single women in the world. TAKE YOUR PICK OF THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Tool]

But the male is to blame "especially if he is engorged in the seduction arts such as ourselves" for we can do a lot more in situations like this than an Average man can under the same/similar circumstances. I.E we know how to move feelings and ideals to get the lay. Where an average man would AFC out.

 

[Landlord]

I do not think the male is to blame for honestly portraying himself to a married woman who chose to sleep with him.

Try telling that to the husband as he lunges toward you with a knife.

 

[Richard]

Drexel,

As a man of psychology yourself, you should know that a seducer can effectively target a girl's brain, and bypass her logical portion of the brain. Her neo-cortex.

Any man good with women can manipulate her limbic system, and hit her emotional brain regions, effectively influencing manipulation which can cause her to have emotional thoughts instead of logical ones.

It'd be the fault of the man for consciously manipulating her thought/emotional processes.

In a moment of emotional manipulation, a girl can completely forget about an existing commitment, or can be manipulated into downplaying the seriousness of her existing commitment. Thus, the decision is his, making her think it's hers.

 

[The Tool]

Thus, the decision is his, making her think it's hers.

*MIC DROP*

 

[Landlord]

My last post on this string....I'm tired.

All this abstract talk about philosophy and ethics and logic is just that—ABSTRACT.
Any logical position can be argued and defended.
As a guy more than double some of your ages who has been 'Other Man', 'Husband' AND 'Cuckhold' I call "Bullshit" on the justifications and rationalizations.

The bottom line is still the Golden Rule:
If you're not OK with some other guy fucking your wife, then don't fuck someone else's wife.

A boy behaves according to the whims of his desires and emotions.
A man behaves according to values and self discipline.

Peace, out homies! ;>)

 

[The Tool]

A man who takes advantage of women in moments of weakness is not a seducer--he's a bully.

EXACTLY THIS IS WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO SAY!!! this is why we get pissed off when we read stuff (Dont mean to call out a certain someones past post) when someone talks about escalating with a woman who has a boyfriend (say in a bar or else where) who has just gottin into an argument or is mad at their boyfriend and looking for some sort of "out" or "revenge" SHE IS IN A MOMENT OF WEAKENESS!! AND WE AS SEDUCERS KNOW EXACTLY WHICH BUTTONS TO PUSH TO GET WHAT WE DESIRE. Its not 100% fool Proof but our odds are much better than the average man. AND THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME SHE REGRETS HER DECISION. THIS EQUALS TO YOUR ACTIONS HURTING A WOMAN. yes you could say she is responsible for her own actions as well. In which case she is. But she is not in a 100% "clear" state of mind

The way you have described seduction is, at its core, an objectification of women.

I by name means am suggesting that women are objects. (dont know where you got this idea) I am simply stating that we as seducers have better odds at getting what we want and taking advantage of situations than an average man in the same/similar circumstances.

I agree with Landlord. Follow the Golden Rule. WOULD YOU WANT SOMEONE ELSE TO FUCK YOUR WIFE OR GIRLFRIEND?? (Dont bring into this how you dont like monogomy or marriage) (I am speaking to you as if you follow the social norm as most people do)

For example.A year ago I had an opportunity to escalate with a girl I always wanted to since high school. (Her BF is a good friend of mine) She was having a moment of weakness with said boyfriend. and She was coming onto me strong (but leaving alot of plausable deniability) while being toiled in her emotions. I seriously thought about doing it but my morals overcame me. I didnt want to ruin a 6 year relationship and a relationship with 2 of my good friends. SO I DID NOTHING. I relied on my abundance and moved on. (NOW THESE 2 People are engaged) (and she never cheated on him once, I know because she confides in me when she needs psychological advice). In essence what I am saying is BE THE BETTER MAN!!!! FIND A WOMAN THAT HAS NOT MADE A VERBAL AGREEMENT TO BE EXCLUSIVE!!! CHOOSE YOUR PICK OUT OF THE 1.75 BILLION WOMEN THAT ARE SINGLE!!!!!!!!

If seducers are such expert manipulators that women cannot resist our charms....why does every one of us get rejected more than we succeed?

The answere to this question is simple and it has essentially been stated by me before. I am not saying that we do not get rejected. In fact it happens alot at first. And as your skill level rises (not to toot my own horn, but to the skill level of you, myself and Z) you get rejected alot less because you know your process, you know how things work, you know which women you can get with, and who are going to be more open to your charms. Id go as far as to say that at my peak seduction skills (before my relationship of course) That I would bring home and escalate with 4/5 women that I would get on a date, and 3/5 women whose numbers I got I could get out on a date. I was more of an advocate of the "quality approach" over "quantity approach" makes for alot more success and I am not going to go into detal about that on this thread.

Now to essentially answere the Question without directly answereing it. I will reiterate what I said. WE CAN DO ALOT MORE WITH A WOMAN THAN AN AVERAGE MAN COULD IN THE SAME/SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES. Therefore we have an advantage. WE ARE the 1%.

 

[Richard]

Drexel,

I agree that women are not objects, nor are they to be manipulated.But that's my, and as you've said your, view. Not everybody shares that belief, and frequent readers on the site absorb all the articles they can, like this one:

View Women as Objects

So its pretty safe to say that newer guys who see this, and older guys who are this exist, and objectification does exist.

It is very much my opinion that Game only "works" with women who are VERY consciously

I don't run game, so I've got nothing to respond with here.

If seducers are such expert manipulators that women cannot resist our charms....why does every one of us get rejected more than we succeed?

Speaking for myself, I've got a lot more successes than rejections, except for when I was first starting out. I'm a target approacher, not a shotgun approacher. I choose women and approach because I can read their vibes/emotions, and get a good idea of who someone is just by looking and taking in.

Now, according to Wikipedia,

Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics. By advancing the interests of the manipulator, often at another's expense, such methods could be considered exploitative, abusive, devious and deceptive

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on what goes on when a man consciously pushes forward with a married, or otherwise committed woman.

 

[Sly]

Don't mean to interject into a conversation that I haven't been a part of, but I find this topic very interesting.

Haven been cheated on by my ex-GF of a 3 year plus relationship- with whom she cheated on me with an old friend, I was heartbroken. Honestly a complete and total mess. Initially I was enraged with both my ex and by so called "friend" but after some time of reasoning came to this conclusion: My GF was supposedly committed to me as she vowed exclusivity to me. My old "friend' had no substantial commitment to anybody. He wasn't in a relationship. He honestly didn't owe me anything...

For this reason, I began to believe all the blame was to be placed on my Ex, haven completely disregarded the value of our relationship! I was pissed at my "friend" but thought how could I be mad that he wanted to fool around with an attractive girl.

After coming to this realization, I made a rule for myself that I would only hook-up with girls with bfs, I didn't know. With my previous flawed logic, I believed women I hit on in relationships, should be making the morality calls and not me.

Since then I have revised my opinion on this matter. I will not hook-up with a girl in relationships PERIOD! She can be happily in a relationship or hate her boyfriend- it doesn't make a difference to me! Until she's single, she's off limits... Let me tell you why: Before I was placing the complete moral obligation on the girl as she was in a relationship, completely disregarding my moral duty. I believed because I didn't have any obligation of exclusivity to anyone, I was scott free from any moral obligation. In actuality I have a moral obligation to myself as a human being-to treat others like I want to be treated! Any one who disagree's with this, is just downright foolish and cannot expect to ever have a faithful relationship!

Just as Landlord said:

If you're not OK with some other guy fucking your wife, then don't fuck someone else's wife.

Don't lie to yourself and say there would be any situation where you'd be fine with your wife/gf cheating on you! So be a man, not an animal and control your urges! There are a billion other women out there to pick from. If you're actually good at pick-up it shouldn't be an issue. Plus turning down that girl in a relationship will just make her want it more when she's single.

Take the high road guys, cause Karma is a bitch!

SLY