To Kiss or Not to Kiss on dates

[Witcher]

Hello everyone,

I am currently working on refining my process with girls and make it more consistent with the fewest moving part possible. In this context, I tried to find the best practices in the community. Things like:

1. Make her do most of the talking
2. Try to get her on the first date and/or as fast as possible
3. Use texting for scheduling
4. Always manage ASD and give girls plausible deniability
5. The men must lead the interaction toward intimacy

However, when It comes to Kissing which is also a common aspect of seduction, I struggle to find which is the best practice. There seems to be no commonly agreed best way to doing it( please correct me if I'm wrong and missed this crucial part in some popular article or book). So far I found 4 ways of using Kissing in a seduction:

1. If we want to lay girl on the first date we should not kiss until full isolation. This is the main GC advice and modus operandi on the matter.
2. If we don't plan to lay the girl on the first date we should Kiss at the end of the first date. Advised in GC in the "Get Girlfriend Process" but not usually recommended in other articles or books. It is also recommended in the old Mystery Method usually during the C2 Phase.
3. If we aim to lay the girl on a second date, we should absolutely avoid kissing her on that first date. This is also seen in GC and one of the central tenets of another coach of the community BlackDragon.
4. We definitely should kiss or even have a makeout session with the girl during the date we plan to lay her before full isolation. This is advised by veterans like BlackDragon and even earlier pioneers like Maniac_High who recommends to always first have a short make out session before inviting the girl home.

Now, when It comes to me, I would say that I tried them all but not with enough girls to know which one is really the best. However, for the moment I tend toward the following:

• If I don't plan to lay her on the first date, I will try to Kiss her at the end or in the middle of the date. It will prevent auto-rejection and I prefer that the girl knows at the end that my intention toward her is not a platonic one. It differentiates me from the other guys in my environment since I live in a kind of conservative one where guys will usually refrain from it. It's also a way to unlock that level with the girl.
  
• If I plan to lay the girl on the first date, I will get to a kiss or even full make out before isolation. Why? Because it makes it easier for me to invite them home after that to continue. I know this may not be the best option but I still not have that smoothness and nonchalance to ask a girl home to go watch a movie (or anything else) while on a date.

I am maybe overthinking all this. But I would love to hear your comments and opinion about, as they used to call it in the old ASF, the Kiss Close!

 

[Grand Pooba]

As you can see just from your list above, there's a lot of confusion when it comes to kissing.

Instead, I will lay it out like this:
- NOT KISSING can create or maintain sexual tension while also leaving your intent mysterious, making a girl want to chase you. However, if you've not already created tension, then it just feels platonic to a girl.
- KISSING deflates sexual tension, but if done for an extended time creates heavy arousal. However, kissing can also create ASD and leave a girl feeling slutty if done in public, while also making your intentions well known to her and removing any mystery.

So with these in mind, I believe:
- Don't kiss at the end of a date no matter what, it's better to leave tension and mystery - and you want to focus on raising tension on your date, while making her chase you if it's not clear if she'll see you again assuming she had fun.
- It's okay to kiss in the middle of the date if your goal is to arouse her in order to successfully invite her home soon after. Kissing works really well in the middle of a date to arouse before bringing her home (if arousal is her reason for holding back from a home invite), or when she's already at your home and you're going for sex.
- However, if you kiss her and then don't invite home, or she rejects the invite home after your kisses, you're pretty fucked.

I also think that this is highly subjective based on who you ask. I've never had success with kissing girls at the end of a first date - for me it always deflates too much tension or gives away too much power, and I never see good results from girls after they kiss me. In fact, usually girls are super excited to kiss me at the end of a first date - but if I kiss them, it's almost guaranteed I won't see them again (too much sexual tension and mystery of my intent lost). However, guys like Franco seem to know how to kiss while maintaining tension, so it seems to work well for them.

 

[Fuck This]

I think a kiss during a venue change can help transition a date to a more sexual nature as long as the new venue supports that feeling. From a restaurant to a quiet intimate bar, from the bar to your place or hers. it is like a "firm dribble for more bounce"

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

Witcher dude! I think this is a really good question and one I have had mixed results with. I think grand pooba summarises it very well and do think you can get away with it if ya vibe is right like for franco. Ironically I have had the opposite response to pooba where I have had girls kiss me at the end but then not bother again, where I have made the move and seen them. I've also seen them disappear after so very mixed for me dude.

I would also like to point out an article that I can't find currently where it says don't wait to the end before you kiss her. It's cliche, predictable and can put too much pressure on it. If she'll kiss you at the end she'll kiss earlier an ya have missed out on having more fun. If I recall correctly it even suggested to start like that. This sets the scene that it is a boy girl thing.

This however kills mystery, an if ya can't fully escalate it could all be wasted. Some girls won't sleep with ya on the first date an if ya make a clear push they know eventually if they see ya again what's gonna happen.

I think a lot depends on context, where ya have met them an if you've previously met them through night game or social circle.

If it's used to build an break sexual tension properly you can get a lot of mileage from it dude

 

[Witcher]

As you can see just from your list above, there's a lot of confusion when it comes to kissing.

Instead, I will lay it out like this:
- NOT KISSING can create or maintain sexual tension while also leaving your intent mysterious, making a girl want to chase you. However, if you've not already created tension, then it just feels platonic to a girl.
- KISSING deflates sexual tension, but if done for an extended time creates heavy arousal. However, kissing can also create ASD and leave a girl feeling slutty if done in public, while also making your intentions well known to her and removing any mystery.

So with these in mind, I believe:
- Don't kiss at the end of a date no matter what, it's better to leave tension and mystery - and you want to focus on raising tension on your date, while making her chase you if it's not clear if she'll see you again assuming she had fun.
- It's okay to kiss in the middle of the date if your goal is to arouse her in order to successfully invite her home soon after. Kissing works really well in the middle of a date to arouse before bringing her home (if arousal is her reason for holding back from a home invite), or when she's already at your home and you're going for sex.
- However, if you kiss her and then don't invite home, or she rejects the invite home after your kisses, you're pretty fucked.

I also think that this is highly subjective based on who you ask. I've never had success with kissing girls at the end of a first date - for me it always deflates too much tension or gives away too much power, and I never see good results from girls after they kiss me. In fact, usually girls are super excited to kiss me at the end of a first date - but if I kiss them, it's almost guaranteed I won't see them again (too much sexual tension and mystery of my intent lost). However, guys like Franco seem to know how to kiss while maintaining tension, so it seems to work well for them.

I just really saw all of this!
I agree with you on the fact that kissing girls remove a lot of mystery. My problem is more that, my sexual tension still needs work, I'm always afraid that if I don't finish a date with a sexual move, aka Kissing, the girl may think that our interaction is platonic (direction friendzone) or go on auto rejection. I'm considering replacing the Kiss with the 60 Years of Challenge Hand caressing as an alternative and more efficient ITS On Moment.
I also still thinking when on a date I should do the Handcaressing, in the venue? When we walk from a venue to another?

 

[naturalmikey]

kissing is fine. just don’t get lost in the makeout. i like to bait her into trying to kiss me by acting like i’m going to kiss her. if she doesn’t fall for it act like she has an eye lash on her face and brush it off. if she takes the bait pull away. you can even be like i don’t even know you like that. then give her a kiss if you want but pull away first. just leave her wanting more. just plain not kissing could come across as very platonic.

for where i’m at i don’t really care. the only real rule i gave is don’t make out until your at the sex location. a makeout can possibly further spike her buying temperature. it can also drop it to sub zero. the issue is it’s so validating. if a girl wants to be fully validated by me she’s going to have to fuck new to get it. then she still won’t. but i want her always chasing it.

this isn’t always the case. it also isn’t always necessary. if she really wants to make out and it’s clear we’re fucking i’ll make out with her. showing too little interest can lose a girl, although far less often as too much interest. calibrating to the specific chickcomes from experience. you will never be always correct. erring on the side of caution is just not making out. but you better communicate sexuality in some way. you don’t want her to come back to your house thinking you really are there just to watch spongebob and play scrabble.

depends on your goal too @Grand Pooba and @Fluxcapacitor seem to be discussing dating strategies. @Fuck This and me are taking about fucking strategies. kissing at the end of the date? if we’re not fucking on the first date that means she could resist me which means the sexual chemistry isn’t strong enough to see each other again. every girl will fuck the right guy on a first date. attraction and arousal are not a choice.

 

[Witcher]

kissing is fine. just don’t get lost in the makeout. i like to bait her into trying to kiss me by acting like i’m going to kiss her. if she doesn’t fall for it act like she has an eye lash on her face and brush it off. if she takes the bait pull away. you can even be like i don’t even know you like that. then give her a kiss if you want but pull away first. just leave her wanting more. just plain not kissing could come across as very platonic.

for where i’m at i don’t really care. the only real rule i gave is don’t make out until your at the sex location. a makeout can possibly further spike her buying temperature. it can also drop it to sub zero. the issue is it’s so validating. if a girl wants to be fully validated by me she’s going to have to fuck new to get it. then she still won’t. but i want her always chasing it.

this isn’t always the case. it also isn’t always necessary. if she really wants to make out and it’s clear we’re fucking i’ll make out with her. showing too little interest can lose a girl, although far less often as too much interest. calibrating to the specific chickcomes from experience. you will never be always correct. erring on the side of caution is just not making out. but you better communicate sexuality in some way. you don’t want her to come back to your house thinking you really are there just to watch spongebob and play scrabble.

depends on your goal too @Grand Pooba and @Fluxcapacitor seem to be discussing dating strategies. @Fuck This and me are taking about fucking strategies. kissing at the end of the date? if we’re not fucking on the first date that means she could resist me which means the sexual chemistry isn’t strong enough to see each other again. every girl will fuck the right guy on a first date. attraction and arousal are not a choice.

I would lve to elaborate in this more but before that can you tell what you mean by Fucking Strategy and Dating strategy?

 

[naturalmikey]

I would lve to elaborate in this more but before that can you tell what you mean by Fucking Strategy and Dating strategy?

basically lover vs provider. not every guy is going to be able to fuck a lot of girls on first dates. these are guys that get lumped into a provide category. then there are lovers. these guys can fuck on a first date but offen the girl won’t want to see them again due to lack of long term possibilities, if they’re looking for a provider.

the way that i like to circumvent this is by lover turning provider with girls i want to see again who are possibly looking for a provider. i do this by using push pull with emotional vlulnerability. so just throwing “it’s weird but it feels different with you.” “you know it’s hard for me to open up, but i want to.” “i know i seem like a cool guys, but deep down i’m sensitive and i want to be nice with you.” it’s like your are one way (lover) and she is turning you into a provider and you want to but you just don’t know how. watch the movie cruel intentions. it is the perfect example of this. or any soap opera. just make the shit like a movie.

 

[naturalmikey]

here’s a little mini field report. i’m posting it here as it pertains to kissing.

last night i meet a girl at 9:45 at my favorite date spot. a wine bar in venice ca. she drove over a half hour so i buy her a glass of wine. i get myself a water.

we sit in a very intimate where seating is side by side. we talk mostly fairly platonic fluff getting to know you stuff. she has a soft voice i can barely here over the music. so i sit right next to her and rest my forearm on her leg. this is the most physicality we engage in. we’re getting along but she’s not super open and free.

after her glass of wine i recommend going to the bar across the street. there i order her a drink and myself a soda water and lime. after maybe five minutes she mentions she has to be up at seven. this means either she’s planning her escape or letting me know if we’re gonna fuck i need to shorten the time line.

so i decided to using kissing as a compliance test basically to see how open she is to going home with me. i grab her by the small of the back and give her a kiss and pull away. she clearly wants more. so i was like do you wanna go back to my house. didn’t even say to watch a movie or play scrabble or anything. she’s like yeah. so i give her another kiss to reward her. she finishes her drink and is ready to bounce. if i would’ve gone into full make out i might have lost her. she was pretty dtf so probably not. but this is the way to handle this sort of situation in my experience.

but there are so many situations you have to experience them until it becomes intuitive. i knew exactly what to do because i’ve been on hundreds of dates in the past three and a half years. it gets easier.

when i was less experienced i was kind of scared. so i wouldn’t escalate for a while. then i’d go in the bathroom and look in the mirror and tell myself “if you don’t make a move it’s not happening.” this worked. after gaining confidence i would then start making a move much earlier and lose interest as i hadn’t built compliance and had over validated. pickup is mostly a game of over corrections when you’re new.

 

[Tony D]

When I kiss at the end of a first date, I just say something to keep the tension, and the push pull dynamic, like "Oh, wow. How did that happen? I don't know if I'm ready for this." Or I blame her, "Stop doing this to me. What are you doing to me?"

That leaves a little bit of the game open to her. So it's not just assumed that the next time we meet up we're going to make out.

I used to leave making out to build sexual tension, but now I just try to kiss every date, if I like her, as fast as possible and just assume my value is high enough that she'll want to have sex with me anyway.

 

[Cody Lyans]

TBH the best way is to kiss with indifference. Like, get her a glass of water, say she looks cute give her a quick peck then go and get another glass for yourself. This introduces crazy amounts of tension cuz she wants more. Then you change location to the bed or the couch, and playfully touch her, and joke, and she'll get all riled up and look at you with crazy eyes.

So... yeah, forgo the kisses on dates if you like, but instead use a hug, or a hand hold, or a brush of her hair, or a stroke of a bra strap cuz it looks cool or whatever. This way you keep it "on the fringes" or on the "edge" which girls find hotter (like side boob or under boob can be hotter). And yeah, you tease it out like that.

 

[Witcher]

When I kiss at the end of a first date, I just say something to keep the tension, and the push pull dynamic, like "Oh, wow. How did that happen? I don't know if I'm ready for this." Or I blame her, "Stop doing this to me. What are you doing to me?"

That leaves a little bit of the game open to her. So it's not just assumed that the next time we meet up we're going to make out.

I used to leave making out to build sexual tension, but now I just try to kiss every date, if I like her, as fast as possible and just assume my value is high enough that she'll want to have sex with me anyway.

Interesting Tony. Tell me, do you use the kiss as a strategy to increase the chances of getting a second date or just because you want that and makes the process more enjoyable for you?

 

[Tony D]

I feel it increases the odds I'll see her again. I'm not sure why. It's just an intuition usually. And I almost always make out with girls before pulling them from parties or bars. Or at least within an hour of meeting them.

 

[Witcher]

I feel it increases the odds I'll see her again. I'm not sure why. It's just an intuition usually. And I almost always make out with girls before pulling them from parties or bars. Or at least within an hour of meeting them.

Thanks for the precision. I would just go for one more clarification. If you have to choose One default option that gives you the highest ration to get a second date (that is not a friendzone date). Would you go for the kiss or not?

 

[Tony D]

Thanks for the precision. I would just go for one more clarification. If you have to choose One default option that gives you the highest ration to get a second date (that is not a friendzone date). Would you go for the kiss or not?

It's impossible to make this a binary decision because you need to be fluid in your decision making process. Women aren't algorithms. Maybe you lack experience, but every situation is unique.

 

[Witcher]

It's impossible to make this a binary decision because you need to be fluid in your decision making process. Women aren't algorithms. Maybe you lack experience, but every situation is unique.

Yes, I still need way more reference points. This is why I'm looking for the best practice first until I develop an intuitive awareness for each situation.

 

[Witcher]

Seems like I found even more answers on this great and very useful article from you, @Grand Pooba (you should have referenced it)

The Points of No Return in Seduction and Courtships

Every courtship is a ladder of many steps, some of which are absolutely crucial to get anywhere. Failing to pass these points of no return will spell almost certain doom. Contents Point #1: The Kiss Goal: Leave Her Wanting More Using a Kiss to Pull Ending a Date With a Kiss How to End a Date...

www.girlschase.com

One thing I would want to follow up about since I use similar date style to yours:

The best time to end the date without a kiss is on a high note sometime before you’d naturally pull her home, or before you’d be escalating anyway (perhaps you’ve done a great job of keeping her aroused and horny).

Assuming that you do a coffee date or one at a lounge bar, at how long into the date on average do you end it? 1 hour, 2 Hours?

Thanks

 

[Randy_91]

I have had girls loose interest because I never kissed them on the date. If I don't kiss it can come off as to platonic or that you're too scared to make a move. I've had girls actually come out with things like What type of guys takes a girl out then doesn't make a move on her?

 

[Starboy]

I have had girls loose interest because I never kissed them on the date. If I don't kiss it can come off as to platonic or that you're too scared to make a move. I've had girls actually come out with things like What type of guys takes a girl out then doesn't make a move on her?

This was always my problem too. I never kissed or made any other type of advance the girl loses interest in the few dates that i've had so what to do? If I don't kiss then she almost always loses interest because the date vibe always gets platonic unless I somehow bring up the topic of sex,but I can't back it up if I dont kiss so the girl just loses interest . What if you're a kissless virgin and you never even kissed a girl when should you even try to go for a kiss? My logistics are crap so I can't invite her to my place and what if she doesnt live on her own.

 

[Randy_91]

This was always my problem too. I never kissed or made any other type of advance the girl loses interest in the few dates that i've had so what to do? If I don't kiss then she almost always loses interest because the date vibe always gets platonic unless I somehow bring up the topic of sex,but I can't back it up if I dont kiss so the girl just loses interest . What if you're a kissless virgin and you never even kissed a girl when should you even try to go for a kiss? My logistics are crap so I can't invite her to my place and what if she doesnt live on her own.

What you do is try to escalate gradually, like make a venue change and try to take her hand or arm on the way. Don't sit across from her, try to get her to sit in close with you to build comfort. Is she is showing signs that she likes you go in for the kiss when it feels right or at the end of the date.

I have also been in the situation when my logistics were crap. I still had a lot of success because I was younger at the time and the girls I was dating were younger too. So I would go out and meet them in the car and have sex in the car somewhere. As I got a bit older I would get hotels rooms for the night.