What is game exactly, and can it be used to create attraction

[Will_V]

Mod Note: split off from this thread here so as not to derail.

@Water_Polo @donjuan77 genuinely curious to know, what would each of you guys consider to be an example of great game?

Like if you haven't seen someone at all and have no idea what they look like, and they post a LR, what would make you read it and go 'yeah that was the sauce!'.

Does the girl have to be screaming 'OMFG you're so ugly!! Get away from me!!" at the start and screaming 'OMFG go harder!' at the end?

Is it a lay up every time a girl is neutral to receptive from the get go?

Does she have to put you through a certain number of 'shit tests' at a certain pain threshold for it to qualify as game?

Do you have to arrive at the lay like some kind of shipwreck survivor crawling onto the beach?

Everyone knows that gaming two girls together, let alone for 4 hours, takes lots of skill. The moment your attainability gets too low or she thinks you're screwing her around, she'll bail. And that's just one of the obstacles being dealt with here.

If you're going to jump in and start poking someone's report, how about posting your own reports showing how commonplace and easy this sort of stuff is for you?

 

[Water_Polo]

@Water_Polo @donjuan77 genuinely curious to know, what would each of you guys consider to be an example of great game?

Like if you haven't seen someone at all and have no idea what they look like, and they post a LR, what would make you read it and go 'yeah that was the sauce!'.

Does the girl have to be screaming 'OMFG you're so ugly!! Get away from me!!" at the start and screaming 'OMFG go harder!' at the end?

Is it a lay up every time a girl is neutral to receptive from the get go?

Does she have to put you through a certain number of 'shit tests' at a certain pain threshold for it to qualify as game?

Do you have to arrive at the lay like some kind of shipwreck survivor crawling onto the beach?

Everyone knows that gaming two girls together, let alone for 4 hours, takes lots of skill. The moment your attainability gets too low or she thinks you're screwing her around, she'll bail. And that's just one of the obstacles being dealt with here.

If you're going to jump in and start poking someone's report, how about posting your own reports showing how commonplace and easy this sort of stuff is for you?

I'm not a "game" guy personally. I'm not of the belief that going up to girls doing cold approaches and trying to attract them through a sequence of autistically calculated behavioral cues is a good way to get what most men want. I said in my first response that attracting girls first is the optimal way to do things. That's basically what this dude is doing, attraction first and then gaming second. You don't need to be good looking to do that but you should be able to manufacture yourself as attractive in some way before you start anything.

My personal opinion is that cold approach is worth doing as a newbie for maybe 6 months to possibly a year but if you're still doing cold approach pickup as an average looking guy after a year you're probably a retard.

 

[Will_V]

I'm not a "game" guy personally. I'm not of the belief that going up to girls doing cold approaches and trying to attract them through a sequence of autistically calculated behavioral cues is a good way to get what most men want. I said in my first response that attracting girls first is the optimal way to do things. That's basically what this dude is doing, attraction first and then gaming second. You don't need to be good looking to do that but you should be able to manufacture yourself as attractive in some way before you start anything.

My personal opinion is that cold approach is worth doing as a newbie for maybe 6 months to possibly a year but if you're still doing cold approach pickup as an average looking guy after a year you're probably a retard.

Game is not really about 'creating attraction', it's about removing obstacles to that attraction turning into sex.

When I'm sitting on the bus or train, or walking around, I like to observe people. And I see women being attracted to all sorts of guys, all the time. I can see it in their body language, facial expressions, the way they perk up or falter as they are walking along, etc. These guys either seem to not notice, or they are actually completely unaware. And they usually aren't conventionally 'hot' guys - often they are guys who I can see are 'her type' i.e. they would look matching together, or they are average looking guys who are much older with a solid presence but otherwise nondescript. All these guys would have an opportunity to take that girl home if he knew how to game.

It's the same as you walking around in a mall, and noticing all the attractive girls. As your attention moves around it lingers on this girl, then that girl, then the other girl, etc. One of them might be a bit chubby but has a beautiful face and hair, one of them might be hot but her face isn't great, one of them might just look like she'd be fun for some reason even though nothing in particular looks all that great, but they all stand out a little bit above the crowd.

Girls feel the same about guys, though it's somewhat less about appearance and more about his energy. If only there was some mechanism to bridge the gap between you two, something could happen. Well, that's where game comes in.

The idea of 'creating attraction' is basically a misnomer, @Chase goes into that a bit here. The thing is though that sufficient initial attraction is far, far more common than guys think. Even the act of going up to a girl can be very attractive. But guys just don't see it. The only time they perceive it is when it turns into some frenzy like a celebrity arriving at an event. Below that threshold they are unawares. But I can read people very well, and I've spent a long time around women learning to pick up all their cues, and I've asked women about this as well. Their attraction gets triggered all the time, they just won't take responsibility for doing anything about it, and if the guy doesn't either, nothing happens. But if he learns how to approach, how to create rapport, how to set up a date, how to escalate on a date in a way that's comfortable for her, how to invite her home and deal with objections, and how to turn her on and take her clothes off at home, he can make things happen fairly often. Not with every woman, but with many of them.

That's what game is, and that's what its role is. It's not about creating some voodoo hypnotic state in a woman that makes her forget about reality.

 

[donjuan77]

@Water_Polo @donjuan77 genuinely curious to know, what would each of you guys consider to be an example of great game?

Like if you haven't seen someone at all and have no idea what they look like, and they post a LR, what would make you read it and go 'yeah that was the sauce!'.

Does the girl have to be screaming 'OMFG you're so ugly!! Get away from me!!" at the start and screaming 'OMFG go harder!' at the end?

Is it a lay up every time a girl is neutral to receptive from the get go?

Does she have to put you through a certain number of 'shit tests' at a certain pain threshold for it to qualify as game?

Do you have to arrive at the lay like some kind of shipwreck survivor crawling onto the beach?

Everyone knows that gaming two girls together, let alone for 4 hours, takes lots of skill. The moment your attainability gets too low or she thinks you're screwing her around, she'll bail. And that's just one of the obstacles being dealt with here.

If you're going to jump in and start poking someone's report, how about posting your own reports showing how commonplace and easy this sort of stuff is for you?

Yeah, basically. Laying in those situations is impressive. Laying when she's already throwing her pussy at you is not. It's like showing off the company you inherited from your rich father. Sure you have responsibilities it isn't going to run itself but come on?

I'm not a "game" guy personally. I'm not of the belief that going up to girls doing cold approaches and trying to attract them through a sequence of autistically calculated behavioral cues is a good way to get what most men want. I said in my first response that attracting girls first is the optimal way to do things. That's basically what this dude is doing, attraction first and then gaming second. You don't need to be good looking to do that but you should be able to manufacture yourself as attractive in some way before you start anything.

My personal opinion is that cold approach is worth doing as a newbie for maybe 6 months to possibly a year but if you're still doing cold approach pickup as an average looking guy after a year you're probably a retard.

Huh? I doubt girls are approaching you if you're average looking so cold approach is needed more than ever then imo. Like the hot girl at the cafe, you won't talk to her after a year bc it's retarded? I'm confused.

 

[Will_V]

Yeah, basically. Laying in those situations is impressive. Laying when she's already throwing her pussy at you is not. It's like showing off the company you inherited from your rich father. Sure you have responsibilities it isn't going to run itself but come on?

If you are a man who:

- Is reasonably happy and content with his life outside of women
- Is sociable and likeable
- Is not overweight
- Dresses well with a little bit of style
- Carries himself proudly and with confidence

then it's very, very hard to fall below a threshold of attraction for a good chunk of women. Regardless of how ugly you think you look.

So why should any guy ever have to come in tripping girls alarm bells left and right and trying to turn it around? What would be the point? No one wants to be there, and no one has to be there.

The main problem I've seen with guys who are failing, in the years I've been on this platform, is that they have rock bottom self-confidence and self esteem, and if I can tell through their words, you better believe women will see it on their faces from a mile away.

No woman wants a miserable, unhappy, fearful guy who hates himself. Women want and need guys who are confident, commanding, with high self esteem, calm, and able to handle their own emotions as well as hers.

That doesn't mean sometimes we aren't feeling miserable, unhappy, or anxious, but we cannot just parade it around expecting women who would otherwise be attracted to us to come and open themselves up to us.

I've sometimes in the past gone out and gamed when I was depressed - like nothing in my life was where I wanted it, I had major pressing problems I didn't how how to solve, I didn't have any concrete plans for the future, I felt bad being at home by myself, and I just wanted a woman to make me feel better about myself. And it never, ever worked. I got rejected before I even got in range to say anything, women would steer away from me, ignore me when I opened, and legit look afraid of me. Fortunately I was self aware enough to say 'well they liked me before, so something must have changed'. I hadn't morphed into anyone else's body. So they must have been perceiving my state of mind and going 'nope!'.

So I make sure I never offer women my troubles like that, but instead offer her the things in my life and in my emotions that are positive, enhancing, and pleasurable. And that's what she's attracted to anyway, so the more I offer that, the more she's attracted.

If I feel too miserable, I simply don't go approaching. Instead I go to war with whatever problem I've got, and when I get a win, I go out and show to women all the positive emotions and sexual libido that I got from that. And surprise surprise, they enjoy that, and I enjoy it too.

The way women respond is just a reflection of your presentation as a man, it's not a judgement but a reaction. Women cannot justify you, or provide you with purpose or meaning, or any of those things, because as soon as you lose those things in your own life, they are gone. That's just how it is.

But if you become happy and confident and satisfied in your own world, and you have the tools (game) to bridge the gap and turn the attraction she feels at seeing you in that state into sex, then women will be abundant for you.

 

[Water_Polo]

Game is not really about 'creating attraction', it's about removing obstacles to that attraction turning into sex.

When I'm sitting on the bus or train, or walking around, I like to observe people. And I see women being attracted to all sorts of guys, all the time. I can see it in their body language, facial expressions, the way they perk up or falter as they are walking along, etc. These guys either seem to not notice, or they are actually completely unaware. And they usually aren't conventionally 'hot' guys - often they are guys who I can see are 'her type' i.e. they would look matching together, or they are average looking guys who are much older with a solid presence but otherwise nondescript. All these guys would have an opportunity to take that girl home if he knew how to game.

It's the same as you walking around in a mall, and noticing all the attractive girls. As your attention moves around it lingers on this girl, then that girl, then the other girl, etc. One of them might be a bit chubby but has a beautiful face and hair, one of them might be hot but her face isn't great, one of them might just look like she'd be fun for some reason even though nothing in particular looks all that great, but they all stand out a little bit above the crowd.

Girls feel the same about guys, though it's somewhat less about appearance and more about his energy. If only there was some mechanism to bridge the gap between you two, something could happen. Well, that's where game comes in.

The idea of 'creating attraction' is basically a misnomer, @Chase goes into that a bit here. The thing is though that sufficient initial attraction is far, far more common than guys think. Even the act of going up to a girl can be very attractive. But guys just don't see it. The only time they perceive it is when it turns into some frenzy like a celebrity arriving at an event. Below that threshold they are unawares. But I can read people very well, and I've spent a long time around women learning to pick up all their cues, and I've asked women about this as well. Their attraction gets triggered all the time, they just won't take responsibility for doing anything about it, and if the guy doesn't either, nothing happens. But if he learns how to approach, how to create rapport, how to set up a date, how to escalate on a date in a way that's comfortable for her, how to invite her home and deal with objections, and how to turn her on and take her clothes off at home, he can make things happen fairly often. Not with every woman, but with many of them.

That's what game is, and that's what its role is. It's not about creating some voodoo hypnotic state in a woman that makes her forget about reality.

That's a lot of words bro, can't be fucked to read every comma so I'm just skimming shit. Linked article seems to be trying to split the atom of attraction into fascination or excitement and basically saying that game can generate excitement for short term hook ups.

Tbh surprisef to see a mod on a seduction forum saying that game doesn't create attraction. I've lurked on game forums enough to see that a decent percent of the guys who are into this are just attractive lads who think they've got golden game. Rest are just running volume and happy to get what they can. If you don't believe game generates attraction I'm guessing you're good looking? Maybe you took the "it's a lay up" personally but I was just pointing out the obvious to that other guy that the dude was attractive. Even a new guy could read between the lines there.

In terms of average guys getting scoped out by girls, I'm not seeing it. I see girls checking out other girls far more often than them giving signals to regular men. Most guys are invisible, if they're getting some split second glance by a 4 on a Tuesday at Walmart at 7:48pm 3 times a year I can't blame them for not noticing. That's a long way off from getting bikini clad teenagers and their sisters orbiting you for existing, waiting to be opened and receptive immediately. Attraction isn't binary where it's there or it isn't, the type of attraction you're describing is so volatile it's almost worthless.

Anyway, wasn't really looking for a sidebar discussion on a meta analyses on game, just confirming dude's suspicion.

 

[JollyRoger]

I've sometimes in the past gone out and gamed when I was depressed - like nothing in my life was where I wanted it, I had major pressing problems I didn't how how to solve, I didn't have any concrete plans for the future, I felt bad being at home by myself, and I just wanted a woman to make me feel better about myself. And it never, ever worked. I got rejected before I even got in range to say anything, women would steer away from me, ignore me when I opened, and legit look afraid of me. Fortunately I was self aware enough to say 'well they liked me before, so something must have changed'. I hadn't morphed into anyone else's body. So they must have been perceiving my state of mind and going 'nope!'.

In my personal experience there wasn't a correlation between how happy or not I was and my results. It was mostly down to how I executed the behaviours (game).

My baseline happiness is higher than it's ever been but I'm rusty and need to sharpen my skills. Perhaps that's a limiting belief / self-fulfilling prophecy but if for example I don't make sure to project my voice correctly when I open I just don't get interactions started.

 

[JollyRoger]

I'm somewhat hesitant to give my opinion on this because I'm coming out of a long hiatus. But I can look back at when I first got started and the objective results I was getting which lead me to believe that "game" (a set of beliefs and behaviours) CAN generate attraction. And to be honest I think that's somewhat underrated in the current scene as there's been a trend towards 'passive' game (be attractive, confident and approach bro). I don't know if I can categorically say that it's possible to flip a NO to a YES but I'm pretty confident to say that it's possible to flip INDIFFERENT to a YES with "game".

A couple of years after I first got into all of this I spent almost 18 months travelling through various countries staying at hostels. It was as close as you can get to a controlled environment. It was a laboratory where I was able to run social experiments every day and night.

I was constantly meeting people mostly aged between 18 - 25 from a small range of countries (90% were from North America, Western Europe, Australia and New Zealand, South Korea and Japan) and I was constantly having the same conversations.

1. Where are you from?
2. Where have you travelled to so far?
3. Where are you travelling to next?
4. What did you do before you came out here?
5. What will you do when you get back home?
etc. etc.

So every day I was encountering particular archetypes (Another 22 year old Swede that just finished college, another 24 year old American that is taking a holiday before her first real job etc.) and I was having the same types of conversations with them every day for months on end.

On top of that I was surrounded by people who besides their looks all had an almost identical SMV. We were all young people travelling around the world on a shoe-string budget, dressed in t-shirts, shorts and sandals. It was very equal. Yes good looking guys were getting opportunities thrown at them left and right (which they would often miss or mess up because of lack of experience). But everyone else had to be proactive and put in work to get results and the big differentiator was how we were presenting ourselves (game, which includes managing logistics but isn't the central point in this discussion).

I was able to experiment with different ways of answering the standard questions, different ways of talking about the standard topics, different ways of entering a conversation with people playing pool in the hostel common room and a variety (but limited number) of other scenarios. It was a like a video game.

Over time my results got better and better as I adapted Mystery Method + Juggler Method to my personal situation. That's just what I happened to know at the time. If I could go back in time with what I know now I'd try some other methods.

At one point I became over-confident and I started skipping steps (especially in the areas of what we would call Comfort and Attainability) and I messed things up for myself. But when I got back to my system the results started happening again.

Now I understand that there's often a conflict between understanding that "you are enough" and a skills based approach: "I need to do XYZ things otherwise it's not going to work". If you're constantly operating in the 2nd mode you're undermining self-belief that you are enough as you are. I think there are ways to overcome that tension, but that's a whole different topic.

In conclusion my objective results where varying depending on how I introduced myself to a group, whether I negged the girl or not (yes I actually used to do that), how I answered a question etc. The environment was almost identical (hostel in a tropical country), the people were the same (20 something backpackers), I was the same (in a good mood, travelling the world on a budget).

Back then, game worked for me. I don't know if that's still the case now. But that was my experience. I can't say for certain if I was flipping NO's to Yes's but I was definitely flipping INDIFFERENT's to Yes's.

 

[Chase]

My personal opinion is that cold approach is worth doing as a newbie for maybe 6 months to possibly a year but if you're still doing cold approach pickup as an average looking guy after a year you're probably a retard.

If you're still average-looking after a year in the game, you're probably a retard.

I used to go to pickup lair meetings and meet guys and I would always come away from them thinking, "Why do these guys dress that way? Did they just come from the office? Why are these guys slouching? Why do they have all those tics? Why are they speaking like that? Why can't they hold eye contact?"

There would usually be a few guys dressed in cool clothes, with good posture, who held solid eye contact, talked with a cool voice, and had all their other fundamentals in check, and those were always the dudes who could actually get into decent conversations with girls and sometimes pull ass.

Maybe it's not as bad now since everyone is so sucked into looksmaxxing and so on. Early pickup was a lot of, "Tell me how to say the magic words." I haven't been out with a lair of seduction newbies in a hot minute... not sure lairs even exist anymore.

Anyway, the old saying for gals is

There are no ugly women, only lazy ones.

Same goes for men. Though in men's case, we might put a slash and "/unaware" next to "lazy."

Attraction | Girls Chase

www.girlschase.com

Chase

 

[Water_Polo]

If you're still average-looking after a year in the game, you're probably a retard.

I used to go to pickup lair meetings and meet guys and I would always come away from them thinking, "Why do these guys dress that way? Did they just come from the office? Why are these guys slouching? Why do they have all those tics? Why are they speaking like that? Why can't they hold eye contact?"

There would usually be a few guys dressed in cool clothes, with good posture, who held solid eye contact, talked with a cool voice, and had all their other fundamentals in check, and those were always the dudes who could actually get into decent conversations with girls and sometimes pull ass.

Maybe it's not as bad now since everyone is so sucked into looksmaxxing and so on. Early pickup was a lot of, "Tell me how to say the magic words." I haven't been out with a lair of seduction newbies in a hot minute... not sure lairs even exist anymore.

Anyway, the old saying for gals is



Same goes for men. Though in men's case, we might put a slash and "/unaware" next to "lazy."

Attraction | Girls Chase

www.girlschase.com

Chase

Sure, but there's only so much "looksmaxxing" is going to do. Going from average to above average can move the needle a bit but it's not going to flip most average guys into pimps, there's only so much wearing lifts to go from 5'8" to 5'10" is going to do for you. Not that I'd ever do anything as pathetic as wearing lifts to compensate for lack of ability to genuinely attract girls, just saying.

Most guys talk like that and can't keep eye contact because their neurchemicals are trash, it's a lifestyle problem and not a "game" or "inner game" issue that some dating coach is going to resolve. I've seen veteran puas even say that approach anxiety never goes away lol. Even the guys who do this for decades still struggle with basic issues that plague new guys.

 

[Skills]

Sure, but there's only so much "looksmaxxing" is going to do. Going from average to above average can move the needle a bit but it's not going to flip most average guys into pimps, there's only so much wearing lifts to go from 5'8" to 5'10" is going to do for you. Not that I'd ever do anything as pathetic as wearing lifts to compensate for lack of ability to genuinely attract girls, just saying.

Most guys talk like that and can't keep eye contact because their neurchemicals are trash, it's a lifestyle problem and not a "game" or "inner game" issue that some dating coach is going to resolve. I've seen veteran puas even say that approach anxiety never goes away lol. Even the guys who do this for decades still struggle with basic issues that plague new guys.

so what is your solution sensei???? For them to stay home and jerk of to porn hub or do something about it??? what is your point??? cause everything you are claiming i have actually seen the opposite in real life a million times.... I have seen with my 2 on eyes, seeing a short guy (my wing primo) get really hot girls and pull multiple 3 somes, i have sarge with actual models from the community that can't hold primo jog strapped (these are facts)... I don't understand your point, he does not use lifts.... Seen the same with my other wing sam, short indian guy jacked... average guys can be pimps if the want to, by not being average, they have to have an edge somewhere and angle, there is plenty of evidence, i can post, but is useless, you need to believe what you believe so you can continue coping... Anyways, i don't understand why guys in this forum entertain this, yawn....:

The problem with a few naturals and anti-gamers that join the community----

Some of This happened to me when i joined the community in fairness i was not as bad as what i am seeing today, so i know what i am talking about (the thing is I would not be as retarded as guys that are rightfully ban from the forum and i was actually open and looking for answers all along...

www.skilledseducer.com

Best explanation I have ever found on looks matter theory (featuring Alex Novy from Sleazy forum) - The Skills Method

All questions and doubts that you ever had on looks mattering when it comes to seduction are answer in this blog.

www.theskillsmethod.com

height theory

 

[Water_Polo]

so what is your solution sensei???? For them to stay home and jerk of to porn hub or do something about it??? what is your point??? cause everything you are claiming i have actually seen the opposite in real life a million times.... I have seen with my 2 on eyes, seeing a short guy (my wing primo) get really hot girls and pull multiple 3 somes, i have sarge with actual models from the community that can't hold primo jog strapped (these are facts)... I don't understand your point, he does not use lifts.... Seen the same with my other wing sam, short indian guy jacked... average guys can be pimps if the want to, by not being average, they have to have an edge somewhere and angle, there is plenty of evidence, i can post, but is useless, you need to believe what you believe so you can continue coping... Anyways, i don't understand why guys in this forum entertain this, yawn....:

The problem with a few naturals and anti-gamers that join the community----

Some of This happened to me when i joined the community in fairness i was not as bad as what i am seeing today, so i know what i am talking about (the thing is I would not be as retarded as guys that are rightfully ban from the forum and i was actually open and looking for answers all along...

www.skilledseducer.com

Best explanation I have ever found on looks matter theory (featuring Alex Novy from Sleazy forum) - The Skills Method

All questions and doubts that you ever had on looks mattering when it comes to seduction are answer in this blog.

www.theskillsmethod.com

Not enough question marks in this comment.

I know what works for me, but I'm not in the business of coaching other guys on how to get their dick sucked. Just offering an opinion to a thread I got dragged into.

Go out enough times and you'll see all types of stuff. Not personally concerned with any of it. I never said "game" doesn't work, that was the mod. Imo, the advice on how it works is bad, that's a different conversation though.

 

[Zoro]

Half of game is not making excuses and doing the damn thing. And how could that be game? Because women like men, as in a masculine being who must take action to get results. They like it when you do it against all odds.

The other half is understanding women. They want the show without seeing the production. You handle the logistics, comfort, and experience. You learn to lead effectively, you learn how to make her feel sexy, you dance and invite her into that dance and give chances to play.

And that all sounds nontechnical because it’s also an art. We as men naturally want to define and categorize to make it all more efficient. But do not do that at the cost of being an artist.

Creativity, vision, hunger, intuition, bravery, boldness, passion, determination, audacity, and positivity, these things are just as important as the tech.

When I see guys doubting the game, all I see are guys who lack the vision, the passion, the boldness, and especially the audacity to claim what could be there’s too.

 

[Will_V]

In my personal experience there wasn't a correlation between how happy or not I was and my results. It was mostly down to how I executed the behaviours (game).

My baseline happiness is higher than it's ever been but I'm rusty and need to sharpen my skills. Perhaps that's a limiting belief / self-fulfilling prophecy but if for example I don't make sure to project my voice correctly when I open I just don't get interactions started.

If something works for you, keep doing it!

From what I can tell, it comes down to mainly a few things.

- Temperament
- Position in life
- The length of time you've been in a bad state

Some guys are just very good at not showing bad emotions, and you'll think they are fine even when they aren't. I believe these guys have a very compartmentalized identity, as in, they have developed the ability, probably by necessity, to throw unwanted or negative emotions into a different compartment of their minds, slam shut the door and lock it, and none of it comes out. I don't think this is healthy in the long run, but it usually works to make them much more effective socially and seductively in the short-medium term. What it seems to do a lot of the time though is mess with their self awareness and long term planning ability, and so they might end up self destructing at some point.

There's also the fact that when you're younger, nothing really matters that much, all you need is some red bull and testosterone and you can make do with whatever. I went around south america as a 19/20 y/o living out of a backpack, and I got laid plenty. But when you're older you really start to bear the mental burden of where your life is headed vs your expectations. I think one big problem occurs when this happens on multiple fronts - a guy's life experiences, general life satisfaction, finances, and sexual experiences are all far short of what he wants, but he tries to funnel it all into game and women, and ends up basically trying to ponzi his own life. If you're young, that's fine - all you're selling really is your potential and your testosterone, which may well be there. But as you get older you can't just be selling that stuff anymore. And I know there's an internal compass in every person which can and will pull the house down if you get too far away from your course over time, and for many people that's around their late twenties or early thirties.

Lastly there is the nature of the problem. When someone is in a good mental state with high self esteem, a problem - even a big, catastrophic one that may last weeks - doesn't leave much of an impact. They bounce back very quickly. What really messes someone up is a major problem that lasts years, perhaps even decades, or which has roots in a string of life experiences or choices or tendencies that have spanned many years. People tend to bury this sort of problem deep, but it still influences their life in many different ways, bringing them ever deeper into it without them realizing. And then (like all repressed emotion) it comes up every now and then and spills out, and suddenly they feel lonely or desperate or insecure and decide to go out and game for validation. This is simply a bad choice - instead, what I've found to be much more beneficial is to channel it into anger, and go after the problems in my life that only depend on me, directly and with a vengeance. In that state, as you can probably tell, I'm in no mood to game. I don't want anyone around, I just want to be alone and to fight. I'll usually start an exercise regime, zero in on my biggest problem, and do nothing but eat, sleep, and work on it for a few weeks or more.

That's the summary of how I see things. Every guy has to determine what works for him, by testing himself through various experiences. I think it's fair to say though that if your life is a mess and it bothers you, if your day to day life is not satisfying and your five-year plan is 'more of the same shit', and you feel depressed, go and fix it first. Or at least spent as much time as you spend gaming on productively solving the other problems as well.

 

[donjuan77]

@Will_V thanks interesting point of view as well as Chase's take on attraction, but frankly I think the "work on your self" stuff needs to stay out of the conversation. Yes it has it's place but if it was really necessary losers wouldn't be banging hotties and we all know they do. I understand some dating coaches want to be "life coaches" too or contribute to society or whatever the fuck but most of us red blooded males just want to fuck women in a way where they actually want to fuck us back. Lets be real. All this "leave her better than you left her", "work on your fundamentals/self", etc has got to be the byproduct of some chick that got into a dating coach's head. But who cld blame her. Properly executed game is fucking dangerous. Women would never be able to settle down if all men knew how flip a woman's switches on command. DANGEROUS. Either that or capitalism. I don't think social and capitalism mix. Maybe that's why its arch nemesis is called socialism. Also, if fundamentals were so important I'd have bitches lining up.. I don't think I've ever been more disciplined, fit, healthy, and level headed in my life than I am today yet don't see pussy falling from trees. I had to get my ass out there and run whatever game I cld to even get some dates. And frankly I did better when I was a complete loser. I don't even think I needed any game back then.

 

[bgwh]

That's a lot of words bro, can't be fucked to read every comma so I'm just skimming shit. Linked article seems to be trying to split the atom of attraction into fascination or excitement and basically saying that game can generate excitement for short term hook ups.

Tbh surprisef to see a mod on a seduction forum saying that game doesn't create attraction. I've lurked on game forums enough to see that a decent percent of the guys who are into this are just attractive lads who think they've got golden game. Rest are just running volume and happy to get what they can. If you don't believe game generates attraction I'm guessing you're good looking? Maybe you took the "it's a lay up" personally but I was just pointing out the obvious to that other guy that the dude was attractive. Even a new guy could read between the lines there.

In terms of average guys getting scoped out by girls, I'm not seeing it. I see girls checking out other girls far more often than them giving signals to regular men. Most guys are invisible, if they're getting some split second glance by a 4 on a Tuesday at Walmart at 7:48pm 3 times a year I can't blame them for not noticing. That's a long way off from getting bikini clad teenagers and their sisters orbiting you for existing, waiting to be opened and receptive immediately. Attraction isn't binary where it's there or it isn't, the type of attraction you're describing is so volatile it's almost worthless.

Anyway, wasn't really looking for a sidebar discussion on a meta analyses on game, just confirming dude's suspicion.

While I don't agree with everything else you sau, I concur with the signs of interest stuff. I get zero interest from girls out, I'm invisible unless I approach them. However, when I show up to a place with hot female friends, I get eyefucked left and right. Social proof is a pretty powerful way to generate attraction.

I agree that people who sell game tend to overemphasize it's ability to "create attraction". I think cold approach is good for finding the girls who are already attracted to you, and they would have banged you wherever you had met them and even if you didn't know any "attraction creating" techniques. If you had met them anywhere else and just knew how to escalate, you would have banged them as well.

 

[bgwh]

Half of game is not making excuses and doing the damn thing. And how could that be game? Because women like men, as in a masculine being who must take action to get results. They like it when you do it against all odds.

The other half is understanding women. They want the show without seeing the production. You handle the logistics, comfort, and experience. You learn to lead effectively, you learn how to make her feel sexy, you dance and invite her into that dance and give chances to play.

And that all sounds nontechnical because it’s also an art. We as men naturally want to define and categorize to make it all more efficient. But do not do that at the cost of being an artist.

Creativity, vision, hunger, intuition, bravery, boldness, passion, determination, audacity, and positivity, these things are just as important as the tech.

When I see guys doubting the game, all I see are guys who lack the vision, the passion, the boldness, and especially the audacity to claim what could be there’s too.

I don't think anyone doubts game defined the way you just did:

1/2 = "Half of game is not making excuses and doing the damn thing"
2/2 = "understanding women. They want the show without seeing the production. You handle the logistics, comfort, and experience. You learn to lead effectively, you learn how to make her feel sexy, you dance and invite her into that dance and give chances to play."

The part that people doubt is the 3rd part, the idea that attraction can be generated or created via techniques described in game communities.

 

[Warped Mindless]

The guys who spout “you can’t generate attraction in women” and that “you can only get women who are already attracted!” Are missing a very big point…

It’s not hard to be someone that women find attractive. I don’t fully agree that you can’t generate “attraction” with a women who didn’t initially feel it but we will leave that aside for a moment.

It’s not hard to improve your looks and fundamentals to the point where most women will find you “attractive.” The problem is that men thinks her finding you attractive is the same as her wanting to fuck you. This is confusing male thinking with female thunking.

Women will use your looks (how fit you are and how your dressed and posture), and combine it with your behaviors and actions (do you look confident, do you hold eye contact, sexual facial expressions, etc) to determine if you are attractive. This is subconscious for her.

The worse your physical looks the more you need to make up for it with attractive behaviors.

But, most men, with some work, will be initially considered attractive ENOUGH by most women that they won’t initially write you off based on your attractiveness alone. This is called meeting her “attraction threshold.”

Time and time again it’s only when they open their mouths and display bad game (via being weird, doing dumb shit, being uncalibrated, sending bad vibes, etc) that women will then consider you unattractive.

Seduction is where you take their initial attraction and turn it into romantic and/or sexual desire for you.

Game is the process of carrying out seduction. How quickly, efficiently, and effectively can you transform her attraction into genuine romantic and/or sexual desire?

So when people say that “game doesn’t work” it tells me they don’t understand the nature of attraction, or what seduction and game really are.

When people say “game only works if she finds you attractive” it tells me they don’t understand that women are ATTRACTED to dozens and dozens of men they see a day. They think that ATTRACTION is the goal and that it is hard to create.

So why aren’t women sleeping with a ton more guys than they do if they become ATTRACTED to dozens every day?

Lots of reasons but for our purposes the big one is that very few of these men turns her attraction into genuine desire. They lack a process to do so. This process is called “game.”

Actually working on your fundamentals will improve your looks and behaviors to a point where you are “attractive enough” to the vast majority of women. Your game is then the process of taking that initial attraction and turning it into burning desire so she wants to sleep with you.

If she finds you highly initially attractive, it may take less “game” to bridge the gap between Attraction and Desire.

If she doesn’t find you all that initially attractive it may take a lot more game.

Of course there are other factors such as how horny she is, if she’s actively looking for a man to fuck, if she’s taken and committed to someone already, etc.

There is also some stuff we could cover here about and how you can get her to fuck you even without attraction. @Teevester has written some stuff on that before and I won’t rehash it here.

What if based on your observable looks and behaviors she has zero attraction for you? Can “game” turn that 0 attraction into genuine burning desire?

Sometimes simply the act of approaching her in a confident manner can give you enough “points” to push her perception of you over that “attractive threshold” in her mind.

And what if you approach indirectly? Initially maybe she had zero attraction for you but you approached her in such a way that pinged her curiosity. Then you performed a cold read and bought your self some more time by “hooking her “ to show her some more attractive behaviors and qualities. Sometimes this becomes enough to push you over that “attraction threshold.” Remember, for women it’s not all about physical looks.

I could go on and on here but time is short. I’ll make a full post with more concise thoughts on the subject.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

I'd take it from a different perspective. You can meet all kinds of people and through changing how you come across you can change the way they perceive you.

I have not really travelled in hostels much, but last year I was in one for a week. I was not in a good mood, or state, quite the opposite, and I decided to talk to some people. I remember I was sitting there eating alone, and decided to go open a guy. It came off so needy, that his immediate reaction was to give a short answer and basically stay away from me. It was an interesting experience to get rejected by a guy exactly the same way I have been rejected by girls in the past.

And that's how you realise it's really about the energy you give off. Now does it mean that if you act more charismatic the girl will sleep with you? Not by itself but she will be interested in who you are the same way other guys will be interested. And you can work from there with seduction.

 

[bgwh]

The guys who spout “you can’t generate attraction in women” and that “you can only get women who are already attracted!” Are missing a very big point…

It’s not hard to be someone that women find attractive. I don’t fully agree that you can’t generate “attraction” with a women who didn’t initially feel it but we will leave that aside for a moment.

It’s not hard to improve your looks and fundamentals to the point where most women will find you “attractive.” The problem is that men thinks her finding you attractive is the same as her wanting to fuck you. This is confusing male thinking with female thunking.

Women will use your looks (how fit you are and how your dressed and posture), and combine it with your behaviors and actions (do you look confident, do you hold eye contact, sexual facial expressions, etc) to determine if you are attractive. This is subconscious for her.

The worse your physical looks the more you need to make up for it with attractive behaviors.

But, most men, with some work, will be initially considered attractive ENOUGH by most women that they won’t initially write you off based on your attractiveness alone. This is called meeting her “attraction threshold.”

Time and time again it’s only when they open their mouths and display bad game (via being weird, doing dumb shit, being uncalibrated, sending bad vibes, etc) that women will then consider you unattractive.

Seduction is where you take their initial attraction and turn it into romantic and/or sexual desire for you.

Game is the process of carrying out seduction. How quickly, efficiently, and effectively can you transform her attraction into genuine romantic and/or sexual desire?

So when people say that “game doesn’t work” it tells me they don’t understand the nature of attraction, or what seduction and game really are.

When people say “game only works if she finds you attractive” it tells me they don’t understand that women are ATTRACTED to dozens and dozens of men they see a day. They think that ATTRACTION is the goal and that it is hard to create.

So why aren’t women sleeping with a ton more guys than they do if they become ATTRACTED to dozens every day?

Lots of reasons but for our purposes the big one is that very few of these men turns her attraction into genuine desire. They lack a process to do so. This process is called “game.”

Actually working on your fundamentals will improve your looks and behaviors to a point where you are “attractive enough” to the vast majority of women. Your game is then the process of taking that initial attraction and turning it into burning desire so she wants to sleep with you.

If she finds you highly initially attractive, it may take less “game” to bridge the gap between Attraction and Desire.

If she doesn’t find you all that initially attractive it may take a lot more game.

Of course there are other factors such as how horny she is, if she’s actively looking for a man to fuck, if she’s taken and committed to someone already, etc.

There is also some stuff we could cover here about and how you can get her to fuck you even without attraction. @Teevester has written some stuff on that before and I won’t rehash it here.

What if based on your observable looks and behaviors she has zero attraction for you? Can “game” turn that 0 attraction into genuine burning desire?

Sometimes simply the act of approaching her in a confident manner can give you enough “points” to push her perception of you over that “attractive threshold” in her mind.

And what if you approach indirectly? Initially maybe she had zero attraction for you but you approached her in such a way that pinged her curiosity. Then you performed a cold read and bought your self some more time by “hooking her “ to show her some more attractive behaviors and qualities. Sometimes this becomes enough to push you over that “attraction threshold.” Remember, for women it’s not all about physical looks.

I could go on and on here but time is short. I’ll make a full post with more concise thoughts on the subject.

I think most people agree with everything you wrote. At least most reasonable people do. I think the only big contention is about whether attraction can be created via "pickup techniques".

I think any reasonable person should agree that attractiveness can be improved via inner-game, lifestyle, posture, fashion, grooming, working out (etc etc etc); And that most guys can improve their attractivness to pass the threshold where they become fuckable to more than enough attractive women.

The only contention people might have is with something like "Say this line to increase her attraction".

However, I don't think any reasonable person would have an issue with something like "Say this line so it increases her compliance and reduces her ASD", most reasonable people should agree with this.