What's the hardest concept for you to wrap your head around in pickup?

[Kaida]

@Chase amazing article as always.

I want to be very skilled at frame control like you mentioned.

Me personally at 19 years old I’d say I’m mid-intermediate at frame control when it comes to seduction, typically with women that already want what I want to some degree.

Reading this article made me understand that everything I’ve ever wanted socially comes down to frame control.

I want to walk in and make people see me as high status, attractive and competent using my frame.
I want make large groups of people and individuals bend to my point of view.
I want to force people to view me a certain way.
I want to destroy people in emotional debates.
I want strong public speaking and influence skills.
I want to be able to change most womens (and men if needed) emotions to what I want.

Its really everything I’ve been looking for.

If you consider how high the skill cap for frame control in seduction can go, then I’m still an absolute newb. I’m average when it comes to other social situations.

Theres still a lot of times when I’m not viewed how I want to be viewed or I’m not able to defend a verbal attack or I reap the consequences of setting a bad frame earlier.

Seems like frame control is made of 3 things:

1. Making people UNDERSTAND what you think - - Good speaking skills. Low amount of filler words or things that can make your message harder to understand. Adept use of analogies and language to make your picture clear.

2. Making people AGREE with what you think
- Not triggering defenses (or triggering them if thats what you need). Deftly handling objections. Having a good understanding of people and psychology in general in order to implant ideas in their minds.

3. BEING someone people want to agree with
- Coming off as a charismatic, high status leader who provides so much value that people want to agree with him.

I’m a noob at all 3 (compared to y’all) but #1 is something I particularly need to get better at.

I’ve been getting better, but my ideas still get lost in translation frequently. The ideas in my head sometimes come out jumbled when I start talking. Its weirdly inconsistent though, like it flows really easily sometimes too.

Is there some kind of regimen or skill-building habits I can start to develop so I can train frame control skills to a mastery level?

 

[Chase]

@Kaida,

Seems like frame control is made of 3 things:

1. Making people UNDERSTAND what you think - - Good speaking skills. Low amount of filler words or things that can make your message harder to understand. Adept use of analogies and language to make your picture clear.

2. Making people AGREE with what you think
- Not triggering defenses (or triggering them if thats what you need). Deftly handling objections. Having a good understanding of people and psychology in general in order to implant ideas in their minds.

3. BEING someone people want to agree with
- Coming off as a charismatic, high status leader who provides so much value that people want to agree with him.

That's a nice set of distinctions.

Is there some kind of regimen or skill-building habits I can start to develop so I can train frame control skills to a mastery level?

More exposure to more challenging scenarios with a greater variety of personality types who aren't inclined to instantly understand you.

We've got the SSOTM interview coming soon with @Hue, who has worked both as a server (had to figure out how to seduce girls under the radar without breaking frame or being pushy but without being so subtle they didn't get it either, and also generally has to get them to chase him) and as a street approach promoter (had to figure out the frame of stopping random women on the street to get them to come to his club).

Me personally I took debate team in school, where I had to learn to argue both sides of a debate, then a sales job after school where I had to sell to a variety of people who often came in with varying levels of ignorance about what we were selling and resistance to being sold... then once I got into PU I just went around picking up everywhere with every imaginable kind of girl to really push my boundaries. Even involvement in forums and writing GC has served as communication practice & refinement; if you can't be extremely clear you will often be misunderstood in text-based mediums.

I think the biggest predictor/motivator of eventual strong frame control is having a high drive to be clearly understood by people alongside a deep understanding that different people are different and different strategies are required to reach different folks. Everybody has the desire to be understood but some people are more inclined to say, "This person isn't getting it. Ah screw it, who cares, I'm outta here." You also get the folks who do not seem to grasp that different people are different; they will want you to understand them, but if you aren't getting it they just keep repeating themselves the same way, getting more irate each time.

Folks who get good at frame control are the types who say, "This person isn't getting it. That will not do. What can I do to help this person GET it? Hmm.. aha! Maybe that will work! Let me try THAT approach!"

Folks who get good at it IME tend to get a lot of enjoyment out of finding new tools and methods to better communicate (and hence, better influence others).

I guess we could say it is half influence skills and half understanding of other personalities, since different personalities are more open to different influence strategies, plus the ability to quickly sort people into personality boxes and tailor your frame building to them.

Chase

 

[Arnav]

This article clarified a lot of things for me, i think what got me stuck in the earlier one was that I thought I had to be a good debater to get good frame control but I had seen other people getting into heated arguments, bad emotions because of this.

I think I was missing the piece of reading the underlying emotions of the person, and using your words language to move those emotions not to win and show you are right but also to charm them.

So I guess frame control requires both components - Logic (great debater) + emotions (great salesman)

Also i think I understood some of these concepts I just called them by different names, I refered to other people's frames and my frames as beliefs, mindsets or paradigms.

 

[KJ Francis]

This article clarified a lot of things for me, i think what got me stuck in the earlier one was that I thought I had to be a good debater to get good frame control but I had seen other people getting into heated arguments, bad emotions because of this.

I think I was missing the piece of reading the underlying emotions of the person, and using your words language to move those emotions not to win and show you are right but also to charm them.

So I guess frame control requires both components - Logic (great debater) + emotions (great salesman)

Also i think I understood some of these concepts I just called them by different names, I refered to other people's frames and my frames as beliefs, mindsets or paradigms.

Yeah I think there are levels... You can have a frame battle (debate), a reframe (course correction), or simply filter the interaction through your frame.

For example, you meet someone and ask them on a date without inserting any information about where you're from. Alternatively, you tell them you are only in town for the weekend. That's sexual framing. There's no maneuvering of viewpoints at that stage, just setting the context of the interaction.

Or if you're riding with a girl and get a flat tire. A quick reaction "ugh!" with a frown, vs. "ha!" with a shrug is setting the frame of the experience.

 

[Arnav]

Yeah I think there are levels... You can have a frame battle (debate), a reframe (course correction), or simply filter the interaction through your frame.

For example, you meet someone and ask them on a date without inserting any information about where you're from. Alternatively, you tell them you are only in town for the weekend. That's sexual framing. There's no maneuvering of viewpoints at that stage, just setting the context of the interaction.

Or if you're riding with a girl and get a flat tire. A quick reaction "ugh!" with a frown, vs. "ha!" with a shrug is setting the frame of the experience.

yeah that summarizes it perfectly.

 

[TwoNameGame]

What is the most 'foreign' concept or practice in seduction to you?

For me, the hardest is the law of least effort. I grew up with the philosophy of "Whatever you do, do it well. Do it so well that when people see you do it, they will want to come back and see you do it again..." It's something I imposed on myself with pride, so now others expect it. Not helping is a dose of imposter's syndrome despite earning everyone's respect as the decisive guy who knows what to do and can be counted on in a pinch to improvise a quality result.

This tied into growing up in a Mexican household where grand gestures of romance were expected, like serenading a girl just to communicate interest. For years, I struggled with flirting because I put everything into the opener and little else.

Even now, the idea of sitting quietly and letting the girl do the talking and chasing feels lazy and requires effort on my part. It works well, but it goes against my nature.

That said, good habits become nature for me quickly if they work, so I'll get it. I just have no hope going in with a basic opener and poker face. When it inevitably works, I'm like "That's it?"

 

[JasonH]

I'm a little confused about fundamentals - specifically how women are responding to improved fundamentals.

I've been reading girls chase on and off for around 8 years and in that time, I've improved my fundamentals (overall - voice, walk, talk, hair, facial hair, and more recently physique) amongst other things.
About a decade ago, I didn't think I had great fundamentals, average hair, physique and definitely average banter/flirting skills, but I still had women smile at me, engage me, hold conversation and be sending signals of interest, especially if I was dressed well.

Compared to years ago my fundamentals are in far better shape but I get a lot more subtle checking out, smiles here and there and more interest signals when I'm not paying attention. To some extent it's almost like women are a bit more nervous/reserved when first meeting me, perhaps more guarded? but I'm not convinced my fundamentals are so damn good they are causing women to be nervous. I'm also noticing women being more awkward socially compared to years ago.

In general, the more you increase your fundamentals, the more signals of interests, warmth, active and passive compliance you get right? So what's happening here? Do we need to push some fundamentals to an elite level to really notice a difference?

I suppose the concept of fundamentals is easy to understand, but how women are responding to improved fundamentals is confusing for me.

 

[Kvothe]

I will add that frame control while on high momentum is much easier. Sexual momentum makes it easy to view resistance as just a frame, and the more recent the success, the larger the effect.

Frame control and frame control processes to do in low momentum, or far removed from successes is something that I always struggle with. Mostly due to various life events it seems like I'm always exiting out of high momentum, and figuring out ways to get back there seems difficult.

I expect winner effect is the thing there, though sometimes I do find that it's hard to feel any effect from that even when engineering it. PRs in workouts, eating healthy, finishing schoolwork ahead of time, etc.

 

[Spyce D]

I want to add 2 more issues that are the technical aspects of daygame and minimizing flakes .

I still feel like I am not able to do technical game and rely more on speaking whatever comes to my mind .

And , no matter how good the convo goes , a lot of chicks flake , block or ghost regardless .

And although thanks to @Karea , I learnt that both are inter related to each other but it seems like I am not able to implement it properly . Cuz having a tough time wrapping my head around it.

 

[Yaxir]

how to make interactions man-to-woman

i STILL don't understand it!

 

[Arnav]

For me, the hardest is the law of least effort. I grew up with the philosophy of "Whatever you do, do it well. Do it so well that when people see you do it, they will want to come back and see you do it again..." It's something I imposed on myself with pride, so now others expect it. Not helping is a dose of imposter's syndrome despite earning everyone's respect as the decisive guy who knows what to do and can be counted on in a pinch to improvise a quality result.

This tied into growing up in a Mexican household where grand gestures of romance were expected, like serenading a girl just to communicate interest. For years, I struggled with flirting because I put everything into the opener and little else.

Even now, the idea of sitting quietly and letting the girl do the talking and chasing feels lazy and requires effort on my part. It works well, but it goes against my nature.

That said, good habits become nature for me quickly if they work, so I'll get it. I just have no hope going in with a basic opener and poker face. When it inevitably works, I'm like "That's it?"

You will understand law of least effort much better if you learn any skill systematically, as you get better and better. You can do the same things with ease because yoir nervous system has adapted.
Think of law of least effort as law of ease.
Read the book the art of learning by Josh waitzkin, he mentions the cocnept making smaller circle which is exactly like law of least effort.

 

[Arnav]

I'm a little confused about fundamentals - specifically how women are responding to improved fundamentals.

I've been reading girls chase on and off for around 8 years and in that time, I've improved my fundamentals (overall - voice, walk, talk, hair, facial hair, and more recently physique) amongst other things.
About a decade ago, I didn't think I had great fundamentals, average hair, physique and definitely average banter/flirting skills, but I still had women smile at me, engage me, hold conversation and be sending signals of interest, especially if I was dressed well.

Compared to years ago my fundamentals are in far better shape but I get a lot more subtle checking out, smiles here and there and more interest signals when I'm not paying attention. To some extent it's almost like women are a bit more nervous/reserved when first meeting me, perhaps more guarded? but I'm not convinced my fundamentals are so damn good they are causing women to be nervous. I'm also noticing women being more awkward socially compared to years ago.

In general, the more you increase your fundamentals, the more signals of interests, warmth, active and passive compliance you get right? So what's happening here? Do we need to push some fundamentals to an elite level to really notice a difference?

I suppose the concept of fundamentals is easy to understand, but how women are responding to improved fundamentals is confusing for me.

How did you improve your voice?

 

[Kaida]

@Chase

Upon thinking further, I think that another major part of frame strength is reliant on the ability to "disconnect" your internal frame from reality and believe in it despite outside evidence.

You have to have the capability to self-delude.

The one thing a charismatic man who believes he's the best thing to touch Earth and an AFC who strongly believes that women hate men (despite having no real field experience) have in common is a strong frame that's disconnected from reality. Which basically means they have a low need to justify their frame with outside evidence.

Of course the charismatic man likely has had a lot of good experiences that help to fuel his frame. But to believe he's the "best thing to touch Earth" is obviously a stretch. Regardless of how charismatic he is, he's had women reject him and men disrespect him. To truly believe a frame like that you have to ignore outside evidence.


For example, I wasn't a guy who argued or disagreed with people in emotional debates very often until I gained a lot of muscle and started boxing.

Before that, I understood that every major disagreement held the threat of violence if it got too far. And I knew that I wasn't prepared for it. I needed some kind of justification before I believed I was able to convincingly frame myself as being able to handle violence.

But on the other hand, there are small guys with no fighting experience out there who will get in heated debates with big muscular guys, with frames so strong that the muscular dude would back down.

Even Andrew Tate - who is honestly one of the most skilled people at frame control you can find anywhere online - has spoken about the power of self-delusion.

Video I'm referring to (It's only 20 seconds):

He said that if he was unable to run from 10 men with knives who intended to kill him, he would self delude himself to the point where he genuinely believed he could win. And he'd say it in a way where at least some of them believed it and their morale would drop.

You touched on this a few years ago in one of my favorite articles by you on frame control (I revisited it recently):

You Can Frame Your Way Out of Almost Anything

When you run into a potentially awkward situation with a woman, you need to ask yourself: will she be the one who controls the frame, or will it be you who does? How much of seduction is words, appearance, or actions... and how much of it is just frames? If I walk up to a woman and she acts like...

www.girlschase.com

"I made those muggers who were feeling me out decide I'd be too much trouble to mug -- to much of a question mark; an unknown, potential risk. I was just a skinny kid who didn't really know how to fight... but they didn't know that. All they could tell about me was whatever my frame told them when they tested it"

Its interesting how to become really good at this, you need to remove the "limiters" that you impose on yourself by needing rational evidence.

It's a skill in and of itself.

 

[Regal Tiger]

This might sound kind of stupid, but one of my bigger issues is asking for compliance

Has a lot to do with my childhood probably. But asking anybody for anything is like nails on a chalkboard for me and it's hard to do

Which, as you can imagine, makes asking for compliance kinda difficult lol

 

[TwoNameGame]

This might sound kind of stupid, but one of my bigger issues is asking for compliance

Something that has worked for me is to make compliance feel natural by setting it up in the conversation.

For example, let's say the girl travels a lot and wears an interesting accessory. Ask if there is a story about it, then ask for a better look at her ring/bracelet/earring. It feels less pushy if she says, "It has a cool pattern" and you qualify her by asking see it before brushing her hair away.

Or, you can do so nonverbally to not break up the conversation.

For example, if you want to move her a bit, offer your hand instead of saying "Come". Or move a few steps away to a better position and gesture for her to come by pointing at something cool/ gesturing "come".

It definitely feels less bad for you and gets you used to the idea of asking for compliance.

Think of offering your hand as natural, nonverbal compliance. What do you notice about this?

 

[Regal Tiger]

Something that has worked for me is to make compliance feel natural by setting it up in the conversation.

For example, let's say the girl travels a lot and wears an interesting accessory. Ask if there is a story about it, then ask for a better look at her ring/bracelet/earring. It feels less pushy if she says, "It has a cool pattern" and you qualify her by asking see it before brushing her hair away.

Or, you can do so nonverbally to not break up the conversation.

For example, if you want to move her a bit, offer your hand instead of saying "Come". Or move a few steps away to a better position and gesture for her to come by pointing at something cool/ gesturing "come".

It definitely feels less bad for you and gets you used to the idea of asking for compliance.

Think of offering your hand as natural, nonverbal compliance. What do you notice about this?

I'll give those a shot with my girlfriend and see how they feel. Hopefully when I need it again it'll feel better after the practice!

Thanks