Why disdain for "virgin hunters" in seduction?

[Dough]

Before finding chase's site and community, I went through more seduction sites than I'd care to admit trying to find one that taught a system that worked with my goals and my personality. I've found that practically all seduction circles on the internet subscribe to one main overarching notion, which can be summed up as: "find women who will fuck you right now, everything else is a distraction", and anyone who has a different goal in mind is at risk of being treated as a guy who just hasn't "figured it out" yet.

I understand that is great and useful for men who have that as their goal... but there are other men don't have that as their goal. For me especially I want an old-fashioned alpha provider marriage and I can tell that seduction, when employed correctly, is an indispensable tool to achieve that goal. However, it seems like seduction is wrapped up with a lot of politics around what is "the right way" to utilize the tool. I've especially noticed that a lot of seduction teachers imply that their methods will let you "break out" of the limiting "life script", but then they just go and have their own script that they want you to follow instead. So what's up with that?

 

[ulrich]

Yeah, I think that you are going to find that most self-help communities are like that.

It’s part human nature, part business.

If you were struggling for years with something truly personal and emotional and you tried stuff that didn’t click in, then you finally found a new take on something and you start seeing those results, you would probably go into preacher mode for a short time.
“Guys, I just found the answer and everyone who says other wise is wrong”.
Its pretty common.

I think I went through 6 or 7 of these “I just found the real answer” until I just came to a maturity point when I realized there is so much I just don’t know.

As for “virgin” hunting, I think you need to realize that a big majority of the guys here have a paradigm of more lays = better sex life.
In that sense, yeah, a virgin is far from ideal. They are harder to find, harder to lay, harder to convert to open relationships and sex is usually unremarkable.

But you can use this site as a menu and craft your own recipe for success.

One word of advice, though.
While I understand the benefits of starting a relationship with a low count girl… I think the “virgin” requirement is a little too stringent.
A virgin woman is typically immature and therefore something of a wild card… you really don’t know how she will develop once she discovers her sexuality.
Go for them if you want but making it an absolute priority might blind you from more important character traits that better predict a healthy relationship.
(For the record, I prefer my girlfriends to be anything under 4 partners)

 

[Skills]

No didain, for me guys virgin hunters is cope, a way for them to avoid false paradames:

- if i get a virgin she will not leave me or cheat.
- if i get a virgin is a better relationship

Is also a form of feeling in control and deal with insecurities...

But i dont think in this forum u will get hate a bunch of members here think like u...

 

[Searcher]

As for “virgin hunting”. Many people do prefer virgins or girls with low body count for relationships.

when it comes to one night stands it doesn’t matter much to most guys.

however between girls who are kind of equal in everything else (personality, beauty, etc) for one night stands, I personally prefer girls who have low body count or virgins because there is the fantasy of being her first guy or teaching her the ropes.

 

[HoofHearted]

That's just one perspective.

Maybe, more broadly, this is just learning the means toward getting something you want.

Half the stories these guys write, aka 7 polyamorous girlfriends on ecstasy fucked in bathroom 3hr pull, are just stories I am personally not interested in, and i think are kinda dumb and gross (do you understand what comes out of my asshole in bathrooms?)

But there is no denying that, whatever you want, there are men who learned to fundamentally interact with women. And for some reason they're willing to share their knowledge.

 

[Dough]

- if i get a virgin she will not leave me or cheat.
- if i get a virgin is a better relationship

Let's say you went to take a girl to bed and you learned that her pet dog was trying to get in on the action because she uses him as a sex toy, and then she admitted that she had sex with a horse once. How would you feel about that? It's functionally no different from having sex with a human, it's just a penis. It doesn't impact her ability to give you good sex or probably even her ability to have a relationship. She isn't getting emotionally attached to another human, so no emotional baggage! Heck, If anything it's safer because those animals are less likely to give her an STD than a human is.

But I think you would probably be disgusted, so you're not going to give a crap about any of that adoxography, and you're going to go with your instincts: that you don't want to be involved with her. For me I've always become miserable when I tried to convince myself to override my instincts, instead of using my brain to satisfy them. As the saying goes, you can't logic someone out of a position that they didn't logic themselves into.

 

[StrayDog]

Let's say you went to take a girl to bed and you learned that her pet dog was trying to get in on the action because she uses him as a sex toy, and then she admitted that she had sex with a horse once. How would you feel about that? It's functionally no different from having sex with a human, it's just a penis. It doesn't impact her ability to give you good sex or probably even her ability to have a relationship. She isn't getting emotionally attached to another human, so no emotional baggage! Heck, If anything it's safer because those animals are less likely to give her an STD than a human is.

But I think you would probably be disgusted, so you're not going to give a crap about any of that adoxography, and you're going to go with your instincts: that you don't want to be involved with her. For me I've always become miserable when I tried to convince myself to override my instincts, instead of using my brain to satisfy them. As the saying goes, you can't logic someone out of a position that they didn't logic themselves into.

trying to figure out how this conversation so quickly turned to sex with animals...

 

[Chase]

@Dough,

I've especially noticed that a lot of seduction teachers imply that their methods will let you "break out" of the limiting "life script", but then they just go and have their own script that they want you to follow instead. So what's up with that?

@ulrich has a spot-on reply for you there.

I try to keep things very open-ended in Girls Chase articles. We get all kinds of guys there, men looking for all kinds of things, and in my view I'm just setting out tools and mindsets and approaches for them to choose from and apply as they see fit.

Once you get to a seduction community / forum though, you have a variety of sexually experienced men who are focused on doing a lot of volume with women. No guy cares if she's a virgin past a certain level of experience; your average high count seducer has bedded more virgins purely incidentally than several virgin hunters combined, but at no point has he stopped and said, "This one. This is the virgin I'll marry." Most experienced guys do wife girls up sooner or later, but it's never the virgins... an intact hymen is just not of much real value to an experienced guy.

So, you end up having a disconnect: you get very inexperienced low count men who want a virgin so they will feel more in control of the relationship (due to a female virgin having even less sexual/romantic experience than they have). Then they come onto a seduction forum, filled with highly experienced men who don't care if she's had a few cocks in her (some won't care if she's had cocks a'plenty in her, even for LTRs), and start talking about their desire to find a girl to deflower and hang onto.

It's like walking into the Olympic swim hall and striking up a conversation with the Olympic swimmers and talking about how you want to hang out in the kiddie pool because you like how warm the water is and how comfortable it is there and that you think that's a lot better than the big, huge, deep, cold pools the Olympic swimmers are always swimming in. Nobody cares if a guy wants to sit in a kiddie pool in his backyard or something, but why's he going on about it at the Olympic swim hall? It puts the pros off.

Doesn't mean you can't use lessons from Olympic swimmers in the kiddie pool. But you probably won't get far talking to the pros about your dreams of floating lazily about in that warm, serene, shallow water.

Chase

 

[Teevster]

Unless one is pedophile, or wants to shag a female quasimodo, the odds of the girls being a virgin - as in, a girl with 0 sexual experience is close to 0.

And no, in my book you are no true "virgin" if:
- You get assfucked
- Suck dick at parties
- Say the previous guy(s) you had sex with "doesn't count"

Most "virgins" are girls who get assrammed or suck dick, or has done so.

"Virgin" is not the same as being sexual inactive.

I have had anal sex with "virgins" because they wanted to keep their virginity for "virgin hunters". Most of these girls where either Christian or Muslim zealots.

I don't understand why a girl with a destroyed asshole is so appealing... can someone please explain this to me?

A girl who gets regularily assfucked tend to have more chances of having serious STI's.

Now, some are only cockcuckers and have a low risk of carrying diseases, but still, why is a girl who has sucked cocks so much more appealing than a girl who had her pussy fucked once or twice?

I need clarifications.

Thank you in advance.

Best,
Teevster

 

[Dough]

"Virgin" is not the same as being sexual inactive.

I find it interesting that you define virgin that way, because to me virgin means that she's never been sexually active.

 

[Dough]

It's like walking into the Olympic swim hall and striking up a conversation with the Olympic swimmers and talking about how you want to hang out in the kiddie pool because you like how warm the water is and how comfortable it is there and that you think that's a lot better than the big, huge, deep, cold pools the Olympic swimmers are always swimming in. Nobody cares if a guy wants to sit in a kiddie pool in his backyard or something, but why's he going on about it at the Olympic swim hall? It puts the pros off.

Chase, I don't understand this premise. If the process were as simple as: walk into the supermarket, talk to a random cute girl, bring her on an instant date, find out that coincidentally we want the same things and she's never touched a dick before, then make her my girlfriend the next day happily ever after and enjoy my seduction kiddie pool with zero prior practice and foundational knowledge on my part, then I wouldn't need this website.

Guys sit around all the time telling dudes about how women with zero sexual experience don't exist, that it's a silly pipe dream, that it's an unreasonable goal. And in a lot of ways I do believe they make great points, arguing for guys to simplify and settle for something easier.

But if this is true, then doesn't that make it one of the hardest goals of all? To approach the women who are among the most difficult to approach because they don't think about sex, don't know how to help you move the seduction along, and will easily auto-reject. In addition to that you also need to avoid being deceived by women who are just pretending, and for whom deceiving you is in their own best interest.
Doesn't this require Olympic skill?

This seems like a fox and the grapes situation to me.

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

I have had anal sex with "virgins" because they wanted to keep their virginity for "virgin hunters". Most of these girls where either Christian or Muslim zealots.

+1... that's a thing.

The main problem with virgin hunting is this: by even communicating to her that you are looking for a "pure girl", you are setting yourself up to be taken for a ride due to the female "dual mating strategy" (worth reading up on).

This is why framing is so powerful: if a girl likes you, she will mold herself to fit what you're looking for as much as possible. MasterOfDisaster and I once banged the same girl within a week, and she was a "good girl" for him and a "slut" for me just because MoD forgot to set sexual frames on her.

You can even go into a strip club some time and play the "I'm looking for a nice sweet girl" card... and even there, many girls will convince you that "oh I've only been working here for 2 weeks and never interacted with any guys yet... just dancing."

 

[Dough]

The main problem with virgin hunting is this: by even communicating to her that you are looking for a "pure girl", you are setting yourself up to be taken for a ride due to the female "dual mating strategy" (worth reading up on).

Yup, I've read about that, about how you need to get the girl to reveal herself to you without any expectations placed upon her. That's why I don't understand the premise that virgins are "easy mode", you need a bunch of foundational knowledge to not get taken for a ride in the first place!

On the topic of the dual mating strategy, my paradigm is that from history: A woman's chastity is traded for a man's provisioning. Therefore a girl who cannot give me her chastity is not worthy of receiving my provisioning. But at the same time, I WANT a marriage, I think that's sick. So the kind of woman who is deserving of me follows.

And the funny thing is that the seduction pros are doing exactly this. They're having sex with women who have touched cocks before, and they aren't provisioning those women. So they're behaving in a way that's congruent with my own view, and congruent with the dual mating strategy.

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

I've slept with a number of virgins, but I found them through regular game and discovered they were virgins right before having sex with them. I've also dated a number of girls who I would consider wife material, but I met them through game and creating abundance, not by trying to find a wife.

I get the purity fantasy, I think some girls really are relatively chaste. I met a mid 20s virgin once and I was NOT able to crack that nut in 3 dates. But I think this is one of those situations where "looking prevents seeing" if you know what I mean.

I.e. trying to find out her virginity status early will change the outcome of the set and of the relationship. Best bet is to game all girls the same way and let the chips fall where they may. Some will be virgins, some will turn out great wife material, and a lot of fun along the way.

2c.

 

[Dough]

Thanks Ricardus, good brainfood.

 

[Chase]

@Dough,

your average high count seducer has bedded more virgins purely incidentally than several virgin hunters combined

This seems like a fox and the grapes situation to me.

Your mental model fails to account for a key bit of information here:

In this story, the fox is eating more grapes than anyone else.

Chase, I don't understand this premise. If the process were as simple as: walk into the supermarket, talk to a random cute girl, bring her on an instant date, find out that coincidentally we want the same things and she's never touched a dick before, then make her my girlfriend the next day happily ever after and enjoy my seduction kiddie pool with zero prior practice and foundational knowledge on my part, then I wouldn't need this website.

I'm not hating on virgin hunters. I have advised plenty of guys on where best to find virgins if that is what they're looking for.

You however asked why virgin hunters don't get no respect on seduction forums. Just as I can answer the "how do I get my virgin?" question, I can also answer the "why don't seducers respect guys looking for their virgin?" question.

Guys sit around all the time telling dudes about how women with zero sexual experience don't exist, that it's a silly pipe dream, that it's an unreasonable goal.

Not on this forum. Well... not generally.

We have LRs going up pretty frequently with guys taking girls' virginities.

Just a couple of virgin LRs from this past year:

• LR: Tale of the virgin
• LR: +1 DWW Virgin I Only Met Twice
• LR: Train Station 22-y-o Virgin

Guys sit around all the time telling dudes about how women with zero sexual experience don't exist, that it's a silly pipe dream, that it's an unreasonable goal. And in a lot of ways I do believe they make great points, arguing for guys to simplify and settle for something easier.

But if this is true, then doesn't that make it one of the hardest goals of all? To approach the women who are among the most difficult to approach because they don't think about sex, don't know how to help you move the seduction along, and will easily auto-reject. In addition to that you also need to avoid being deceived by women who are just pretending, and for whom deceiving you is in their own best interest.
Doesn't this require Olympic skill?

There are two reasons men tell other men this:

• Past the age of 17 or so, the number of female virgins diminishes rapidly by the year
  
  
• Most men hearing this who are craving for virgins are virgins or nearly so themselves -- and are exactly the least likely to be able to lay a virgin at that point

You don't hear 16 y/o boys telling other 16 y/o boys, "Give it up, Johnny, there are no virgins left!" because there still are at that age. Instead they are whispering, "Yo, I heard she's still a virgin. You gonna be the one to pop it?"

By your early twenties, you end up with two classes of men:

• Playboys, who are still having their buddies whisper to them, "Yo man, you think that chick is a virgin? You gonna pop it?"
  
  
• Non-playboys who are fixated on virgins, whose buddies are telling them, "Give it up, man. It's unrealistic to think you're going to find a virgin this old!"

IOW, you are late to the party here, my man.

There are still virgins in their early 20s, but they are having their cherries popped by frat boys and townie chads and the odd college boyfriend there and about.

By their middle 20s you basically have a few girls with super strict upbringings and a few asexual girls and a few girls with weird anti-social personality disorders or autism who are virgins, but that's about it.

Laying these girls is generally not difficult. Some of them still have high mental barriers to sex, but a guy with the skill set can generally overcome that if he's dedicated to it enough.

You know who IS the hardest girl to lay?

The nympho who's been with hundreds of men and knows every move a playboy can make and isn't into you for whatever reason. Good luck getting that girl... the odds are basically nil.

Anyway, no problem in my book if you wanna go for virgins. Get after 'em!

But since you asked, well -- there you are.

Chase

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

@DoughIn this story, the fox is eating more grapes than anyone else.

Ha! I had that in my post too before the first edit lol. Great minds and all.

You don't hear 16 y/o boys telling other 16 y/o boys, "Give it up, Johnny, there are no virgins left!" because there still are at that age. Instead they are whispering, "Yo, I heard she's still a virgin. You gonna be the one to pop it?"

Great movie about that:

Kids (1995) ⭐ 7.0 | Drama

1h 31m | NC-17

www.imdb.com

Advisory this movie is going to make many people's heads explode.

There are still virgins in their early 20s, but they are having their cherries popped by frat boys and townie chads and the odd college boyfriend there and about.

And PUAs

 

[Teevster]

I find it interesting that you define virgin that way, because to me virgin means that she's never been sexually active.

These are either ugly or very young. Most girls past 20 are not virgins... and those who are, that are NOT ugly as hell, are probably nutjobs.

I have taken some virginities (usually girls who are like 18 or 20 or so, begging me to just "do it" because they are fed up with being virgins). So claiming seducers only fuck "sluts" and "girls who have touched dicks before" is a mental construct of yours.

-Teevster

 

[Fuck This]

I think V hunters are looking for naive women who are easy prey and not experienced in the ways of the world. The women don't know any better and are more easily manipulated. That is the way I see it with more than 4 decades on this earth.

I'll let you in on something...If a woman doesn't have a boyfriend, and sex by the time she is old enough to buy liquor in the US, then she is deficient in social skills, looks, has overprotective parents, or has been cooped up in a convent. There is something wrong....

Sex is part of the relationship contract, and if a woman thinks she can have an exclusive relationship without sex she is delusional.

 

[ulrich]

On the topic of the dual mating strategy, my paradigm is that from history: A woman's chastity is traded for a man's provisioning. Therefore a girl who cannot give me her chastity is not worthy of receiving my provisioning. But at the same time, I WANT a marriage, I think that's sick. So the kind of woman who is deserving of me follows.

In this time and age, where women are motivated and even rewarded to have active sexual lives, I would suggest you give this a second thought.

Not saying YOU HAVE TO think the way we think. Just consider this… I don’t think purity for provisioning is a good trade.

There are many indicators of wether a woman will be a good wife (nurturing character, sweet personality, good family relationships, mentally balanced…) and virginity is not precisely one of those.
In today’s age, virginity is more likely an indicator of age and religious upbringing… neither of which predicts accurately if she will be loyal, nurturing or submissive.

I understand the yuck factor.

Just saying, if you’re looking for the best possible wife, this is also worth considering.