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Why disdain for "virgin hunters" in seduction?

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HoofHearted

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You are correct sir

It's so dumb that if it were in person i would just walk away

i hope you otherwise smart men don't attach to the subject.

I'm just sticking up for the fact that is getting overshadowed. Nothing has to be a skeazefest and i think OP may actually be retarded.
 

Conquistador

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About frames and persuasion, I think enough has been said already, but I'll add my two cents because why the hell not?

Methods like this are widely used in business, politics, diplomacy, activism (!), etc.

Enough said.
 

Dough

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Yeah, this forum is definitely the wrong place for me if the majority of people here believe that outright lying to girls to deceive them into having sex with you under entirely false pretenses is an alright thing to do.
 

Conquistador

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I find this interesting because I got a totally different conclusion from that post. I didn't conclude that men who provision automatically get cheated, but rather that men who are not able to satisfy their women sexually get cheated. It just so coincidentally happens that men try to use provisioning as a crutch to avoid needing to learn how to be sexy. As Chase says in the post himself, "these traits may appear to be opposed but they are not mutually exclusive", and "the best seducers have some provider value backing up their focus on lover value".
This is more or less true.
Also the point of "pussy for provision" - that's not really how I'm thinking. I'm thinking of "chastity for provision".
Well, you still have to get there first.
As in, if she can't keep her legs shut and back up her side of the social contract by exercising self-restraint then she can go be with someone else, because there are other women out there who are staying chaste and who are able to control themselves that deserve me in their life more than she does.
It's not so simple. That social contract no longer exists (if it ever did in America).
Ideally, in a culture that practiced early marriage and takes chastity seriously, this would be the case. The general culture of the 21st-century West is not such a culture.
I'll be the first to admit that this may be because of inexperience, but I don't buy the premise that every woman in the world is a cock hopping animal incapable of controlling their own emotions and behavior. Are the vast majority of them? Yeah, for sure. The same is true for men. Not going to argue with that. But I don't believe that the virtues of temperance are unique to men. Maybe that's what it comes down to at the end of the day and the whole chastity thing is missing the forest for the trees: I highly value temperance and consider its virtues to be fundamental aspects of who I am as a person, and want a woman who sees herself in the same way.
The entire reason why I'm here is that my family and religious community have ditched their end of their version of social contract that makes such things emotionally, financially, and otherwise feasible. Otherwise I'd be a paragon of chastity, because I'm still a true believer. I believe that chastity isn't worth the cost imposed by circumstances.

So it's wild oats time for me. My self-imposed RoEs (e.g. no married women, no devil's threesomes) are more than enough restraint; I will not be holding back once I cross the Rubicon.

Also, in women, sexual promiscuity tends to be somewhat less correlated with sex drive.
For instance, chaste and/or religious women often are much less sexually self-aware than chaste and/or religious men, particularly in the 21st-century urban environment. Partly because it's harder for most women to discover their sexuality on their own.
Plus many religious women are in touch with their female energy in nonsexual ways. (It may have something to do with having breasts and a uterus.) Women have outlets other than being a slightly insane genius like Tesla, Lawrence, General Gordon, or my guru (no I'm not a Sikh, I use the term in the Californian sense). None of those great aces were strictly neurotypical to start with by the way.
Something that Chase has certainly written about somewhere, is the idea that to achieve an abundance mentality you need to genuinely believe that your presence in the life of a woman is one of the greatest possible gifts to her. Maybe I applied it in a way that wasn't intended, but I believe in that wholeheartedly. And that is a gift that I only want to give to one person who is truly worthy of it - there is only one of me, after all. So I find it fascinating that there's a lot of talk here about men wanting a chaste woman out of fear, but my motivations are out of arrogance.
Mine are out of arrogance too, frankly. Part of the reason why I haven't laid a girl yet is that my amour-propre requires that my first lay be her first real experience of real intercourse. And when I do eventually marry, I do expect that if my wife been religious since puberty, that she has been acting in accordance with our shared beliefs.
Note the word choice and phrasing.
So maybe that's why it feels like I'm talking past you guys and you're talking past me, in a way. It seems to be the case that I'm not even thinking about the same women as you. I'm thinking of the ones who are intentionally exercising self-control because doing so is an important part of their identity.
With such women, seducing explicitly and moving fast might not work. Or it might. Or it might work, then backfire, long term. The skillset and rules of psychology, fundamentals, etc. still apply. But you won't learn anything from Teevster, no offense Teev

I want to reward one of those women with myself so she doesn't have to settle for an unattractive provider, or get her diligence wasted by a player.
A noble goal. In theory.
(I'm sure you've seen guides floating around the internet on using frame control to basically rape women that are protecting their chastity, which is especially insidious because they don't have the experience to know how to defend themselves against it)
Well, no, because SNL and club game don't work on girls who seriously value chastity and don't go to clubs. I know religious girls (not all of whom belong to my denomination) who simply wouldn't, not of their own free will. (One of my sisters is becoming one.) And I know religious girls who appear exactly the same as those on the surface, but who would listen to their hormones, in the right situation. (Another sister might become one, too early to tell.)
And I know guys who know ostensibly religious girls who reportedly know third base intimately.

Look OP, you're still more idealistic than I am. That's not a bad thing, but prepare to get hurt a few times. I was, and now I've had enough.
 

Dough

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No one said that. No point on taking the high moral stance.
Maybe I misread the intention, but I thought that's what Surveyor was saying. "These methods are used in xyz", implying that because it's done elsewhere then it's fine. Gunwitch also said "it's a tool in your toolbox", which seemed like he was giving his blessing to people who use that tool.
 

Conquistador

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Maybe I misread the intention, but I thought that's what Surveyor was saying. "These methods are used in xyz", implying that because it's done elsewhere then it's fine. Gunwitch also said "it's a tool in your toolbox", which seemed like he was giving his blessing to people who use that tool.
On a girl who really does want to get laid? Yes, so long as you're not using the dark side to coerce her in sketchy ways.
 

Gunwitch

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Gunwitch also said "it's a tool in your toolbox", which seemed like he was giving his blessing to people who use that tool.

I am, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater though, which is kind of what you'll be doing taking high moral ground on this issue. Instead of just using the tech how you see fit. It's all just tools, who cares what any of us are doing when it comes to your behavior and goals? That starts to come off more like enjoying debating morals on a forum than doing your own thing, your own way, and picking and choosing the techniques you see fit to use for your goals.

Question got answered why it causes knee jerk disdain, and this can be part of it, guys with this attitude and goal often ram their morals down the forums throat also. Gotta realize lot of different upbringings, cultures, religions, lack of, morals, ideals, ages etc etc etc on a public forum. Or instead of learning you just learn to ask questions and debate peoples opinions pretty much.

This kind of covertly slipped in the backdoor as "why don't guys like virgin hunters" to "is it moral to lie to women". Maybe no malice, just an evolving conversation sure, but again goes back to my first answer, it's a canary in the coal mine that almost every time a guy comes with this question and ideal, they start moralizing, even proselytizing about technical specifics. Why people go "SIGH another one......"

Don't like anything just don't use it.


Gun
 

Dough

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It's not so simple. That social contract no longer exists (if it ever did in America).
Ideally, in a culture that practiced early marriage and takes chastity seriously, this would be the case. The general culture of the 21st-century West is not such a culture.
Well okay, then what does a man do to find somewhere with that social contract? That really seems to be the sticking point here; the presence or lack of that social contract.
 
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Will_V

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Before finding chase's site and community, I went through more seduction sites than I'd care to admit trying to find one that taught a system that worked with my goals and my personality. I've found that practically all seduction circles on the internet subscribe to one main overarching notion, which can be summed up as: "find women who will fuck you right now, everything else is a distraction", and anyone who has a different goal in mind is at risk of being treated as a guy who just hasn't "figured it out" yet.

I understand that is great and useful for men who have that as their goal... but there are other men don't have that as their goal. For me especially I want an old-fashioned alpha provider marriage and I can tell that seduction, when employed correctly, is an indispensable tool to achieve that goal. However, it seems like seduction is wrapped up with a lot of politics around what is "the right way" to utilize the tool. I've especially noticed that a lot of seduction teachers imply that their methods will let you "break out" of the limiting "life script", but then they just go and have their own script that they want you to follow instead. So what's up with that?

You are a theorist, and you are talking politically instead of practically. It's clear you have very little experience with women or seduction.

You cannot seduce any woman, virgin or otherwise, nor keep her and have her behaving well and following your rules, without strong frame control and the ability to persuade, exaggerate, and even tell white lies. The ability to have your way with the world by a variety of means (and that includes your woman) is part of what makes her stick by you - she knows you're not going to capitulate to some weak opposition that she (or anyone else) regurgitates from her social conditioning, she knows you are going to be able to deal with her bullshit anxieties and drama that afterward she regrets, she knows that all she has to do is follow you, comply with your requests, accept your frame, and she will end up in a happy and satisfied place.

That's a very liberating place for a woman to be, and a guy who cannot do that and is always questioning his own motives is going to be dropped like a bag of rotten tomatoes.

It does not mean pretending you're something you're not or telling her something that is outright untrue - telling a woman 'I want to marry you' when you don't is a pretty scummy move and I don't think anyone here advocates that. But telling her "I don't get into a serious relationship with someone that I don't know I'm sexually compatible with" is a perfectly reasonable thing to say, and I've said things to that effect many times.

This inability to process the subtleties and nuances of seduction and the female experience shows your lack of experience with women, I suggest you work on that first so that you can at least have a productive conversation in a forum like this and maybe even learn to keep your virgin around after she gets curious about all these guys that seem to actually know what they are doing.
 

Dough

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You cannot seduce any woman, virgin or otherwise, nor keep her and have her behaving well and following your rules, without strong frame control and the ability to persuade, exaggerate, and even tell white lies. The ability to have your way with the world by a variety of means (and that includes your woman) is part of what makes her stick by you - she knows you're not going to capitulate to some weak opposition that she (or anyone else) regurgitates from her social conditioning, she knows you are going to be able to deal with her bullshit anxieties and drama that afterward she regrets, she knows that all she has to do is follow you, comply with your requests, accept your frame, and she will end up in a happy and satisfied place.
Yeah, I know all that. I think my tenacity and my refusal to take anyone's shit is my single most attractive trait. After all I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to accomplish something that modern western society is telling me is impossible, and that even seducers are telling me is a pipe dream. Like, I'm not here to be convinced otherwise, I've made my mind up already. I want to know how to accomplish the thing, and the reasons why I can't/don't/shouldn't - those are only obstacles to be overcome. Although this thread has derailed from the original post long ago. If I was the kind of guy who's easily deterred then I literally wouldn't be here, and I wouldn't have the career that I have either - everyone tells you that it's impossible, but I did it anyway.
 
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Conquistador

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Well okay, then what does a man do to find somewhere with that social contract? That really seems to be the sticking point here; the presence or lack of that social contract.
Religious communities and other countries.
 

Dough

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Religious communities
I thought you said yourself that this isn't working out in your experience? I mean, if it works, then I could just cold approach some random mennonite mom (there's a LOT where I live, always chaperoning their daughters while shopping etc) and get her to bring me to her church. But the last one I talked to told me that they're born again christians and my understanding of born again christians is that what I want will not be found with them!
 
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Conquistador

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I thought you said yourself that this isn't working out in your experience?
It DOES work out. Just not in my case. For now. (In fact, under the historical form of my community's highly successful social contract, I would likely be living the dream.) Most likely, I will soon go forth and conquer with a clear conscience on the grounds of necessity. After all, I was taught practical real-life ethics, not dogmatic self-sabotage.

But that is irrelevant.

Look, there's no free lunch. Unless you are both the sort of unambitious, mediocre people who have historically formed the dependable base of most stable societies (in which case, just make it work), the challenges of building a household are such that finding a virgin will be the least of your problems.

Plus, courtship is never a straightforward thing. If you're patient though, can express lover value in a socially acceptable way, have provider value as well, and take your religion seriously and honestly in both belief and practice, well...

Let's just say that in a strictly monogamous society, the guys who would get harems tend to get complete-package princesses instead.

I appreciate your actually reading and responding to my offhand rambling textwalls.
 
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reeax

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OK let me add my two cents to this thread .. I think the most realistic way to get intimate with a virgin is simply to be in an appropriate age group.

Decades before, I had sex & an ensuing relationship with two virgins. Girls were somewhere between 15 and 16 YO, and I was a 17 something.

What were their stories? One was in a competition to get laid before her friend. The other one tried with another guy but he was unable to execute, so she wanted a guy with more experience to seal the deal.

I got into a shorter relationship with the first one. After me, she went into full-time clubbing mode, taking pills, making out with random guys, taking them home etc. I had a longer relationship with the second one, she was a real stunner. At the same time, she was a living nightmare in terms of character. Very understandably, some time later, she also wanted to taste other cocks.

So that's basically what you can expect from your innocent virgins. They will just become normal women, like a chick becomes a chicken.

My ex-girlfriend is a well-known psychologist. The only 20+ YO virgins i heard about were her patients. And for younger girls, do you really think their parents want an old guy to bang her, and come to a family dinner on Sunday? They'll beat your ass with a baseball bat.
 

HoofHearted

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You are a theorist, and you are talking politically instead of practically. It's clear you have very little experience with women or seduction.

You cannot seduce any woman, virgin or otherwise, nor keep her and have her behaving well and following your rules, without strong frame control and the ability to persuade, exaggerate, and even tell white lies. The ability to have your way with the world by a variety of means (and that includes your woman) is part of what makes her stick by you - she knows you're not going to capitulate to some weak opposition that she (or anyone else) regurgitates from her social conditioning, she knows you are going to be able to deal with her bullshit anxieties and drama that afterward she regrets, she knows that all she has to do is follow you, comply with your requests, accept your frame, and she will end up in a happy and satisfied place.

That's a very liberating place for a woman to be, and a guy who cannot do that and is always questioning his own motives is going to be dropped like a bag of rotten tomatoes.

It does not mean pretending you're something you're not or telling her something that is outright untrue - telling a woman 'I want to marry you' when you don't is a pretty scummy move and I don't think anyone here advocates that. But telling her "I don't get into a serious relationship with someone that I don't know I'm sexually compatible with" is a perfectly reasonable thing to say, and I've said things to that effect many times.

This inability to process the subtleties and nuances of seduction and the female experience shows your lack of experience with women, I suggest you work on that first so that you can at least have a productive conversation in a forum like this and maybe even learn to keep your virgin around after she gets curious about all these guys that seem to actually know what they are doing.
This guy is my favorite poster

Now delete this entire goddamn thread lol
 

Chase

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This thread started off as "Why don't virgin hunters get any respect on pickup forums?" and then when the OP received his answers he began arguing with everyone about why his way was better and what they are doing is wrong.

It's fine to be romantically and sexually inexperienced. It is fine to have fantasies about women. It is fine to be idealistic and naïve even. It is not fine to adopt extreme, idealistic positions then come on and begin arguing with everyone more experienced than you that you are some kind of paragon of morality while they are no more than decadent libertines.

A few points though:

  • Very, very, very few virgins older than 15 are virgins because they are holding out for The One. Lonely, inexperienced men have this fantasy, but -- I'm very sorry -- that's all it is; a fantasy

  • While I don't agree with it at all, telling a girl a big lie like she is your soul mate or you want to marry her when this is not true is super sleazy, but calling it rape is very 2010s feminist of a guy

  • That said, while we do get dirtbag posts like that on here (perhaps once or twice a year), they are always from desperate guys who don't get laid much and are pursuing such girls out of desperation (or, occasionally, just a general lack of scruples). I won't advise these guys, nor will most senior members, except to say, "Dude. Find another girl"

  • The seduction community mantra is "leave her better than you found her" and we repeatedly tell guys not to hurt girls. I and the other skilled guys here won't teach tech that is easy to grossly misuse. Pretty much every skilled guy here has rules about certain kinds of girls he WON'T sleep with, simply because it's not good for the girl. A virgin with strong values waiting for marriage would be such a girl... but do these girls even exist? I have met perhaps two in my adult lifetime (and one of them in a flash started talking to me about sucking dick)

Anyway, the original question of the thread has been answered:

Virgin hunters don't get respect on seduction forums because they pull shenanigans like this... where the thread devolves into them taking extreme positions, claiming that virginity is some unalloyed good, men who aren't looking for commitment having sex with virgins is wasteful and wrong, that seduction is trickery and treachery, then claiming that a few dirtbag seducers trying to lie their way into girls' pants means any guy who wants to have sex with girls is a dirtbag by association.

Having sex with women is what men do, and having sex with men is what women do. And there is a first time for everyone. The first time a human engages in this act that all humans are driven to engage in is called "losing one's virginity", and it is not special, there is no ceremony for it, no fireworks go off, the person doesn't transform into a different person, and nothing is gained nor lost.

To the OP: if you have practical questions, such as, "I'm looking for virgins, but not sure where to meet them. Recommendations?" or, "How can I tell the difference between a girl who is actually a virgin vs. one who is just going along with it or not revealing her past because she can tell I'm looking for virgins?" start those in a separate thread.

If on the other hand you want to argue that men and women engaging in sex acts is a bad thing, or that it should only occur within the confines of marriage, or that sex sullies the soul, or anything else along those lines, take it to the church, because this sure ain't the place for it.

Chase
 
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