Why disdain for "virgin hunters" in seduction?

[Skills]

I've slept with a number of virgins, but I found them through regular game and discovered they were virgins right before having sex with them. I've also dated a number of girls who I would consider wife material, but I met them through game and creating abundance, not by trying to find a wife.

I get the purity fantasy, I think some girls really are relatively chaste. I met a mid 20s virgin once and I was NOT able to crack that nut in 3 dates. But I think this is one of those situations where "looking prevents seeing" if you know what I mean.

I.e. trying to find out her virginity status early will change the outcome of the set and of the relationship. Best bet is to game all girls the same way and let the chips fall where they may. Some will be virgins, some will turn out great wife material, and a lot of fun along the way.

2c.

Yeah op ^ i make this point, and other point in my women are women, series if you want to get practical i.would review the series:

Special Girl - Ways to get low lay count girls and virgins regardless of game style....Women are women part 3.-

Before reading this i will advise you to read women are women part 1, and women are women part 2, also i encourage you to use CRITICAL THINKING and make your OWN CONCLUSIONS...This is a continuation and a follow to different posts and promises i made on how to do this specially night game.... i...

www.skilledseducer.com

 

[topcat]

Let's say you went to take a girl to bed and you learned that her pet dog was trying to get in on the action because she uses him as a sex toy, and then she admitted that she had sex with a horse once. How would you feel about that? It's functionally no different from having sex with a human, it's just a penis. It doesn't impact her ability to give you good sex or probably even her ability to have a relationship. She isn't getting emotionally attached to another human, so no emotional baggage! Heck, If anything it's safer because those animals are less likely to give her an STD than a human is.

what the fuck

 

[FunGuy]

I think looking for a woman with low body count makes perfect sense but a virgin is a bit extreme. The only exception would be for guys who are super young like under 19.

Btw where are you guys meeting all these virgins and low body count women, I need to go to these places

 

[Dough]

Just consider this… I don’t think purity for provisioning is a good trade.

So what is a good trade in your eyes then? All the things you mentioned that a woman can provide a man, they will provide freely without provisioning. Maybe they'll get tired of you, but you can hop on to the next girl anyway, they're a dime a dozen once you're good at seduction.

 

[ulrich]

So what is a good trade in your eyes then? All the things you mentioned that a woman can provide a man, they will provide freely without provisioning. Maybe they'll get tired of you, but you can hop on to the next girl anyway, they're a dime a dozen once you're good at seduction.

Good companionship, quality genes, a family life and fit children.

And I know, even that you can get it from SOME women without marrying them.
But if you are going to marry anyways or if you’re considering conceding marriage to make your woman more content with the relationship, you might as well get the better partner over the inexperienced one.

Just food for the thought.

 

[Gunwitch]

Before finding chase's site and community, I went through more seduction sites than I'd care to admit trying to find one that taught a system that worked with my goals and my personality. I've found that practically all seduction circles on the internet subscribe to one main overarching notion, which can be summed up as: "find women who will fuck you right now, everything else is a distraction", and anyone who has a different goal in mind is at risk of being treated as a guy who just hasn't "figured it out" yet.

I understand that is great and useful for men who have that as their goal... but there are other men don't have that as their goal. For me especially I want an old-fashioned alpha provider marriage and I can tell that seduction, when employed correctly, is an indispensable tool to achieve that goal. However, it seems like seduction is wrapped up with a lot of politics around what is "the right way" to utilize the tool. I've especially noticed that a lot of seduction teachers imply that their methods will let you "break out" of the limiting "life script", but then they just go and have their own script that they want you to follow instead. So what's up with that?

Cat out of the bag man it's the guys who always talk like this who are Indian and Asian race whiners, so it causes a knee jerk irritation in many long time community guys.

I've had students tell me "I want a white western woman who has a stripper look, but a virgin".......

To which I think "yeah i'd like Taylor Swift to strip me naked and hit me in the asshole with a frying pan too, probably never happen"

I don't think anyone "hates" on virgin hunting, it's just such a loud vocal category of incels, race whiners, MRAs, mgtows etc that harp on it, that it gets annoying to seasoned community guys.

By all means use the tech and look for that if it's what your end goal is though. Are lamer hobbies/goals.


Gun

 

[DoWhatWorks]

Btw where are you guys meeting all these virgins and low body count women, I need to go to these places

Don’t look for them, just sleep with a load of girls and a few will be virgins lol… I found one on Tinder of all places… Same technique applies to Wifey material too

 

[Fuck This]

Cat out of the bag man it's the guys who always talk like this who are Indian and Asian race whiners, so it causes a knee jerk irritation in many long time community guys.

I've had students tell me "I want a white western woman who has a stripper look, but a virgin".......

To which I think "yeah i'd like Taylor Swift to strip me naked and hit me in the asshole with a frying pan too, probably never happen"

I don't think anyone "hates" on virgin hunting, it's just such a loud vocal category of incels, race whiners, MRAs, mgtows etc that harp on it, that it gets annoying to seasoned community guys.

By all means use the tech and look for that if it's what your end goal is though. Are lamer hobbies/goals.


Gun

I don't see PUA's flocking to religion to find their virgin though . The old cow/milk analogy....

Maybe that was Roosh's play?

 

[ulrich]

I guess if you wanted to pop virgins you could target church’s and youth religious groups.

Will you pop their cherries or will they convert you to chastity first?
Now that’s playing with fire.

 

[Teevster]

Heck, If anything it's safer because those animals are less likely to give her an STD than a human is.

Are you SURE about that?

Read up on the origin stories of:
- HIV-1 and 2
- Chlamydia
- Eh... MONKEYpox...


Food for though.

Best,
Teevster

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

A friend/wing of mine has actually fucked many dozens of virgins... he's a virgin hunter PUA, i.e. not in it for the perfect wife but for how fresh innocent and sweet they are I guess. He would probably tell you to use online dating and set the age filter really young, those are your best odds.

As for her trading her pussy for your provisioning, that puts you square in the provider role. Chase had a thread about that a few days ago. You're basically begging to get cuckolded at that point cause if she sees you as the provider, her genes will scream for a lover every month come ovulation time.

Also interesting, I've read that women in traditional societies were gung-ho on marrying young so they could finally get rid of that pesky hymen... cause once that was gone, they were free to sleep around without anyone being able to prove it.

Just because a woman is a virgin when you meet her doesn't mean she's going to stay chaste, or that she's low sex drive. These societies also had strict penalties for infidelity in place, which don't exist anymore.

Maybe your best bet is joining the Amish. I'm not mocking you by the way, I get the appeal in what you seek, I just think your goal is more complicated than finding a virgin.

For what you're looking for, I would rather screen based on her values and morals, and I would observe those over time rather than communicating them to her directly... cause once she knows what you want, it's very easy to fake. As per my strip club example above.

P.S. HIV etc. - I don't believe in virus theory anymore, I recommend researching exosome theory and terrain theory.

 

[Chase]

I think V hunters are looking for naive women who are easy prey and not experienced in the ways of the world. The women don't know any better and are more easily manipulated. That is the way I see it with more than 4 decades on this earth.

Most of them are just very inexperienced men who know with their inexperience they won't be able to corral a more experienced gal in a relationship. In this, they are correct. Imagine your average clueless virgin deciding he's going to marry a girl who's shagged 20 guys and had 6 boyfriends. He'll get demolished in that relationship.

"I need a pure virgin" is the logical stance given an inexperienced guy's position, if we also assume he is resistant to putting the energy into really learning game and/or simply doesn't have the capacity to learn it very well.

The problem only happens when he experiences cognitive dissonance seeing other men not prize virgins, and rushes in to assuage that by announcing that prizing virgins is the best thing and not prizing virgins is a sign of a bad thing. Then everyone gets annoyed, he experiences more dissonance, and asks why everyone is annoyed at this.

Also interesting, I've read that women in traditional societies were gung-ho on marrying young so they could finally get rid of that pesky hymen... cause once that was gone, they were free to sleep around without anyone being able to prove it.

This is what happens in Saudi Arabia, probably the sexually strictest / most conservative country in the world.

The women have to keep their hymens until marriage. Unless they marry young, most of them end up doing anal with their boyfriends / fiancés. Some are massive butt sluts while others just do it with the guy they think they will marry (but that doesn't always work out... sometimes they break up). There's a hilarious story I came across about a married Saudi couple going to the doctor trying to figure out why the wife couldn't get pregnant. The doctor ran all these tests, found they were both very fertile, couldn't figure it out, then finally asked, "Hey... when you have sex, which hole are you putting it in?" and discovered they were only having sex up the wife's butt. He explained the husband needed to put his penis into the wife's vagina and their eyes both bulged and they ended up thanking the doctor profusely. Turned out they'd never even tried it, lol.

One of the crazy things that happened in Saudi Arabia was that as soon as Facebook was introduced, the divorce rate exploded from almost nothing to one of the highest in the world. At first they couldn't figure out what happened, but some sociologists stepped in to figure it out: women weren't having sex before marriage, but once married, their hymens were gone, and now they could have sex without leaving any trace. But in Saudi society women can't socialize with men in public so they had no way to meet other potential lovers before Facebook. With Facebook, suddenly married women who no longer had to protect their hymens could meet men via Facebook, leading to married Saudi women having affairs all over the place, falling in love with their affair partners, and divorcing their first spouses to run off with the new guys.

I don't really think it's practical going for a virgin wife if you're living in a developed society with a giant social safety net for women encouraging them to do what their heart feels, rather than clinging to a man for survival. Saudi Arabia's problem (from a "keeping virgin wives" perspective) was that it modernized too fast. As soon as they stopped stoning women for adultery, the camel was out of the barn!

If you live in a very poor country where women without a husband starve, you can do the virgin wife. From my conversations with lower class men in destitute third world countries I've visited, many of these guys have virgin wives. (the funny thing is when you ask them if they popped their wife's hymen... and they get that sly look and start nodding and laughing... lol) Interestingly the upper class men in these societies tend to marry women who have traveled around a bit and they were not their wives' first.

Chase

 

[Dough]

As for her trading her pussy for your provisioning, that puts you square in the provider role. Chase had a thread about that a few days ago. You're basically begging to get cuckolded at that point cause if she sees you as the provider, her genes will scream for a lover every month come ovulation time.

I find this interesting because I got a totally different conclusion from that post. I didn't conclude that men who provision automatically get cheated, but rather that men who are not able to satisfy their women sexually get cheated. It just so coincidentally happens that men try to use provisioning as a crutch to avoid needing to learn how to be sexy. As Chase says in the post himself, "these traits may appear to be opposed but they are not mutually exclusive", and "the best seducers have some provider value backing up their focus on lover value".

Also the point of "pussy for provision" - that's not really how I'm thinking. I'm thinking of "chastity for provision". As in, if she can't keep her legs shut and back up her side of the social contract by exercising self-restraint then she can go be with someone else, because there are other women out there who are staying chaste and who are able to control themselves that deserve me in their life more than she does.

I'll be the first to admit that this may be because of inexperience, but I don't buy the premise that every woman in the world is a cock hopping animal incapable of controlling their own emotions and behavior. Are the vast majority of them? Yeah, for sure. The same is true for men. Not going to argue with that. But I don't believe that the virtues of temperance are unique to men. Maybe that's what it comes down to at the end of the day and the whole chastity thing is missing the forest for the trees: I highly value temperance and consider its virtues to be fundamental aspects of who I am as a person, and want a woman who sees herself in the same way.

Something that Chase has certainly written about somewhere, is the idea that to achieve an abundance mentality you need to genuinely believe that your presence in the life of a woman is one of the greatest possible gifts to her. Maybe I applied it in a way that wasn't intended, but I believe in that wholeheartedly. And that is a gift that I only want to give to one person who is truly worthy of it - there is only one of me, after all. So I find it fascinating that there's a lot of talk here about men wanting a chaste woman out of fear, but my motivations are out of arrogance.

So maybe that's why it feels like I'm talking past you guys and you're talking past me, in a way. It seems to be the case that I'm not even thinking about the same women as you. I'm thinking of the ones who are intentionally exercising self-control because doing so is an important part of their identity.

I want to reward one of those women with myself so she doesn't have to settle for an unattractive provider, or get her diligence wasted by a player.
(I'm sure you've seen guides floating around the internet on using frame control to basically rape women that are protecting their chastity, which is especially insidious because they don't have the experience to know how to defend themselves against it)
And for her to reward me with all the things that she's worked to cultivate in herself in turn.

 

[Teevster]

(I'm sure you've seen guides floating around the internet on using frame control to basically rape women that are protecting their chastity

How the heck is frame control linked to rape?

I have used frame control to make women cheat on their lame boyfriend and husband, to help them liberate themselvles from social conditioning. I have also assisted one in breaking her virginity (she was 22 and wanted nothing else than to break it but was nervous which was deal with with frame control). It is not rape. Far from it.

However your idea that women should be chaste is however purely misogynist. It objectifies them as objects belonging to you and only you for your satisfaction, ignoring and debying women of their own sexual subjectivity.

Their purpose in life extends beyond sacrificing their sex life to satisfy you and only you.

-Teevster

 

[Chase]

@Dough,

There's a deep misunderstanding of women here, due to lack of experience with women.

One question to ask yourself is, "Who is this woman with such tremendous self-restraint, and what is the burning motivation she has within her driving her to constantly reject men she finds attractive in pursuit of the objective of keeping herself chaste for many years for an unknown man she has never yet met?" Try to envision this woman, and what her daily life is like, and exactly why she holds so incredibly tightly to this self-denial for years on years on years into her middle 20s.

i.e., charming, attractive Guy A wants to go out with her, but she says, "No! I am saving myself for Dough, who I do not know yet, but someday will. He is out there, and I know it." Then charming, attractive Guy B wants to go out with her, but again she says the same thing. Then Guy C, then Guy D... finally though, one day, years later, she meets Dough, in a chance encounter, and says to herself, "Yes. THIS is the man I have been waiting for. He is the one I have preserved my chastity for, and he is the one I shall give it to." What are these mythic qualities you possess that allows her to recognize in you the thing she was seeking that no other man possessed?

There is also this:

I want to reward one of those women with myself so she doesn't have to settle for an unattractive provider, or get her diligence wasted by a player.

You need to think what you need to think to bolster your own confidence, but... this kind of thinking is simply going to make you adversarial to a place like this.

If you are trying to learn from men you consider to be adversaries, who are "wasting" and "squandering" the precious virgins you desire, there's really not going to be a healthy dynamic, you interacting with such men.

Roosh's forum, after purging men interested in fornication, would almost certainly be a much better fit -- you'll find aligned values, objects, perspectives, etc.:

Courtship and relationships

Discussion of ideas related to meeting women and courtship (dating) for the intention of marriage.

www.rooshvforum.com

(I'm sure you've seen guides floating around the internet on using frame control to basically rape women that are protecting their chastity, which is especially insidious because they don't have the experience to know how to defend themselves against it)

This kind of thinking ("seduction = rape") is so far afield as to be bizarre.

It also sounds a lot like, "If I have sex with a virgin, it is okay because she actually wants me. If a playboy has sex with a virgin, it is wrong, because he tricked her."

There's just a complete lack of understanding of what is actually going on inside women's heads when they decide to go to bed with a man here.

See this article:

Is Seduction Wrong?

Just received a comment from an anonymous poster in response to a recent blog entry entitled "Baiting vs. Trading Information." I'll repost his/her comment in its entirety here: "Women will be interested in you when you stop treating them as though they are subhuman, or aliens you must develop...

www.girlschase.com

Chase

 

[DarkKnight]

A lot of worrying about how things "should" be instead of how things are really are... It's hard to get guys like this to snap out of their fantasy they cling unto because they are so invested in that paradigm already.

 

[Dough]

This kind of thinking ("seduction = rape") is so far afield as to be bizarre.

I don't think that seduction is rape. But when I see someone make a post somewhere that goes something like "I want to fuck this virgin because I enjoy the challenge, but she's not putting out after 4 dates because she's waiting for marriage and she's suspicious that I'm a player, how do I fuck her anyway?" and then you get responses telling him to say shit to the effect of "I want to marry you but we need to have sex first so we can find out if we're compatible", etc, and they frame this as just "overcoming female state control" as if the girl has absolutely no agency whatsoever and she's not getting blatantly lied to, I don't know how else to interpret that.

You told me to imagine what kind of woman that I'm looking for and what her motivations may be - neither of us need to imagine, we can see for ourselves. Check out https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/. They write about men like me, and how to attract men like me, and they write about being the exact kind of woman that I want. I'm pretty sure this isn't an entire community of men cosplaying as women on the internet with anonymous accounts.

 

[Gunwitch]

I don't think that seduction is rape. But when I see someone make a post somewhere that goes something like "I want to fuck this virgin because I enjoy the challenge, but she's not putting out after 4 dates because she's waiting for marriage and she's suspicious that I'm a player, how do I fuck her anyway?" and then you get responses telling him to say shit to the effect of "I want to marry you but we need to have sex first so we can find out if we're compatible", etc, and they frame this as just "overcoming female state control" as if the girl has absolutely no agency whatsoever and she's not getting blatantly lied to,

This is called lying to get in a womans pants. Maybe California or something, but most places don't call that rape.

I don't know how else to interpret that.

-----------------------------
(1) A person who has sexual intercourse with another person commits the crime of rape in the first degree if:

(a)​

The victim is subjected to forcible (mental or verbal influence is not force, threat of physical violence would be) compulsion by the person;

(b)​

The victim is under 12 years of age;

(c)​

The victim is under 16 years of age and is the person’s sibling, of the whole or half blood, the person’s child or the person’s spouse’s child; or

(d)​

The victim is incapable of consent by reason of mental defect, mental incapacitation or physical helplessness.
-----------------------------

Watch out throwing that word around, there are solid legal definitions out there, is how you can "interpret that". Can call it slimey or bad morals or whatever, but don't come in calling a whole forum full of people rapists.

Maybe Chase was right if you think lying to a woman to get sex is rape, maybe this place isn't a good fit.


Gun

 

[HoofHearted]

I want to note that none of the compelling content i've found around here has advocated even so much as lying

If anything, and i one thing i like best, is the undertone of actually helping women through an emotional process they want to take with you.

Btw this thread fuckin sucks balls

 

[Gunwitch]

I want to note that none of the compelling content i've found around here has advocated even so much as lying

That's not the point though it's throwing around the term rape like nothing.

Sure many pickups go without a lie, just of course omitting some truths to not seem like a social retard of course or you'd tell every hot chick "I wanna see what your pussy smells like" as an opener. No brainer shit some guys do violate but that another story.

Outright lying though is a tool in your box, even equating it with rape is over the top.


Gun