Women seeing themselves as the sexual prize

[DArtagnan]

Hi all,

In a recent post, @KJ Francis mentioned "That's great that your partner enjoys being told to fuck you harder. Personally I can tell you that when women have said this sort of thing to me, it is an active turnoff, same like being told to cum "for her".

This was eye-opening for me and hits home regarding my ex.

She had this attitude where she was somehow the sexual prize, a bit egotistical, a bit narcissistic even. The thing is that she also conforted me a lot sexually, and demonstrated sexual satisfaction. Because she showed both sides, it didn't look like a big problem at the time, but now I'm realizing that it did annoy me a bit, maybe more than I was conscious of.

She said things such as "cum for me", "come lick my vagina", "do you think she's beatiful" (her vagina). All of this even though I showed to her that I liked licking her vagina, non-verbally. At least I think I did.

The worst for me was when she brought her "ovulation period" in a very explicit manner, saying things such as "I'm ovulating right now, God I'm so fertile right now, God I'm such a hot woman right now, look at how my panties are covered in my ovulation liquids". These were very turn off for me.

I usually tried to handle all of this by simply ignoring it, and trying to give her a sexy time, yes, but not directly after one of these comments or requests, that is not following her lead. It didn't always work fine.

Do you also think that this was her framing her as the sexual prize, even trying to display some soft dominance towards me?

How do you guys handle this?

 

[empath]

Hi all,

In a recent post, @KJ Francis mentioned "That's great that your partner enjoys being told to fuck you harder. Personally I can tell you that when women have said this sort of thing to me, it is an active turnoff, same like being told to cum "for her".

This was eye-opening for me and hits home regarding my ex.

She had this attitude where she was somehow the sexual prize, a bit egotistical, a bit narcissistic even. The thing is that she also conforted me a lot sexually, and demonstrated sexual satisfaction. Because she showed both sides, it didn't look like a big problem at the time, but now I'm realizing that it did annoy me a bit, maybe more than I was conscious of.

She said things such as "cum for me", "come lick my vagina", "do you think she's beatiful" (her vagina). All of this even though I showed to her that I liked licking her vagina, non-verbally. At least I think I did.

The worst for me was when she brought her "ovulation period" in a very explicit manner, saying things such as "I'm ovulating right now, God I'm so fertile right now, God I'm such a hot woman right now, look at how my panties are covered in my ovulation liquids". These were very turn off for me.

I usually tried to handle all of this by simply ignoring it, and trying to give her a sexy time, yes, but not directly after one of these comments or requests, that is not following her lead. It didn't always work fine.

Do you also think that this was her framing her as the sexual prize, even trying to display some soft dominance towards me?

How do you guys handle this?

When a girl said to me I am hot like this

I smirked.

Raised my brows.

Gave a her a hard fucking.

While my hand at her mouth.

Until she was exhausted.

Shuts them for good.

She did not dare to say that again.

 

[Teevster]

Women are by default the prize - whether sexual or social. The role o the game (frame control) is to reframe the interaction and to make you the prize.

That's the swinggcat "theorem" basically. Mystery also had similar observation - in most cases women are higher value than men, and that's why you come in and DHV right? To change the dynamic.

-Teevster

 

[KJ Francis]

In my case I think it was more rooted in her self consciousness and feeling attractive. She was on the inexperienced side and I don't think she was as tuned into the dynamics of who's in charge or aware that she was setting that kind of frame verbally. I think it was more like "are you going to cum" BECAUSE of me / in response to me (not "for me") but that was just a more natural verbal phrasing.

In another case though the whole "fuck me harder" thing was preceded by "make me your bitch" right after I wall slammed her. That and some other examples seem to be more dominant and experienced women but they are wanting you to step it up a bit, not actually play into the frame of her directing. In these cases I think you need to find ways to take charge, like physically move her into different positions, and give verbal directions, like bend over things, get on her knees, etc. If she phrases a command like "put it in me", make her say please, etc.

I don't think I've ever been with someone who actively liked to be in charge.

 

[DArtagnan]

Thanks, I get it and there are some good tips here!

 

[Stark]

Women are by default the prize - whether sexual or social. The role o the game (frame control) is to reframe the interaction and to make you the prize.

That's the swinggcat "theorem" basically. Mystery also had similar observation - in most cases women are higher value than men, then that's why you come in and DHV right? To change the dynamic.

-Teevster

Often times you find the greatest piece of wisdom in a few sentences.

This a mandatory bookmark.

 

[POB]

In a recent post, @KJ Francis mentioned "That's great that your partner enjoys being told to fuck you harder. Personally I can tell you that when women have said this sort of thing to me, it is an active turnoff, same like being told to cum "for her".

My question: why do you care?

She can say whatever she likes about herself...as long as she's gagging with my cock in her mouth and screaming beaneath me while I pump the shit out of her, she knows what's up.

She said things such as "cum for me", "come lick my vagina", "do you think she's beatiful" (her vagina). All of this even though I showed to her that I liked licking her vagina, non-verbally. At least I think I did.

All this means she is really aroused by your presence...how is that a bad thing?

A lot of things you can do to keep that dynamic goin - all the while shifting the focus away from her, and putting it back into the interaction itself.
"come lick my vagina": turn her around and lick her ass instead
"do you think she's beatiful" (her vagina): "I think she is delicious"

When you are dominating her, go to her ear and whisper:
"now you'll do as you are told"...if she tries to say something back, you cover her mouth and keep fucking her harder
"who's my naughty princess that's being fucked right now?" and stuff like that, to bring together the whore and the princess she has inside her.

And in the middle of it all, you take short breaks and say stuff like "you look so beautiful when you are horny"
Women are pleasers and vanity creatures by nature...if she associates being horny with being beautiful (which is something that's probably been forbidden for her, cause for society to be a pretty woman you can't be sexually open) she will allow herself do it everytime she is with you.

You can also roleplay and put yourself as her sexual toy...it workers wonders for me.
When she decides to get on top: "so now you gonna use me? Come and fuck your whore then"
"Are you playing with your toy now? you don't even mind I'm here...you just want my cock don't you?" when she starts to play with it.

 

[KJ Francis]

That's the swinggcat "theorem" basically. Mystery also had similar observation - in most cases women are higher value than men, then that's why you come in and DHV right? To change the dynamic.

Often times you find the greatest piece of wisdom in a few sentences.

Great point! I posed a question to Mystery in his forum and mentioned Swinggcat's idea of prizing frames when referencing Teevster's sex talk gambits.

@DArtagnan if you want to read up on the girl's perception of relative social status in early game, page 157 of the Venusian Arts Handbook has a series of simple bar graphs to show the movement of your and her social status. I also like this diagram:

My question: why do you care?

She can say whatever she likes about herself...as long as she's gagging with my cock in her mouth and screaming beaneath me while I pump the shit out of her, she knows what's up.

also a good point! lots of great tips in your post I will remember. for me personally in the bedroom stage, I think it is ingrained deep in my psychology... if she says "fuck me harder" and I response directly to her compliance demand, it feels wrong without flipping the dynamic in some way. I think part of it is also learned behavior from the habit of reading the GC blog so much over the years. I am always thinking about frames and little subtle things.

Like one Chase tip is the balance of the words "I", "you", and "we". If her words are heavy on "I' statements, something is off. If the balance is tipped toward "you" in a text, it's a clue there is high interest and a possible escalation window even if the content of the words does not indicate that. So I think I might have made myself hypersensitive by building the habit of cluing into grammatical subtleties.

 

[OldGuy]

"Fuck me harder" means "You fuck me harder" with you the subject, so there is balance.

 

[POB]

also a good point! lots of great tips in your post I will remember.

No problem

for me personally in the bedroom stage, I think it is ingrained deep in my psychology... if she says "fuck me harder" and I response directly to her compliance demand, it feels wrong without flipping the dynamic in some way.

No no no...it means she is super horny and wants more!
Now you can give her more OR you can improve it by bringing her mind back to the moment
That's where you insert good dirty talk, roleplaying, teasing, etc

I think part of it is also learned behavior from the habit of reading the GC blog so much over the years. I am always thinking about frames and little subtle things.

Frames are used before bed....in bed it's just go time - with little verbal sprinkles here and there to spice things up

Like one Chase tip is the balance of the words "I", "you", and "we". If her words are heavy on "I' statements, something is off. If the balance is tipped toward "you" in a text, it's a clue there is high interest and a possible escalation window even if the content of the words does not indicate that.

For seduction.
For sex she can focus on whatever, as long as she is getting pleasure from you and acknowledging it from time to time.

So I think I might have made myself hypersensitive by building the habit of cluing into grammatical subtleties.

Snap out of it asap, it's doing you no favors.

 

[Will_V]

Women sometimes act bossy during sex to see what it'll do to you, especially when they're riding on top .. sometimes she'll grab a handful of your hair, try to give you commands, look at you intensely and start pounding down like she's fucking you and not the other way around lol.

The main thing is not to take it seriously, that means don't react or try and 'deal with it', nor go along with it (if you don't feel like it). I just chuckle and keep doing whatever I'm doing, and then at some point I'll flip her over and do whatever I want with her.

It's all part of the wonderful and curious dimensions of female nature.

PS women also tend to end up experiencing themselves as the submissive subject of their fantasies sooner or later, regardless of what role they start in .. so when she starts getting aggressive/dominant she'll usually end up being even more submissive than usual afterward, if you hold your frame.

 

[Skills]

Hi all,

In a recent post, @KJ Francis mentioned "That's great that your partner enjoys being told to fuck you harder. Personally I can tell you that when women have said this sort of thing to me, it is an active turnoff, same like being told to cum "for her".

This was eye-opening for me and hits home regarding my ex.

She had this attitude where she was somehow the sexual prize, a bit egotistical, a bit narcissistic even. The thing is that she also conforted me a lot sexually, and demonstrated sexual satisfaction. Because she showed both sides, it didn't look like a big problem at the time, but now I'm realizing that it did annoy me a bit, maybe more than I was conscious of.

She said things such as "cum for me", "come lick my vagina", "do you think she's beatiful" (her vagina). All of this even though I showed to her that I liked licking her vagina, non-verbally. At least I think I did.

The worst for me was when she brought her "ovulation period" in a very explicit manner, saying things such as "I'm ovulating right now, God I'm so fertile right now, God I'm such a hot woman right now, look at how my panties are covered in my ovulation liquids". These were very turn off for me.

I usually tried to handle all of this by simply ignoring it, and trying to give her a sexy time, yes, but not directly after one of these comments or requests, that is not following her lead. It didn't always work fine.

Do you also think that this was her framing her as the sexual prize, even trying to display some soft dominance towards me?

How do you guys handle this?

Women are buyers and men are sellers.. don't worry about being the prize (swing cat), it is a misunderstood seduction concept...and for the new environment is not even optional, new gen... anyways a woman telling what she likes and wants you to do sexually is a plus not a negative and should be encouraged.... don't worry about what other guy in the Internet sexual turned off is, worry about your own dick..

 

[KJ Francis]

No no no...it means she is super horny and wants more!

Snap out of it asap, it's doing you no favors.

Thanks yeah - I think I'm an overthinking mental masturbator!! Gotta break the habit and just enjoy sometimes.

The main thing is not to take it seriously, that means don't react or try and 'deal with it', nor go along with it

This is a good point... even if you flip the dynamic, you still risk being reactive and she is still pushing your buttons

a woman telling what she likes and wants you to do sexually is a plus not a negative and should be encouraged

this is very true... also if you guys know that girl Aella that has been mentioned on the forum.... she did a big survey with her readership (more kinky sex positive women) and I know what girls say is not always what they respond to in reality... but one of the things girls say they like in bed that guys don't do enough of is having the conversation about preferences before sex... and also recapping about what was good and bad after sex. this one really stood out in her data with a high score.

I do think good leadership involves being open to suggestions and such... I just mean if a girl is like "pull my hair", then you do it, then "slap my ass", then you do it, then "choke me", then you do it... it feels like she is firmly the one in the lead and makes my dick soft

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[empath]

Women are by default the prize - whether sexual or social. The role o the game (frame control) is to reframe the interaction and to make you the prize.

That's the swinggcat "theorem" basically. Mystery also had similar observation - in most cases women are higher value than men, and that's why you come in and DHV right? To change the dynamic.

-Teevster

Well, can't this frame be completely ignored in favor of the frame where you are screening her?

I mean, if the interaction is framed as *you* screening *her* for compatibility—whether sexual or romantic—then you hold the authority.

I guess most naturals think this way, right?

Now, neither you nor she is *the* prize, right?

Most of the rejection wouldn’t even feel like rejection because she simply didn’t pass your screening.

Of course, one would need to be tactful about screening—(not a neo-direct approach)

I guess girls also think this way: *Are we compatible? Are we vibing?*

She is screening the guy too, right?

If not adopting the above frame, then isn’t the idea of *who is the prize* relative to the man and woman in the interaction?

Sometimes, a man can be the prize when his SMV is higher, and similarly, both can be equal too.

 

[KJ Francis]

I mean, if the interaction is framed as *you* screening *her* for compatibility—whether sexual or romantic—then you hold the authority.

This is KJ, but I think she still needs at least a little shift in her perception of the value differential before being open to being screened, even if it's a short display of fundamentals.

If you were a top tier chef very aware of your own value (like the club queen) and someone random started asking where you trained, what you are best at making etc., you may appreciate it more than being fawned over, but perhaps still with no desire to prove yourself to this stranger if you're secure about your abilities.

But if you knew this person was opening up a new brunch restaurant and you were sick of working late nights, you may be more open to selling yourself, because you are aware of their potential value offering that is attainable to you.

 

[Spyce D]

Do Not Compare Yourself to Women

"Women have it easier." Well sure, in many ways they do. But YOU are not in competition with women. There is a thing I have seen online (not so much in real life, but perhaps I'm not socializing with the right guys for it in real life) where guys complain about how easy women have it or how much...

www.girlschase.com

May or May not apply in this context

 

[gameboy]

and also recapping about what was good and bad after sex.

Interesting! Do people do that? It never occurred to me, but I think it makes sense.

I think it will definitely make you stand out if the sex also was good, as probably no other guy ever did a recap with her to find out what she liked or didn't like.

 

[Teevster]

Well, can't this frame be completely ignored in favor of the frame where you are screening her?

Of course, you can screen for receptive women. By doing so, approaching them will give you a better default frame.

This approach is somewhat passive—it requires skill, takes time to learn, and can be draining and time-consuming.

Occasionally, a woman will actively chase you, and you'll be in full control. Congrats, enjoy it. These women are rare, and it usually happens if: (1) you look good, and (2) more importantly, you have some status. Even then, you still need to engage and escalate. However, simply being attractive and having high status (the latter being more important) won’t automatically lead to endless results - in fact, you will leave things to chance (ref "getting lucky" - a terrible strategy). But hey, enjoy the freebies when they come! And of course, look-max and gain social status - BY ALL MEANS.

Most of the time, if you go with a screening strategy, you'll have a slight edge if she bites—she’ll be receptive from the get-go, but she won’t be fully chasing you. Here, you’ll need some frame-setting techniques to establish and reinforce the idea that you are the prize. This is a solid strategy. But not a walk in the park, you still need frame control.

In fact, in many cases, you might start with her chasing you and having the frame set in your favor (through good screening or lucky), only for her to suddenly flip the script and reframe the situation (how? She can just chat up five other guys—have fun!).

Now, neither you nor she is *the* prize, right?

Most of the rejection wouldn’t even feel like rejection because she simply didn’t pass your screening.

Of course, one would need to be tactful about screening—(not a neo-direct approach)

I guess girls also think this way: *Are we compatible? Are we vibing?*

She is screening the guy too, right?

So yes, you can screen, but relying too heavily on screening alone will:

1. Severely limit your opportunities.
2. Still require frame control.
3. Still require game to properly lead the process.
4. Be a tough skill to master—screening demands strong perception and awareness, which most beginners and intermediates lack.

Sorry, buddy—no shortcuts.

Most of the rejection wouldn’t even feel like rejection because she simply didn’t pass your screening.

Is this an actual outer frame, or just a rationalization?

The good news is that learning frame control is actually interesting and fun—it’s not a negative thing, man!

Even the top screeners (and I had my phase of being deep into it—heck, I even hung out with the clique that introduced it to the community) understand frame control. Mastering frames, setting frames, and controlling frames is key to mastering seduction.

Really, it’s that simple… in theory. Now get back to work buddy and make it into reality - your reality!

Did this help clarify a few things?

-Teevster

 

[Skills]

Well, can't this frame be completely ignored in favor of the frame where you are screening her?

empath i think you are confusing screening with qualification and mixing concepts...

I mean, if the interaction is framed as *you* screening *her* for compatibility—whether sexual or romantic—then you hold the authority.

Again i think you are confusing qualifying with screening... Screening is going for women that are willing to have sex with you in a short amount of time, you still are doing game normally, but after 20-45 of proper gaming, if the lay is not there you move to another target while getting her contact info. i think you are confused... Qualification is like "beauty is common and there a lot beautiful women here, but what are your 2 best qualities that have nothing to do with your appearance" and stuff like that...

I guess most naturals think this way, right?

no. natural do screen but puas use qualification which is what you are confusing concepts...

Now, neither you nor she is *the* prize, right?

again in any interactions women are less invested and the buyers at the start, men are the sellers (more invested).... Yes there are ways to flip the dynamics by getting women to invest in the interaction (many of the stuff we teach), but the highest investment is sex... But women know they are the buyers.... The way we behave in the interaction is no needy/chasey/creepy, not try hard etc... (this can sub communicate that you nor she is the prize) But we still have to do a lot of the work to get the sex to happen

Most of the rejection wouldn’t even feel like rejection because she simply didn’t pass your screening.

again i think you are confusing screening with qualification, and the is no "rejection did not feel like a rejection" most of us don't really get blown out we get subtle hints or not investment... I don't get this point, i don't think you understand screening.... Take a look at this post please

Of course, one would need to be tactful about screening—(not a neo-direct approach)

I guess girls also think this way: *Are we compatible? Are we vibing?*

She is screening the guy too, right?

If not adopting the above frame, then isn’t the idea of *who is the prize* relative to the man and woman in the interaction?

Sometimes, a man can be the prize when his SMV is higher, and similarly, both can be equal too.

again i just think you are confusing screening with qualification...

"In pickup context, "qualification" refers to a technique where you subtly guide a person to reveal information about themselves to demonstrate their value and worthiness of your attention, essentially making them "qualify" for your time and interaction.

Here's a breakdown of what "qualification" means in this context:

• Proving Worthiness:
  The core idea is that when someone is attracted to or perceives someone else as "high value," they often feel compelled to prove themselves worthy of that person's attention.
• Taking Control:
  By making someone "qualify" themselves, you shift the power dynamic and gain control of the interaction.
• Encouraging Self-Disclosure:
  Qualification involves subtly prompting the other person to talk about their interests, accomplishments, and experiences, essentially getting them to "sell" themselves to you.
• Examples:
  • Instead of directly asking "What do you do?", you might say "That's a cool [item/activity], tell me more about it".
  • If they mention a hobby, you could ask "Have you ever won any awards in that?" or "What's your favorite part about it?"
  • The goal is to get them to elaborate and share information, allowing you to gauge their personality and interests.
• Why it works:
  • Increased Value: By making someone work to earn your attention, you project an image of being busy and desirable, which can be attractive.
  • Better Understanding: Qualification helps you learn more about the other person and determine if they are a good fit for you.
  • Increased Control: You can then use the information you gather to guide the interaction and lead it in a direction that is mutually beneficial."

 

[Teevster]

empath i think you are confusing screening with qualification and mixing concepts...

Yes.... could be. Also Fyi @empath qualification is a form of frame control.

It is like @Skills says - a way to force a frame, or reinforce it by making her invest - or qualify to you. The classic (Mystery Method) way is to qualify after setting X amounts of frames and building compliance ("attraction"), but more ballsy styles includes forcing qualification early on... as a form of screening - @Razorjack style.

no. natural do screen but puas use qualification which is what you are confusing concepts...

Well @Skills... PUAs can also screen, but yeah easier said than done. And it is beyond what @empath refers to. Anyway...

again i think you are confusing screening with qualification, and the is no "rejection did not feel like a rejection" most of us don't really get blown out we get subtle hints or not investment... I don't get this point, i don't think you understand screening.... Take a look at this post please

What he says. Listen to @Skills.

Here's a breakdown of what "qualification" means in this context:

• Proving Worthiness:
  The core idea is that when someone is attracted to or perceives someone else as "high value," they often feel compelled to prove themselves worthy of that person's attention.
• Taking Control:
  By making someone "qualify" themselves, you shift the power dynamic and gain control of the interaction.
• Encouraging Self-Disclosure:
  Qualification involves subtly prompting the other person to talk about their interests, accomplishments, and experiences, essentially getting them to "sell" themselves to you.
• Examples:
  • Instead of directly asking "What do you do?", you might say "That's a cool [item/activity], tell me more about it".
  • If they mention a hobby, you could ask "Have you ever won any awards in that?" or "What's your favorite part about it?"
  • The goal is to get them to elaborate and share information, allowing you to gauge their personality and interests.
• Why it works:
  • Increased Value: By making someone work to earn your attention, you project an image of being busy and desirable, which can be attractive.
  • Better Understanding: Qualification helps you learn more about the other person and determine if they are a good fit for you.
  • Increased Control: You can then use the information you gather to guide the interaction and lead it in a direction that is mutually beneficial."

SkillsGPT.



But not wrong...

-Teevster