ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

[ElderPrice]

Iʼm thinking you have a limiting belief, in which you equate dominance with popularity, attention, and/or physical toughness — which is a bad conceptualization for someone who is not naturally extroverted.

Maybe POTUS wasnʼt the best example, but another might be a mafia boss. Well, he does get attention too, but Iʼm more interested in his behaviour, not his popularity or the attention heʼs getting. Think about how he acts. He can just speak one word and youʼre dead. Do you think he raises his voice and acts rowdy? He doesnʼt need to. The loud drunk is the way he is because he has nothing else. In a way, heʼs insecure; not like the mafia boss at all.

Dominance means you get your way.

A practical example of dominance would be when Seppuku gets up on a date and simply tells the girl theyʼre going to go listen to some music. Here he is not even asking her, he is simply directing her to do as he pleases. She is, of course, free to refuse, but his behaviour simply assumes that she wonʼt, because he is so used to getting his way with women. That is dominance.

Phoenix

Thank you again for your thoughts! Regarding day game, yes, I'm continuing to look for better venues. There's a big mall in the middle of town I haven't gamed at yet. It's next on the list. Perhaps next weekend.

Regarding the conversation on dominance, I know what you mean. You can be cool, collected, and dominant. I'm just not understanding how that applies to a social situation. Like, what am I supposed to do based on that concept? The mafia boss ALSO has a lot of social proof. He has a whole entourage with him. He has people to give the "kill that guy" command to. What would an aspiring seducer of women who goes out alone do with this? If I chill by myself, it doesn't matter how cool or chill I look... nobody approaches or gives approach invitations. I'm actually sort of convinced I have a natural vibe that for some reason repels people rather than attracts them. Meanwhile, the guys that command attention are loud and are seeking the spotlight, rather than playing it cool. And if the idea is YOU have to do the approaching and NOT sit and chill to the side and do nothing, the louder/tougher guy is going to command attention. And if you're not loud/tough, you're not. At least this is where I'm not understand how your point relates to what me or someone in my position is supposed to do. Does that make sense?

Thanks again!

 

[ElderPrice]

4/5/19 Possible Epiphany.

In my efforts to try and figure out what's messed up with my vibe, I've of course been reading articles and watching videos on the subject. In a couple RSD videos, they touch on a subject that I hadn't consciously noticed, but makes sense when I think about it. I'm sure a similar idea is mentioned here on GC. That idea is the one of giving vs. taking. The RSD videos speak of it as coping vs thriving.

The gist of it is, generally speaking, when you're not doing well, it's because you're taking. In a social context that would mean showing up to a social event and working to only consciously fulfill your needs or desires. Not necessarily in a rude or offensive way. In a way like, you go to a party to meet your friend's friends, as opposed to you bringing your own friends for your friend to meet.

When you are doing well, it's because you're giving. You socialize with the conscious goal to 'give' some sort of value to others. Something like making introductions, showing someone a good time, or just doing whatever to increase the energy of the event.

I hadn't really thought of all this in this paradigm before. When doing so, it seems to make sense. When I'm going out to meet new people or to meet girls, it's because I'm trying to add to my life. When I go out and get bored, it's because nothing is particularly happening to fulfill my desires (to meet people or meet girls). I don't think I can recall the last time I did something socially with the goal to help someone ELSE.

With this new understanding, I'm excited to try going to a venue and trying to GIVE to everyone there rather than take. The only holdup is I'm having a hard time understanding how to do this socially! How exactly do you add to the energy? How do you make someone else's night? How do you approach new people with the goal of making new friends or with picking up girls... while trying to GIVE them something to add value to THEIR lives? Like, specifically, what would one do? Especially as a quiet introvert that doesn't drink? Interesting stuff to think about!

 

[ThePhoenix]

The mafia boss ALSO has a lot of social proof. He has a whole entourage with him. He has people to give the “kill that guy” command to.

The key here is inference. Although itʼs not quite as powerful as actually seeing it in action, women do make inferences based on your own behaviour. For instance, last year I hit on a girl in day game who I didnʼt even recall I had hit on before, and my memory lapse created a very powerful inference in her that I must get lots of girls. Suddenly she got a lot more friendly! (More detail is here.) She doesnʼt need to actually see the thugs at your command in order to unconsciously expect them to exist. If your own behaviour is totally congruent with the fact that you get your way, sheʼll tend to think you do.

And if the idea is YOU have to do the approaching and NOT sit and chill to the side and do nothing, the louder/tougher guy is going to command attention.

This is again where day game (or even on‑line) is an advantage, because in those venues, there generally are no loud, tough guys you have to compete with. The brain is very temporally local in emotional assessments. (I know this the hard way based on how hard it is to drive myself to approach the only black girl in a store even though I know thereʼs many tens of thousands of them in the city.) So, if there are none of those loud guys around at the moment, you can get her attention easily. With that said, you will probably need to just make an approach blindly, since nobody is on her radar and girls donʼt usually approach, anyway.

Also, this ties into the “Law of Least Effort”. (See this and this.) If you make it seem like you went to almost no effort to approach the girl, you retain the cool, collected mafia boss vibe even though you had to do the approach. Thatʼs why I like approaching in stores, because I can just act like Iʼm browsing around, then when I work my way to the girl or she happens to come close, I just grab something off the shelf and tap her with it or do whatever Iʼm going to do, and it seems to her like I literally just happened to be standing there and then noticed her. Actually, your stopping girls that happened to come near the spot you were standing in, was a good tactic from that perspective.

... That idea is the one of giving vs. taking. The RSD videos speak of it as coping vs thriving.

... When Iʼm going out to meet new people or to meet girls, itʼs because Iʼm trying to add to my life. ...

... How do you approach new people with the goal of making new friends or with picking up girls... while trying to GIVE them something to add value to THEIR lives?

Itʼs a good observation, but it also reveals that on some level you have a belief that seducing a woman is taking from her. Consciously, I know better, but Iʼm still working to fix this unconsciously, too. Somehow I still think that way even though Iʼve seen on several isolated occasions how much a woman can want my dick. With more successes I will fix this. The reality is that women love being swept off their feet and they love being taken sexually by men who know how to do it. So really, youʼre giving every bit as much as youʼre taking. You just need to weaken the vicious cycle of unconsciously believing (because society has brainwashed us to believe) that your advances are unwanted, which becomes a self‑fulfilling prophecy.

Phoenix

 

[ElderPrice]

Thank you again Phoenix! Agreed on all your points.

 

[ElderPrice]

4/7/19 So far so good with this new paradigm. It helped me go outside my comfort zone and do some LEGIT cold approaching.

The last two nights were, socially speaking, great nights. I had a lot of fun and despite nothing happening on the girl front, unlike other nights afterward I was not depressed. I felt like I had a good time. I credit this to the new paradigm I stumbled on this week - the idea of taking vs. giving.

On both of these nights, I gave myself only one thing or cue to focus on: make everything I do about GIVING others a great night. Dance with others so they can have a great dance that night... converse with others so they can partake in a fun conversation that night... etc etc.

I didn't just want to limit the testing of this paradigm to the same old same old partner dancing I always do. I'm not a terrible dancer so I figure the odds are good I always generally GIVE girls a good dance and add value to their nights. So testing this paradigm with partner dancing wasn't going to work. I'd have to try something different.

Normally I'll hit up multiple venues on a weekend night just so I can keep partner dancing. For instance, one will offer dancing earlier in the night before switching to "club mode," while another might offer partner dancing all the way until closing time. I've always left the first one to go to the second later. This time I was motivated and energized to stick with the first venue, stick around until after it went into "club mode," abandon the dance floor entirely, and try some old fashioned, LEGIT cold approach.

Once club mode began, I left the dance floor and just started walking around, back and forth throughout the packed venue, drinking nothing but cold water. I was doing this alone. The few friends that turned out for partner dancing had left, and I didn't bump into anyone in the venue that I knew. I was as alone as it gets, and enjoyed every minute of it! As expected, it took a bit to push through the initial AA and get started, but once the first open is made, the rest start coming easy. I was warming up. I basically tried opening as many receptive or easy looking opportunities as I could spot.

I smiled at everyone I walked past, in case anyone smiled back and looked open to a conversation. I mostly tried direct compliments as ice breakers. I pointed at one guy as our paths crossed and said "That's a great beard!" He smiled, said thanks and kept walking. I said to another guy "That's a great jacket! Looking sharp!" He didn't hear me and kept walking. I walked past a group and said to a girl in the middle "Do I know you? Have we ever danced before?" A part of me legitimately thought this, though I was 95% sure I haven't met her before. She smiled and said no awkwardly. I smiled, shrugged my shoulders and walked away. This one was a side experiment to see if when I walked past her again going the other way she'd stop me and start an interaction (didn't happen). One girl I could have sworn made eye contact or checked me out from a distance. I eventually made my way over there and started a conversation. I smiled and said playfully "Hey did we make eye contact earlier? It was a girl in a blue dress. Was it you or someone else?" We had a short conversation. She was happy to converse, but wasn't hooked and quickly dropped the boyfriend line. I eventually wished her a great rest of her night and bounced. Another girl and I were walking past each other. I pointed, smiled, and said "THAT's an awesome dress!" She said thanks and kept walking. At one point I stopped for a second to look around and see if I recognized anyone. A guy standing next to me bumped into my shoe, apologized, and we started a pleasant conversation about the venue and our shoe choices that evening. We then moved on.

I did this for about a half hour then called it a night. No hooks, no bites. I also wanted to end on a positive note. I felt good after stepping outside my comfort zone and doing these opens. Maybe I did 10 or so total? If I tried another 20 and whiffed on them all, then I might have risked going home depressed. So I'll take my small victory now, and when I go out again to try this exercise again, I'll make sure to do more approaches. Looking forward to it!

 

[ElderPrice]

4/13/19 No progress with girls, but making progress with myself.

Last night I took a break from the usual partner dancing and tried something new: I hit the clubs. My motivation was simple. I've been feeling good lately after doing a better job of forcing myself to do some LEGIT cold approaching. Going to a dance night and asking girls to dance doesn't really count. I've also been feeling good about the new mental paradigm I recently came across: the idea of giving vs. taking. While going about life holding the giving mindset, I've just felt better. Better mood, and much less butthurt and depressive thoughts when things don't go well. So due to these factors I thought: Fuck this, let's go for some volume, do some legit cold approaching, and see what happens - not just see what happens in terms of results with girls, but how I feel afterward (assuming I bomb again).

The sign that I am for sure making personal progress is this: Until last night I hated clubs. They were my least favorite thing ever. I don't like that music in terms of taste, I don't like the loudness of the music, I don't like the alcohol component, and I don't like everyone's on-guard personalities. It's just never, ever been fun. But I'm happy to say that last night I checked out several clubs and I had a pretty good time. This is a big deal for me. I'm actually surprised to be typing it! I would have never thought that I'd ever have a good time at a club but it finally happened!

So what did actually happen? Actually, basically nothing haha. It was that mindset that did the trick for me. The mindset of solely trying to provide OTHERS with a good time rather than trying to 'take' a good time for myself. Of all the people I talked to, none of them looked like they regretted meeting me. Most smiled and appreciated the conversation. And with each open that didn't hook, I was able to keep my motivation and move on to the next one.

In terms of girls (since that's what this is ultimately about), I got nothing. I wasn't counting my approaches, but it had to have been around 20 give or take. They just didn't hook. Well, to be more specific, the ones that hooked were the unattractive ones, like the fat girls of the group. Any girl that was remotely attractive didn't come close to hooking. Oh well.

Before if I had a night like this where I bombed so hard and got absolutely nothing from any girl the least bit attractive, I would have been VERY depressed for the next 2-3 days. I do feel sliiiiiightly down but nowhere near like before. Nowhere near where I feel unable to make use of the rest of the weekend and have a good time. So from here I'll figure out what I want to do the rest of the weekend and keep at it. I'd like to incorporate day game and again try something tonight that isn't dancing. Though to be honest, dancing sounds like fun after bombing so hard

Hooray on the growth!

 

[Sub-Zero]

Good job man!!

 

[ElderPrice]

Thanks man!

4/14/19 Another club outing. Useful experience. My luck seems to be running on fumes haha.

I couldn't find a more appealing option, so I went to the same venue I usually go to on Saturdays. I got there early to do the partner dancing, but then I stuck around til late after it had turned into club mode. This is only the second time I've stuck around for club mode.

I did this last weekend. Again I stayed away from the club dance floor and just walked around by myself opening as many people (ideally girls) as I could find. Again I didn't count my total opens. Maybe 20-30? Guys included.

I got 3 hooks from girls, but like Friday night, luck just wasn't on my side. One of the hooks was a girl I was not attracted to at all, one was from out of town and leaving the next day, and one was engaged.

Two interesting things that happened last night:

First, for the first time I was able to create a group from scratch. I was standing by myself on a side of the establishment. I then opened three people standing next to me. Two women and a guy. I actually opened the very pretty milf first by commenting about her unique glasses. She never hooked and wasn't interested, but her group liked talking to me and the fact that I struck up a conversation with them. So now we're standing there as a group of 4. I then spot a couple that I opened maybe 20 minutes prior just standing around and people watching. I invite them to join the group and make introductions. Now we have a circle of 6 people. We kept talking for 5 or so minutes, but then the conversation died down and people started leaving the circle. Point of the story: I created a group from scratch and kept it alive for 5 minutes. That was pretty cool. Haha.

The other interesting thing that happened was this engaged girl. I was standing in this same area and noticed possibly the sexiest girl I'd seen all night just dancing to herself. She had been drinking but wasn't totally drunk. She was with a girl friend and a guy. I make some eye contact. I notice the guy is being a little more hands on with the other girl, so I figure this girl is single. Then they take a break from dancing club style. They look at their phones (looked like YouTube), then start attempting country two step, as if they just watched a tutorial. Perfect ice breaker. So I approach, asking if that's what they're trying, and I offer to help since I know how to do that. They were just messing around and the topic drops. The guy and girl go somewhere so I start talking to my target.

She quickly hooks and the fun interaction begins. Some flirting, some sexual conversation topics, playful conversation, talking closely, some initial touching... all there. Then comes the bad luck. She says she's visiting from North Dakota and is engaged. Wonderful. But the hook still holds and the conversation changes. She wants to help me meet a girl that night. She wants to be my wing. First, she offers some interesting analysis of, well, me. She says I'm a 6 but because I displayed enormous balls to approach her cold, that bumped me to an 8. She roasted my clothes, mainly my shirt. This was disappointing because I was wearing all new clothes that I recently bought to try and step up my usual attire hahaha. But she was right about the shirt. The shirt was the least sexy of all the new shirts I bought. But I was wearing it because of all the new shirts, it has the best, softest fabric and moves the easiest for dancing. So I knew the shirt wasn't great. She suggested I unbutton one more button, but I objected, saying I have acne and scars on my chest and that it's my one insecurity. She understood. She then wrapped her arm around my shoulders and we started walking around the venue. She would stop at certain points to let me look for girls and point out any that I liked.

Eventually we come across the other girl I mentioned. The wing girl points her out and offers advice: She's standing in the middle of her group of girls and isn't being touchy at all with the guy next to her. She's single and available. Wait for two instances of eye contact, then approach. Use a cheesy pickup line. I did everything but the cheesy pickup line haha. She actually looked familiar so my opener was asking if she was a girl named Clair that I had met at the same venue a month ago. Nope. Different girl. So the conversation began. She was hooked, but ever so slightly. The conversation went on and that's when she revealed she's a student, about to leave for the night because she has to get up at the crack of dawn the next day to begin her drive back to Minneapolis now that the semester is over. Wonderful.

So an interesting night with interesting experiences. I'm not sure if I'll have time today to day game. Maybe next weekend I'll not go out Saturday so I can get up early on Sunday to make sure I have time to day game. We will see!

 

[ElderPrice]

4/21/19 Good progress. New experience. Could have gotten laid, but very rough logistics.

Same club as last Saturday. Going into the night, my only goal was to try and push the envelope as far as new experiences go. Actually if I had a specific goal, I figured it would be that in addition to opening people, I would try harder to close, such as getting contact info (from friend candidates, for lack of a better term) to meet again at a later time. You know, to build actual friendships. Nothing to report on this front but I instead made progress in other avenues.

When the night began, on the dance floor a girl and I made legit eye contact. She had a very cute face. The rest of her was nothing special, but good enough for me. And she was there only with a couple female friends. Cool, the game is on. I ask her to dance, we dance, then we begin conversing. She was fully hooked and definitely interested in something happening. There was plenty of flirting, sexual conversation topics, an escalation of touching, and plenty of verbal IOIs/cues from her. Such as "I don't like it over here by the dance floor, let's go somewhere less crowded." When we walked, she took my hand immediately. When a friend of hers tried to pull her away from me, she'd push her away and convince her she was fine. So this was a legit opportunity. Then come the logistics part of the conversation. I live about 40 minutes from the venue and live with my parents. Turns out she's visiting from out of town for the holiday. She's staying with a friend in town this night, then is starting a drive at 6:30am the next morning to drive to her rural hometown a couple hours away. Wonderful. During this set she's also tossing in resistance but I can tell it's weak. So, while my brain was going a million miles an hour trying to plot a solution to this, I decided in the meantime to see if I can just keep building tension and keep smashing through the resistance. So hopefully she could "offer" a pathway. Also, figuring my odds of going the distance were rough, I also wanted to take this opportunity to see how much I can get the girl turned on. One area of game that has always fascinated me has been the idea of getting the girl REALLY into you before really beginning the escalation process. Or in other words, gaming a girl in a way where she's so ready to go, you help yourself avoid heavy LMR, or logistical issues, or cockblocking friends, or stuff like that in the first place. So here I wanted to just test how far my charming powers could take me with this girl and see how easy this girl could possibly make it for me.

Anyway, during this interaction, as I was building tension and working through resistance, another 'new experience' happened for me. As we were talking in the back of the bar, she was giving me eyes like she badly wanted a kiss. But anytime I'd make a slight indication it was coming, she'd playfully back away, like "nope, ain't happening stud. I don't do that " if that makes sense haha. I took it as 'keep trying guy' and I did, and she wasn't running away! haha. And sort of like what I was just describing, I enjoy the game of seeing if I can make HER kiss ME. So I figured alright, let's try to see what other tricks I have up my sleeve. We're on the conversation topic of kissing, and behind us I spot a group of 3 cute girls. They look like they're actually having a good time and are open to meeting people. Okay what the heck. Let's try pre-selection. So I say to my target, "tell you what, those girls look cool. I bet I can get 2 of them to do a 3-way kiss with me. If I succeed, I win a kiss from you!" She says heck yeah, you have a deal. I approach the girls, and straight up ask them to do it. Turns out they're all cousins so they were weirded out at kissing each other, but they appreciated my boldness. I asked for a compromise: a kiss on the cheek from each of them. They all did it and I went back to my target. She was impressed but I didn't achieve the initial goal so I wouldn't get a kiss. She however gave a kiss on the cheek. When I turned a few minutes late she gave a kiss on the other cheek.

Not too long later, her friends came up looking for her and they were leaving for the night. And that was that. The three girls that kissed me on the cheek I tried opening multiple times later throughout the night, and they were cool but they just weren't interested in anything more.

So good, new experiences. And a good almost-lay experience to learn from. In retrospect, for if (when) this happens again, here's what I think I'd try:
- Try pulling to my car. The thought crossed my mind this time, but it just had an odd feeling to it. Next time I should consciously ignore that feeling and just try going for it.
- Try moving her at least somewhere outside the venue. The idea being if I can get her outside the venue, then I could try moving her a little further, then I could try moving to my car, etc.
- Get phone number before she leaves. It's a hail mary, but it at least gives the chance that she'll text me later that night inviting me over.

A fun night! Looking forward to pushing further next weekend!

 

[ElderPrice]

5/8/19 Got a few dates, nothing happened. Not sure where they stand ATM.

Haven't posted in a bit mainly because I haven't had much news to report. The main thing that happened is that this past weekend I had 3 dates... my first dates since January.

Let me refer to the previous weeks as Week 1, Week 2, and the current week as Week 3 for simplicity.

Basically I met each of these three girls Week 1 at my usual dance nights. My attitude shift of "giving" rather than "taking" must really be making a difference because these girls were interested all the way up to their dates. It was incredibly refreshing to see ridiculously simple signs of interest that I just rarely see, and haven't seen in a long time. Signs like: actually answering texts, actually wanting to chat and joke around, not flaking, etc. Here's how all the dates went:

Girl 1: This was a lunch/coffee date. We seemed to have a good rapport and getting each other's humor over text leading up to the date. But during the date, it felt like we just weren't clicking. She was missing that I was joking around with a lot of things I said and she didn't seem particularly interested in being there the second we met outside the front door. An hour in she claimed she got an unexpected work call and had to go take care of it immediately. I don't think I did much wrong on my end. She was just cold and off from the get go. I haven't bothered texting her since. I'm curious to see if she texts me after going silent on her for a week or two, but other than that I've moved on. This one is a shame because she was the youngest and most attractive of these three girls.

Girl 2: Evening coffee date. This girl and I were CLICKING, both over text and in person. Roasting back and forth type of thing. But during the date she just wouldn't turn on. She just wasn't there to fuck. We met at 8, and she legitimately had planned to leave by 10 so she could finish a homework assignment due at midnight. We've actually texted a little since the date which NEVER happens, leading me to believe she may actually be interested in a second date. We'll have to wait and see. I haven't heard from her in 2 days so naturally the needy/desperate part of my brain is freaking out thinking she's a goner hahaha. But I just keep reminding myself to be patient, and I have plans to hit the clubs this weekend so I'll definitely be meeting more girls soon regardless.

Girl 3: One of the warmest leads I've ever come across, but of course with my luck this chick is loaded with more baggage than an airport carousel. I can summarize it all this way: For our date she wanted to surprise me. She offered to pick me up then drive us to the location. She requested to dress nice. We drove to a hotel, with the plan being to watch the sunset on the rooftop bar, have dinner downstairs at the hotel restaurant, then do a little bar hopping to explore the city. We did all that then explored a really fancy hotel to end the 6-hour night out together. Now when anyone hears this, they would call this a date. Well this girl didn't quite get that so in her mind this was more of a hangout. Turns out she's FRESH out of a marriage (I don't even know if the ink is dry yet) and according to her she's really, really not ready for anything physical/sexual yet. The way she described it to me, she made it sound like 'I really just want to do all these cool things that I couldn't do with my lame husband...' Despite this pretty romantic night out, despite being another girl where we both REALLY clicked incredibly well, and despite me successfully convincing her to cuddle up against me when we were sitting on a sofa...... she recoiled in a snap when I went to kiss her on a cheek goodnight. This wasn't like a kid with a boner trying to get some. I was legitimately thanking her for a great night and bidding her farewell. A goodbye peck on the cheek. Like an adult. But she wouldn't even have that.

Just horrible, horrible luck. Basically haven't heard from her since, outside of a couple awkward apology/explanation texts the next day. Since we clicked so well and since I indicated I'm totally cool being friends, I'd be shocked if I never heard from her again. We'll see.

My own personal analysis is that I don't know what I could have done differently on these dates for them to have ended differently. Because of the growth I've undergone in the months since my last date, I definitely felt more calm, more confident, more playful, and more at ease than I ever have before on a date. The conversations went sexual, I always used chase framing, and I deep dove as best I could to legitimately get to know them. If I had to take a guess at what's wrong (assuming something is indeed wrong and this just isn't a tiny sample size), my guess would be that I must be getting dumped into the boyfriend zone by all these girls and they must be doing it before the date. Because they just don't show up to the dates horny and wanting sex.

Hopefully Girl 2 turns into something. We'll see. To finish on a positive note, I finally got a date for the first time in 3-4 months and it ended up being 3 dates with 3 different girls in 1 weekend

 

[ElderPrice]

5/14/19 Not much of a follow up, but some good things from this past weekend.

To follow up on the previous girls, I texted Girl 1 asking if she had a great mother's day. No response. She's definitely a goner. Girl 2 has been responding to my texts, but she's way colder than before our date. Now she's in the 'short responses with no follow up questions' territory. I'm going to to quiet on her and see if that reverses.

Girl 3 I also texted asking about her mother's day weekend, and she responded with the same strong interest as before. She said she's been really busy at work the last week and would really like to see me at dance night this week. I can't this week because I have something else going on. We're both planning on going next week. Who knows if this has any romantic/sexual legs left or if it's just friends now, but either way I'm glad she's still interested in something. She's very cool and definitely worth keeping around in some capacity.

Over the weekend I picked up another number from a girl who again, as of this point, is very into me. Responds to texts, is excited for our date, the whole shebang. I still need to arrange the date but I figure I'll see her Saturday.

The other new item that happened to me was when I hit the club over the weekend I had my first make out. I had never went for it before because honestly it feels stupid to me. It doesn't feel like an accomplishment. Well on this night I spotted a girl that was just super cute and she was also very into me. We were close and primed to kiss and I just figured 'what the hell let's see what happens.' And it happened. Easily. I got her number but I don't know how interested I am in arranging a date. She hasn't texted me since (for whatever that's worth) and while she was super cute, she was also pretty damn overweight.

Oh, I also tried a little day game this weekend. I had a bunch of errands to run so I was out and about for a few hours. Ended up opening 4-5 girls but none of them were close to interested.

Onward to next weekend!

 

[ThePhoenix]

Hey EP,

Good to hear thereʼs progress.

A few thoughts on your last few entries:

• Kissing. Iʼd stay away from it entirely at least until sex is imminent. Some guys seem to have some luck with it, but to me it seems like it shows your cards and defuses tension too much. The last girl I had over and wound up sleeping with, I hadnʼt kissed at all until we were making out, at which point she went for a kiss first.
  
  
• You think the girl is not “horny and wanting sex”. Itʼs confusing, because they donʼt always act like it. Remember, women are socialized to appear asexual. A good policy is, donʼt concern yourself over whether she seems to want sex; instead, as long as sheʼs co‑operating, just assume that she does. The women Iʼve had most sexually open to me, so far have generally not shown much interest in sex before the fact. Until, at some point back home when escalating, suddenly she becomes really horny. Itʼs like a switch!!  lol
  
  So, take a pot shot and invite her home on some innocuous excuse. And if you get her home, you can pretty much assume she knows what that means. You have nothing to lose, because:
  
  
• As I think youʼre starting to see for yourself, when the 1st date doesnʼt lead to sex, the 2nd date rarely ever happens. You can see that all over the boards, too. Goes back to the “Sexy Son Hypothesis” — while science hasnʼt proven it conclusively, there is significant evidence towards it, and my and othersʼ experiences with women seem to agree: women are innately attracted to men who get lots of sex with multiple women, because it may increase the womanʼs second-degree reproductive success. If it takes you more than one date to get laid, youʼre not one of those men. Dead simple, when you think about it that way. (Looking at women and sex in evolutionary terms has improved my game considerably.)
  
  
• Women who are taken, drop the boyfriend line, etc. They expect weak men who donʼt “get it” to give up when confronted with that. But science has shown that women are programmed to go for two completely different types of men — the type they are looking to shack up with is typically not the type they are (unconsciously) looking to get impregnated by. That goes against just about everything society has taught you about women and dating, but again, Iʼve noticed considerable improvement from looking at things in these terms. Monogamy is basically a sham, and if you see it as such, you do better, at least in my observations so far.
  
  So, for instance, the girl from night game who was engaged. She may still have made herself sexually available to the right kind of man. But if so sheʼd be extremely discreet about it and also would be likely to be very selective about the type sheʼd do it with. She may have been testing you early on. All it takes is the slightest hint that you think sheʼs definitely not available to you because sheʼs taken, and then youʼre “not that type of man.” Hint: itʼs a good type of man to be! Here, you need lover frame to the max. Iʼve been sized up by married women before, albeit I expect Iʼll need a fair bit more experience before Iʼm likely to bed one.
  
  Of course, women may also drop the boyfriend line to get rid of you. Doesnʼt hurt to try sidestepping it, just to see if it works, though. It may even change her mind!
  
  
• The girl who planned out the fancy date sequence. All that stuff seems way too “boyfriendy”. I guess maybe sheʼs trying to fill the emotional void from the divorce. In any case, I have to suspect you may have been better to just take charge and set up a more informal date, with intent to pull home, and just try to pull it off. Donʼt let her derail it — believe me, women have no idea how to seduce themselves!!
  
  
• Good you tried day game, too. Itʼs hit-and-miss, but the hits can be very good. Iʼd suggest that at first you always propose a meet‑up, even if she doesnʼt seem interested. Reason is, she may well not be interested, but it could also be that youʼre expecting more signs of interest than many women ever give in this situation. Itʼs a low‑key setting, so itʼs pretty common for women to not act overly excited or friendly. Over time, youʼll get a better sense of when itʼs not worth bothering, but when youʼre just learning, youʼre likely to give up too easily, so just make it a policy to always try, unless of course she overtly blows you off.
  
  
• Itʼs cool to do day game concomitant to running errands, but if you donʼt have errands to do, donʼt be afraid to go out and do it anyway! Iʼve gotten laid by going to the mall with the singular objective of meeting women there!  LOL. (For some reason, I actually find it much easier to overcome the approach anxiety when I go out for the day specifically to talk to girls, whereas I can rarely push myself to approach girls I see incidentally, but lucky for you, you donʼt seem to have such a problem.)

Most of the above points come down to having a little more masculine aggression. I know itʼs a hard thing to adapt to in our ultra‑PC, wussbag society, especially for us introverted guys, but we need to be a little bolder, because thatʼs exactly what women are attracted to!

Cheers,
Phoenix

 

[ElderPrice]

Hey EP,

Good to hear thereʼs progress.

A few thoughts on your last few entries:

• 
  1 Kissing. Iʼd stay away from it entirely at least until sex is imminent. Some guys seem to have some luck with it, but to me it seems like it shows your cards and defuses tension too much. The last girl I had over and wound up sleeping with, I hadnʼt kissed at all until we were making out, at which point she went for a kiss first.
  
  
  2 You think the girl is not “horny and wanting sex”. Itʼs confusing, because they donʼt always act like it. Remember, women are socialized to appear asexual. A good policy is, donʼt concern yourself over whether she seems to want sex; instead, as long as sheʼs co‑operating, just assume that she does. The women Iʼve had most sexually open to me, so far have generally not shown much interest in sex before the fact. Until, at some point back home when escalating, suddenly she becomes really horny. Itʼs like a switch!!  lol
  
  So, take a pot shot and invite her home on some innocuous excuse. And if you get her home, you can pretty much assume she knows what that means. You have nothing to lose, because:
  
  
  3 As I think youʼre starting to see for yourself, when the 1st date doesnʼt lead to sex, the 2nd date rarely ever happens. You can see that all over the boards, too. Goes back to the “Sexy Son Hypothesis” — while science hasnʼt proven it conclusively, there is significant evidence towards it, and my and othersʼ experiences with women seem to agree: women are innately attracted to men who get lots of sex with multiple women, because it may increase the womanʼs second-degree reproductive success. If it takes you more than one date to get laid, youʼre not one of those men. Dead simple, when you think about it that way. (Looking at women and sex in evolutionary terms has improved my game considerably.)
  
  
  4 Women who are taken, drop the boyfriend line, etc. They expect weak men who donʼt “get it” to give up when confronted with that. But science has shown that women are programmed to go for two completely different types of men — the type they are looking to shack up with is typically not the type they are (unconsciously) looking to get impregnated by. That goes against just about everything society has taught you about women and dating, but again, Iʼve noticed considerable improvement from looking at things in these terms. Monogamy is basically a sham, and if you see it as such, you do better, at least in my observations so far.
  
  So, for instance, the girl from night game who was engaged. She may still have made herself sexually available to the right kind of man. But if so sheʼd be extremely discreet about it and also would be likely to be very selective about the type sheʼd do it with. She may have been testing you early on. All it takes is the slightest hint that you think sheʼs definitely not available to you because sheʼs taken, and then youʼre “not that type of man.” Hint: itʼs a good type of man to be! Here, you need lover frame to the max. Iʼve been sized up by married women before, albeit I expect Iʼll need a fair bit more experience before Iʼm likely to bed one.
  
  Of course, women may also drop the boyfriend line to get rid of you. Doesnʼt hurt to try sidestepping it, just to see if it works, though. It may even change her mind!
  
  
  5 The girl who planned out the fancy date sequence. All that stuff seems way too “boyfriendy”. I guess maybe sheʼs trying to fill the emotional void from the divorce. In any case, I have to suspect you may have been better to just take charge and set up a more informal date, with intent to pull home, and just try to pull it off. Donʼt let her derail it — believe me, women have no idea how to seduce themselves!!
  
  
  6 Good you tried day game, too. Itʼs hit-and-miss, but the hits can be very good. Iʼd suggest that at first you always propose a meet‑up, even if she doesnʼt seem interested. Reason is, she may well not be interested, but it could also be that youʼre expecting more signs of interest than many women ever give in this situation. Itʼs a low‑key setting, so itʼs pretty common for women to not act overly excited or friendly. Over time, youʼll get a better sense of when itʼs not worth bothering, but when youʼre just learning, youʼre likely to give up too easily, so just make it a policy to always try, unless of course she overtly blows you off.
  
  
  7 Itʼs cool to do day game concomitant to running errands, but if you donʼt have errands to do, donʼt be afraid to go out and do it anyway! Iʼve gotten laid by going to the mall with the singular objective of meeting women there!  LOL. (For some reason, I actually find it much easier to overcome the approach anxiety when I go out for the day specifically to talk to girls, whereas I can rarely push myself to approach girls I see incidentally, but lucky for you, you donʼt seem to have such a problem.)

Most of the above points come down to having a little more masculine aggression. I know itʼs a hard thing to adapt to in our ultra‑PC, wussbag society, especially for us introverted guys, but we need to be a little bolder, because thatʼs exactly what women are attracted to!

Cheers,
Phoenix

Thanks for the feedback my man! I generally know and agree with all the tips you pointed out, but just felt like ignoring a lot of them this go round for the reference points, and to see if to my surprise deviating from the best practices scripts actually works for me or not. Won't know unless I try. Anyway, let me respond to each point to provide some context for where my thinking was at for these experiences.

1. Agreed. I don't go for kisses on dates anymore. Is this comment referring to the failed kiss on the cheek or the make out at the club? If the former, I was just trying to do a goodbye peck on the cheek. Nothing sexual or tension breaking. I probably wasn't super smooth with it, but this was NOT a kiss like I was trying to score. If referring to the club make out, yeah that was just for fun and for a reference point. And it was straight to the makeout. It didn't seem to hinder anything afterward, meaning she didn't seem like she cooled down and lost interest afterward.

2. I assume this is referring to the recent dates I mentioned. Yeah I don't know what to say here that's different from what I've mentioned before. Girls 1 and 2 just weren't showing any standard signs of interest - not during the date. Before the dates they were CLEARLY interested over text, but during the dates they showed little signs of life. And I've tried inviting girls (to their) home with whatever excuse. It never works. They're never ready. They strongly resist. My guess is either I'm not connecting or building enough trust during the hour/hour and a half date or I'm being immediately sent to the boyfriend zone. Also remember I'm working with terrible logistics here. I still live with my parents, so it's basically the girl's place or bust. I should be able to move out soon, but I've been having a hard time finding a roommate.

3. Agreed. I've seen this concept over and over so I know it's true.

4. I know this as well. I almost always directly call BS to a girl or roll my eyes to a girl when she drops the boyfriend line (usually because I meet her when she's out and there is no boyfriend with her...). Yeah maybe I could make something happen with all these engaged/taken girls, but my biggest problem is my logistics. Can't really invite myself back to HER place when she's living with the fiance or boyfriend!

5. Definitely that's the case. This girl is just a big reference point for me. This is the first time I've met a cute girl so into me and who knew of great places around town to check out (something I'm pretty bad at). So this one is definitely in the case of "okay let her do her thing and we'll see what happens. If nothing, then she'd make an EXCELLENT friend. So win-win for me." The only adjustment I made, and I told her this directly when she was sending her next-day apology texts, was that I'm not going to let her take up another Friday/Saturday night if she's not interested in getting physical/sexual. If she wants to be friends, then we can be friends during friend times of day. Friday and Saturday nights are my times to spend with or meet girls who actually want to get physical with me Again, I told her this directly, so I tried to pop the "boyfriend" bubble. This is just a personal experiment that I'll take a week at a time to see if this girl in particular turns into a sexual partner or just a friend. This is NOT to see what works and what doesn't. I've read the articles here over and over. I know the correct process and I know this isn't it.

6. Ah, good catch! I should have specified what I meant by "not interested." What I meant was, none of the girls hooked. Even for just a conversation. Basically blew off. Next time I get a hook I'll definitely go straight for an instant date or phone number.

7. I've been meaning for a while to try exactly this, but haven't had time lately. One of these weekends I want to walk around a big mall here for at least 2 hours and see what I can do.

Hey don't kid yourself, I get pretty bad AA during day game. It's actually just from social pressure (I think that's what Chase calls it here) - you know, where if you open a girl at a quiet grocery store or something and you can see and feel all the 20 people in the vicinity lock theirs eyes on you, like "Who dare breaks the silence?!? That's against the rules and norms!!" Hey I'd trade in a lot of my approaching skill for help or luck getting sex because there's definitely a LOT that I just don't get to reach that objective!

Regarding being bolder - yeah that sounds true to me. I'm getting there. Painfully slowly, but I'm getting there. I'll try and be bold with this new girl I've been texting. Gonna try just inviting myself over to her place for the first date. Not a long term candidate anyway. Thanks again Phoenix! You rock!

 

[ThePhoenix]

Is this comment referring to the failed kiss on the cheek or the make out at the club?

More of a general pattern. Those two, plus also the one where you were trying to win a kiss from (really blunt) preselection.

I guess on some level, when youʼre coming from such limited experience, just getting public makeouts and kisses can be a confidence boost, but do remember that in the bigger picture these things carry a high risk of backfiring, so itʼs not something you want to habituate, at least until you have more end‑game success.

If the former, I was just trying to do a goodbye peck on the cheek. Nothing sexual or tension breaking. I probably wasnʼt super smooth with it, but this was NOT a kiss like I was trying to score.

If youʼre in a culture (parts of Europe, for instance) where itʼs normal for people to kiss outside romantic or familial relationships, it should be fine. Otherwise, Iʼd still avoid it. I think itʼs possible to get away with, but only with an extremely strong internal frame that I donʼt think either of us have at this point.

Girls 1 and 2 just werenʼt showing any standard signs of interest — not during the date. Before the dates they were CLEARLY interested over text, but during the dates they showed little signs of life. And Iʼve tried inviting girls (to their) home with whatever excuse. It never works. Theyʼre never ready. They strongly resist.

I wish I could help more here, but thatʼs one thing I havenʼt had much of a problem with, so I donʼt really know what Iʼve been doing right, other than get her to do most of the talking. In most cases this century where I did get a date but didnʼt get the girl home, itʼs because plain and simple I didnʼt try but in hindsight probably should have. Or in some cases logistics problems.

“Standard signs of interest” are often really subtle, to the point youʼre liable to miss them completely unless really well calibrated — thus the advice to always try. The last girl I got home, and slept with, on the date was being pretty deadpan. Not unfriendly, but not even remotely enthusiastic. Like she was just chatting with a co-worker to blow time. Almost bored. Certainly not sexual.

With that said, you make it sound like the girl very obviously totally doesnʼt want to be there. If itʼs really that bad, there must be some sticking point there. Iʼd recommend that as soon as you finish an interaction, particularly one that doesnʼt go well, record detailed voice notes while itʼs fresh in your memory, including whatever you can remember about body language as well as conversation; I usually always do this. A detailed field report might reveal your issue.

You may also want to think about what happened before the date. I had a date once where the girl was being difficult, and in hindsight it was dead before it started, because I had failed shit tests leading up to the date. I failed to make the date happen on my terms. Are you communicating a lot prior to the date, or tolerating a lot of reschedules, or her changing the venue, or conveying even the slightest insecurity as to whether the date is “still on”, or accepting the “I will let you know when Iʼm free” frame? Any of those things could kill her mood before she even shows up.

Also, I would consider trying to invite yourself to her place to be a last resort.

Also remember Iʼm working with terrible logistics here. I still live with my parents, so itʼs basically the girlʼs place or bust.

Well, 30+ with parents is not ideal. Certainly, it would be a non-starter if your aim was to be the man who provides for a womanʼs family. But since thatʼs very importantly not what youʼre trying to appeal to, itʼs probably not as big a deal as you believe it is. Remember, women donʼt apply the same standards when judging fuckboys. Women expect all kinds of things that go out the window when they meet a fuckboy!

I have a buddy who was living with his mom into his 30s, and he didnʼt have much trouble getting girls home. Theyʼd just say “hi” to mom briefly and then disappear into his room. It actually worked out to his benefit in some regards. All his shit was in there: TV, stereo, couch, bed, computer, video games, hobby projects; made the perfect excuse to get girls near the bed. He even told me one time, “my room is a trap”, lol! He was still living at home when he accidentally became a father.

Now, in all fairness, he was fairly good with girls since his teens, and that probably did help him. And of course, he did try to get to the girlʼs place when convenient — but if that wasnʼt going to happen, he didnʼt let it stop him. Now, his mom was pretty chill. I donʼt know your situation; if youʼve got religious zealot, very nosy, and/or hideously slobby parents, it could be harder.

In my modest experience thus far, pulling to a girlʼs place is possible but depends on a lot of luck, pre‑planning and creativity on your part; the margin for error is way smaller. Unless the situation at home is truly terrible, Iʼd say the risk of failing to pull to her place is worse than the risk of looking like a loser living at home. So Iʼve read, these days adults are living with parents longer than ever, anyway.

If the situation is in some way super-problematic, could you talk to your parents to smooth over the kinks? I know if I had a son living at home, Iʼd certainly try not to get in the way of him getting laid!!  LOL

For a long time, I worried about all kinds of stuff in my home environment, even to the point of kicking out a roomie to reduce clutter. And bought a fancy dining room set... only to ironically have a bunch of shit piled up on it and not even use it when I finally got a girl naked in here, lol. Itʼs only now that Iʼve started to get girls home that itʼs begun to really dawn on me just how insignificant shit like this is. Same buddy even tried to tell me girls wouldnʼt really care, but I didnʼt get it.

Women are the biggest mindfuck on the planet. Weʼve been taught from birth that everything about getting sex is difficult. That the sun and the moon and the stars all have to line up. That we have to cover all bases down to a tee. The notion that women really just want a dick up their pussy is so alien that we canʼt accept it even when we try to. And they just let us live in that matrix, the blue pillers serving them while the red pillers satisfy them.

This is the first time Iʼve met a cute girl so into me and who knew of great places around town to check out (something Iʼm pretty bad at).

Itʼs in the past, but FWIW, Iʼd have prioritized this differently. Youʼre looking at “cute girl into you” plus “girl with venue intel”. If you try to get the latter before the former, you lose the former — something Iʼd personally have considered more important (being that you could get the latter just as easily from a guy, or an ugly girl). OTOH, had you tried to get the former first (i.e., sleep with her) and then the latter, chances are that youʼd either (i) fail at the former but quite possibly still be able to get the latter, or (ii) succeed at the former and almost certainly be able to get the latter. 

What I meant was, none of the girls hooked. Even for just a conversation. Basically blew off.

It happens sometimes. If this continues all the time, you either may be too clunky or you may be picking them badly. Clunky will probably improve with practice, but some detailed FRs could help, too.

You may want to try different situations. For instance, Iʼve generally had a lot more trouble with girls walking the mall corridors as opposed to girls browsing in stores.

You can also hit on store employees. Double-edged sword, because on one hand, theyʼre almost guaranteed to “hook”, but on the other hand, they get hit on more, so closing may be harder. I did get a date with a store employee, and Iʼd only hit on a handful, so itʼs worth trying. (Ironically, at first I could only drive myself to approach employees, not customers, but these days I tend to be more reluctant to hit on employees since I donʼt want to spoil the venue, so I usually hit on customers... lol.)

Painfully slowly ...

I can relate! Good news is, the curve isnʼt linear; as you discover just what you can get away with, it does accelerate.

Phoenix

 

[ElderPrice]

Girls 1 and 2 just werenʼt showing any standard signs of interest — not during the date. Before the dates they were CLEARLY interested over text, but during the dates they showed little signs of life. And Iʼve tried inviting girls (to their) home with whatever excuse. It never works. Theyʼre never ready. They strongly resist.

I wish I could help more here, but thatʼs one thing I havenʼt had much of a problem with, so I donʼt really know what Iʼve been doing right, other than get her to do most of the talking. In most cases this century where I did get a date but didnʼt get the girl home, itʼs because plain and simple I didnʼt try but in hindsight probably should have. Or in some cases logistics problems.

“Standard signs of interest” are often really subtle, to the point youʼre liable to miss them completely unless really well calibrated — thus the advice to always try. The last girl I got home, and slept with, on the date was being pretty deadpan. Not unfriendly, but not even remotely enthusiastic. Like she was just chatting with a co-worker to blow time. Almost bored. Certainly not sexual.

With that said, you make it sound like the girl very obviously totally doesnʼt want to be there. If itʼs really that bad, there must be some sticking point there. Iʼd recommend that as soon as you finish an interaction, particularly one that doesnʼt go well, record detailed voice notes while itʼs fresh in your memory, including whatever you can remember about body language as well as conversation; I usually always do this. A detailed field report might reveal your issue.

You may also want to think about what happened before the date. I had a date once where the girl was being difficult, and in hindsight it was dead before it started, because I had failed shit tests leading up to the date. I failed to make the date happen on my terms. Are you communicating a lot prior to the date, or tolerating a lot of reschedules, or her changing the venue, or conveying even the slightest insecurity as to whether the date is “still on”, or accepting the “I will let you know when Iʼm free” frame? Any of those things could kill her mood before she even shows up.

Also, I would consider trying to invite yourself to her place to be a last resort.

Thank you again my friend! I agree with your points. I quoted just this part to provide some additional thoughts on just this part.

Regarding signs of interest, just to make sure we're on the same page, can you elaborate or provide examples of what you mean by 'subtle signs of interest'? There's an article or two on GC here that list some examples of signs of interest, and almost everything on the list are things I do not see on dates. IIRC I already referred to those articles in this thread, and made some posts about this very idea.

Regarding what goes on before and during dates, yeah I really try to follow the best practices to a T, and I think I do. Virtually every date has had very minimal communication before the date, essentially zero reschedules, essentially zero venue changes, and I do send a confirm text, but I do it exactly as the articles here say to do it (ie. texting something like "meet me by the entrance" as opposed to "hey are we still on tonight?"). As for during the dates, I almost always arrange for coffee/drinks, I deep dive and try have her talk as much as possible, try and set the right frames, and break the touch barrier (which is basically never reciprocated).

If I had to be my own coach and speculate, here is my best guess:
I think you may be on to something by thinking it might be something before the date. My guess is that basically every single girl I've met for a date has boyfriend zoned me even before the date. As in, when we met and swapped numbers, she decided right then and there based on that impression and interaction that I might be BF material, but not hook up material. I definitely can do a better job disqualifying myself as a BF when first meeting a girl, but I must admit it seems a little difficult based on how quick these interactions go. It's like I can get a date and number before the opportunity to answer 'what are you looking for' ever comes up. You know what I mean? Anyway, I think the next item for me to focus a lot of attention on is trying to subtly communicate immediately upon meeting that I'm not BF material.

Does this not possibly explain my incredible lack of success on dates? If a girl already BF-zoned me, then yeah it makes sense that she wouldn't show up on a coffee date with sex on the mind at all. It makes sense that she would be reserved the whole time. Maybe it also explains the rarity of second dates for me. Perhaps since I'm being vetted as a BF, the girl is always expecting an elaborate date, with multiple venues, romance, and cliche date stuff. Perhaps the second she sees I'm going with the 'coffee date and pull' date template, she gets offended by the incongruence and loses all interest. Does this sound remotely possible? Or am I just grasping for straws? LOL. It sounds like a strong possibility to me, but then again, I am a noob.

Thank you again Phoenix!

 

[Seppuku]

Hey EP,

Wow there's a lot to cover. Let me start by saying that everything Phoenix says is very much on point. All good advice.

Girl 3 was a clear time waster. She is clearly "not here to fuck". She just want to enjoy being pampered and dated around. She will try to make the party last as long as she can - without doing anything in exchange. The early signs of this behavior is when she is very directive about the kind of date she wants (it seems she was). Another way to view this is, she was the one leading all the time. Her recoil at a peck on the cheek is a huge No No. Your comment: "Now when anyone hears this, they would call this a date." Maybe according to Hollywood. But in the real world this type of date rarely leads anywhere. She will continue to waste your time into a dead end as long as you let her.

Girl 1 and Girl 2 looked like they expected something else, then got somewhat disappointed. As seducers, our experience of women psychology wants to say "you didn't lead to sex". My favorite quote from Chase is (more or less from memory):

Dating is a mating dance, and if it does not lead to mating, the male ends up dismissed as impotent

.
The last part to be read figuratively of course. It is worth meditating, and internalizing this. Fully agreed with Phoenix, "when the 1st date doesnʼt lead to sex, the 2nd date rarely ever happens" (well, once you are experienced getting first date sex, getting second date sex becomes easier. But not before).

About Girl 2. " She just wasn't there to fuck." How do you know that? I tell you something. Most of my dates do not know they're here to fuck when they come on a date with me. Yet, once I start to show them the way, they switch on!

About reading signs. Now I can read the signs of excitement she is sending, and some of them are extremely subtle. It can be something like, there was a good vibe and mood, and the next minute she goes silent. Or a slight change in her breathing pattern. Or a very subtle finger stroke. But it took me 5 years of regular dating to reach there. But I also had cases where I did not see any sign of interest.

There was a girl with whom we had a dull lunch first date, barely spoke, and she spent most of her time on her phone. What the fuck? But when the lunch was done, I decided to stick with her. Got a taxi, I got in with her (pretexting I'd go next to my own place). She got off at her home, I got off with her. She got inside the building, I followed her. She finally invited me to her home, and next we were on her bed. The point of the story here is, at no point did she seem to have any interest during the date, yet we ended in bed the same day.

Sometimes you just won't see the signs. Or sometimes there simply aren't any. Yet, if you choose to ignore and trust the process, you may have a good surprise. I would say at this stage, you should not worry about reading signs for now. Gain experience first. Like Chase says, do not chase for reactions. Ignore the unhelpful stuff, and just follow the script. If I'm right, that's what Phoenix did in his LR, and it worked to his own surprise.

What about the usual tension killers? Check these out. Are you doing any of that?

• Body language. Anything you do that shows that you are in awe with her body? Subtle facial expressions, "sneak peeks" at the goods...
• "White Knight" attitude, as in "she's the Princess and he is her serving White Knight". Gallantry. Hold the door. Etc...
• "Try hard" attitude. Typical are "trying to impress her". Or "trying to make her laugh".
• Chasing attitude.
• High Energy level. Which is another variant of "try hard"
• Always tending to her comfort.
• The kiss. Agreed with Phoenix here.

We talk about building comfort, and it's an important part of the process, but always accommodating her is not good too, such as systematically jumping in to fill all silences. Sexual tension involves a subtle mix of discomfort. For instance:

• If you feel her body language is cold, how about you put in your icy face, and let her win your smile?
• She says she has to leave at 10pm, how about you tell her you're due to meet your buddies at 9:30pm anyway?

Some of your comments:

And I've tried inviting girls (to their) home with whatever excuse. It never works. They're never ready. They strongly resist.

I would really need to know how you did that. If you ask for her approval, it will be random. It all depends on how was the vibe during the date. If I see the signs she is sold on me, yeah, I may go with "I suggest we go listen to some classical music". If I see a mixed case, or absence of clear signs, I may assume the sale happened, and just tell her "Let's go!" as if it was evident where we go. Or, like in the story above, I can decide to just stick with her and persist. All in all, I always do it in manner that I keep the leadership with me!

Perhaps since I'm being vetted as a BF, the girl is always expecting an elaborate date, with multiple venues, romance, and cliche date stuff. Perhaps the second she sees I'm going with the 'coffee date and pull' date template, she gets offended by the incongruence and loses all interest. Does this sound remotely possible?

It is possible. She views you as BF, and this is no a BF/GF like date, therefore disappointed. But the other alternative "Oh so you're really the BF type after all? Oh well..." is possible too. She hoped you would show more of your "sexy guy" side on the date, but gets disappointed that it's again the BF vibe. I would bet on the second. In fact, if I could see your date I would probably be able to tell immediately.

But let us give it the benefit of the doubt for now. Try your early BF disqualification hint and let's see.

 

[ElderPrice]

Thank you as always Seppuku! Hopefully my responses below can shed some light on this.

About Girl 2. " She just wasn't there to fuck." How do you know that? I tell you something. Most of my dates do not know they're here to fuck when they come on a date with me. Yet, once I start to show them the way, they switch on!

You're right. I don't know that.

There was a girl with whom we had a dull lunch first date, barely spoke, and she spent most of her time on her phone. What the fuck? But when the lunch was done, I decided to stick with her. Got a taxi, I got in with her (pretexting I'd go next to my own place). She got off at her home, I got off with her. She got inside the building, I followed her. She finally invited me to her home, and next we were on her bed. The point of the story here is, at no point did she seem to have any interest during the date, yet we ended in bed the same day.

Sometimes you just won't see the signs. Or sometimes there simply aren't any. Yet, if you choose to ignore and trust the process, you may have a good surprise. I would say at this stage, you should not worry about reading signs for now. Gain experience first. Like Chase says, do not chase for reactions. Ignore the unhelpful stuff, and just follow the script. If I'm right, that's what Phoenix did in his LR, and it worked to his own surprise.

I think I just don't get it. I've followed the script before and the pull just has never worked. I've tried it on dates that seemingly went well and I tried it on dates that weren't going anywhere. And it's not like I'm getting yes's then they change their mind on the way. Or I'm getting yes's then they throw up LMR while laying on the bed. They don't even think about it for a second. It's always "oh I don't do that on a first date," or "I'm not that kind of girl." I assume this supports the theory that my real screw up is happening before the pull.

What about the usual tension killers? Check these out. Are you doing any of that?

[1]Body language. Anything you do that shows that you are in awe with her body? Subtle facial expressions, "sneak peeks" at the goods...
[2]"White Knight" attitude, as in "she's the Princess and he is her serving White Knight". Gallantry. Hold the door. Etc...
[3]"Try hard" attitude. Typical are "trying to impress her". Or "trying to make her laugh".
[4]Chasing attitude.
[5]High Energy level. Which is another variant of "try hard"
[6]Always tending to her comfort.
[7]The kiss. Agreed with Phoenix here.[/list]

1. Nope. Maybe one compliment at the start if she looks like she spent a lot of time getting ready, but other than that, no.
2. I'll hold the door and observe basic manners, but nothing in addition to that. I don't mind paying if all she gets is a $3 coffee or something, but if we're getting a meal or expensive drinks, I don't pay. I suggest we split. A few times I've commanded her to pay, in a playful manner. Something like 'Nope! I won the so and so bet we made earlier. That means you pay! ' I think it's worked each time.
3. Nope. The worst I'll say are facts about myself (this is one of the things I'm trying to work on - giving playful non-answers to her questions, rather than factual answers).
4. I try to frame it the other way around as best as I can, but I'm sure I look like I'm chasing to some degree.
5. No. Especially not these last few dates, since you gave me your initial advice in January/February. On all these new dates, I've been low energy, making sure to lean back, not in, and I've tried to show bordem as best as possible (when appropriate).
6. Uhhh if such a situation presented itself, I'd bet my inclination would be to make sure she's not uncomfortable... but I don't really see how I'd have done this on recent dates. We met up, ordered shit, sat down, talked, and left. No real opportunities for me to tend to her comfort that I'm aware of.
7. On all the other recent dates, I didn't go for any kind of kiss at all.

We talk about building comfort, and it's an important part of the process, but always accommodating her is not good too, such as systematically jumping in to fill all silences. Sexual tension involves a subtle mix of discomfort. For instance:

• If you feel her body language is cold, how about you put in your icy face, and let her win your smile?
• She says she has to leave at 10pm, how about you tell her you're due to meet your buddies at 9:30pm anyway?

Yeah I try to keep control as best as possible, but I'm just too green to be ready to address every unexpected thing she might throw at me. And based on how basically all my dates have gone, this means I'm going to be icy faced literally the entire time. Is that normal? Is it actually normal to go into every single first date planning and follow-throughing with being bored, icy, and barely interested the whole time? Sounds so negative and bitter lol.

Some of your comments:

And I've tried inviting girls (to their) home with whatever excuse. It never works. They're never ready. They strongly resist.

I would really need to know how you did that. If you ask for her approval, it will be random. It all depends on how was the vibe during the date. If I see the signs she is sold on me, yeah, I may go with "I suggest we go listen to some classical music". If I see a mixed case, or absence of clear signs, I may assume the sale happened, and just tell her "Let's go!" as if it was evident where we go. Or, like in the story above, I can decide to just stick with her and persist. All in all, I always do it in manner that I keep the leadership with me!

Well, again I'm pretty certain the girls have never been sold on me lol. But regardless, I've worded it just like Chase did in his articles. IE. If we were talking about a TV show earlier.. "I'm getting tired... What say we grab some food and head back to your place to watch some *TV show*?" Or... "Not sure what places have good dancing at this hour... What say we practice some dancing at your place? We'll have full control over the music and the drinks are cheap too."

I know you've said in other posts to basically take her hand and lead... but that's difficult since I live in a sprawling city where everyone drives. So since essentially every date I've been on has involved meeting a girl somewhere (the times I've offered to pick them up they've always declined), "taking her hand and leading" in this case means either:
1. Asking/convincing her to give me her address and we both will drive our cars back to her place.
2. Expecting her or me to leave our car at whatever establishment and letting the other person drive back to her place.

So doing the equivalent of taking her hand and leading her home (to her place) doesn't seem to work well. And I've tried picking date venues that are as close to her place as possible, but even then things are still far enough apart that it would be weird for one of us to leave our car. I have yet to date a girl that lived in an area where we could legitimately walk back to her place.

Thank you again Seppuku! I couldn't have made the progress I have without you!

 

[ThePhoenix]

If Iʼm right, thatʼs what Phoenix did in his LR, and it worked to his own surprise.

Yes, thereʼs only one sign of interest I remember: she wasnʼt trying to get away from me.  lol! I invited her home not because I had any idea that sheʼd come; I did it simply because I knew that if I didnʼt, Iʼd never see her again, anyway.

EP, some thoughts on some of your points:

They donʼt even think about it for a second. Itʼs always “oh I donʼt do that on a first date,” or “Iʼm not that kind of girl.”

This is a bit of a guess, but Iʼm thinking here that you might possibly need either (i) stronger frame, or (ii) better excuses. Of course the former would be a lot easier once you have better positive reference points. So maybe the latter could work. I know youʼre trying to use excuses.. the ones you list are not terrible, but I feel need a fairly strong frame and good compliance. Stronger excuses might work better for a beginner when sheʼs more on the fence and thereʼs more risk of ASD.

Iʼm lucky, because Iʼm working on creative projects that most people find interesting, so I usually drop some vague hints about it earlier in the date and then when I think itʼs time to pull, I suggest that she come over to look at it. This is quite innocuous and Iʼve so far never gotten ASD like this. In the surprise lay, I additionally made up a b.s. excuse involving some quick business I had to execute at home, after which point we could look at the projects.

Your non-verbals are also crucial here. If youʼre afraid or expect sheʼll refuse, sheʼs more likely to. (This is one of the biggest challenges in game, I think.) If you make it seem like a big deal, you may cause alarm bells.

And again, I have to think youʼre making it immensely harder trying to invite yourself to their place. At least try your home, and/or maybe some action in your car. Nothing to lose in trying.

I know youʼve said in other posts to basically take her hand and lead... but thatʼs difficult since I live in a sprawling city where everyone drives.

Sounds a bit tricky. Youʼll need to be creative. I almost wonder if you could pick her up instead, but not sure how to do that when she drives.. way outside my experience.

Actually, you could always pretend you donʼt drive or car is unavailable. I once set up a coffee date close to a girlʼs place, who lived on the other side of town, and took a train to get there. After, she drove me to the station, but there had been some hints dropped in both directions and I later realized had I been just slightly more brave, I likely couldʼve gotten her to take us to her place instead.

Iʼve also had a girl drive us to my place more than once. I try to pick date spots close to my place. Again, this is another reason to try to pull to your place in spite of your parents.

My guess is that basically every single girl Iʼve met for a date has boyfriend zoned me even before the date.

You may want to pay more attention to giving off sexual intent when you first meet. Iʼm not great at it myself, but some things that I think may have worked for me so far:

• I like to give a compliment on something thatʼs genetic — kind of like subtly suggesting, “if I knock you up Iʼm satisfied the kidʼll be beautiful.” The surprise lay, when I had first approached her, black girl, she had her hair in a simple natural style (they have a distinct hair texture thatʼs genetically part of them), so I complimented her hair. Had she had her hair in some fancy fake style, Iʼd have looked for something else to compliment.
  
  
• Have some edge to your attire. For instance, I may put on a bandana along with a dress shirt, for instance. And often wear red or pink.
  
  
• Use natural pheromones to your benefit. That same lay, I had some musk going on. So the science says, this will probably murder you with some girls and open up other girls to you, quite randomly, depending on her and your major histocompatibility complex on chromosome 6. Thereʼs a fitness advantage in offspring where this is dissimilar between parents, and women can detect this. If you roll with it, youʼll get an attraction boost (of the “impregnate me now!” kind, lol) in girls who happen to be MHC compatible, which in my opinion is probably worth the hit you take on the ones that arenʼt MHC compatible. (And as an added bonus, if you do happen to knock her up, the kid is likely to be healthier.)
  
  
• Have a desire to fuck her senseless, and be comfortable in that desire. Not to say to slobber all over her, but just be in the right state of mind and sheʼll feel it. A while back, in a store, I noticed a cute girl, and before I actually approached her, I fantasized about squeezing her tits while railing her right on the store floor as she gasped from orgasms. Then I actually went up to her and declared, “you have beautiful eyes.” She melted like butter in a sauna. (Too bad she turned out to be a wee bit too young, cuz I prolly couldʼve had her.) Itʼs also one of the reasons I hit on black women specifically — because Iʼm very attracted to them physically, and on some level I think they can tell this from extremely subtle signs Iʼm giving off that Iʼm not even aware of myself. Itʼs a bit counter-intuitive, but I suspect that as long as youʼre subtle, smooth, and unashamed of it, lust can actually work in your favour.

It could also come down to your recent “give vs. take” mentality. A “giver” could be construed as being the BF type. You may find a more useful mentality to be “taking what you donʼt deserve” vs. “taking what you do deserve.” Just a thought!

Phoenix

 

[Seppuku]

Thank you again Seppuku! I couldn't have made the progress I have without you!

You're welcome, but yet we haven't been able to debug your game.

And based on how basically all my dates have gone, this means I'm going to be icy faced literally the entire time. Is that normal? Is it actually normal to go into every single first date planning and follow-throughing with being bored, icy, and barely interested the whole time? Sounds so negative and bitter lol.

No it's not. Putting on an icy vibe is something you can pull off once in a while to put on some tension, and only for a short period of time (certainly not the whole date, and not every single date). But if this is what you are facing, it probably means that there is a big disconnect between what she was expecting when she accepted the date, and what she ultimately gets. What exactly were her expectations when she accepted? That is dependent on the underlying frame at the time you asked her out.

The underlying frame is what is implicitly understood and accepted by the two of you without being actually ever voiced out.

Both you and Phoenix may be up to something. You mentioned that she could actually be putting you in the BF box from the onset. And Phoenix had this pertinent remark:

You may want to pay more attention to giving off sexual intent when you first meet

.
It reminds me of the actual challenge to properly pick up a store staff or waitress. Initially the underlying frame (what is implicitly expected from both) is purely about the on-going business (the clothes in the store, the drink you want to order...) and in order to succeed, you need to kill this frame in the womb, and replace it by a sexual frame. Else, you won't get anywhere. That's the power of the frame! By contrast, when you meet a waitress or store staff through a dating app, it is all much easier, because the underlying frame (what is both implicitly accepted by both) is "dating app, therefore dating".

When you meet a girl at a dance night, the underlying frame (I think!) is you two are going to have a nice time in a socially acceptable way. Or something along these lines. Correct me if I'm wrong. You have to change that to a sexual frame from the get go or else you may be trapped in the initial frame.

Have a desire to fuck her senseless, and be comfortable in that desire. Not to say to slobber all over her, but just be in the right state of mind and sheʼll feel it.
...
I fantasized about squeezing her tits while railing her right on the store floor as she gasped from orgasms. Then I actually went up to her and declared, “you have beautiful eyes.” She melted like butter in a sauna.

Something like this is a good start. Has to be done from the get go! Or whatever you are comfortable doing instead, that will kill the "friendly" frame and replace it by a more sexual one - right away.

Here we may finally be up to something! It all fits together. I'll let you think about it and come up with ways you can engage the right frame from the get go.

 

[ThePhoenix]

When you meet a girl at a dance night, the underlying frame (I think!) is you two are going to have a nice time in a socially acceptable way. Or something along these lines.

Yes, I had the same feeling! I just couldn't visualize exactly how his approach went, so didn't think to comment on that element specifically.